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Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

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Comments

  • lfagiuslfagius Member Posts: 3
    I agree with you and yet the Grand Marquis out sold the Montego last year more than 2 to 1, exactly 51,123 to 20,591 (sales figures courtesy of Automotive News, and that's also with zero Sables to cannibalize Montego sales). Go figure.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the GM/CV will be the traditional 'what I grew up with' ride for many primary older folks and that market will always be there - for those buyers that want to look at something more contemporary and more fuel and space efficient, the Montego/500 comes up well short primarily in the engine compartment.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Already figured. Cops and other government types buy these cars.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Already figured. Cops and other government types buy these cars.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Old people still die nowadays, right?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    some 70 year old is probably paying cash for his $20k well optioned Marquis, and Ford, at that point, wouldn't care if that buyer lives to drive the thing or not - the sale has been made.
    Sure, if you discount the cop car/corporate fleet sales, I would imagine that the Montego in this cases really outsells the GM. But, somebody needs to make 'em.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ever been to NYC, a sea of yellow CVs!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    I see more and more Dodge Chargers showing up as patrol cars. Wonder if they will prove as reliable as the CV/GM.

    P.s. you forgot the second most popular vehicle in NYC black Town Cars! lol

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    this one is somewhat interesting, the hemi Charger especially would seem like a natural fit - but has been having suspension problems so equipped. Police cars are certainly abused, and if there is one thing good about a CV it is that they are easier and cheaper to fix, anybody that understands 'lefty loosey' can handle it...
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the hemi Charger would seem like a natural fit, but TMK has had some problems with rear suspensions, especially alignments. Police cars are really abused, one thing about those CVs - they are easier and cheaper to fix - as anybody that has met 'lefty loosey' can attest
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Almost no Grand Marquis sales are to Police departments - they want the Crown Vic instead(no need for the extra chrome and bling, afterall).

    But they'll keep selling them for a long, long time. Because they are decent cars, reliable, and of course, not really that bad for the money.

    Cars direct pricing, Pasadena, CA.
    2007 Model - Net Cost: $18,379

    This includes about $800 in delivery as well, so the actual "sticker" price ends up being about $17,500. For $20K out the door, it's a lot of car - and why the govt buys tons of them - and will as long as Ford continues to make them.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Yeah...the Charger is becoming the new police fleet vehicle. Not a bad choice really...definitely beats the dull boring Crown Vics that we've seen for umpteen decades.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    do you really think that that American car buyer and especially those that are Ford loyalists are ready to accept the Taurus as Ford's 'flagship'.
  • jaymagicjaymagic Member Posts: 309
    The article was about a year ago. (Motor Trend subscriber). I now have an 07 Azera Limited/Ultimate and I cannot say enough about how much I love this car. Had an Avalon XLS and the Azera so far has every bit of the build quality of the Avalon. The only area in which the Avalon is superior is MPG. I am currently getting 22-23 in town (I know some are reporting less, but that's what I am getting and it includes a lot of slow speed snow and ice driving here in Denver). I have seen 28 on the road, with speed up in the 80's. I think the Avalon, based on my experience probably got 1 MPG better. By the way, I use regular unleaded. 85 octane here in Mile High Denver.

    I got mine for under $27,000 and I could not touch a new Avalon Limited (even without Nav) for under $32,000. No problems at all, so far, with about 3,000 miles on it.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    I'm 40 years old, and on my 2nd Grand Marquis. They flat out run forever, easy for shadetree mechanics like myself to maintain, solidly built and engineered, are quiet, comfortable, and get plenty of respect on the road. Plus, easy to speed in and never get caught. Gas mileage is not that bad either.

    I buy them used and run them for years - which will take a while since they easy run up to 200,000 miles. I bought my last one fully loaded with bucket seats, console, dual exhaust, etc. Certified Used, with 40,000 miles for $12,000.

    They are an old design that could use some updating, but still the best car for the money by far, unless you are obsessed with what the beautiful people think, or like to own a lot of pointless technology on your vehicles.

    Plus, with the money I save by paying cash for a long lasting vehicle, the wife and I are going to Europe for two weeks this fall. ;)
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE:1163
    If you are getting 22-23 mpg city, someone is adding gas to your tank while you are sleeping, or you are only driving down hill.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    I've met his cousin, Righty Tighty... :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    pletko - I think we all understand they are cheap to buy and further cheap to fix. They are also way too heavy, are dynamically inferior, have preposterously low resale values, and suck fuel like there is no tomorrow. I just don't understand why there aren't lines at the Ford/LM dealers ;)
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    most of those driving the Crown Vics/Grand Marquis vehicles are those in their retirement years or the wannabe thugs buying them from police auctions. Other than that...those cars do not appeal to the masses. Granted, they are large cars for under $30K, but come on now...be for real here!!!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You can fully option out the top trim Marquis with every possible option you can, and it will still barely hit 26K after the current rebate(there's always one going on on this model).

    And with all the goodies, it's quite comparable to a buick Lucerne or full-size Hyundai or simmilar. It's anything but a stripped-down police cruiser.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    Ummmmmmm...sorry, but the Marquis is compariable to an Azera in WHICH way?
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    Your right, not a stripped down car at all. However here are a few things about it you may not know in terms of equipment relative to the models here:

    No premium audio system (JBL, Bose, ETC) just Ford's "premium" not that great IMO.

    Good luck finding one with a sunroof
    NO stability control
    NO Nav
    NO memory seating
    NO cooled seats

    And best of all its a 1992 model. With the exception of changing to rack and pinion steering ('03?) it is the exact same car. Same engine, trans, rear, suspension. The frame dates back to 1979! No matter how great a deal the vehicle is most people don't want "dinosaurs." I have owned a GM and occasionally drive an '04 (Grandpas) and can tell you it can't hold a candle to the vehicles in this discussion. Go take one out and floor it, the 4.6 is rough and noisy. Even my grandfather comments how much quieter my Avalon is.. however I can't convince him to buy one.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    it's quite comparable to a buick Lucerne or full-size Hyundai or simmilar
    no - actually the Azera, in particular, would be a REAL car - don't know anything printable that I could term the GM.
  • allmet33allmet33 Member Posts: 3,557
    The only way the Lucerne can hold a candle to any of them is if you get the V-8 model which would then push the Lucern over the $30K threshold. So really...the Lucerne really can only be mentioned as far as it's size goes, cause the V-6 is TERRIBLE, comparable to the current Ford 500's engine. LOL
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    well maybe they will get around to putting the 3.6 in the thing effectively making the Northstar a waste of money.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sure, it's not an Avalon, but for under $20k... Or could you rather have a crummy Grand Prix?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    you can get a really nice v-6 Sonata for under $20k.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    For under $20 k, you also get a real frame and a bulletproof drivetrain. A Sonata may be more "modern", but this is a case where they certainly don't build cars to the same durability as before.

    As an aside, if you ever need a power window motor or regulator for a Grand Marquis, they interchange with the Ford F-150 - ditto for fuel pumps, etc. The platform is overbuilt for a passenger car - designed back when Ford had pride in their flagship sedan, and designed it accordingly. Too bad Ford cannot even design a sedan anymore themselves in the United States.

    For a while I owned my old 94 Grand Marquis and a 2000 Dodge Intrepid. I gave up about 1 mpg to drive the Grand Marquis, but it was an eye opener to see how cheaply modern vehicles are designed - Computer Aided Design allows the bare mininum specs to be met to save 3 cents here, and 4 cents there.

    I put a jack under the front bumper on the frame of the Dodge, and when I jacked it up, it bent the frame! I'd hate to try that with a Sonata.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    I don't think the durability was ever an issue here about the GM. So what if parts are interchangeable, that happens with other maufacturers too. The car has its purpose, but as a "family" sedan I think its time has passed. From what I have read Ford is producing the GM through 2010, and after that the future could be something based off of the Mustang platform. If that happens I think they may have something.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I'd surely rather have one than a SUV if I had kids. The thing is, it fits 6 people. 6 real people. Who needs a bloated, expensive, and top-heavy SUV when this holds the same number of people(if you need a thrid row - to actually carry 7+people, just get a Surburban)

    Better mileage and handling than most SUVs as well. And personally, I love how quiet it is. 40mph? 60mph? The only thing that changes is the speed of the scenery. :)

    And, old-tech is good. The Volvo 140/240 series was approaching 30 years when it was finally dopped. But it was a cheap to fix tank of a car - and solid in a crash. The GM/TC/CV are the last of the non-computer designed old-school vehicles left(outside of a commercial truck or military vehicle like a Unimog - lol). It's massively overbuilt - like say, buying a GMC 3500 and using it to go to the grocery store. You'll never ever punish it enough to break anything in the drivetrain.

    And the thing has a frame - it can *tow* like a small truck. Nice trunk as well. My only gripe with it is that it doesn't have a fold-down rear seat. But the trunk is big enough to fit a Superbowl-sized cooler or two in it(shoot, fit everything you need for a tailgate party and then some), so that's a minor problem.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    before you go jacking up your car nowadays, you'd better read your owner's manual. you can't just put the jack any old place under the car unless you want to damage something.
    dont be so lazy, read your manual
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    before you get into pletko too much, understand that what he is referring to is the full ladder frame generally used in these older (ancient) car (and truck) designs as opposed to the unit body used in all the cars in this forum where the sheet metal is actually part of the 'frame'. It is one of the reasons why something that a GM weighs more than 2 tons!
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    #1: Toyota Avalon

    #2: Hyundai Azera

    Also ran: Ford 500, Mercury Montego, Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Buick Lucerne... ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Azera is defn. the sleeper of the class, with the best scores of predicted reliability and ownership satisfaction.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    No Bluetooth or available factory nav in this class is not competitive for the Azera. Keyless ignition would also be nice now that cars like the Altima have that feature.
    At least they finally made XM available.
    Lack of an aux input is outrageous however.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The thing about the Avalon is that it's really really expensive. $30K is well, maybe you could find a base model with nothing on it for $29K and change, but it's essentially too pricey for this discussion.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    The Maxima is in the same EPA size class as Nissan's Sentra and Versa. So why is Maxima even included in this large car discussion?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I fail to understand how the void of some of the features in the US market make the Azera an un-competitive car. While those features might be desirable for some, I don't believe for most it would be a deal-breaker. Case in point, less than 8% of all vehicles delivered are equipped with factory navigation, for various reasons. And while on the subject, portable ones, such as Garmin (which can be found at Hyundai dealers), are seeing a tremendous jump in sales. If one is in need for those features, there is always the aftermarket scene.

    Based on most of the reviews and road tests, including from my own, the Azera is VERY MUCH competitive with the rest of the class, with or without some of the fancy features. I simply pointed the facts, as the Azera scored the highest in predicted reliability and ownership satisfactions among its competitors, two of the more important and relevant categories for CR readers.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The Azera is trying to be a pseudo near-luxury large sedan in the class of at least the Toyota Avalon. More than the average amount of cars in that class have these extra luxury features.
    Without the availability of things like that, the Azera is little more than a bloated Sonata.
    You can use a portable nav system as a way to save money on the average car, but in premium class cars, you expect it to at least be a factory option. You can always choose to not buy a fully loaded model if you don't want nav, HIDs, Bluetooth, memory seats etc..
    You can buy a base Avalon without these things or you can buy a fully loaded XLS or Limited with them. Even a Camry is available with nav, push start and Bluetooth.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    So who cares if Azera doesn't have factory nav? Just a few buyers probably. So what if they eliminate Azera from their near luxury large car shopping lists?
    The Azera is an obvious competitor to Avalon in nearly everyone else's minds. Size, luxury, performance are all very close. That Azera can be purchased for less money than Avalon just makes it even more of a competitor to the Toyota.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Then your definition of competitive is far different than mine.

    There are reasons why the Azera did not initially offer these features at launch, and the right decisions. With prices already creeping north of $30K when come loaded, certainly it would take consumers some time to adjust with the past stigma (which the transition doesn't come overnight). FYI - Hyundai has these features in its home market and others, so making them available in the US would not be too difficult, as long as it is determined the benefits would outweigh the cost factors. IIRC, Hyundai USA's job 1 is to improve the quality and reliability, which we know it has done a great job so far.

    Again, the Azera's a competitive car. Why? Among other reasons, it possess one of the best values in this class, similar to the rest of the ranges Hyundai USA offers.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Not everyone wants factory nav. It is a luxury. But that is the point of cars in the class.
    Just buy a Sonata instead since the Azera adds little in features. The Azera has a bigger engine to pull the extra bulk around plus more fake plastic-wood interior trim. No great advantage.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    So is it fair to say just buy a Camry instead since the Avalon adds little in features. Maybe, maybe not, but I'd invite you to compare the Sonata the Azera, and you might just possibly see the differences between the two.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "Not everyone wants factory nav. It is a luxury. But that is the point of cars in the class."

    Maybe Hyundai determined offering the Nav units for the US market would not be beneficial, just maybe the add-in cost outweigh the potential sales and budgeted revenue. I have no problem with Hyundais' reasons, whatever they may be, whether it had been the cost issue (above), or the stigma/perception vs. increased price (from the other post), or any other reasons, my understanding, as Hyundai is in the business to make a profit. I am indifferent, regardless whether it is offered or not. Ironically, I have NAV in my car (dealer threw in the package as he owed me a favor), and to date, I have had little or no use for it.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It is not all about Nav. There is a laundry list of missing features from Bluetooth to ventilated seats that should be available in a car that is supposed to be a class above the Sonata.
  • jcm68jcm68 Member Posts: 33
    WOW! Brilliant! A car is better because it offers a Nav system and Bluetooth !!!

    I got my New Azera Limited for just $23K...........

    As a previous 06 Sonata LX owner, I can honestly say that my 06 Azera is significantly class above the Sonata.

    Now, you tell me what can you get from Toyota or Honda for just $23K? Now compare it with what The Azera Limited offers.............

    I Rest my case.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    $23,000 for an Azera Limited? Out the door or plus TT&L ?Sounds great!
    What was the MSRP?
    Did you have a trade-in?
  • floridabob1floridabob1 Member Posts: 1,190
    RE: 1198
    I agree that the top of the line model of a manufacturer attempting to enter the "near luxury" game should have available all of the bells and whistles that the company can provide. If they wish to hold the price down, these features could be made available as options.
    I hope that in the near future they make available the features that are currently in the Korean version of the Azera.
    I believe that the "hold back" was an initial marketing decision to keep the "loaded" price under 30k.
    The Azera will soon be going into it's third year in the US.
    It's time to uncover all of the guns.
    For those wishing to hold the price down, don't order the extras, if Hyundai choses to make them available as options.
  • gamlegedgamleged Member Posts: 442
    "The Azera is trying to be a pseudo near-luxury large sedan..."

    Now that right there is funny, I don't care what you say! :D Don't like a car? Redefine it in your own words in an attempt to belittle the car as somehow less that it actually is!

    Lessee, earlier in this thread there was doubt expressed that the Azera was a "large sedan," but that doubt was properly dismissed by reference to the official governmental listing of what the criteria was for inclusion in the "large sedan" category.

    Now, the long-established Consumer's Union (through the periodical, Consumer Reports) confirms their agreement that the Azera is a large sedan, and not only that, they place it in the #2 position above the Ford 500 & etc.!

    That's got to be disheartening to some... :P
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