You must consider this: people are willing to spend 36-37K on a BMW 325 or a Lexus IS250 which have engines that cannot compare to the new 3.5L V6 in the Type-S. So if Acura charged a couple grand above this, with all these added features, you are technically getting value. Plus the fact that the ASPEC package usually cost 4500-5000 to begin with, and it seems that all those features + more are already included on this car. This car can easily sell for $38K-40K(40K including navigation), but I do agree it would be a killer with SH-AWD.
A 36-37K IS250 is LOADED with every goodies available plus the keyless entry, push button, radar cruise and pre-colision which the TL-S won't have and is still at 2K below the TL-S. However, to put all the toys and gadgets aside at least the IS and Bimmer are RWD which to me makes them more "legit". I believe there are a lot people whom disagree with me but I think it's crazy to spend almost 40K on a FWD car regardless how loaded it is. However, if the TL-S comes with SH-AWD at the same price then it's a bargain.
"I think it's crazy to spend almost 40K on a FWD car regardless how loaded it is. However, if the TL-S comes with SH-AWD at the same price then it's a bargain."
Agreed, but better yet, make the TL-S (and TL) RWD. Lighter weight, less expensive and more performance oriented than the luxo-RL.
At $32k, my 2004 TL 6-speed gave me enough performance, value and utility compared to the 330i and G35 to accept the compromises of FWD. But at $40k, with a performance oriented packaging and a more powerful engine, FWD is just STUPID. With all of the ground up engineering that went into the hand built, limited production $32k S2000, you would think someone at Acura would figure out that a $40k FWD "sport sedan" is an oxymoron.
If I was a current owner of a fairly new TL, this Type-S would not make me run out and trade in for the new one, but I'm a guy who just happens to be in the market for a new car. I'm very much leaning toward the IS350 but I love the price of the TL for what you get.
If the TL was offering SH-AWD today, it would be a no brainer, but it doesn't.
When I looked at the TL, I decided on the ASPEC package. The Type-S package is not much more $ and offers more power than the base TL. This new price also brings it very close to the price of a fully loaded IS350. The RWD on the IS will be more fun than the FWD on the TL, and I don't plan on either of them being great in the snow.
This car with AWD is gonna be a car to beat. The only other car I can think of today with similar levels of luxury, gadgets, power and price would be the G35x, but I'm afraid of the Infinti's dependability.
Did you try to turn the VDIM off? If you didn't you should go try the 07 IS which comes with the convenient VDIM switch-off button. No more tap dancing...YeeHah.
"Don't think we'll see a RWD TL anytime soon. Looks to me that Acura is intented to make its whole lineup with SH-AWD...like a Japanese Audi."
You may be right, but I question the wisdom a bit. Here's my take on SH-AWD from having an RL for a loaner for several days last year: It's not really that "super handling". It seemed heavy and ponderous, with still a noticable FWD bias. The added weight also detracts from fuel economy and acceleration (the RL is downright pokey compared to my TL 6-speed). It's potentially expensive to maintain and repair over the course of 7-10 years and 120,000+ miles (my former Maxima is 11 years and 155k miles with no major repairs).
I can see, perhaps, the appeal of SH-AWD in an RL bought by someone who might also be considering a Mercedes E-class or Audi A-6. Both of which are luxury cars and come with an AWD option that makes them better all-weather cars.
But if the TL-S is going after a lower price, higher performnace oriented sport sedan market, I think RWD would be a better alternative. In that segment, I'd never take the Audi A4 quatro over a 330i or a S4 over an M3. Any more than I'd want to carry 5 40-lb sacks of potatoes in my trunk all the time, hoping I see a snowy road to show off on. And with the tires they put on the TL 6-speed, you don't exactly have a car capable of snow country winters, AWD notwithstanding.
Acura may have conceded the "BMW fighter" role to Infiniti. Too bad. I think Honda/Acura engineers have what it would take. The engineering behind the S2000 is so superior to the 350Z - and even the Z4 - as to not even be in the same league.
"We don't have a definite price on the TL Type-S yet, but the fully Loaded '07 IS350 is 43,800.
I personally suspect that to be no more than $3,000 more than the TL w/Nav."
Not sure if this was a typo or what but you can buy an 06 w/ Navi in most markets for invoice. Some can even get into the holdback. Assuming people buy at invoice for an 06 TL, that is almost a 10k difference- not 3k.
The 07 base TL will obviously be slightly higher but still- savings will be way more than 3k for a base TL.
TL-S pricing remains yet to be seen.
On a side note, the base TL when compared to its AWD/RWD counterparts did not fair as bad as everyone is making it seem. The TL-S IMHO with its projected performance upgrades will bridge the gap even with its dreaded FWD platform.
"Not sure if this was a typo or what but you can buy an 06 w/ Navi in most markets for invoice. Some can even get into the holdback. Assuming people buy at invoice for an 06 TL, that is almost a 10k difference- not 3k."
We're not talking about a TL Nav.... see the title of this post and the forum it's in. We're talking about the TL-S and it's suspected MSRP.
Sorry I didn't keep the -S in my post to make that a clearer.
This is definitely not the right place to discuss about Infiniti but if you think it is closer to Dodge than BMW then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Dodge = crappy domestic large volume car manufacture. (Same goes for Chevy, Ford, Pontiac...) Infinite = Nissan's luxury division to go head to head with the Germans. (Same goes for Lexus and Acura) BMW = German luxury car manufacture (as MB and Audi)
Nevetheless the Infiniti, even the Nissan is light years ahead of Dodge.
You're right -- everyone has his opinion. We can agree to disagree. But for the record, I've always maintained that Lexus is the only Japanese brand that can go head to head with the German heavyweights. Not Acura, not Infiniti.
"You may be right -- Nissan is more Dodge. Infiniti is probably more Chrysler."
Boy, I sure hope not.
I've been the unhappy owner of a Jeep Grand Cherokee and swear to never own another. I loved the 300C when it came out but everyone who bought one is sorry they did.
I know that Infiniti has some issues, but I was really looking forward to seeing the new 07 G35x
If it's a dependable as a Chrysler, they can keep it.
But there are marked similarities though. Both manufacturers seem to live and die on big power, bold and brash (almost in-your-face) styling, and both seem to be inclined to cut corners on quality and interior styling.
"On a side note, the base TL when compared to its AWD/RWD counterparts did not fair as bad as everyone is making it seem. The TL-S IMHO with its projected performance upgrades will bridge the gap even with its dreaded FWD platform."
True enough. If I recall correctly, the TL has been one of the faster vehicles in the comparos when it comes to the slalom courses. While it isn't the sportiest vehicle overall, there are things it does very well.
Frankly, I think a most of this conversation about which vehicle is sportier is well off the mark (or market). There are plenty of buyers who are interested in the TL - about 70K per year. When Acura releases the Type S, there will be a newer and 'better' TL for these people. They aren't going to care whether another vehicle can beat it in a track, they only know they want the 'better' version, not the cheap one.
Acura fans' comparison of Infiniti to Chrysler is just so plain ludicrous. Look at the comparable Infiniti and Acura cars.
In its class, M is 2nd only to 5 as a performance leader, far outdistancing the sorry RL. Who cut the corners in designing its flagship, Infiniti or Acura? M is also outsaling RL by several times.
Early reviews (edmunds, for ex) say new G is the closest thing to BMW 3. Again, who cut corners by trying to make a performance car off an Accord platform?
Infiniti is the Japanese BMW, Acura is only the Japanese Audi.
On a side note, the base TL when compared to its AWD/RWD counterparts did not fair as bad as everyone is making it seem. The TL-S IMHO with its projected performance upgrades will bridge the gap even with its dreaded FWD platform.
Let’s see what the facts are in terms of measured performance when 07 TLs tested by Edmunds and R & T. How will the numbers match up to icon 3 series? Preliminary review by Edmunds have positive words on suspension and steering of 07’s.
Of course everyone knows that fwd cars feel different from rwds. If one lives in FL, Vegas, LA, etc., can have rwd and not worry about snow or ice. But, if you live in snow belt and have snow/ice for 3-4 months of year, then fwd is a desirable and not a dreaded platform. RWD is dreaded in snowbelt areas unless you have luxury to leave BMW in garage on snow days and use a fwd car instead.
Traction control has come leaps and bounds since the FWD platform came out.
With 300HP, even a FWD is gonna have it's issues in snow and ice.
Although I'm from NE, have a steep driveway, drive 50 miles to work, and have to be there no matter the weather... the FWD vs RWD is not the first thing on my mind.
I've driven trucks and SUVs for so long, I'm dying to get back into a performance sedan.
I want something that'll get me to work in any condition, sure.... but I doubt the FWD 300hp TL will be much better than any of the RWD sedans out there today.
Snow tires and the 20 yr experience of driving in snow will do, no matter the drive platform. I just want a car hat's a blast to drive the other 8.5 months of the year. :shades:
Perhaps -- but only in terms of performance. The RL was never aiming at the performance crown. BTW, try comparing the RL with the M35x, and see how they fare.
The latest and newest G is still second bananas to the BMW 3. C & D mentioned that there is still evidence of inferior quality. So, who cut corners (again)? The rallying cry of G fans, in appears, is limited again to only its RWD platform, which the majority of the buying public don't give a hoot about.
Traction control has come leaps and bounds since the FWD platform came out.
With 300HP, even a FWD is gonna have it's issues in snow and ice.
Not necessarily with judicious use of right foot. FWD of Acura TL or any brand for that matter is almost totally forgiving on ice or snow if too much power. Not so with RWD where you will go sideways with even the slightest amount of too much extra gas pedal. Have owned both FWD and RWD vehicles. Current 04 TL has 4 Dunlop 50 series winter snows for snow season.
RWD BMW or any RWD car will never outperform TL or any front driver in snow/ice. With equal tires on both types (snows or good all-season), FWD TL has the edge in performance. With RWD, the front tires will tend to ride up on layer of snow or slush. In contrast, in FWD the tread of the tires will bite down and grab. It is better to pull in ice/snow than to push.
"Not necessarily with judicious use of right foot. FWD of Acura TL or any brand for that matter is almost totally forgiving on ice or snow if too much power. Not so with RWD where you will go sideways with even the slightest amount of too much extra gas pedal."
I agree, somewhat. In a RWD car, if too much power is given, the rear will slide out... but with the control of the front wheels still in the driver's hands, this is only an issue when coming from a complete stop. Anyone with experience driving in New England winters can handle this, and the addition of traction control helps to curb the over-powering issue. In a FWD vehicle, when the front tires start to spin, the whole front end slides to one side, and if the driver is completed retarded, eventually off the side of the road.
"RWD BMW or any RWD car will never outperform TL or any front driver in snow/ice. With equal tires on both types (snows or good all-season), FWD TL has the edge in performance. With RWD, the front tires will tend to ride up on layer of snow or slush. In contrast, in FWD the tread of the tires will bite down and grab. It is better to pull in ice/snow than to push."
I agree completely, but as I said... as long as I can get from point A to B, I'm happy. I've always insisted on FWD, AWD, or 4WD due to the fact that I live in NE and actually go to work when it snows. I want a "Sports Sedan" that can get me to work in the winter, but is the most enjoyable of sports oriented rides for the other 8.5 months of the year.
I live in New England, not Antarctica!
All I'm saying is that FWD vs RWD is not my first concern.
As someone who grew up in the snow belt and still has a second home that sees 120 inches of snow a year, it's hard to argue with the logic of your statements.
But, as with Billyperks, in the real world, my TL 6-speed SUCKS in snow/ice. Granted, it didn't help that I ordered the HPT tire package. But even after replacing those at 19,000 miles, my first snow experience was less than satisfactory compared to my old Nissan Maxima. And not as good as a friends 530i with all season tires.
So if anyone is leaning towards a TL-S on the basis that it would be a better all season sport sedan, I suggest you rethink that position. Adding more horsepower to a FWD platform is, IMO, not the direction Acura should have gone. Summer, winter spring or fall.
But, as with Billyperks, in the real world, my TL 6-speed SUCKS in snow/ice. Granted, it didn't help that I ordered the HPT tire package.
Are HPT summer type tires? Got caught one year with an early 1-2 inch snowfall with Pirelli summer performance tires on a 98 Accord V6 and had great difficulty in moving or steering the car on a flat part of our driveway by the garage. Got the car back into the garage and then quickly mounted 2 snows in front and then drove to office.
The all-season Michelin tires that were on 01 TL and the Bridgestone EL42's on the 04 are terrible in snow. Have been caught at times with early snowfall with these tires on car and had not yet mounted the snow tires.
When studded snows were still legal in my state, had each of our RWD cars equipped with 4 studded tires. The grip in snow and ice was outstanding. But, had to really watch driving style in the dry with studded snows. Of course, the studded snows tore up the roads and thus were banned.
Wife and I have used 4 snows in winter months on most every vehicle we have owned for many years. Never a problem with any FWD vehicle. Had Pirellis on 01 TL and Dunlops for 04 TL. Have a long uphill driveway and get up in TLs or other front drivers with snows mounted. Exception is when getting home on our plowed or semi-plowed road but snow on driveway is deep enough to hang car up. Then, have to park car on road and clear driveway first.
Will probably buy a new 07 TL later this fall, but not the Type S. Agree that there is no need for 300 HP. 07 Type S is overpriced. I would not choose Type S over standard TL "even" if they were priced the same. Don't like the Type S gimmick styling, wheels and of course the HP excess.
"Adding more horsepower to a FWD platform is, IMO, not the direction Acura should have gone. Summer, winter spring or fall."
What did you expect for a MMC? I think Acura opened their ears a little bit and listened to what the consumers wanted i.e. Mirror Blinkers Foglights Quad exhaust New Taillights Carbon Shift Knob Race Pedals Pattle Shifters for AT Better Front Seats 3 way steering wheel More HP Upgraded suspension
I am sure there is more but the point is it is just a MMC!
Yes you were right, this is merely a MMC. IMO the regular TL will continue to do well because even with the slight price bump it is still the best bang for the buck in this segment. Most non-enthusiast whom don't care if it's FWD (and trust me there are a lot of them out there) won't be able to resist the complete package offered by the TL.
HOWEVER, I personally doubt that the TL-S will repeat its success from the last generation. To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?). With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo), a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft) and a G35 navi (with change!!). All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust :surprise: ) than TL-S and most important of all, THEY ARE ALL RWD with AWD as an option (except the IS350). I am not saying that the TL-S is going to be a sales flop because I have learned not to doubt Honda/Acura. I guessed time will tell...
Don't get me wrong, I loved the RL and Acura. However I think it's pitiful that Acura's flagship RL was outsold by the none-flagship Infiniti M and Lexus GS.
"HOWEVER, I personally doubt that the TL-S will repeat its success from the last generation."
That remains to be seen.
"To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?)." Your opinion and your entitled to it.
"With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo)," Key word is "based." Personally, I don't have the time to be taking a 3er to the shop for issues.
"a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft)" Nice car- quality product, luxury refinements and power are admirable- but way too small for me.
"a G35 navi (with change!!)." 07 G35 looks great! Definately alot of bang for the buck much like the base TL. However, I don't dig the interior/exterior styling.
"All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust) So? Styling is purely subjective.
MMC or not, I see little real value in adding more horsepower to a FWD platform. It's 90% marketing, 5% performance and 5% stupid is as stupid does.
I have to be careful "launching" my TL 6-speed with 258 hp. The wheel hop and torque steer under hard acceleration is significant and almost dangerous. Adding 30 +/- horsepower to a RWD vehicle (like my 911S, sorry louiswei) makes for a noticable improvement in performance. In the TL-S, I seriously doubt it will be much quicker than my 2004 TL, but it will exacerbate the wheel hop and torque steer.
Now if they wanted to do it for free, fine. But trying to disguise the TL-S as a serious sports sedan and charging a $5k+ premium for it? I wish the Honda S2000 engineers would take the TL-S marketing folks out behind the offices and kick their butts.
YOU might not see value in it. Others may. What did you think Acura was going to do? Implement AWD or heck RWD for a MMC? In the past the Type-S models have a proven track record for success. Maybe Acura was trying to take a second bite at the apple? Who knows. Until this car is actually fully tested and compared to the cars in this class, everyone's opinion about how this FWD will handle with 30+ hp is conjecture and at best- an educated assumption. I can't speak for your driving habits but surely you tested that puppy out before buying it. If Acura did it for free- what would it change? According to your conclusion this car has no value because it has added hp to FWD and would undoubtedly be dangerous. Acura should incorporate some of the engineering of the S2000 into the TL. But then again, folks will just think up another reason to dog the car.
In addition to what ggesq said, don't forget that it is the norm for a non-flagship model to outsell a flagship. The lower-echelon (lower-priced) models always sell in higher volumes.
Nah, no biggie, if I have a 911S I wouldn't be able to stop talking about it as well. It's all good as long as you are not trying to compare the 911S to 4 door sedans like 3er, IS and G.
Comments
I don't think it is worth the 7K more in price. I doubt dealers will deal off MSRP for them either.
Agreed, but better yet, make the TL-S (and TL) RWD. Lighter weight, less expensive and more performance oriented than the luxo-RL.
At $32k, my 2004 TL 6-speed gave me enough performance, value and utility compared to the 330i and G35 to accept the compromises of FWD. But at $40k, with a performance oriented packaging and a more powerful engine, FWD is just STUPID. With all of the ground up engineering that went into the hand built, limited production $32k S2000, you would think someone at Acura would figure out that a $40k FWD "sport sedan" is an oxymoron.
Have you driven a 350??? :surprise:
There is nothing numb about it.
Don't think we'll see a RWD TL anytime soon. Looks to me that Acura is intented to make its whole lineup with SH-AWD...like a Japanese Audi.
Infiniti: Japanese BMW?
Lexus: Japanese MB?
:P
I'm very much leaning toward the IS350 but I love the price of the TL for what you get.
If the TL was offering SH-AWD today, it would be a no brainer, but it doesn't.
When I looked at the TL, I decided on the ASPEC package.
The Type-S package is not much more $ and offers more power than the base TL.
This new price also brings it very close to the price of a fully loaded IS350.
The RWD on the IS will be more fun than the FWD on the TL, and I don't plan on either of them being great in the snow.
This car with AWD is gonna be a car to beat.
The only other car I can think of today with similar levels of luxury, gadgets, power and price would be the G35x, but I'm afraid of the Infinti's dependability.
That is where the SH-AWD TL will take the lead.
If your driving in a straight line- maybe.
Other than that- yes it is numb! No feedback from the vehicle and I felt disconnected when trying to make some aggressive manuvuering.
Did you try to turn the VDIM off? If you didn't you should go try the 07 IS which comes with the convenient VDIM switch-off button. No more tap dancing...YeeHah.
and yes, it is a TL board. Your suggestion might be better served with a more captive audience
You may be right, but I question the wisdom a bit. Here's my take on SH-AWD from having an RL for a loaner for several days last year: It's not really that "super handling". It seemed heavy and ponderous, with still a noticable FWD bias. The added weight also detracts from fuel economy and acceleration (the RL is downright pokey compared to my TL 6-speed). It's potentially expensive to maintain and repair over the course of 7-10 years and 120,000+ miles (my former Maxima is 11 years and 155k miles with no major repairs).
I can see, perhaps, the appeal of SH-AWD in an RL bought by someone who might also be considering a Mercedes E-class or Audi A-6. Both of which are luxury cars and come with an AWD option that makes them better all-weather cars.
But if the TL-S is going after a lower price, higher performnace oriented sport sedan market, I think RWD would be a better alternative. In that segment, I'd never take the Audi A4 quatro over a 330i or a S4 over an M3. Any more than I'd want to carry 5 40-lb sacks of potatoes in my trunk all the time, hoping I see a snowy road to show off on. And with the tires they put on the TL 6-speed, you don't exactly have a car capable of snow country winters, AWD notwithstanding.
Acura may have conceded the "BMW fighter" role to Infiniti. Too bad. I think Honda/Acura engineers have what it would take. The engineering behind the S2000 is so superior to the 350Z - and even the Z4 - as to not even be in the same league.
According to Edmunds TMV pricing for a similarly equipped IS 350 vs a TL-S, in my zip code the cost would be 45k.
If the TL-S sells for an MSRP of 39k, there is still a significant savings IMHO.
To me, Infiniti is more Japanese Dodge or Pontiac. (Big power, look-at-me styling, cheapish interiors.)
If the TL-S sells for an MSRP of 39k, there is still a significant savings IMHO."
The issue here is "If"
We don't have a definite price on the TL Type-S yet, but the fully Loaded '07 IS350 is 43,800.
I personally suspect that to be no more than $3,000 more than the TL w/Nav.
I guess we'll know more on the TL's price soon.
I think the $3,000 is a small, fair price to pay to jump from the TL to the IS, having driven both.
I however, have not yet driven the TL-S and can't wait to.
I will make no decision until I do.
I am speechless...
Yes, Infiniti has the cheapest interior AMONG THE IMPORT LUXURY BRANDS but is still light years ahead of those domestic craps.
I personally suspect that to be no more than $3,000 more than the TL w/Nav."
Not sure if this was a typo or what but you can buy an 06 w/ Navi in most markets for invoice. Some can even get into the holdback. Assuming people buy at invoice for an 06 TL, that is almost a 10k difference- not 3k.
The 07 base TL will obviously be slightly higher but still- savings will be way more than 3k for a base TL.
TL-S pricing remains yet to be seen.
On a side note, the base TL when compared to its AWD/RWD counterparts did not fair as bad as everyone is making it seem. The TL-S IMHO with its projected performance upgrades will bridge the gap even with its dreaded FWD platform.
We're not talking about a TL Nav.... see the title of this post and the forum it's in.
We're talking about the TL-S and it's suspected MSRP.
Sorry I didn't keep the -S in my post to make that a clearer.
Dodge = crappy domestic large volume car manufacture. (Same goes for Chevy, Ford, Pontiac...)
Infinite = Nissan's luxury division to go head to head with the Germans. (Same goes for Lexus and Acura)
BMW = German luxury car manufacture (as MB and Audi)
Nevetheless the Infiniti, even the Nissan is light years ahead of Dodge.
Boy, I sure hope not.
I've been the unhappy owner of a Jeep Grand Cherokee and swear to never own another.
I loved the 300C when it came out but everyone who bought one is sorry they did.
I know that Infiniti has some issues, but I was really looking forward to seeing the new 07 G35x
If it's a dependable as a Chrysler, they can keep it.
True enough. If I recall correctly, the TL has been one of the faster vehicles in the comparos when it comes to the slalom courses. While it isn't the sportiest vehicle overall, there are things it does very well.
Frankly, I think a most of this conversation about which vehicle is sportier is well off the mark (or market). There are plenty of buyers who are interested in the TL - about 70K per year. When Acura releases the Type S, there will be a newer and 'better' TL for these people. They aren't going to care whether another vehicle can beat it in a track, they only know they want the 'better' version, not the cheap one.
In its class, M is 2nd only to 5 as a performance leader, far outdistancing the sorry RL. Who cut the corners in designing its flagship, Infiniti or Acura? M is also outsaling RL by several times.
Early reviews (edmunds, for ex) say new G is the closest thing to BMW 3. Again, who cut corners by trying to make a performance car off an Accord platform?
Infiniti is the Japanese BMW, Acura is only the Japanese Audi.
Let’s see what the facts are in terms of measured performance when 07 TLs tested by Edmunds and R & T. How will the numbers match up to icon 3 series?
Preliminary review by Edmunds have positive words on suspension and steering of 07’s.
Of course everyone knows that fwd cars feel different from rwds. If one lives in FL, Vegas, LA, etc., can have rwd and not worry about snow or ice. But, if you live in snow belt and have snow/ice for 3-4 months of year, then fwd is a desirable and not a dreaded platform. RWD is dreaded in snowbelt areas unless you have luxury to leave BMW in garage on snow days and use a fwd car instead.
With 300HP, even a FWD is gonna have it's issues in snow and ice.
Although I'm from NE, have a steep driveway, drive 50 miles to work, and have to be there no matter the weather... the FWD vs RWD is not the first thing on my mind.
I've driven trucks and SUVs for so long, I'm dying to get back into a performance sedan.
I want something that'll get me to work in any condition, sure.... but I doubt the FWD 300hp TL will be much better than any of the RWD sedans out there today.
Snow tires and the 20 yr experience of driving in snow will do, no matter the drive platform.
I just want a car hat's a blast to drive the other 8.5 months of the year. :shades:
Perhaps -- but only in terms of performance. The RL was never aiming at the performance crown. BTW, try comparing the RL with the M35x, and see how they fare.
The latest and newest G is still second bananas to the BMW 3. C & D mentioned that there is still evidence of inferior quality. So, who cut corners (again)? The rallying cry of G fans, in appears, is limited again to only its RWD platform, which the majority of the buying public don't give a hoot about.
With 300HP, even a FWD is gonna have it's issues in snow and ice.
Not necessarily with judicious use of right foot. FWD of Acura TL or any brand for that matter is almost totally forgiving on ice or snow if too much power. Not so with RWD where you will go sideways with even the slightest amount of too much extra gas pedal. Have owned both FWD and RWD vehicles. Current 04 TL has 4 Dunlop 50 series winter snows for snow season.
RWD BMW or any RWD car will never outperform TL or any front driver in snow/ice. With equal tires on both types (snows or good all-season), FWD TL has the edge in performance. With RWD, the front tires will tend to ride up on layer of snow or slush. In contrast, in FWD the tread of the tires will bite down and grab. It is better to pull in ice/snow than to push.
I have to revert back to my 1994 Camry to get me through the snow.
I agree, somewhat.
In a RWD car, if too much power is given, the rear will slide out... but with the control of the front wheels still in the driver's hands, this is only an issue when coming from a complete stop.
Anyone with experience driving in New England winters can handle this, and the addition of traction control helps to curb the over-powering issue.
In a FWD vehicle, when the front tires start to spin, the whole front end slides to one side, and if the driver is completed retarded, eventually off the side of the road.
"RWD BMW or any RWD car will never outperform TL or any front driver in snow/ice. With equal tires on both types (snows or good all-season), FWD TL has the edge in performance. With RWD, the front tires will tend to ride up on layer of snow or slush. In contrast, in FWD the tread of the tires will bite down and grab. It is better to pull in ice/snow than to push."
I agree completely, but as I said... as long as I can get from point A to B, I'm happy.
I've always insisted on FWD, AWD, or 4WD due to the fact that I live in NE and actually go to work when it snows.
I want a "Sports Sedan" that can get me to work in the winter, but is the most enjoyable of sports oriented rides for the other 8.5 months of the year.
I live in New England, not Antarctica!
All I'm saying is that FWD vs RWD is not my first concern.
But, as with Billyperks, in the real world, my TL 6-speed SUCKS in snow/ice. Granted, it didn't help that I ordered the HPT tire package. But even after replacing those at 19,000 miles, my first snow experience was less than satisfactory compared to my old Nissan Maxima. And not as good as a friends 530i with all season tires.
So if anyone is leaning towards a TL-S on the basis that it would be a better all season sport sedan, I suggest you rethink that position. Adding more horsepower to a FWD platform is, IMO, not the direction Acura should have gone. Summer, winter spring or fall.
Are HPT summer type tires? Got caught one year with an early 1-2 inch snowfall with Pirelli summer performance tires on a 98 Accord V6 and had great difficulty in moving or steering the car on a flat part of our driveway by the garage. Got the car back into the garage and then quickly mounted 2 snows in front and then drove to office.
The all-season Michelin tires that were on 01 TL and the Bridgestone EL42's on the 04 are terrible in snow. Have been caught at times with early snowfall with these tires on car and had not yet mounted the snow tires.
When studded snows were still legal in my state, had each of our RWD cars equipped with 4 studded tires. The grip in snow and ice was outstanding. But, had to really watch driving style in the dry with studded snows. Of course, the studded snows tore up the roads and thus were banned.
Wife and I have used 4 snows in winter months on most every vehicle we have owned for many years. Never a problem with any FWD vehicle. Had Pirellis on 01 TL and Dunlops for 04 TL. Have a long uphill driveway and get up in TLs or other front drivers with snows mounted. Exception is when getting home on our plowed or semi-plowed road but snow on driveway is deep enough to hang car up. Then, have to park car on road and clear driveway first.
Will probably buy a new 07 TL later this fall, but not the Type S. Agree that there is no need for 300 HP. 07 Type S is overpriced. I would not choose Type S over standard TL "even" if they were priced the same. Don't like the Type S gimmick styling, wheels and of course the HP excess.
What did you expect for a MMC? I think Acura opened their ears a little bit and listened to what the consumers wanted i.e.
Mirror Blinkers
Foglights
Quad exhaust
New Taillights
Carbon Shift Knob
Race Pedals
Pattle Shifters for AT
Better Front Seats
3 way steering wheel
More HP
Upgraded suspension
I am sure there is more but the point is it is just a MMC!
HOWEVER, I personally doubt that the TL-S will repeat its success from the last generation. To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?). With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo), a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft) and a G35 navi (with change!!). All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust :surprise: ) than TL-S and most important of all, THEY ARE ALL RWD with AWD as an option (except the IS350). I am not saying that the TL-S is going to be a sales flop because I have learned not to doubt Honda/Acura. I guessed time will tell...
Infiniti's flagship- the Q sold a pitiful 342 units YTD in 06.
M is definately selling more units than the RL but then again the M is not the flagship for Infiniti.
Don't get me wrong, I loved the RL and Acura. However I think it's pitiful that Acura's flagship RL was outsold by the none-flagship Infiniti M and Lexus GS.
That remains to be seen.
"To me, $39,000 is just way too much for a FWD even with that stupid quad exhaust (what does it think it is? the M3?)."
Your opinion and your entitled to it.
"With that price one can get a based 335i sedan (300 hp, 300 lb-ft and twin turbo),"
Key word is "based." Personally, I don't have the time to be taking a 3er to the shop for issues.
"a IS350 with navi (306 hp and 277 lb-ft)"
Nice car- quality product, luxury refinements and power are admirable- but way too small for me.
"a G35 navi (with change!!)."
07 G35 looks great! Definately alot of bang for the buck much like the base TL. However, I don't dig the interior/exterior styling.
"All 3 cars above have higher HP output (and no quad exhaust)
So? Styling is purely subjective.
However, I was replying to someone ELSE'S post talking about flagships.
M & GS have different models i.e. M35 & M45 and GS350 & GS450. More to choose from- MIGHT account for more sales.
Will admit the RL is in some serious trouble for its own market class.
Cheers.
I have to be careful "launching" my TL 6-speed with 258 hp. The wheel hop and torque steer under hard acceleration is significant and almost dangerous. Adding 30 +/- horsepower to a RWD vehicle (like my 911S, sorry louiswei) makes for a noticable improvement in performance. In the TL-S, I seriously doubt it will be much quicker than my 2004 TL, but it will exacerbate the wheel hop and torque steer.
Now if they wanted to do it for free, fine. But trying to disguise the TL-S as a serious sports sedan and charging a $5k+ premium for it? I wish the Honda S2000 engineers would take the TL-S marketing folks out behind the offices and kick their butts.
In the past the Type-S models have a proven track record for success. Maybe Acura was trying to take a second bite at the apple? Who knows.
Until this car is actually fully tested and compared to the cars in this class, everyone's opinion about how this FWD will handle with 30+ hp is conjecture and at best- an educated assumption.
I can't speak for your driving habits but surely you tested that puppy out before buying it.
If Acura did it for free- what would it change? According to your conclusion this car has no value because it has added hp to FWD and would undoubtedly be dangerous.
Acura should incorporate some of the engineering of the S2000 into the TL. But then again, folks will just think up another reason to dog the car.
Nah, no biggie, if I have a 911S I wouldn't be able to stop talking about it as well. It's all good as long as you are not trying to compare the 911S to 4 door sedans like 3er, IS and G.