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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Granted the XG came before the Amanti, but still...the XG is far from being a budget limo. There is nothing about the XG that made anyone think limo at all...nothing. It was however, a solid stepping stone on Hyundai's way to the Azera (thank goodness)!!!

    Well...here is where the arguement can start. The 3 cubic feet extra the XG supposedly had over the Sonata...was NOT noticable. I test drove both vehicles and I can assure you...it didn't seem any roomier than the Sonata. The difference between the hp and torque between the XG and the Sonata was not hugely significant at all. Another reason why the XG wasn't worth the extra money over the Sonata.

    You can believe what you want, maybe you're biased as a former XG owner and maybe I'm biased as a former Sonata owner, but I test drove both and the XG didn't bring enough to the table to sway me to get it over the Sonata...it just didn't.

    The look of the XG, while somewhat unique...was also quite awkward. The Sonata styling immediately brought one to think of a Jag (thus mine was nicknamed Baby Jag). And yes, the XG actually came out before the body style of the Sonata changed and I looked at the XG first. So it wasn't about having my mind set on the Sonata.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, since you could not tell the differences, you made a wise choice. Congrats on your Sonata ownership!
    Opinions differ. I'll live with that, hope you will too.

    2005 models:

    XG 350
    194 HP at 5500 RPM
    216 torque at 3500 RPM

    Sonata
    170 HP at 6000 RPM
    181 torque at 4000 RPM
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ESC can only limit cornering speed if it's ON
    well, of course and exactly right - and even in your Azera that system will always come back on when you start the car. So therefore, it is always on - except in those rare cases, maybe on a snowy day, that you conciously turn it off. Under 'normal circumstances' it had better not interfere, then you really would be losing control of your car to a computer, wouldn't you?
    In the Sonata 'test' I did myself - a tight 20mph posted traffic circle, the car would comfortably get around it at 55 mph with some tire squeal and a lot of understeer with the system off. Trying it with the system on, 10 mph less, as the VSC applied the brakes (actually just one brake I think) and cut the throttle for me.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    is it not true that Kias are generally burdened with Hyundai's last generation of engines? the new 3.3 and 3.8 are both pretty darn good (and competitive) efforts.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the 194hp in the XG and FTM the 170 in the Sonata would put both cars in the same sort of 'slug' category as, for example, the Ford 500.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, since you could not tell the differences, you made a wise choice. Congrats on your Sonata ownership!
    Opinions differ. I'll live with that, hope you will too.

    Performance specs from Edmunds Comparison tests:

    XG 350 beat 2 out of 3 competitors in the races.
    Sonata was a distant 5th place loser in its 5 car comparison test.

    XG 350
    3.5 liters motor
    194 HP at 5500 RPM
    216 torque at 3500 RPM
    7.7 seconds 0-60 MPH
    15.9 seconds 1/4 mile
    127 ft. 60-0 braking
    60.6 mph slalom
    18/26 city/hwy EPA MPG

    Sonata
    2.7 liters motor
    170 HP at 6000 RPM
    181 torque at 4000 RPM
    9.1 seconds 0-60 MPH
    16.8 seconds 1/4 mile
    132 ft. 60-0 braking
    60.0 mph slalom
    19/27 city/hwy EPA MPG
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    See the figures in the post above for XG 350 and Sonata?
    XG 350 soundly beat 2 out of 3 competitors in races.
    Sonata was a distant 5th place loser in its 5 car comparison test.
    The early Kia Amanti was truly a slug. Look it up. Really slow and handles like a fat sow compared the hot rod XG 350. Hahaha!
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Hahaha. Just remembered the Consumer's Digest blurb on the XG 350 L.
    The called it the perfect car for the head of state of an emerging 3rd world country. Too funny! But an accurate assessment. It is very luxurious in its old world styling and large number of upscale features. And it has a very smooth, quiet ride too.
    During the last couple years it was sold, the XG was advertised new for under $18,000 in Sunday papers of cities across the U.S.
    Yep, yep...The XG was a good budget limo!
    Hahahaha!
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    It is never a good sign to see that $3000.00 rebate sign appear on a model you just bought

    But it's a GREAT thing to see if you carefully WAIT for the deals to be had. ;)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I wonder what's going to happen now that the Altima offers the 270 hp powerplant!

    My salary will go up again. ;)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    .it's sorta like ABS. It can help you in the right conditions, but is it REALLY needed???

    The only reason ABS is needed is because every other yayhoo out there has it . . and they USE it to "stop on a dime", instead of driving responsibly.

    These idiots will actually SPEED UP to approach a plainly visible wall of red tail lights in front of them, to then slame on the brakes.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    much like ABS (which doesn't shorten stopping distances) it only allows more control.

    But it DOES shorten stopping distance for those who prefer to slam on their brakes.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Personally, I don't plan on testing it out to see if it actually works. Again...is it NEEDED, probably not, but it's something that's there. If it bothers one that much...they can simply turn it off.

    Actually, in many vehicles, you can't really completely turn off the ESC. All you can can do is "turn it down" somewhat.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    You say, "...nothing about the XG that made anyone think limo at all...nothing..."
    Most people know that they are not likely to win many debates by using absolutes in conjunction with each other, such as claiming nothing, all, anyone and other such words strung together. It just backs you into a corner with no escape route. And it only takes one little example to prove you wrong.
    If you want to you can go argue with the editors of Consumer Digest, but it won't help. They described it as a cheap limo too.
    Here's something said by a guy who knew a little about debate and how to persuade others: "If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. -- Abraham Lincoln
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    Fortunately, the Azera will "stop on a dime and give you a nickle in change"... ;)
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    The new Mustang, including the GT500, is rigid axle.
  • cobrazeracobrazera Member Posts: 352
    As a GM retiree, I doubt that assembly standards are different between Buick and Pontiac. They may, and probably do, use different suppliers for various components, and those suppliers may be held to different standards and probably use more expensive and better quality components in the Buick. I'm talking interiors and some exterior parts as well as suspension. Drivetrain components are made at the same place.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    the Azera will "stop on a dime and give you a nickle in change"

    The problem, though, is people who USE that ability routinely in their driving. All they're doing is causing accidents. Just like the *#&*# who drive 50mph on the freeway.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    I'd suspected that, as the years go by after the introduction of ABS, people would come to overly rely on that system to "save" them from their own error. This is the first vehicle I've owned that has it, so I still rely on longer following distances and my cat-like reflexes.

    Of course, having lived in Italy for two years, "longer following distance" means just close enough so a Fiat Quattro-Cento can't slip in!... ;)
  • quietproquietpro Member Posts: 702
    I would argue that the average American still doesn't know much more about ABS other than it being installed on their vehicle. Many still think something is wrong with the car when they hear it engage.

    As cars get better and better, "our" knowledge level of the inner workings declines. In some ways, I miss the little quirks of older cars. I felt a personal connection to a car that I could start but would give a stranger a hard time. In those days you truly OWNED the car with all its "faults."

    Cars are becoming more and more appliance-like and the operators are less and less drivers.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and if you already have a 500, expect a good portion of that money to be deducted off any value the car already own! The cheaper something gets to buy new, the less it will be worth down the road. A fact that will haunt all current 500 owners - what do you think Ford and its dealers are going to have to do with existing 500 stock, when the 'Taurus' starts to hit the lots (if it does). If the 3.5 is even half of what it is supposed to be and Ford is right in assumming that something called a Taurus is perceived well by the car buyers out there (IMO a stretch on both counts), they won't be able to give them away.
    I am sure that all those thousands of 500 buyers over the last three years were ripe with anticipation that the car would be a dud, only to see the thing discounted down to nothing in its last days. Really what happened - they all just got screwed by Ford's inability to make a competitive car! Merry Christmas, best wishes from Dearborn!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    your comments point out the dangers of the misconceptions regarding things like ABS and VSC fot that matter.
    Nothing that releases brakes for you during a panic stop, or put them on for you in an emergency manuever (along with cutting throttle and/or slowing steering/tranny responses) improves anything and in fact, may hurt - depending at what level the systems are set to interfere relative to the car's actual capabilites. What both systems do do - is to help you maintain control, which is quite different.
    As long as there are 'yahoos' (your word) out there that think that these systems make them imprevious to their own mistakes and misjudgements, which I think most people actually believe - we are better off without them!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well, we don't what who the other 2 slugs were, do we? The 7.7 sounds a little quick given the car's wght and hp, but does put it in the same neighborhood, as some other slugs in this group, a Buick Lucerne 3.8, the current Amanti, and the 500. The Avalon, Azera, Maxima, for example, these cars would NOT be slugs.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    "As long as there are 'yahoos' (your word) out there that think that these systems make them imprevious to their own mistakes and misjudgements, which I think most people actually believe - we are better off without them!"

    I gather you're a believer in the efficacy of the "Darwin Awards" on the gene pool?... ;)
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Of course, having lived in Italy for two years, "longer following distance" means just close enough so a Fiat Quattro-Cento can't slip in!...

    Sounds like Houston. LOL

    Today, there was a group of three motorcycle riders that decided they'd just zip between cars travelling at 40mph or so in congested traffic. I guess they figured if they can fit in between the cars, why not do it. Sheesh.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    I am sure that all those thousands of 500 buyers over the last three years were ripe with anticipation that the car would be a dud, only to see the thing discounted down to nothing in its last days. Really what happened - they all just got screwed by Ford's inability to make a competitive car! Merry Christmas, best wishes from Dearborn!

    Actually, the only reason I would feel "screwed" by Ford is that if things dont change, I won't be able to get a CVT in my next car 8 years or so down the road.

    Then again, Ford may not exist then, either.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    What both systems do do - is to help you maintain control, which is quite different.

    Precisely. And that's OK with me. But there's far too many who now RELY on those systems to help them "stop on a dime", instead of relying on safe driving practices.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yes, the 7.7 seconds 0-60 mph for the XG 350 is correct.
    Of course most new 2007 cars that sell in that same market segment are faster now. Remember, that XG 350 was a car that came out in 2002.
    Back then it beat the Camry V6 and the Volkswagen Passat V6 in the races. The XG 350 lost only to the new hotrod Altima 3.5 V6 that made a whopping 240 HP at 5800 rpm and torque of 246 at 4400 rpm. The XG 350 made maximum HP 194 at 5500 rpm and its torque peak of 216 ft.lbs at 3500 rpm. The XG's nice fat torque curve helped it out-accelerate the lighter Camry and Passat.
    In 2002, there were not any midsized sedans that could beat the Altima 3.5 in a race unless you paid a whole lot more money.
    The base MSRPs of the cars were all around $24,000 to $26,000 except for the $29,300 Passat GLX which won the overall comparison. The XG 350 was $2000 less than the middle two cars' base MSRPs, and had the most equipment all of which was included in its base price. The XG also had the smoothest quietest ride of the bunch, gave the best fuel mileage and had the only 5-speed automatic; the others had 4-speeds.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    My mistake: That Volkswagen GLX V6 was tested with a 5-speed manual transmission. It would have been even slower and cost another $1,075 if it had an automatic, putting its price over $30,000.
    The XG was more than $5000 less expensive, loaded.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The new Kia Amanti has 266 HP from Hyundai's 3.8 liter motor which pulls it from 0-60 mph in 7.1 seconds, nearly a second slower than when it is installed (with 263 HP) in the Hyundai Azera.

    The old XG 350 did 0-60 in 7.7 seconds.
    The Altima 3.5 did 0-60 in 7.3 seconds, and it was about THE fastest 6 cylinder midsize car you could get back then, so the XG's 7.7 seconds made it far from a slug.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Gee, you mean that isn't normal?? I thought that was the way it "just happened" all the time. Wheeeee ;)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    RE. 1337: I had a 2000 300M, (3.5 / 250 something HP)and as I recall it was about the quickest US 6-cyl 4-door sedan 0-60 (at that time of course)
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    Never timed my 02 XG350L, but it had more than enough power to handle the Colorado mountains. While I would agree the styling was dated, it wasn't a problem for an older geezer like me. The three things that were the best about it (and convinced me to stay with Hyundai getting a new Azera) were the numerous features, the interior room, and putting 76K on it with only a burned out headlight bulb as the only problem it ever had.
  • barnstormer64barnstormer64 Member Posts: 1,106
    Gee, you mean that isn't normal??

    You shoulda seen the time that a motorcyclist decided to "pop a wheelie" and travel for at least a quarter-mile down the interestate . . . with cars ALL around him doing 60mph.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Oooh yeah, I think that guy must have been in Pensacola with a friend a few months back.the two of them I think were trying to impress one another with their ?ability or stupidity, I'm not sure which. They acted as though the road was a showplace instead of a traffic moving roadway. The show was certainly there, with both front and rear wheelies, and a few other things too for over a 2 to 3 mile stretch. Oh well, to each his own so they say., at least I was able to stay out of their way, this was in moderate traffic running about 40mph. :surprise:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the DC 3.5 is a good effort, perhaps only matched currently by the GM 3.6 and even the Ford 3.5 (seen good reports on the power of this one, but also that it falls short of the refinenment and smoothness of the Toyota/Honda/Nissan egnines. It pushes the heavier 300 to 60 in the low 7s, the 300M I would guess in the mid 6s, which would indeed make it very quick for a 'US' made V6. Think that the Koreans are further along in smaller engine development at this point than the US mfgrs. however
  • prosource1prosource1 Member Posts: 234
    The codename Hyundai BH sedan will be RWD, 6 speed Aisan tranny, 340 4.6 V8 new Hyundai Tau engine and will start at $29995. It will debut at the NY Autoshow in April.
    This Korean site has traditionally rec'd 'spot-on' sketches.

    http://www.bobaedream.com/board/data/data_view.php?code=national&No=76165&page=1- &select=Subject&content=bh&r_no=6&search_gubun=&s_pagescale=&search_day=
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Chrysler 300M came out in 1999 and ended in 2004.
    Contemporary road tests in 1999 showed 0-60 in 7.7 and 7.8 seconds (Motor Trend).
    3.5-liter, aluminum High-Output SOHC 24-valve V6 generates a responsive 250* horsepower at 6,400 rpm, with 250* pound-feet of torque at 3,900 rpm.

    The 2001 model road test showed 0-60 mph in 7.5 seconds. Miles Per Gallon EPA city 18, hwy 26.

    In 2002, a c"300 Special M" ame out. The limited-edition sedan gets a bump of five ponies—to 255, owing to reduced back pressure from its dual exhaust. Torque is up as well, to 258 pound-feet, an increase of three. Coupled to an AutoStick transmission that features a shorter final-drive ratio—3.89 versus 3.66—the beefed-up six seemed poised to make the Special quicker.
    Poised? Yes. Quicker? No. The Special clipped the 60-mph mark in 8.0 seconds, 100 mph in 22.7, and the quarter-mile in 15.9. Not shabby, but not any better than the last 300 we tested (March 2000), which reached 60 in 7.8, 100 in 21.2, and the quarter-mile in 15.9. (Road & Track magazine)

    (The 300 C is the current model. With a 345 cubic inch V8 hemi it may have 0-60 times in the 6 second range, but the 300 M never did.)
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The current 300 C with a 345 V-8 hemi might make it to 60 in the 6 second range, but the 300 M never did.
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    The current 300 C with a 345 V-8 hemi might make it to 60 in the 6 second range, but the 300 M never did.

    Might? How about 5.3 seconds!
    http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtests/8009/2005-chrysler-300c-hemi-page3.html
    Here is the link
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    Thanks to Captain here it is:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11447/chrysler-300-touring.html

    It shows the 3.5L 300 going to 60 in 7.3 seconds.
    The 300 weighs quite a bit more than 300M.
    My guess is that the newer 2005+ 3.5L High Outputs are now rated a true 250HP and the 300M may have had the 250 overstated.
    Car magazine numbers will vary. Car and Driver usually gets the best numbers. When getting data from Consumer Reports you need to add a full second to the 0-60 figure.
    Car and Driver got 5.9 seconds for the 07 V6 Camry and
    Consumer Reports got 7.1 seconds. Thats a huge difference.

    But in this particular case (3.5L DC)both were tested by Car and Driver which will keep the results accurate.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yeah, I knew the 300 C was quick, but my post was more an answer to the guess made earlier by captain 2 that the 300 M was a 6 second car 0-60 mph, which it is not.
    My saying the V-8 300 C might do a 6 second run allowed for any time. I did not limit the 300 C to any particular time.
    I did limit the 300 M to times slower than the 6 second range.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yours does not seem to be a response to my post. Maybe you were responding to someone else.
    I was never concerned about the current model 300 with a 3.5 motor. I was not making claims about it or responding to other posts about it. I was responding to posts about the 300 M.
    Yeah, Car & Driver (and Road & Track) usually have the quickest times. Motor Trend also gets quick times, but generally don't test so many imports as the other two. Their testers do whatever it takes to get maximum performance. They will torque brake an automatic trans car to get the quickest launch and will dump the clutch at high rpm and forego lift-throttle shifts on a manual car if it will result in a quicker time. They are hard on cars.
    Consumer reports drives more gently, not doing any of those extreme techniques, so their times are slower.
    The 1/4 mile terminal speed should not vary too much using gentle or drastic launches.
    Again, your post, though arguably interesting, was not really responsive to any point I was trying to make.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Here are more views of (V-8 hemi) 300 C performance:

    "The Chrysler 300C can go from zero to 60 mph in just 6.3 seconds. According to Burke Brown, chief engineer for both the 300 and the related Dodge Magnum:
    "Chrysler's new rear-wheel-drive architecture transfers hemi power to the pavement. Rear-wheel drive offers improved handling, with the front wheels steering and the rear wheels driving."
    http://www.ridedrive.com/05chry-300-0904.html

    And, "The 340-horsepower Hemi has to carry 4046 pounds, so it won't run with a Corvette, but it is plenty fast, with a 0-60 time of 6.3 seconds, according to Chrysler."
    http://chrysler.jbcarpages.com/300/2005/
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Motor Trend timed the 2006 Chrysler 300 with a 3.5 V-6 at 7.6 seconds 0-60 mph.
    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0606_fullsize_sedan_comparison/spe- cs_pricing.html
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Might as well mention this one too:
    The SRT8 is a big sedan with 56 cubic feet of front passenger space and 51 in the rear. It isn't light at 4212 pounds, but at just below 10 pounds per horsepower the SRT8 will bust through 60 mph in 4.7 seconds on its way to a 13.2-second quarter-mile at 109 mph.
    Car & Driver.
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    captain2 / joe131: Thanks for the research on the old FWD 3.5 300M. Respectable 0-60 runs at the time. I later added a K&N charger, and while I don't know if it made it quicker, it sure sounded better! ;)
  • dborthdborth Member Posts: 474
    Thanks for your posts re. the "BH" I too have been tracking this future model and the sketch shown looks pretty nice. I was hoping for more HP in the 8, but this 3.8 / 4.6 combo is obviously aimed to compete with the Infinity "M" series but at "wow" pricing.

    My '07 Azera lease expires in 24 months, so I'm licking my chops in anticipation. ;)
  • alexstorealexstore Member Posts: 264
    No and hyundai proves it. Almost all of their cars bare resemblance to other brands. As one hyundai owner said previously- cheap man's benz. from sketch this future car looks like a copy of infinity M. Sonata is a copy of Accord. Common Hyundai, can you make your own designs? Now like i said in one of my previous posts I was helping my MIL with her car and we had a chance to drive both Azera and Sonata. I am sorry to say but both car's interior is at least 2 generations old compared to others. She btw liked Sonata on its short test drive, but interior is way too old. Also 2 dealers we went here in NY sounded like used car dealers.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    as I mentioned in an earlier post, there seems no doubt that C&D is the king of car abuse. Just like the Camry numbers you report. The Avalon, for example, has been tested as low as 6 flat (by you know who) but generally up into the middle 6s by others. The HP rating overstatement may have to do with some SAE rating rule changes that became effective in 2006, that Avalon 'lost' 12 hp but the engine didn't change. So the 300M HP numbers may be slightly overstated depending on when Chrysler adopted the new SAE standards, but honest HP/lb of vehicle weight remains the most accurate forecast of straight line performance.
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