Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison

captain2

allmet - if you had asked me what I thought about Hyundai products a few years back you would have gotten some much different comments than you have been reading lately. They are, indeed, getting their act together. And they deserve some kudos for building what is one of the most advanced and efficient plants in the world - in Alabama (currently for the Sonata/Santa Fe) and 'pumping' money back in our economy.

tjc78

The 3.5 in the Avalon and Camry are the exact same design, and share almost everything. This design as others have said dates back to late '04 in the '05 Avalons. You mean to tell me that Toyota would short change its best selling vehicle by 20 or so HP, and only matched the power spec in the Avalon to compete with the '06 Sonata? Come on, the much simpler solution was to copy the Avalon's power plant, which they did and intended to do from the start.

louiswei

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...but as you said, they knew that the 2GR was going to be in there, so a smaller power plant wouldn't have a problem fitting in there, right?

I don't understand what are you trying to say here...

Okay...back to square one.

Do you agree that the new Avalon was debut around the same time as the 06' Sonata?

Yes - keep reading.
No - discussion over.

If both came out around the same time and Avalon's 2GR has 268HP how can you make a case that the 2GR was originally designed for lower output? Also, how can you make a case about the might 06' Sonata force the Camry to get the 2GR and Toyota to enter the HP war?

You are right, I am speculating as much as you do but apparently I have stats and history to back me up with.

pat

Let's find our way back to the large sedans and hop over to Auto News for these brand debates. Most of you are already discussing these things over there anyway.

allmet33

Captain...I would have to agree on that. When I bought my '02 Sonata, it was more out of necessity than want. I had recently totalled my '96 Camry (which I LOVED by the way) and I had owned two previous Toyotas before...I loved Toyota. However, for a Camry comparably equipped to match the Sonata I ended up with...Toyota wanted $23K, I only paid $16,800 for the Sonata. However, in the 4 years that followed, the Sonata made me forget all about the Camry I had and gave me a new perspective on Hyundai's products.

Now, I've heard of all the problems folks have with the service departments and on that issue, I got lucky. The dealership where I bought mine from had a great service department with folks that were knowledgable as well as personable. Never had any mechanical issues that were left unexplained or service problems with idiot techs.

Like I've said before, Hyundai is slowly shedding that bad image they have carried for so long. No, it won't happen overnight, and no, not everyone will believe. However, Hyundai is quickly becoming a respectable product name and folks aren't too quick to scoff at them any more.

The ONLY reason I jumped on my '06 Azera was because of the experience I had with my '02 Sonata. I didn't think twice when I purchased my Azera and so far...I haven't felt a need to 2nd guess my decision either.

allmet33

I didn't say Avalon, I said Camry. Sheesh!!!

I never, ever said that the Hyundai 3.8 is a match for the 2GR. It'll be a long, long time before Hyundai ever makes an engine that has Toyota scratching their heads. However, the leaps and bounds that Hyundai has made with their engines is very kudos worthy.

captain2

how about this - Toyota has 2 sedans in 2004, that are essentially identical, both with 200hp V6s, one of which is called the Avalon is the 'flagship' and is slugging along at 3000 sales/ month, the other is called a Camry and it is the best selling car in the US, at more than 30000/month despite being 'limited' power wise. Toyota already had this new engine designed (obviously a solid entry in the HP race) - oh dear - what to do? Maybe exactly what they did do - put the engine in the Avalon, a completely new car not even related to the Camry anymore, and change something had been talked about in the same sentences as Buick, into something completely different - sales jumped from 3000 to about 10000/month. I think it even surprised them and for quite awhile you couldn't even find one on the lots. And, in the process, Toyota can now use their experiences gained in the Avalon before they 'take a chance' by putting the engine in the best selling car in the country and several other models - sounds like a pretty solid plan to me?
Derate the engine for use in the Camry? WHY? Instead they can set a new standard, one that still exists to this day?

allmet33

Okay...now you're muddying your history and stats. Actually, the Avalon with the 2GR debuted (as an '05) before the '06 Sonata, and the 2Gr had 280 HP. Discussion over!

Then, Hyundai dropped the Sonata with 240 HP, and then the Azera with 263 HP. Funny, THEN Toyota decides to show up with the Camry with the 2GR pumping 268 HP. Am I right? Thank you...discussion over.

So really...you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP. Toyota probably could have designed it any way they wanted to give any output they desired...now isn't that on of the purposes of the design of the 2GR?

My question is this, do you have any stat or history to prove that had Hyundai not dropped the 263 HP Azera, that Toyota would have still given the Camry a 268 HP output? No...discussion over, thank you very much!

Oh yeah, and what I was saying is...the re-designed Camry intially came out with a smaller engine, right? They did the re-design with the 2GR in mind, right? Do I need to simplify for you? The re-designed Camry had an engine bay bigger than what the current engine needed because Toyota knew they were going to eventually put the 2GR in it! DUHHH! No need to re-work anything, just drop the 2GR in and keep on going!

louiswei

The 280HP is non-SAE rated and 268HP is SAE rated. At end of the day, they have the SAME OUTPUT.

No, the re-designed Camry did NOT initially come out with a smaller engine. It came out with the current 268HP 2GR-FE which is about 99.9% same as the one on Avalon.

The 06' Camry is the old model.
The 07' is the new model.

Why would Toyota drop the 2GR into the 06' when 07' is just around the corner? I really don't understand what your point is.

As matter of fact, since Avalon was introduced before the might 06' Sonata with the 268HP 2GR it further solidified my "speculation" that Hyundai did NOT force Toyota to enter the HP war.

captain2

you're a bit turned around in what you've been saying here. The 2GR shows up first in the Avalon with an output of 280 HP. Then, to go in the Camry, they have to re-work it and ease the output a bit down to 268 HP
Nope again, Toyota didn't 'rework or ease' the HP on anything, the 12hp decrease was NOT a result of any engine change - it was simply a result of SAE testing method changes qand rules and effected primarily Honda and Toyota products for the 06 model year.

jaymagic

Stating first my happy ownership of an Azera (having had an Avalon and an XG350L), let me join in by saying I do think Hyundai has been more of a follower than a leader (except with warranties, which its previously lousy build/repair record forced).

The new version Avalon was out with the 2GR engine a year before the Sonata or Avalon. But who cares. What Hyundai seems to do is to let other brands bring out a technology, then improve it, see what the public thinks, and then Hyundai offers it for less money, or on more of its models. Vehicle Stabilization or Hyundai's Electronic Stability Control is an example. The first time I had it it was in an 00 Avalon XLS, where it was standard equipment with that trim. I loved it. I noticed that the next year, it became an option even on the highest content Avalon. (I think it put the Avalon too close to Lexus territory). What Hyundai has done is to put it in virtually all its models (high and low) as standard equipment. No other manufacturer I am aware of, has done that. It might be fair to say that Hyundai follows technology from other brands and then leads in making it more readily available.

I know the engine in the concept Genesis is a brand new one for Hyundai (but making a V8 is not exactly a new technology). What I expect is for Hyundai again to take "high end" technology like adaptive cruise control, HID lights, heated and cooled seats, etc., and offer them in a vehicle for far less than other brands are charging. I doubt any thing on the "Genesis" will be bleeding edge, but expect it to be within view of cutting edge and all of it tested, well built, and amazingly affordable for all we will get.

Is that leading or following. In my mind it is a little of both, Hyundai is not an "early adaptor", but they now do a very decent job of copying and refining, and then lead in bringing it out on a wider scale at a better price. And they are now building cars of quality.

That is what Toyota and others have to worry about. They must worry about the amount they spend on research and development to be cutting edge (bleeding being left to the Germans) and getting the public to want the technology and then having Hyundai (and I assume others like the Chinese) then building on what they developed and selling it without having had the massive up front development costs.

Previously, I think Toyota under the Lexus Division did exactly the same thing to BMW and MB as Hyundai is now doing to Toyota. And we have all benefited from that tactic (unless you have stock in or work for Ford, GM, or Chrysler).

allmet33

:blush: Oh my...you are right about the Camry issue. Sorry.

However...you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know.

Maybe Hyundai, specifically, didn't force them into the HP wars, however...the timing of everything sure makes it look like they did!!!

Heck...if it wasn't for Nissan and Honda jumping the way they did, they would all be plugging along!

allmet33

Very well stated!!!

allmet33

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...wrong, the stated output for the Avalon is 280 HP, the Camry...268 HP. It must be as such or Toyota will face a class action law suit like Hyundai did over the HP discrepancy concerning the 02-03 models.

captain2

you still don't have an answer as to what they might have done had Hyundai not dropped a 263 HP Azera! The answer is...you don't know
actually, I think I do, and I believe the answer is that they couldn't care less, the XG 350, at that time not being competitive to the old Avalon in their minds, never mind the new one. Same really applies to the Sonata as well, Toyota (however mistakenly) is much more concerned with what Honda and Nissan are doing. The well conceived Azera, OTH, a much different color of horse, IMPO.

jaymagic

Whoops, meant the 2GR was out before the Sonata or AZERA.

BTW, are there any car companies that have not significantly made available increased HP over the last 5 years??? Finally even Ford has upped the HP in the 500/Taurus.

If the race is on, then the Bugatti Veyron with 1000HP has won. Of course, I could not afford to insure it, let alone own it. So, what is the point of who got to whatever hp first???

imidazol97

Do you have a torque graph for that motor? The torque at low speeds is what makes the driving experience.

captain2

had to do with fuel type and a power steering pump among a few other things. I guarantee you that there is no difference between my '280hp' Avalon engine, and the 268hp engines in the 06s/07s or FTM the 07 Camry. There were some 05 Avalon owners that somehow felt 'cheated', believe it or not - but it is, after all, only a number!

jaymagic

I can't think of a single reason to knock the Avalon. It's a great car and real value versus so many others that are out there. (Now the Buick is another matter).

I also feel the same about the Azera and believe, having had both and driven a new 06 AV Limited a fair amount that the Azera is QUITE close to the Avalon and is a much better value for me. I just do not think the Avalon is $4K-$5K better And yes, I understand the resale issue, but I still had to come up with that $4,900 difference (in my case), and I could not justify it.

tjc78

Let's face it, you cannot go wrong with any of the four cars you mentioned. I think it can be broken down like this:

Maxima - Sportiest
Azera - Best Value
Lucerne - Softest ride, old school bullet proof technology
Avalon - best compromise in terms of power, ride, handling and economy (in this class of course).

jaymagic

I would be willing to go with that analysis as a decent generality. I can even believe that there are some who may even like the looks of the Buick the best (us older geezers).

captain2

now that I like - except that us 'old geezers' might just surprise you once in a while! The Avalon buyer median age used to be 63 - several years older than me. But the car sold relatively well because it offered a lot of what a Buick did - right up to and including bench seats and column shifters - with the Toyota name and associated reliability and resale values. Can imagine that some of those faithful (and older) Avalon customers were scared away by the '05 when it came out. 'Scaring the bejeepers out of poor ole Gramps' by simply pushing the accelerator too hard, perhaps. Conservative Buicks (and FTM cars like the CV/Grand Marquis) still remain, however, for those that really like 'slow and docile' but would bet that you'll see less new Avalons in the retirement community parking lots than you used to..

allmet33

If others looked at this way too, there would be a lot less debate.

I agree...you can't go wrong with any of those 4, but it boils down to why you are buying and what you're expecting.

If you want the sporty, harder ride...the Maxima gives you that. It's not a luxury ride, so the inside isn't going to be what you'll find in the Avalon or the Azera.

If you want luxury, but you don't want to spend a lot for it...the Azera is your choice. It doesn't have an overly soft ride, yet...you're not inclined to throw it into curves on a twisty road either. The fit and finish for the Azera belies it's value as you definitely get more for your money (materially).

If you want sound luxury, fuel economy and top notch technology with a proven reliability track record...the Avalon gives all of that to you. However, you do pay a little bit more for it.

Then...if the foreign entries aren't your cup of tea and you want to keep your money in domestic hands, the Lucerne and even the upgraded 500 are strong offerings too.

allmet33

Actually...you are correct, both the Avalon and the Camry are putting out the same HP for '07. Honestly...that sucks!!! As an Avalon owner, I would feel cheated in that. A flagship car sharing what someone could pay much less for (in a sense).

What's really sad, is...the Camry is not far off when it comes to the innner dimensions from the Avalon. THAT...really sucks.

That's what I faced when I bought my '02 Sonata. The XG at the time was practically identical in size (interior), but offered a few more amenities and about 20 more HP. If I was gonna spend that much more...the car should have offered more.

That being said, I'm starting to beleive that a fully loaded Camry is a better value than a fully loaded Avalon! :surprise: The Avalon has a few things that the Camry doesn't, only gains an inch or two here and there on the interior, almost equal trunk space and the Camry is a bit lighter which means a bit better FE. Yeah...the true value would be with the Camry. Avalon owners are beign cheated on this one! LMAO

joe131

Wish you guys would just drop it or make a new forum for it if you think it really exists.

allmet33

You're funny!

joe131

By all means, if you can't tell the difference between 2 cars, buy the cheaper one. Makes sense.

allmet33

You can tell the difference in how they look, but when you really break them down and start comparing numbers and other statistical data...that's where they become almost twins. In that case...you're right!!!

joe131

Hahaha! Hardly twins described below:

2002 XG 350 3.5 liter 194@5500 and a torque rating of 216@3500.

2002 Sonata 2.7 liter 170 @6000 HP Torque: 181 @4000 ft-lbs

Performance specs from Edmunds Comparison tests:

XG 350 beat 2 out of 3 2002 competitors in the races. It beat the automatic Camry V6 and the manual transmission Passat GLX V-6. The then new 240 HP Altima 3.5 SE was the quickest with a 0-60 mph time of 7.4 seconds and a 1/4 mile time of 15.5 seconds.
(In another 5 car comparison test, Sonata was a distant 5th place loser.)

XG 350
3.5 liters motor
194 HP at 5500 RPM
216 torque at 3500 RPM
7.7 seconds 0-60 MPH
15.9 seconds 1/4 mile
127 ft. 60-0 braking
60.6 mph slalom
18/26 city/hwy EPA MPG

Sonata
2.7 liters motor
170 HP at 6000 RPM
181 torque at 4000 RPM
9.1 seconds 0-60 MPH
16.8 seconds 1/4 mile
132 ft. 60-0 braking
60.0 mph slalom
19/27 city/hwy EPA MPG

XG 350 has 103 cubic feet for passengers, 15 for luggage.
Sonata has 100 cubic feet for passengers, 13 for luggage.

allmet33

Hey Joe...I did this when I was looking at the '02 models. From a money standpoint, the XG didn't discerne itself enough to justify me paying the extra money for it.

Also, I didn't buy for racing either.