Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

jcm68

To answer your 4 questions......
1)Yes, a brand new Azera LIMITED.
2)Yes, $23K OTD
3)The MSRP was > $27K

4)I bought it @Fitzgerald Auto Mall in Clearwater. So what? Trade in or not, it is a mute point when it comes to their willingness to negotiate a price. Why? Well...........they don't negotiate, there prices are already set and there is no hassle or negotiations. Take it or leave it. Regardless if you financing the whole thing or paying cash or having a trade in involved, the sale price is the same and is on there Website as Internet Pricing. Ala Saturn way. The price they gave me was like $22.5K w/ the Loyalty discount (there was no financing discount). Obviously the trade in helped a lot in terms of taxes. I paid taxes on $6.5K instead of the entire $22.5K.

Any way, my point is.............. you can't get more car for the money than the Azera. Again, tell me what can you get from Toyota, Nissan and Honda for under $23K (around $22.5K)???

Here, I’ll do the homework for you. Instead of looking what can I get from Toyota, Honda and Nissan for under $23K I tried to find their prices for similarly equipped cars compared to the Azera Limited.

1) 2007 Toyota Avalon Touring (Not the Limited or not even the LX) 4dr Sedan
((no nav system and no blue tooth)) ((had to add Vehicle Stability Control option to match the Azeras’)
$31,589MSRP Price
$28,888Invoice Price

2) 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6 (A6) 4dr Sedan ((no nav system and no blue tooth))
((had to add Vehicle Stability Control , Driver & Passenger Heated Seats
, Dual Exhaust, and the 17in alloy Wheels options to match the Azeras’)
$32,832MSRP Price
$29,826Invoice Price

3) 2007 Honda Accord 3.0 EX w/Auto 4dr Sedan ((no nav system and no blue tooth))((comes w/ XM radio Ok ok ok but….. 19HP less than the Azera)
$27,995MSRP Price
$25,514Invoice Price

4)2007 Acura TSX Base 4dr Sedan ((no nav system and no blue tooth))((comes w/ XM radio but it is worst than cousin, there is a more significant HP difference…..58hp less than the Azera)))
$28,760MSRP Price
$26,450Invoice Price

5) 2007 Nissan Maxima 3.5 SE 4dr Sedan ((no nav system and no blue tooth))
((had to add Leather seat option and the Sensory package to match the Azera))
$31,205MSRP Price
$28,450Invoice Price

6) 2007 Nissan Altima 3.5 SE 4dr Sedan (( in order to be able to select the Leather Package, the XM or Sirius option needs to be included…..ouch!!))
$30,415MSRP Price
$27,870Invoice Price

Of course you can get the Accord and the Camry for $23K but how many options you need to ignore to get there? Forget the Maxima, Avalon or even the anemic TSX you will have to buy an used 05-06 if you want to expend less than $23K.

tjc78

I don't think features should be the reason for comparing the Camry / Avalon or Sonata / Azera. The size of vehicle you need should be the decision. For example, I would rather have a base model Avalon than a fully loaded Camry. Not that there is anything wrong with a Camry, just too small for me. A friend has a fully loaded Camry XLE V6 that was a touch over 30K, it has things my 34K Avalon XLS doesn't have. He was stunned that my car doesn't have smart key or bluetooth, but realized how much bigger the interior is and the better ride.

jaxs1

"2) 2007 Toyota Camry XLE V6 (A6) 4dr Sedan ((no nav system and no blue tooth)) "

Bluetooth is STANDARD on all Camry XLEs.

You got some special "loyalty discount" that will not apply to 90% of buyers at that dealership and 99% of buyers would not go to that particular dealership anyway due to distance.
That is not a realistic nationwide price.

alexstore

hmm one thing you are failing to mention in comparison of toyota, honda, Nissan and Hyundai is resale value in 2+ years and even in 1 year. while for the first three you will get at least 50% I highly doubt that you will get more than 30% out of Azera

tjc78

Don't take this the wrong way, but when you trade a car in you really never know the actual price you paid for the new car. There are plenty of factors in a trade senario. They can lowball your trade and take more off the car, or they can put an overallowance on the trade and take nearly nothing off the new car. I agree with another poster in that your deal is not the typical deal people will find on the Azera.

jaymagic

Good analysis. I traded an 00 Avalon XLS in on my 07 Azera Limited/Ultimate. The Azera is every bit the quality of the Avalon. I priced out a new Avalon and w/o Nav (which I do not want or need), I got my Azera for about $4,500 less than the best offer on an Avalon.

While I would say entry level (or even a little higher) luxury, I am happy to go with the large sedan designation. If you want to pay for the Toyota name, go ahead. If you want the best car for the money, go with the Hyundai, by a mile.

bobwiley

jaymagic: Hyundai has made tremendous strides in quality and will eventually be the next Toyota. However; in terms of quality, dependability and resale value---they have to first earn that reputation. A bsae 07 Avalon XL will retain about 39% of its MSRP vs 33% for the Azera Limited after 4 years. The Avalon XLS retains 42% at 48 month's. Go to www.cars.com and you can get the Residual Values for all cars and how they are clculated. They take in many factors and the American Leasing Group (ALG) is certainly a "benchmark" for determining residual value. The Azera is certainly a very nice car I'm sure--but---it is the "new kid on the block" in terms of competing long term with the Toyota Avalon. ALG ranks the Avalon as having the 3rd best Rsidual Value behind the Mini Cooper and Acura MDX. I always laugh when I hear about J D Powers ranking so and so as the best in initial quality--so--who's the "best" after the warranty is gone? Lexus and Toyota own the long term reliability reputaiton because they've earned it. Bob

alexstore

as all you know by now , the simplest way a company can get a high JD Powers ratings is have their dealers do following:

Dealer : hey, when you receive a review from JD powers, just bring it to me and you will get on of the following : free maintenance, oil change, gas, etc.

where it is important is forums, where real people talk about problem and you can get a general view of vehicle reliability.

since Hyundai talks a lot about JD its a suspect in it

gamleged

A lower Hyundai resale value is quite likely for another three or four years, as the brand/model needs to favorably assert itself in the public's mind, as was the case for Honda and Toyota, when they decided to "stretch their legs" and go upscale. But for those of us who keep a car long term (20 years for my first Accord, 16 years + for my second Accord) resale value is of no concern... :shades:

imidazol97

>since Hyundai talks a lot about JD its a suspect in it

JD Powers results and summaries are made public. What does a car company, Hyundai, have to do with it?

>Dealer : hey, when you receive a review from JD powers, just bring it to me and you

That would require all Chevrolet dealers, e.g., doing that. Do you believe they are? I've certainly never received an offer. I have been in 3 JD Powers surveys back in the late 80s and early 90s. Over a period of months I received questionnaires on each car.

barnstormer64

But for those of us who keep a car long term (20 years for my first Accord, 16 years + for my second Accord) resale value is of no concern...

And I thought that *I* kept my cars long-term (about 10 years). I hereby defer to your long-term-ness, and I guess that makes me a mid-term seller.

joe97

"hmm one thing you are failing to mention in comparison of toyota, honda, Nissan and Hyundai is resale value in 2+ years and even in 1 year. while for the first three you will get at least 50% I highly doubt that you will get more than 30% out of Azera"

The Azera lose 70% in its first 1-2 years? Please do some research.

One thing to keep in mind, while it is evident Hyundai's resale values is still behind Toyota and Honda, it should be mentioned they have been improving dramatic and moving up the ladder at an amazing pace.

The thing you forgot to factor in is the transaction price paid. The upfront savings on the Hyundai will not only offset the differences in resales values, in some cases providing an advantage years down the road. Also, you should factor the amount of interest saved, if financed, as well as interest income for those investing the upfront savings.

joe97

My post was in response to the other poster:

"Just buy a Sonata instead since the Azera adds little in features."

To which I responded, "so is it fair to say to buy a Camry instead since the Avalon add little in features." (not in form of a question, obviously)

I agree, however, with your statement about size.

joe97

"as all you know by now , the simplest way a company can get a high JD Powers ratings is have their dealers do following:

Dealer : hey, when you receive a review from JD powers, just bring it to me and you will get on of the following : free maintenance, oil change, gas, etc.

where it is important is forums, where real people talk about problem and you can get a general view of vehicle reliability.

since Hyundai talks a lot about JD its a suspect in it"

What are you talking about? So a company like Hyundai does well in JD Power, CR, etc, you concluded their dealers are buying (bribing) customers off. Now I've heard just about everything, first Azera is not a large car, then Azera is not competitive, Azera adds little incentive from the Sonata, now Hyundai is buying off its customers to garner good reviews. Using the same analogy, does this mean Toyota dealers are doing the same thing, since they've generally ranked in the above average categories?

Let's try insert some facts instead of speculative and un-supportive comments.

tjc78

Joe,

I really meant to reply to the original poster's message. Glad you agree though!

plekto

Less money also makes for less financed as well as less on registration, taxes, insurance(full coverage on a less expensive and less likely to be stolen model), and of course repairs in the later years of the loan can make a cheaper car a better deal.

Of course, it has to be siginificantly lower - like 25% cheaper to work out in this case, but the Hyundai looks to be jsut able to pull it off - for a net tie down the road in cost to own(lower initial price aside - where it wins handily)

Look, I like Toyota and Honda to a point, but it's clear that they also overprice their cars because they feel that they can - by a large margin. Now, that they CAN get away with it doesn't mean that it is ethical or a smart use of my money as a consumer. Afterall, if Nissan or Mitsubishi, both of which are solid "Japanese" makes sells a simmilar car for a lot less money, and GM puts out a car like the CTS for the same price as an Avalon, something's clearly off.

Hyundai just happens to be the new "Oldsmobile" these days. They make decent if uninspiring cars with little soul and flair, utilizing last-generation technology, but dang if they aren't cheap and run forever(and as a result are rental company favorites now).

I think it's a valid sommoon-denominator yardstick to judge the big guys with. Well, maybe halfway between Hyundai and Mazda would be closer to reality.(that said, the Mazda 6 is a great car for the price)

gamleged

On an Azera thread, there was mention of a report that a driver was ticketed driving a rented Sonata, clocked at over 130 mph. An Azera owner posted that he's had his car up to about 145 mph and it still had more to give! The Sonata and the Azera do fly, yes indeedy... :shades:

tjc78

"Afterall, if Nissan or Mitsubishi, both of which are solid "Japanese" makes sells a simmilar car for a lot less money, and GM puts out a car like the CTS for the same price as an Avalon, something's clearly off"

Not sure what you mean here, the Altima and Camry are very similarly priced as is the Maxima and Avalon. You may be able to squeeze $500 or so more out of the Nissan dealer, but that isn't all that much on a $30K plus car.

As for your comparison of the Avalon to the CTS, who would really cross shop the two? The Avalon is a big soft riding FWD sedan where the CTS is a small sporty RWD. The CTS compares to an IS250 / 350 in which the MSRP's are pretty close too. The only difference is Lexus won't have to give rebates to sell their cars, so you will pay more for the Lexus on identical MSRP. I really don't think this has anything to do with overpricing the cars.

kdshapiro

Great call. This happened to me with the last two car purchases. Signed the evaluation form, brought it to the dealer, let them fill it out. Got some freebies. A very good JD Power rating is worth more than some freebies.

joe131

That Sonata driver was ticketed for doing 147 in Scottsdale, AZ.

kdshapiro

" you concluded their dealers are buying (bribing) customers off. Now I've heard just about everything,"

Let me say I wouldn't put it past any dealer to do this. If a dealer offered you two years of free oil changes with the stipulation they fill out the eval form, you wouldn't give in to this offer? I did, twice.

joe131

The CTS has 99/13 cu.ft. so is much larger for passengers and cargo than a Lexus IS which has 88/11 EPA cu.ft. for passengers/cargo.
Lexus is a subcompact, an overpriced tiny 4 door car. Cadillac is a midsize car says EPA. Two classes apart, not even close!
Huge difference. Go sit in them.

jcm68

That is incorrect................. I knew the actual price even before going to the dealer. Like I mentioned, this dealer have a no hassle policy and their prices are set ala Saturn style. By the way, there is no commission for the sales rep.

dodgeman07

The Maxima is in the same EPA size class as Nissan's Sentra and Versa. So why is Maxima even included in this large car discussion?

Good Point - But the Sentra is at 111 cubic feet and the Maxima is at 119+. They both are rated as Mid-size with the Maxima being much larger.

jcm68

Realistic or not................ it is up to how smart-buyer you are. I bought the 06 Sonata @ a
different Dealer closer to my house using a printout of Fitz Internet deal. I got the same deal as
the one advertised by Fitzgerald Auto Mall. I have to admit it was hard, very hard to have
them match the deal offered by a Dealer 10 miles away but at the end I got the same deal. As
soon as they saw me opening my wife minivan door (ready to leave the dealer lot) the sale rep
stop me and said........." Ok ok ok you got it!"

I could get the same deal for the Azera at Courtesy Hyundai of Tampa or Brandon but this time
I decided to drive an extra 10 miles because I did not wanted to go through the same hassling
Sh** I experienced before. It was hell!

But again, same deal can be obtained @ any Dealer in the region. You just need to deal w/ a
lot of BS and sale tactics. You need to be patient and outsmart them.

I saw better deals from Hyundai dealers in Texas, PA, and Maryland but for obvious reasons I couldn't use it as a negotiating tool.

plekto

You're forgetting that Nissan, Mazda, and the others routinely have rebates and incentives whereas Toyota.. I can't remember when... Seriously.

But the yardstick, IMO, is the Mazda.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70MAC141E0&restor- - e=false
Dang if that's not ~$19,000 for a V6 car that's a dead-ringer for a Camry V6 in how it drives, or as close as it gets.

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70TOC021F0&restor- - e=false
~$22,000
Toyota's cood, but $3K better? The Mazda 6 isn't a Caprice, afterall...

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91107&acode=USB70HOC011E0&restor- - e=false
~$21,500
Closer, but come on - that's still a lot of money for a stripped-down Accord.

rpfingsten

I've been sitting here and reading this back and forth on the azera vs. the avalon and I wasn't really sure which way I leaned on the issue. So yesterday, as I'm running errands for the wife in my 07 Avalon XLS, I just happen to be passing a Hundai (sp) dealer so I stop to look at the Azera.. the first one I see on the lot is a limited, sticker on it was slightly over 30K. Asthetically, I saw no comparison to the avalon..I don't have the #s to bear this out, but from first appearance, the Azera appears smaller on the outside, I know for a fact that the rear end of the car is more narrow than the Avy.. Took it for a drive..first thing I noticed being a rather large man that the azera cabin is smaller than my avy..the seats were not nearly as comfortable nor was the ride. pick up and accelaration were pretty good, I will give it that... The trim in the car was just plain "silver".. nothing wrong with that, just nothing to compare to the avalons. Again, this was a "Limited" for 30K.. The sticker on my avy was alittle over 33K.. the increased cabin size, the ride and performance in the avy more than compensates for the 3 grand difference. Personally I liked the look of Tiburon better than the Azera..Again, this is just my personal opinion and I hope I don't offend any Azera owners. To each his own. I've been a ford or gm owner my entire life, and this is my first toyota, and I have to tell you, despite some of the things I've discovered in the 5 months of owning the car, it may be the best car I've ever owned. and this comes from a man who was actually sitting at the Buick dealership with pen in hand ready to sign the papers on a new Lucerne with a northstar when my wife talked me into driving down the street to test drive the toyota first.. after I did, I never went back to the buick dealership. final anaylisis: we should all buy what we like and not worry about what someone else thinks about it.buy it, drive it, be happy...

Roland

hardhawk

I am 6'4" and the deal killer for the Avalon is the rear seat head room. In the Avalon, even with the rear seat reclined, my head hits the roof. In the Azera, it doesn't. The Avalon would be a lot easier for me since the nearest dealer is only 15 miles away and the Azera dealer is 50. But, I have to have a car in which I can sit anywhere and not have my head hit the roof. It isn't just the Avalon that has this problem. There are large numbers of mid and full size sedans, some that cost almost twice what the Azera does, in which I cannot sit without my head hitting the roof in back. Now, I don't plan on riding in the back much, but still there should be more headroom. Anybody else notice this? The Ford 500, soon to be Taurus, has plenty of room.

joe131

Azera Limited has a MSRP of $27,335.
Avalon Limited's MSRP is now $34,065. I guess it went up a little since you got yours.
Those figures are for the most expensive trim level of each.
That's a $6,730 difference in MSRP. That is huge!
Azera's invoice price is $25,397. Many are getting these cars for well under invoice price, so a more accurate difference in purchase prices may be $8,668 or more, depending on whether you can get an Avalon for less than sticker. Either way, Azera is much less.
Both cars have 107 cu.ft. for passengers but the Azera has a larger trunk at 17 cu.ft. to Avalon's 14 cu.ft. Big advantage here goes to Azera.
Maybe the front passengers have a little more room in the Avalon, but the rear passengers have more room in the Azera.

floridabob1

RE: 1235
As both of your compared cars are priced at the highest trim levels, are you sure that they have comparable equipment.
I know that Toyota offers, smart key, lazar cruise control, navigation, blue tooth, etc. Are these items standard at the highest trim levels?
The important thing when comparing price, is what is included in the quote.

joe131

For the purpose of responding to the other poster, I don't care what the equipment differences are between Azera and Avalon. I was just trying to point out his possible misrepresentations of the MSRPs and the difference between them.
But since you mentioned it, go ahead and compare all the equipment and post your findings. Or just search the posts, I'm pretty sure its been done before.

jicka

Come ON! How often do ride in the backseat of your car?
I do admit though, that the acid test (I too am 6'4") is whether there is knee room in the back for my frame. Perhaps I have longer legs that you.

Indeed, we all have our individual "gauges." At $2.44 per gallon, the mileage of the Avalon v. Azera - plus the extra 35 miles to the Hyundai dealer would make my decision alot easier.

captain2

a bad comparison, while all cars will have a different set of features you can always point to, most of which is 'bling' anyway; the Avalon Limited certainly has more of it than is even available on the Azera Ltd.. It is not uncommon to see the Av Ltd. on dealer lots down here in Texas with stickers right at $40k! Would suggest to you 2 things: the Azera Ltd. is more comparable feature wise with an Avalon somewhere between the Touring and the XLS, and the $3 or $4 grand difference (at that level) may be easily recoverable at trade-in time.

joe131

Yes, of course you (and capt and rpf) are correct: equipment should be the same or at least the differnces accounted for when comparing cars or MSRPs. (But actual reasonably expected sale prices may or may not be in line with the % differences in MSRPs.)
If I could, I would delete my posts of today at 10:14 and 10:28 and 10:46. Reading them again I realize that I ended up pretty much wasting space there while maybe coming off as being less than courteous to the posters I was responding to.
Sorry.

hardhawk

I can fit into the Azera back seat knee room wise. The Avalon does have more knee room than the Azera. I do every so often ride in the back, but have to agree that it is not very often. From your post, I assume that the Avalon gets better mileage than the Azera?

captain2

no need to apologize for anything - if your point is that the Azera is all about a lot of car for the money - I don't think any of us will argue about that. The fact is, if you consider, the cost to Toyota (or Hyundai FTM) of adding all this 'bling', it all does very little except improve profit margins. A NAV system may be indispensable for some, a 'must-have', but you surely don't think it costs Toyota 2 grand to put one in, especially when you can spend a few hundred on a Garmin and get much the same thing!

floridabob1

RE: 1243
It is unfair to compare a few hundred dollar portable Nav. system with a factory installed NAV. system. The cost to the manufacturer is irrelevant. Most manufacturers charge $2000 to over $2500 for their systems.
The "bling" is important to some buyers, and therefore most manufacturers offer different packages. These package options may it easier to fill the needs of different buyers.
When comparing prices of different manufacturers models be sure that they are similarly equipped.

captain2

I assume that the Avalon gets better mileage than the Azera?
Between 3 and 5 mpg, depending on your driving style and type. The Azera does have a few hundred more pounds to lug around. One of the better points of the Avalon in particular, there is nothing that rivals it (FE wise) if you consider the car's size and power. I get 27 mpg overall in my Avalon, under the same conditons - the smaller lighter (but almost as powerful) Sonata got me a tad under 24.

captain2

while I would personally have no use for a NAV system at any price, I don't understand why the comparison with a far cheaper handheld is 'unfair' - they both do the same thing and with one of them you can, at least, move it from car to car! Isn't it a fact, that the vast majority of drivers out there drive to the same places day-in/day-out, and therefore, don't need directions?

gamleged

I'm one of those who don't like to go somewhere without some advance study of where I'm to be going, so I do up/get from AAA some maps to take along, and I doubt that I'd ever be interested in a built-in NAV system, but I may eventually get a carry-around GPS someday for the gadget appeal, and to help me find just where at The Mall of The Americas I parked!...

tjc78

I stand corrected then! Didn't realize that the IS was quite that small. Even though, I still believe that the CTS shopper would be more likely to cross shop the IS heck maybe even the ES (same price range) than an Avalon.

hardhawk

That is quite a difference. Does the Avalon require premium fuel or will regular do? The difference in price can amount to several MPG according to what I have read.

joe131

Edmunds and US EPA show regular unleaded is recommended for both cars.
EPA shows combined (city and highway mix) fuel economy: 22 for Azera, 26 for Avalon.

plekto

The Avalon was originally tested with premium fuel, so the HP ratings with 87 octane gas will be a good 10-15HP lower(about 5-10%). But it will run just fine on it.

fordenvy

I'd buy the taurus any day over the toyota, ford has hit its quality mark on this vehicle. Wait is that unlawful to say quality and Ford in the same sentence, may be, but this is one of very few products Ford has come up with to compete in quality, even if its styling is meteocre. Think if the styling wasn't the way it is now, all the roominess inside would not have been achieved. Theres more room in that trunk then a cadillac deville.

captain2

The difference in price can amount to several MPG according to what I have read.
sure does, using the 22 for the Azera vs. the 26 for the Avalon and 15000 miles per year - the Avalon will burn 100 gallons less gas. That $250 only about enough to cover the extra interest that you would be paying on the higher loan amount. Where you can anticipate getting at least a good portion of your extra money back - 3 or 4 years down the road at trade-in time. This math also the reason why, for example, that even most hybrids won't show recovery of their premium costs in fuel expenses although just like the Avalon, they do tend to hold very high resale values which can make up the difference.
The Avalon runs fine on regular, incidentally - and have noticed some power drop-off but no FE difference. The Avalon running regular, is still likely the quickest car in this group - save for those gas hog V8s.

captain2

actually, the Avalon engine was originally rated at 280HP, the current 268 more reflective of what running regular and adding a PS pump costs (power wise). Consequences of the new SAE procedures that effected not only Toyota engines but Hondas as well as some others. So what you say is correct, but also the 268 is a pretty solid current number, as well. Using the premium will really get you more than that.

allmet33

Fordenvy, I really have to wonder what you know about cars to make a statement, "Think if the styling wasn't the way it is now, all the roominess inside would not have been achieved." If FoMoCo had the right people in their creative dept., they could very easily come up with better interior styling and maintain the roominess.

Face it, FoMoCo's niche is in trucks and Mustangs! Their family movers have ALWASY been less than inspiring. However, I will say that the current 500 is their best design to date!

captain2

Think if the styling wasn't the way it is now, all the roominess inside would not have been achieved
well yeah, and thank Volvo for that - the 500 impressed me on the showroom floor, it wasn't until I actually drove it that the bubble burst.
And no, Ford has not been a 'player' in the sedan market since the Taurus of the the mid 90s, as sales statisitics would indicate. FOR A REASON. If you really think that the 500/Taurus is or will be even half the car the Avalon is and has been, save a few thousand and buy one.

allmet33

Hey Captain...maybe some folks get an idea of a sedans popularity based on the fact that it's used as a fleet car in many industries! LOL

Sorry Fordenvy...the Taurus was simply a cheap, somewhat reliable family mover...basically the American Hyundai! Also, at one point...FoMoCo was handing out financing to anyone that could walk, crawl or roll into the dealerships to move their cars. They later found that to not be such a great move on their part.

Right now the most popular car FoMoCo has out is the Focus and that's because of it's tunability. The tuner enthusiasts love it because of the availability of the aftermarket parts made for it!