As you can see, the 560SL is an improvement in just about every category. About the only complaint I can offer for the 560SL is the ugly bumpers and the fact that it's pretty heavy
WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A USED ONE:
450SL --camshaft wear. You MUST have the valve covers pulled and look for pitting on the camshaft lobes. Also check for cracks in lower rear control arm mountings of the front suspension. This doesn't apply to 380 or 560. 450SLs are also prone to vapor lock and overheating, especially mid 70s models. Avoid them. Best year? Maybe 1979 before the 1980 power drop.
380SL--check the cam chain. If it is a single row chain it MUST be converted to double-row. 1984 and later 380SLs have this already. So best buy is 1984 or 1985 380SL.
560SL -- again, the best of the SLs. Of course, check all service records and avoid cars that were abused, salvaged, or high mileage.
I bought this car for scrap and it was in pieces on the floor. I have put it back together but the Fuel injection and vacuum is giving me fits.Can I put a Carb on this and remove the FI? I know it has fairly low compression and I have a Turbo off my 5 cylinder MB Diesel. Can I put that on to give it some umph?
No I don't think any of those solutions is even remotely within the realm of possibility. You'll have to see it through and fix the FI. You'll need the Bosch fuel injection manual...it's either D-Jetronic or K Jetronic on a 450SL. These publications are available on eBay or through the dealer or on the Internet.
Rats!!!! It is the CIS Mechanical FI and I have replaced the Fuel Distributor. It Runs, but not well at all. Does that tell you if it is a D or K Jetronic?
Here's some good info for you. I think you have K if it is the CIS system. D means "druck" in German or pressure, and is an earlier primitive vacuum system, which was nonetheless quite clever. This is what the type 3 VW used in 1968.
It's really a very simple system. The calibration of the fuel distributor is critical however, and you can't do it yourself typically. CIS stands for continuous injection system, which in essence means that the fuel is continually being sent to the injectors. Usually the problems start to occur when the injectors get dirty after a long time and the fuel doesn't squirt (or atomize) well into the intake ports. Also, after a long time the diaphragms in the distributor get weak/worn out and don't supply the correct fuel pressure. The Bosch manual is excellent as an educational source and troubleshooting guide.
I really appreciate the info.and website. I will get the Bosch Manuel. I have the MB 107 service CD which is helpful on some things, But not the Injection system..I took the car to the MB Dealer and they said it was a "project" car and wouldn't work on it. It has been a challenge. I did the Engine and Tranny and they were in pieces in a box. The Body and Interior I had done, so now I am ready to Drive it.It will be my Cruisin and Weddings car!!! I'm taking those damn catalytic convertors off. As you know they are located under the Exhaust Manifolds in the engine bay. They put out the heat!!
Well unfortunately you got the worst year for the 450SL, so I'm not surprised you got it in a box. Those ill-placed catalytics were part of the problem with the car---they changed that arrangement soon after. So Benz saw the problem pretty fast.
You should put the catalytics further down stream, using an aftermarket set up. Without cats, which is of course illegal, you'll have a very noisy car as well as a polluter. You'll never pass smog tests without them.
I have been heavily searching for a couple months to find a 1979 450sl in good shape. This week I test drove a model that I had never heard of and can't find any information on. It has the euro headlights and the badge on the back says 480SL. I'm assuming this is a Euro model, but does anyone know anything about this car?
I guess my main "gripe" about the 450SL line in general is that it looks like a sports car but is really a "boulevardier" type of car. Driving it like a sports car is like dancing with a graceful hippo...it'll do it but it won't be pretty. And the gas mileage can hurt if you use the car a lot. Putting in $70 bucks worth of premium to go 250 miles might get old. But 20 miles a day, once a week, wouldn't be bad at all.
They are very sturdy cars, not very fast, but very comfy. If you had those gas pellets where you just add water to the gas tank, these cars can be very nice long distance, weekend cars.
For the price, they're hard to beat really, in spite of their shortcomings. I mean, compared to an $8,000 MGB, it's a joke how lame the British car really is in comparison to build quality.
You just have to remember to buy the very best one you can afford from the get-go. Never, EVER buy a fixer-upper needing serious amounts of work, no matter how tempting, no matter how cheap. It will eat you alive.
The best performing SL I have ever driven is an early 80's European model 280SL. You have wind it up kind of tight, though. I've heard the late 70's Euro models are the same, but can't say I've driven one.
Those are all Euro-spec, so you couldn't pass smog with one in California. You couldn't even register it here unless you resorted to some sort of trickery or unless the car had been converted to EPA and DOT specs. Most Californians will attempt to register these cars or Euro cars like it, in neighboring Nevada (state motto: "Yeah, you can do that here").
I have a 73 450SL. 170K. I have been putting about $1,000 per year into repairs and maintenance. The AC doesn't work and although it doesn't use much oil, it blows smoke when started. It runs well, but has started to miss pretty often. I've had it since '82. Put about $2k into the AC in the last 3 years. The shop I use only works on MB and has been repairing it since I got the car. The seats and dash are beginning to go. The shop is pretty good and works on a few SLs of the same vintage. Every time I take mind over there are a couple just like mind. Comments?
Depends on how much your willing to put into it. From your description it sounds like the valve guides and seals are worn in the heads, which causes oil to leak down into the cylinders. That's most likely the reason for the smoke on start up, but you won't notice a lot of oil use due to this. The only cure is to pull the heads and have them re-worked. On a 4.5L MB it's not a small job, and the "might as wells" usually run the cost up (like changing the timing chain and associated parts). Of course at 170K, it may turn out that the entire engine needs refreshing, big $$$. The missing could be due to tune up, but here again it could be something worse. You can get a dash cap or a new dash, you can get new seat upholstery from various aftermarket suppliers, and of course you can keep getting the A/C fixed forever (it will likely need constant repair). Basically this all adds up to $$$$. If I was attached to the car and the body and paint was in exceptional condition, I would consider keeping it for pleasure use only, but not as a daily driver.
the old V8 SLs tend to get needy as the miles pile up, and you are definitely in the needy stage of life here. They are very sturdy and well-built cars but of course their rather modest market value dictates that it is much wiser to go out and buy another one with lower miles and no problems rather than keep shoveling money into the one you have---presuming you really love these cars. You can find very sharp cars under $10,000 and you could not rehab your car for that.
The AC is a perennial problem and in a sense not worth fixing anymore---even when they were brand new, these systems did not work very well.
I think as long as you can limit yourself to $1000 a year, you might as well drive it occasionally and enjoy those warm summer days and nights....but correcting all the problems doesn't sound like a good idea, nor does restoration.
I have been attached, it was my uncle's car and I've known and driven it since it was new. The timing chain was replaced at around 100k and the heads were rebuilt, but i guess I didn't drive it enought to keep the seals from drying out. When I first got it I was real uncomfortable driving such a fancy car. I guess I'm afraid of the big failure, but I guess you just junk it. I doubt I would get much for it as it is. Yes, the AC was never very good and it isn't a sports car, but it sure is good looking. I wouldn't buy another. I only kept it because he left it to me.
My neighbors have a something SL (380 I think) and they let it run out of gas. They refilled it, but then it wouldn't start even though the engine cranked. Is there a simple culprit that could be fixed in 10 minutes, or is it a matter of finding the one wrong thing out of a hundred possibilities?
That's odd. I wonder if they have a weak fuel pump. They might "prime" the engine with some starter fluid through the air horn....if it doesn't fire with starting fluid, then it's an ignition malfunction most likely...if it starts with the fluid but won't keep running, there's a fuel pressure issue of some sort.
Something I just thought of... if they ran the tank dry, could the sludge at the bottom of the tank have clogged the filter shut? I'm assuming it does have a fuel filter somewhere.
Those things have an electric pump in the tank, right?
I don't think the pump is in the tank...that's a fairly new development in cars. 380SLs are old cars.
Fuel filter is a possibility but in messing with cars for decades I have never seen a completely plugged up fuel filter that wouldn't allow some fuel through to at least start the car. But sure, that's certainly possible...not probable but possible.
This is perhaps the MOST significant post I've read here. I've craved a 450 SL for ages for a weekend joy ride, but if the A/C is a perennial problem there's very little joy driving in the 110* AZ heat from May through September. Nice in the fall/winter/spring I suppose, but 5 months of "issues" I don't need.
Do the newer 500's chill better? We never had a complaint about my wife's 300E's A/C in ten years here.
I'm with fintail 100% on this---the 560SL is the only V8 type SL to have, because it's the SL where just about all the faults of the earlier cars were finally corrected. They get the best fuel mileage, handle the best (by far) and can easily out-accelerate any 350/380/450SL. What's not to like? The ugly bumpers? Well, aside from the earliest SLs, most have clunky bumpers anyway.
The only "downside" if you will of the 560SL is that it costs more to buy and will continue to depreciate, whereas the older V8 SLs have pretty much fully depreciated and are as cheap as they are going to get (which is pretty cheap).
Will they one day sell for as much as 280SLs and 190SLs? So far, after some 30+ years, they show no sign of doing so. They are so plentiful, and so expensive to make right, that this keeps their price down.
Anyone see the recent insurance/investment commercial, with the waitress shooing the kids away from her 190SL? Do they actually have a lot of value? I always thought it was a slow car wrapped in fast car styling. A classmate in high school got one from his dad, never did get it to run right.
I saw that commercial...I also thought the choice a bit odd. Prices for decent 190SLs range from $20,000 to $45,000 for some very sharp restored cars.
Ironically, it's very strange that one would even suggest that owning a 190SL is somehow a symbol of financial acuity. That's kind of funny. They should have shown her owning a 60s big block convertible muscle car, which in the last two years at least is probably the only type of old car which actually has outperformed the best stocks.
Yeah, the 190SLs had some dreadful Solex carburetors. Most smart people take them off and box 'em up, and use Webers.
190SLs are merely 190 sedans with convertible bodies bolted onto them. So it's grandma's engine in a show girl's dress (substitute appropriate masculine analogy---I'm not going there).
190Sls are charming in a way, and were meant to be the 300SLs little brother or sister or whatever, and priced and con-tented accordingly.
That's probably just as crude a car as a hemi Cuda.
Fact is, in today's fast and loose credit market, just about anybody with a credit card and a job can buy a very fancy car.
The idea that a $30,000 or $40,000 car suggests wealth falls rather flat these days...I'd say to make ME believe that commecial, I'd have to see the waitress in a SL600 or some such...or a new Porsche or something. But even then, I'm thinking "hmmm, so she drew $100K out of her IRA for a new car?"
The commercial just misses the mark for the real car buff...but for folks who think plastic Auburn speedsters and VW powered Bugattis seen in parades are "real" cars, well, then it might work to impress them that a waitress owns a 190SL.
Personally, I think she'd be emptying her tip jar every day into her mechanic's pocket.
The advertisers should read "The Millionaire Next Door", but a waitress driving a '98 Accord while managing a broad portfolio wouldn't make for much of a commercial.
I've got a 1984 380SL with a jammed wiper mechanism. Can someone advise how to remove the wiper arms so that I can remove the cowling to access the actuating mechanism?
I have just acquired a 1980 mercedes 450 sl from a family member who died. The car is a one owner all original museum quality car. It only has 6,000 original miles. I do not know anthing about these cars. A friend of mine said I should check to see if it is a matching no. car. Where do I find the vin. no. on the engine block? Does anyone have any idea what a car like this would be worth? Thanks
If it for an absolute fact has 6000 miles, it's a 'matching number car' - there hasn't been enough driving to result in any major changes. As for values it has exceedingly low miles, but 450SL's are not rare. You might find someone particularly interested. I saw one w/28k miles listed on cars.com at $25k, but that's asking price. I didn't find any sales on Ebay of any SLs near this mileage. Is it in great shape? Sometimes cars that are driven little receive little care - have the fluids, tires, etc. been routinely changed?
If the car is such a low mileage, you should have the original paperwork, and there will be a data card in the packet of manuals/books with relevant info.
Chassis and body info will be on a small plate on a brace in front of the radiator. Engine number will be on the engine itself. I don't know if the standard VIN format we have today existed in 1979. I think some later Mercedes will have a VIN plate in the drivers door jam (I think) or on the drivers side A-pillar...it was there on my W126 anyway.
"Matching numbers" isn't really important on a Mercedes though, especially on a non-rare model. Nobody has ever wanted to take one of these engines and use it in something else.
About value, condition and maintenance is everything. Colors can also have a slight impact on cars from this period.
I agree, "matching numbers" is of no consequence on a 450SL. Buyers of these cars don't care about that at all.
As for value, the low mileage has a plus and a minus factor...it should be worth more than normal book value, but you know, probably not that much more. Again, the "low miles" is something someone has to care about. Given that the car is rather commonly available, and was produced basically in only one version, the low mileage doesn't have the same appeal as it might on a Chevelle SS396 L78 for instance.
If the car were absolutely pristine and without fault (basically "like new") I would think $20,000 is really pushing it. If someone offered you $15K, I'd take it. If the tires and soft top are rotten (most likely), deduct accordingly.
Be careful about touting the low miles; unless you can prove it, you are responsible for that being an accurate statement and if the buyer finds out otherwise, you might be in legal jeopardy. You are not allowed to "misrepresent", even unintentionally...you can use words like "a beauty" and "runs great" and get away with it, but mileage is a very specific claim that definitely influences value. So be careful about what you can prove.
I have been shopping for a SL, is it O.K. to buy a 380 or is the 450 that much better, and does the year matter? And how are repairs? Any help would be great I am looking at 1973 - 1985 as I think they are one of the most beautiful cars I have ever seen! When I was stationed in Germany in the late 80's I dreamed of one day having one, Living in Norhern California I see a lot of them on the road and for sale. Thanks
If you can, read through all the posts under this topic, you'll get lots of insight. I've gathered the newer the better, and if you can swing a clean 560SL that's best of all.
Comments
The 380SL from 1981--1985
The 560SL from 1986--1989
450SL 380SL 560SL
160HP 155HP 227HP
3-spd auto 4 spd auto 4 spd auto
0-60 in 11.5 0-60 in 11.5 0-60 in 7.5 sec
top speed 112 110 mph 130 mph
14" tires 14" 15"
Bosch D injection K-jetronic KE-Jetronic
No ABS no ABS/air bags ABS/Air bags std.
no limited slip no limited slip limited slip std.
camshaft wear timing chain wear no known defects
As you can see, the 560SL is an improvement in just about every category. About the only complaint I can offer for the 560SL is the ugly bumpers and the fact that it's pretty heavy
WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN A USED ONE:
450SL --camshaft wear. You MUST have the valve covers pulled and look for pitting on the camshaft lobes. Also check for cracks in lower rear control arm mountings of the front suspension. This doesn't apply to 380 or 560. 450SLs are also prone to vapor lock and overheating, especially mid 70s models. Avoid them. Best year? Maybe 1979 before the 1980 power drop.
380SL--check the cam chain. If it is a single row chain it MUST be converted to double-row. 1984 and later 380SLs have this already. So best buy is 1984 or 1985 380SL.
560SL -- again, the best of the SLs. Of course, check all service records and avoid cars that were abused, salvaged, or high mileage.
So, in summary:
1979 450SL
1984-85 380SL
Any 560SL
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/car/304404046.html
Here's the K troubleshooting tips:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w116-s-se-sel-sd-class/1223523-bosch-d-jetronic-- k-jetronic-troubleshooting.html
You should put the catalytics further down stream, using an aftermarket set up. Without cats, which is of course illegal, you'll have a very noisy car as well as a polluter. You'll never pass smog tests without them.
I have been heavily searching for a couple months to find a 1979 450sl in good shape. This week I test drove a model that I had never heard of and can't find any information on. It has the euro headlights and the badge on the back says 480SL. I'm assuming this is a Euro model, but does anyone know anything about this car?
Thanks!
Euro lights are an easy add-on, it's the bumpers that make the difference. Grey market/Euro cars almost never received NA-spec bumpers.
And speaking of late 450SLs, Here's one for sale locally
I have no connection to the car, I just noticed the ad. Other than the period-incorrect 15" wheels, it appears quite decent.
The worst ones are 1975-6 right?
I guess my main "gripe" about the 450SL line in general is that it looks like a sports car but is really a "boulevardier" type of car. Driving it like a sports car is like dancing with a graceful hippo...it'll do it but it won't be pretty. And the gas mileage can hurt if you use the car a lot. Putting in $70 bucks worth of premium to go 250 miles might get old. But 20 miles a day, once a week, wouldn't be bad at all.
They are very sturdy cars, not very fast, but very comfy. If you had those gas pellets where you just add water to the gas tank, these cars can be very nice long distance, weekend cars.
For the price, they're hard to beat really, in spite of their shortcomings. I mean, compared to an $8,000 MGB, it's a joke how lame the British car really is in comparison to build quality.
You just have to remember to buy the very best one you can afford from the get-go. Never, EVER buy a fixer-upper needing serious amounts of work, no matter how tempting, no matter how cheap. It will eat you alive.
The missing could be due to tune up, but here again it could be something worse.
You can get a dash cap or a new dash, you can get new seat upholstery from various aftermarket suppliers, and of course you can keep getting the A/C fixed forever (it will likely need constant repair).
Basically this all adds up to $$$$.
If I was attached to the car and the body and paint was in exceptional condition, I would consider keeping it for pleasure use only, but not as a daily driver.
The AC is a perennial problem and in a sense not worth fixing anymore---even when they were brand new, these systems did not work very well.
I think as long as you can limit yourself to $1000 a year, you might as well drive it occasionally and enjoy those warm summer days and nights....but correcting all the problems doesn't sound like a good idea, nor does restoration.
My neighbors have a something SL (380 I think) and they let it run out of gas. They refilled it, but then it wouldn't start even though the engine cranked. Is there a simple culprit that could be fixed in 10 minutes, or is it a matter of finding the one wrong thing out of a hundred possibilities?
Don't overdue the starter fluid.
Those things have an electric pump in the tank, right?
Fuel filter is a possibility but in messing with cars for decades I have never seen a completely plugged up fuel filter that wouldn't allow some fuel through to at least start the car. But sure, that's certainly possible...not probable but possible.
Do the newer 500's chill better? We never had a complaint about my wife's 300E's A/C in ten years here.
Is there a better SL option worth my considering?
Bart :shades:
The only "downside" if you will of the 560SL is that it costs more to buy and will continue to depreciate, whereas the older V8 SLs have pretty much fully depreciated and are as cheap as they are going to get (which is pretty cheap).
Will they one day sell for as much as 280SLs and 190SLs? So far, after some 30+ years, they show no sign of doing so. They are so plentiful, and so expensive to make right, that this keeps their price down.
Ironically, it's very strange that one would even suggest that owning a 190SL is somehow a symbol of financial acuity. That's kind of funny. They should have shown her owning a 60s big block convertible muscle car, which in the last two years at least is probably the only type of old car which actually has outperformed the best stocks.
Yeah, the 190SLs had some dreadful Solex carburetors. Most smart people take them off and box 'em up, and use Webers.
190SLs are merely 190 sedans with convertible bodies bolted onto them. So it's grandma's engine in a show girl's dress (substitute appropriate masculine analogy---I'm not going there).
190Sls are charming in a way, and were meant to be the 300SLs little brother or sister or whatever, and priced and con-tented accordingly.
Fact is, in today's fast and loose credit market, just about anybody with a credit card and a job can buy a very fancy car.
The idea that a $30,000 or $40,000 car suggests wealth falls rather flat these days...I'd say to make ME believe that commecial, I'd have to see the waitress in a SL600 or some such...or a new Porsche or something. But even then, I'm thinking "hmmm, so she drew $100K out of her IRA for a new car?"
The commercial just misses the mark for the real car buff...but for folks who think plastic Auburn speedsters and VW powered Bugattis seen in parades are "real" cars, well, then it might work to impress them that a waitress owns a 190SL.
Personally, I think she'd be emptying her tip jar every day into her mechanic's pocket.
LOL --- It's the bumpers that make the car so attractively "retro". Bart
And thanks for the feedback. :shades:
Thanks.
Barry
Thanks
Chassis and body info will be on a small plate on a brace in front of the radiator. Engine number will be on the engine itself. I don't know if the standard VIN format we have today existed in 1979. I think some later Mercedes will have a VIN plate in the drivers door jam (I think) or on the drivers side A-pillar...it was there on my W126 anyway.
"Matching numbers" isn't really important on a Mercedes though, especially on a non-rare model. Nobody has ever wanted to take one of these engines and use it in something else.
About value, condition and maintenance is everything. Colors can also have a slight impact on cars from this period.
As for value, the low mileage has a plus and a minus factor...it should be worth more than normal book value, but you know, probably not that much more. Again, the "low miles" is something someone has to care about. Given that the car is rather commonly available, and was produced basically in only one version, the low mileage doesn't have the same appeal as it might on a Chevelle SS396 L78 for instance.
If the car were absolutely pristine and without fault (basically "like new") I would think $20,000 is really pushing it. If someone offered you $15K, I'd take it. If the tires and soft top are rotten (most likely), deduct accordingly.
Be careful about touting the low miles; unless you can prove it, you are responsible for that being an accurate statement and if the buyer finds out otherwise, you might be in legal jeopardy. You are not allowed to "misrepresent", even unintentionally...you can use words like "a beauty" and "runs great" and get away with it, but mileage is a very specific claim that definitely influences value. So be careful about what you can prove.
But the best of the 107s is easily the 560SL, made up through 1989. Prices are higher, but the car is much better,