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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you wouldn't be interested in a straight up trade for an 05 Av Touring, would you? ;) Thought I'd try.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Good try... :P

    I think Avalon is the best among this group. I personally had drove the Impala, Magnum (same as charger & 300) before and there is no contest between those and Avalon. This car is definitely a sleeper on the road and has the ability to smoke a lot of the so call "performance sedans" out there at a red light.

    Good choice.

    PS, I also drove the Fusion before so I could imagine what a dog the 500 is.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Have you seen the new Honda commercial where a Camry and Sonata are deflated to point out resale value? Notice they aren't attacking Hyundai's reliablity record any more!!!

    All this talk about value, reliability, etc, reminded me of an auto dealer's ad in our local paper this past Sunday. The dealership sells Pontiacs and was advertising a lowball price on the G6. The line in the ad that caught my attention was something to the effect that

    "...Honda, Toyota, or Hyundai can't beat this!" :D

    Tells you what he thinks his competition is.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    appreciate that, my shopping list 2 years ago now, came down to a G35 and the TL and really the Avalon wasn't even on an interview list, that did include some "Detroit" models. Happened by a Toyota dealer, and they did have one (and only one) -it was like 'my gawd what have they done to the Avalon', just blew me away on the test drive - guess I really wasn't ready for 'a sports sedan' after so many years of Suburbans, of all things. Unfortunately I committed the cardinal sin of the car buyer - I fell in love! The G35 (a little small) and the just out M35 (too pricey) were both great drives (the TL left me unimpressed), and both the G or M would have helped with my onset of 'mid-life' crisis. Just like having the title to your IS would - sure you are not interested - last chance!.
    Anyway paid my 30 grand and still look forward to turning the key every morning.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    Your Avalon is 2006, right? What color is your Avalon? Did you find one with the specific options you were looking for?

    One thing I find retarded, how manufacturers blend in options into packages that don't make sense! Like the Touring and XLS have Stability control and heated seats paired! Why? One has nothing to do with the other! IMO, I wouldn't want heated seats because I've heard seats are more comfortable without them. But I would want VSC because safety is a priority to me! I know it really is a crap shoot trying to find a vehicle with select options but I would wait for an ordered one. Has anyone had an experience of ordering a new vehicle?
  • azgrandazgrand Member Posts: 50
    Has anyone seen the current issue of Motor Trend? They compare the Azera, Avalon, and Passat. I didn't get a chance to study the article (reading it at the grocery store), but they rated the Avalon first, Passat second, and Azera a close third. They complained about the understeer on the Azera, but were impressed with the engine smoothness, ride, interior, trunk space, and of course the value. It was marginally slower than the other two, which is to be expected with slightly less horsepower and a higher curb weight. I still have no qualms about my decision to buy the Azera. For real world driving, especially factoring in it was $5K less than the other two, I'm patting myself on the back.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'm patting myself on the back.

    You are flirting with getting buyer's remorse in the future.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no, actually an early 05 bought in 04-05, no. 4500 out of approx. 100000 built that year. I live in Texas and unfortunately that forces the Toyota buyer in this area to deal with GST (Gulf States Toyota) - which really means that things like Avalons are impossible to find without $1500-$3000 option packs which are largely worthless. I preferred the Touring for the way it drives (you can actually feel a bump) and for the no nonsense 'aluminum' trimmed interior - never was much on fake wood. It is silver, has a sunroof, upgraded sound system, homelink, and, of course those 'rip-off' protection packages. Fortunately (this would be a different story) it does not have VSC/TRAC (not available on the Touring at the time) or heated seats (obviously the only thing I need down here is good AC). Sticker was a tad over $31k, ended up getting a whole $800 off of it - largely because nobody had any and most folks were ordering them (and waiting months). Have kept an eye on pricing, and it has now become next to impossible to find even a Touring for much less than $33-$34k, including things like that VSC pkg. you are talking about and the 'profit' packs for GST, but I would imagine that they will 'deal' because inventories are much better. Depending on where you live, you may have difficulty getting an Avalon with precisely what you don't want on it courtesy of some of these independent distributors Toyota still has.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I believe the comparo you are talking about was quite awhile ago (maybe a year or so?) - and one of the few I can remember where the reviewers actually liked all the cars tested. The Azera for its value/cushy ride, the Passat for its handling/power, the Avalon (it was a Touring model) cited as providing the best balance of handling/ride, FE, and power.
    As for your 5 grand - that number may be a little low these days in terms of actual street prices - but remember that anything that is not paid up front will usually be 'returned' later. The Avalon does have the highest resale in this class.
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1054
    Given the actual current selling prices for the Azera, it is more than $5 k cheaper.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    louiswei...I've driven the '02 Sonata and currenty drive an '06 Azera, both vehicles feature the Shiftronic feature. The transmission is designed to shift conservatively in most cases, however...when you really step into the gas pedal, it doesn't shift when you would ultimately want it to.

    In both Hyundai vehicles I've driven with Shiftronic, the only time redline is really an issue is 1st & 2nd gears. All gears can be held up to redline and then a governor will automatically shift it for you if you don't to avoid any damage to the tranny. In MOST cases, 3rd gear would be the one you would want to hold and I haven't had any problems with doing it.

    I've spent some serious time getting to know the transmission in the Azera because it's a 5 speed and the Sonata had a 4 speed, so the shift points are way different. In the beginning with the Azera, I was holding a gear too long because I was used to the 4 speed shift points. Now that I'm used to my Azera, I'm sure I would probably shift too early if I drove a 4 speed Sonata at this point. However, I've learned to avoid the lag you speak of. It can be done.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    I beg to differ, if you're going to pin anything on improvement, it would have to be the Sonata as it is a long running car that has show vast improvement since it's inception. The Azera is a brand new vehicle that completely replaced the XG. So, no...I can't hang my hat on the Azera on the basis of improvement. If anything, I can hang my hat on the Azera to say that Hyundai is serious about being around for a long time. When it comes to reliablity, there are two vehicles you can really look at in the Hyundai line-up...the Sonata and the Elantra.

    CR may have the Azera rated higher at this point, but it's based on 1st year variables. The Azera took honors in initial quality, but as far as reliablity and dependability...it'll take more than 2 model years to chalk it up as 'ol reliable.

    You are right about perceptions and that is what's killing Hyundai right now. People don't see a lot of Azeras on the street and their perception is that it's not a good car. The Sonata, however, you see those like you see Accords and Camrys now...even the '06 model. As more and more people break rank and actually go test drive an Azera, they'll find that they are surprised that Hyundai actually makes a vehicle that will make you forget you're driving a Hyundai.

    My last two vehicles have been Hyundais and will never apologize to anyone for it, or feel bad about it either. The Sonata more than proved it's worth to me and the Azera has made me not even miss my Sonata.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the widely discussed Toyota trannies are perhaps a level or two higher in their sophistications, primarily to the software control functions that have 'intelligence' - which is where the problems lay. Most of us will drive these cars conservatively, rarely using half the power that is available to us, hard accelerations are rare. Compound that with a program that it also designed to maximize FE and what you end up with is a tranny that holds onto higher gears longer than it should (FE) and then has difficulty 'adjusting' to a sudden command for power (the computer aniticipating what it thinks you want to do). The net result is the 'hesitation' that has been widely publicized. But I am also like you, the 'car' has 'taught' me how IT wants me to drive it and as a result I have no real issues with it.
    These are things are the types of things I hear all the time these days on these newer ATs, isn't technology wonderful? Sooner or later, that computer in your car will be telling you when to make a 'pit stop' and shutting down the car until IT knows that you did. :D
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Passat is much smaller inside than the Azera or Avalon. Why would it be compared against them? Just because it is the same weight or price?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Actually...it's those with the Avalons that are talking of these issues. Personally, I don't have an issue with the transmission in my Azera, nor have I heard of anyone mention any complaints of the transmission either. So, by whose interpretation is it said that the Toyota trannies are a level or two higher than Hyundai trannies???

    The Shiftronic transmission in Hyundai vehicles is a learning transmission, so it learns from the driver. As you said, in most cases...the car will be driven conservatively. Yet, everyone's conservative is different, so each transmission will not be the same once it has learned a driver's "ways".

    Cars these days have indeed upgraded from the basic idiot lights on the dash that would light up for a plethora of reasons, now you've got cars that tell you specifically what it's needs are. Imagine a car pouting because you don't use a certain kind of gas in it! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the increased 'sophistication' is my interpretation simply because I don't think there is any doubt that the 'computers' in the Toyota/Lexus products have more 'control' of how the car operates and that is not just limited to tranny gear selections. Hell, Lexus has a thing called VDIM that "anticipates" an accident, tightens your seatbelts, cuts your throttle and puts on the brakes for you - lest you forget!
    Keep in mind that not all 'sophistication' and 'technology' is necessarily good - except for the marketing people and the unwitting consumer that will buy anything as long as it is new and 'improved' (or perhaps has the word 'safety' associated with it). If you bite into this whole thing and trust a computer to effectively make decisions for you, so be it - in my case, I think it is a particularily onerous path we all seem to be on! :cry:
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    It's not the tranny that's more sophisticated, it's the car itself that's more sophisticated simply because there's more overall computer input. You are right about the Lexus product, however...we aren't discussing Lexus right now. Also, we are talking about it being in the manual shift mode as well. In basic terms, the only thing the computer is controlling (or should I say enforcing) is the limit the rev governor is set at.

    In automatic mode, that's where the computer takes over to the point of engine management. However, the mechanics are basically the same, whether it's 4, 5, 6 or 8 speeds. The only time you can actually speak of sophistication is when you start talking CVT.

    You are right, in most cases, sophistication and technology is merely fluff with which marketing can appeal to the consumer's sense of getting more and receiving a better product than before.

    I'm with you, however...I think a better word here would be ominous! :surprise:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    remember when a 42" plasma cost $5000.00 and now can be had for less than a grand and everybody has one? That VDIM BTW also in the TCH - how long exactly will it be before it becomes cheap enough and PC to put these kind of things in everything - 15 minutes?
    Tomatoe/tomahto - same fruit?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, only difference now is the brand name attached to it. Cause I tell you my man...a 42" Pioneer plasma will still run you close to $5000.00!!! :sick:

    However, all of this is what leads me to believe that bang for buck, Hyundai is the best value running right now. No, it's not the best, however...it's no longer the worst either. They may not offer every bell and whistle a car can have, but what you do get for the money is still more than plentiful.

    In most cases, the Azera itself is just proving to be a taste of luxury that the everyday person, like myself, can afford and feel good about it too. Hyundai finally seemed to get the equation right and started making viable products that could seriously compete with the Japanese Big 3 and even cause them to look over their shoulders.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Cause I tell you my man...a 42" Pioneer plasma will still run you close to $5000.00!!!

    What?

    The Panasonic 42" plasmas was going for $899 on the last Black Friday. Now the same TV is around $1,500 for regular price and $1,200 after discounts.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah, but let Pioneer tell it...it's the end all, be all of plasma tv's. :confuse:

    I paid $845 for a 32" Sanyo LCD about 4 months ago. Walmart sells the Sanyo 42" plasma for $1248.00 and the Panasonic 42" plasma goes for $1497. BUT...they do have a 63" Philips plasma for $4998.00!!!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ever drive a BMW equipped with the now infamous I-drive - after 'agreeing' with the computer that it should not be used while driving, then you have to go thru half a dozen menus and submenus - to simply change a radio station! Guess it has been simplified somewhat since, but a good example of a frustrating overapplication of technology, one that most folks would agree is not good. A price equivalent of that Pioneer Elite you are talking about, because that car is not likely to provide anymore service to the buyer than your Azera or my Avalon even though that 530 (in this case) is one helluva machine...
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...you are right. Any car that you have to take a class on to operate is definitely not worth it in my book! However, can't say anything against the sheer performance of any of those BMW machines.

    It kills me that people want more power from cars and yet, they drive slow as molassaes when they get it. Do you know how many Vettes and Porsches I see ambling along in the right lanes of travel? LMAO Then, whizzing past in the left lane is a little tiny Chevy Aveo. :P
  • azgrandazgrand Member Posts: 50
    "I believe the comparo you are talking about was quite awhile ago (maybe a year or so?)"

    I didn't even check the date, but it was just yesterday so I doubt the grocery store is displaying year-old magazines???
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you must have bad eyesight - that was not an Aveo, it was really a Five Hundred with our very own barnstormer behind the wheel ;)
    I have no problem with folks driving slow as long as they are not creating a hazard doing so. A lot of accidents do happen due to folks taking unnecessary risks in efforts to get around them. Having the added power as a 'safety net' so to speak versus constantly using it are entirely different things. The former being much better than the latter, IMO.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Point well taken! LOL

    However, do you really think car companies are making these cars more and more powerful with power being a "safety net"? Actually, it's all a conspiracy...the auto makers keep the police coffers full with funds paid on speeding tickets! LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    maybe in the interest of getting us all (I might be one of the worst offenders) specifically back on topic try:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/9639/30000-family-sedans.html
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Hey, a detour is nice every once in awhile to break the monotony.

    Okay...I'm offended, they tested a Kia Amanti instead of the Azera!!!
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    Look at the date of the article; I don't believe the Azera was out at that time.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    look at the date, the Azera wasn't even available back in the summer of 2005 - the results for the Amanti likely more indicative of how an XG would have fared, Hyundai was discounting the heck out of them at that time, making space for the Azera.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    You're right, I was only playing. The XG would have surpassed the Amanti performance-wise as it's a much lighter car. However, the XG didn't make it because it had practically the same interior size as the 02-05 Sonatas, so it fit in the mid-sized category. That is why I couldn't pay the extra money to get the XG, just didn't seem worth it to get a car that was practically the same size. However, upgrading the Azera was definitely nice! :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the 05 XG350 weighs 3650 lbs. and had a whole 194hp out of that 3.5 - putting it in the same sort of lb./hp category as that champion of champions - the 500! Since it was a smaller car, it does point out something that the Koreans do seem to have a little trouble doing - building light.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Right, the Amanti weighs in at 4091 lbs. and I believe it only had 6 more ponies under the hood at 200 hp.

    Considering they are using a lot of steel, yeah...that's the secret to building cheaper!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    that may indeed be the 'secret' but that weight also requires more HP and usually will yield less FE. FE, more than power, is what really sells, and there are some cars in this group that do reasonably well at both...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    One way, thogh, to defeat the Lexus computers and shifting nonsense is... manually shift it yourself. I mean - manualy throw the gear lever itself around to whatever gear you want. The computer quickly shuts down and (correctly) figures you're trying to tell it to get stuffed. :P
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    One way, thogh, to defeat the Lexus computers and shifting nonsense is... manually shift it yourself.

    True. However, since the Lexus 6-speed auto tranny is so good I'll just let it shift for me. It can shift better than 99% of the people out there anyway (that 1% includes pros and ultra enthusiasts).
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    No doubt you are correct on that. There are a lot of variables that sell a particular car. I mean...Hummers are not considered FE in any stretch of the imagination and yet...they fly off the lots and you see them in droves. FE usually sells to those who are money concious. Some like me, who are passionate about cars...well, FE really becomes a small variable. Granted, there are a few cars out there the walk a fine line between power and FE, but they don't appeal to everyone. So...there are some that will forego FE to have a car that they want to be in.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    just curious then, from your comments, the IS350 apparently doesn't suffer from the 'rev runups between gears' widely reported in the 6 speed Camry/ES? Must be a different algorithim if that is the case, because I believe the trannies themselves are similar. Have thought that it has been a mistake not to make a 6 speed MT available on that car, a rocket capable of reaching escape velocity that much quicker!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Some like me, who are passionate about cars
    not that would be a somewhat strange comment since there are very few cars in this group (the 300C/Charger, maybe) that are generally even going to appeal to the enthusiast. Big FWD platforms that are usually soft 'isolation chambers' not generally high on any comparative vehicle dynamics scale, making that FE even more of a primary consideration. I doubt that anybody is out there buying an Azera (or an Avalon) because of how well it handles or brakes, or even the power they have - but they might look at that 4 mpg difference and balance that against initial cost and projected resale values?
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Oh, I'm not saying the cars mentioned don't appeal to many. However...everyone and their cousin has a 300/Charger around these parts (DC Metro). Not to mention Avalons are more than a dime a dozen. The Azera appealed to my visual senses, then I test drove it and it met my needs in the area of driving. No, it's not a performance maven and I wasn't looking for it to be. The biggest variable in all this was how bank account friendly the price was for what I was getting. The other issue was the potential for how good it would look dressed up (rims, tint and minor accessories). I don't like marching to everyone else's drum and so far...I think I've created a nice lil beat of my own. ;)

    FE really isn't a strain on me with this car as I was getting almost the same numbers with the Sonata I previously owned. As far as resale value...I'm planning on holding on to this car and driving it till the wheels fall off, so it's not really a factor in my book.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What's this "rev runups" thing?

    As for no MT in the IS...I think from a maximizing profit stand point of view it is not a mistake. However, by not having the 6-MT, Lexus did drive away many enthusiasts whom are interested in an capable 3-series fighter.

    Let's just look at the facts...

    Out of all the 3-series BMW sold, only 30% or less are equipped with manual tranny. I would say that number for a Lexus will be much lower (around 20% or less). Currently the IS250 out sold IS350 around 7 to 3 and if Lexus wants to sell around 10,000 a year that means only 3000 of them will be the 350 version. 20% of that would be 600. I guess Lexus could sacrifice those 600 sales in order to drive down the manufacturing cost and in the end they'll end up to be more profitable.

    Okay, enough math now let's get back to large sedans...
  • yeayea628yeayea628 Member Posts: 3
    My family owns several large sedans of various makes:
    mother owns a Toyota Avalon-son owns a Chevrolet Impala SS-
    I own a Chrysler 300 Touring. I have to say that all three are very nice, heavy vehicles with plenty of get up and go! While the Impala is on the lower price end it is no less nice or no less reliable than my mom's Avalon (read:Lexus).
    Coming from me-the anti chevrolet person in the family that is a real compliment! They are all worth considering!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's not make this personal, please. If you think a post is out of line either ignore it or drop me an email and I will take care of it. Thank you.
  • hardhawkhardhawk Member Posts: 702
    The changes coming for the 2008 Ford 500, due out early this summer, look promising. The 260 HP new engine will be a greatly needed improvement, and it looks like all models, including the AWD, will have the 6 speed transmission rather than the CVT. There are suspension changes, as well as the front and rear end, plus some interior and equipment changes. Yes, it is still a conservative car, but with a decent engine combined with the passenger and luggage space it has, it should show up on a lot more people's radar screens than the old version did. Too bad they don't bring back the SHO performance version like the old Taurus by dropping in a performance engine and suspension.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    hope you are right, FoMcCo needs a succesful car, and the 500 at least in terms of design, is a good start. The 3.5 should solve the HP deficiency but may do nothing for the same sort of refinement issues that the 3.0 is famous for - have read conflicting reviews on the subject. It surprises me that the CVT is being eliminated, the 6 speed known to have some 'gear hunting issues' - perhaps this is because the CVT won't handle the HP/torque increase. The engine/drivetrain for your SHO (SVT) version already is out there - it's called a S80 and is equipped with a Yamaha V8, much in the same way that the old SHO Taurus had a Yamaha V6. Deja Vu?
  • pahefner01pahefner01 Member Posts: 202
    Thanks Pat. I didn't know we could do that. I'll keep it in mind for the future.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    :)
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    What will be the mpgs for this engine? If it doesn't match the mpgs the Azera does, IMO, it wouldn't be worth it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't know for sure, as the car is not available for another several months, and TMK has not been tested. The similarily weighted MKZ is rated at 19/29 with the 3.5, about the same as the Azera - but I'm not sure, at this point, that it will match it in terms of engine smoothness/transparency. But, even with the 3.5 the 500 will have a tough time outvaluing the Azera (Ford could not likely afford to do that)- as all the other cars in this group do as well - mostly because the mfgrs. have no need to.
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