Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

PF_Flyer

A show out of Canada called How It's Made had a segment lithium batteries today. Interesting stuff

apeweek

...One, they have a very short shelf life. Two they get very hot when charged too fast.

Not all lithium batteries are the same. The state-of-the-art does not stand still. There are several different formulations out there, based on different chemistries. The short shelf-life problem has been licked with newer battery designs. AltairNano, for example is claiming lifetimes of 12 to 20 years for theirs.

Ditto thermal runaway. LiFePO4 batteries, for example, can be punctured or shorted without igniting. There's a picture of one being drilled while still functioning on the bottom of this page:
http://www.iloveebikes.com/batteries.html

...they are very expensive...more expensive today than they were 10 years ago.

This is not true. All technology items get cheaper over time. I have even seen lithium traction batteries from China priced competitively with lead-acid batteries. Here's a page - some EV experimenters are using these batteries, and imported Chinese EVs will use them:
http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm

gagrice

You are better informed than I on all aspects of EVs. I have heard their are advancements in Li-Ion to overcome the life and heat problems.

As far as price and Chinese batteries. I avoid them like the plague. My experience with off brand batteries from China has been horrible. I will stick with name brands only. And those prices have not come down. They have continued to rise. A Dell replacement battery for a 5 year old laptop is a lot more than it was when new. How do you account for the huge rise in cost to convert a Prius to PHEV? 3 years ago they were talking $5k to convert with NiMH and $12k for Li-Ion. Today a conversion is $24k to $32K. That is not going down. Only going up as I see it.

Last and most important to me. If you buy those Chinese Traction batteries, how long are they guaranteed? Who pays to ship them back when they are defective? I want to see a practical EV as much as anyone. I would even be an early adopter. I would have to be able to justify it on some level. So far none can be justified. I am not into messing with a vehicle anymore. I did my time rebuilding engines and transmissions. I will leave the mechanic work to the young generation. I did test drive the Xebra sedan. It was interesting. It would not be usable for me except as another toy.

larsb

Maybe something like this is the key:

Cool It, Baby

GM's Secret for Safe Lithium-ion Batteries: Cool It!

General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz raised eyebrows in battery development circles when he said recently that GM was “100 percent confident” that it has whipped the overheating problem that is hampering development of lithium-ion battery packs for electric and hybrid cars.

Now the General’s secret can be told.

Tony Posawatz, vehicle line director for GM's E-Flex electric vehicle platform, told Green Car Advisor during an interview in Detroit that instead of mounting a frontal attack on battery design for the Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car that is under development, engineers circled around and attacked from the flank.

“We’re going to use liquid cooling,” he whispered.

Running coolant lines through the big array of lithium-ion battery cells that will store energy to propel the Volt and other models built on the E-Flex platform adds cost and isn’t as elegant as developing a battery that won’t overheat, Posawatz admitted. But it is enabling the automaker to keep on its self-appointed schedule: Volts in the market by 2010.

It's creative thinking like this that got the Prius on the road in the first place. Toyota had all kinds of problems with the original Prius battery system and finally figured it all out.

Here is a REALLY GOOD PAGE which details a lot of what GM is doing with hybrids and battery technology. Impressive.

GM focuses on catching Toyota

apeweek

...A Dell replacement battery for a 5 year old laptop is a lot more than it was when new.

You get charged a lot for replacement parts like this because you are a captive audience. However, every battery product like this contains standard battery cells. You can often save lots of money on your laptop battery by going to a rebuilder, who will simply replace the cells in your existing battery pack. I do this every three years or so with my rechargeable lawnmower. The manufacturer wants $300 for a battery pack. I replace the cells myself for about $50. Laptop battery makers are smart enough to make the battery casing almost impossible to open, so most people won't try to do this.

Unfortunately, the cells in your laptop battery pack probably come from China or Korea. There are no li-ion manufacturers in the United States. In fact, here's a government report on this very topic:

http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/contents.htm

gagrice

I think the issue is "All Cells are not Equal". I remember racing radio control cars. We would go through stacks of Nicad cells to pick out the very best ones. Some brands were just better than others. Invariably the no name cells were inferior. That will be a real contributing factor to these vehicles with literally hundreds of cells to go bad or deteriorate. Most batteries have a very short warranty. 90 days to 6 months with the major Laptop vendors. You do have the advantage of being able to test and get rid of a cell that is weak, shorts or goes open. The average car owner will not be so equipped.

apeweek

...Invariably the no name cells were inferior.

OK, I think the issue here is that you think the Thunder-Sky batteries I pointed you to are an 'off-brand.'

In reality, Thunder Sky is right up there with A123 as a major player in the EV battery world. Unlike A123, they have made their batteries readily available to EV hobbyists for several years now.

Here's a page with just a few of the many hobbyist EV projects powered by (relatively) inexpensive Thunder Sky lithium batteries:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/battb/THUN

These batteries are real, and they already work! China is a major player in EV batteries (since almost all our Li-Ion batteries come from there already.) Personally, I believe the first mass-market pure EV will come from China, at a price nobody else can match.

gagrice

You have me at a disadvantage. I have not played with Lithium batteries other than laptops, cameras and phones. I know nothing of the brand Thunder sky. I do know I bought a non OEM battery for my Canon digital camera. It would not hold a charge near as long as the original that came with the camera.

I am sure you are correct about China building the EVs we get in the USA. The Xebra is one of the first to be sold here. It is from China. I would say India will follow close behind.

PS
I like IVO cool van.

tpe

There's a Chinese battery manufacturer called Advanced Battery Technologies. Not much information is available on them. I understand that they have a Li-ion technology that is very similar to Altairnano's. They are traded on the NASDAQ, stock symbol ABAT, and their share price has gone from 60 cents to $4.30 in the last 10 months so something must be going on.

apeweek

...I understand that they have a Li-ion technology that is very similar to Altairnano's.

Advanced Battery Technologies has their own unique technology, an improved polymer-lithium-ion battery. What they have done, however, is to partner with Altair, and borrow their nanomaterial electrodes.

Their product looks promising, as it promises greater energy density than the other 'safe' li-ion battery chemistries under discussion.

Every time I read about them, testing is still going on. If the stock price is jumping, maybe something is going on, but I don't know what.

larsb

Tesla shatters EV range record

Tesla Tops 250
A new mileage mark for an electric production car
By MARK VAUGHN

Blowing away all previous mileage marks by production electric vehicles, the Tesla announced that its upcoming roadster recorded 255 miles on a single charge in a recent EPA City test cycle. It hit 235 on the Highway portion of the test. That gives it an EPA combined rating of 245 miles.

All that and Tesla still claims 0-60 in under four seconds. We have yet to drive one.

The Tesla two-seater is powered by 6800 tiny lithium-ion batteries. While the first lead-acid GM EV1s generally got 40 to 60 miles on a charge, subsequent nickel-metal hydride (NiMH)-powered units could usually go over 100 miles between plug-ins. The NiMH-powered EV1 went 140 miles in its EPA certification run in 1999.

The first 50 Tesla Roadsters will be produced in the first quarter of 2008, with another 600 planned by the end of that year. The roadster was originally planned for a summer ’07 debut, then fall of ’07.

Next up from Tesla is an electric-powered sedan called the WhiteStar, which was expected in 2009 though no update on its arrival date was given.

The roadster is to be built by Lotus in England, while the WhiteStar will come out of a new plant in New Mexico. A smaller sedan is next on the plate, with the goal being a full line of electric vehicles at some point in the future.

Now we just need a $100,000 tax credit from the guvmint like they gave the big SUVs a few years ago and we can ALL own a Tesla !!!

apeweek

...The Tesla two-seater is powered by 6800 tiny lithium-ion batteries.

Good article. Minor quibble about terminology.

Those are called cells, not batteries. Batteries are made up of two or more cells. A laptop battery might contain 4 - 12 cells, for instance. In this case the Tesla battery has 6800 cells.

tpe

Tesla's been driving some of its prototypes around for over a year now. It would be interesting to find out what kind of battery degradation, if any, they've seen so far. I'm sure they are monitoring this very closely yet they might not be forthcoming with this information.

tpe

If the stock price is jumping, maybe something is going on,

Advanced Battery's stock price continues to go up. ABAT closed today at $5.37 on high volume. There is definitely something going on. I bought shares of this company 18 months ago at 60 cents. I sold them about 6 months ago at $1.80. At the time I thought I was a genius. I've since re-evaluated that assessment of my investment savvy.

gagrice

Any time you triple your money it is a good thing. It could have gone back down to 50 cents just as easy. I have invested in companies producing biodiesel. So far I have not reached genius status.

apeweek

Take a look at this page: http://fevehicle.com/services.html

These are Chinese electric and serial hybrid cars. These do freeway speeds, but if you look at the FAQ page, you'll see that the cars they have been shipping to the US are speed-limited to qualify as NEVs (so they don't have to undergo expensive certification for US roads.)

It seems to me that whatever has been done do speed-limit them could probably be undone.

The most interesting thing are the prices. Several models are pictured, starting from just $4500. A little pickup truck is just $6500.

What do people think? What would I get fined if I got pulled over driving one of these on the freeway?

tpe

I've got to believe that this vehicle is at least as safe as a motorcycle. So if you're not fined for riding a motorcycle on the freeway you shouldn't be fined for driving one of these vehicles.

gagrice

The little PU is about half the price of the Xebra I test drove. Both have lead acid batteries. I suppose you could convert if the price comes down on Lithium batteries. I did not see a dealer locater for the USA.

apeweek

No, there are no dealerships at the moment. The FAQ page says that they will ship you a vehicle if you want one. Despite the questionable appearance of this website (clearly they need a better translator), it has been up and running for over two years now.

Besides the two vehicles on the top of the page with prices, the two vehicles in the middle of the page were priced (in an older version of the website) at $6500 and $7800 for the freeway-capable versions.

The last vehicle, at the bottom of the page, is lithium powered. Based on their other prices, and its modest driving range, I would expect it to be priced between $10,000 and $20,000. Maybe even closer to the bottom of that range. I know nothing about the quality of these cars (and I might be afraid to ask) but the prices are potentially game-changing.

reddroverr

That sounds like a good price for a little run-around. Maybe 5500 by the time it is in your hands? With four seats it makes more sense to me than the Smart. Depends somewhat on how long the batteries will last as to if it is worth it on an econimic basis. I bet you probably don't want to spend too much time in that thing because of comfort, but who knows? I first pictured a scene from Return of the Pink Panther when Clouseau is driving a tiny "pickup".,,goes down a hill..the steering joy stick comes off in his hands ...and ends up in a swimming pool.

I'd stay off the freeway...you'll stick out like a sore thumb.

apeweek

Battery life: well, I drive a lead-acid powered EV, and I get up to 20,000 miles from a battery pack, if I take good care of it. For me, that works out to about 4 cents per mile (plus 1/2 to 1 cent per mile for electricity.) This depends also on the efficiency of the electric drive, since a more efficient EV will give you more miles per charge from a given battery, which in the end, becomes more miles per battery pack.

I though the lithium-powered car on the bottom of the page ( http://fevehicle.com/services.html ) was interesting because of the stats listed. They are claiming 6kwh/100km traveled. If that's true, it's about 10 miles per kilowatt-hour. That's considerably more efficient than a lot of EVs out there. It would explain how they can claim a 200km range from a little 12kwh lithium battery pack.

To put that in perspective, If I charged a car like that using the off-peak electric rate I get here in Detroit (3 cents/KWH), it would only cost me 3 TENTHS of a cent per mile to drive it.

gagrice

In all your EV group have any of them converted a Ford Ranger. I like this 99 Ranger that I have. Some day the engine or transmission will die. At that point I would consider converting it to diesel or electric drive.

It sounds like the Chinese are doing some serious engineering on electric motors.

apeweek

...At that point I would consider converting it to diesel or electric drive.

Here's an outfit that does EV conversions: http://grassrootsev.com/

plekto

Just expect by the time it gets imported and has everyone take a chunk in markup, plus the retail/dealer marking it up 50-100% to end up being $12K for a $4500 vehicle.

reddroverr

five cents a mile is pretty good. I guess with a yaris it is around ten cents give or take, plus upkeep. I am certainly not going to be the first on my block to buy one of these things from what appears to be a minor company in china. you could get it here and have worthless heater/defroster/steeringlinkage etc and little access to parts. Who knows. Keep us posted if you get more feedback.

tpe

They are claiming 6kwh/100km traveled. If that's true, it's about 10 miles per kilowatt-hour. That's considerably more efficient than a lot of EVs out there.

I've got to say I'm more than a little skeptical about that claim. Saying it's considerably more efficient is an understatement. That claim is about twice what I've seen from other EVs of comparable size. Given that EVs are already incredibly efficient I don't think a 100% improvement is even possible. And if it was it would probably require incorporating all the most expensive cutting edge technologies out there in order to achieve this, which isn't consistent with their listed price.

apeweek

You are probably correct - the figure is likely an exaggeration - which means the stated range isn't correct either. (4 to 6 miles/KWH are more common figures for EVs.)

However, a high miles per KWH figure isn't necessarily all due to efficiency improvements - it could just be a result of building a very small and lightweight vehicle. Such a vehicle requires less energy to move around. Still, 10 miles/KWH is a bit hard to believe.

I guess we'll have to wait until somebody tests the car.

reddroverr

yup, this is really a show-me company. Take a hardy soul to send money off to China on a wing and a prayer...you may not ever even get a car.

PF_Flyer

The Mixim is an interesting vehicle (as most concept cars are) but will it be practical?

Amp It Up

tpe

I like the fact that more auto manufacturers are pursuing EVs, and doing so voluntarily.

It's interesting that the Japanese manufacturers, who don't seem to have a problem meeting CAFE, are less interested in ethanol and biodiesel.

I disagree with the comment that we're a long ways from seeing EVs on the highways.

reddroverr

Seems like a typical concept car not meant to go anywhere. The whole driver in the middle flanked by two passengers a bit behind...not very practical it seems to me. I would have liked to see that money go into advancing techonolgy for a realistic EV/PHEV. But I suppose it is good advertising bang for the buck

Not as gimmicky as this one though:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/09/nissan_pivo_2_electric_car_robot/

reddroverr

AeroVironment and Other Companies Demonstrate Electric Car With Fast-Charge System

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071009/aerovironment_demonstration.html?.v=1

tpe

That article mentioned that Altairnano provided the battery pack. A little side-note. Altair's stock was up 31% today on volume that was 60x normal.

I've been following Altairnano for a couple years. Their particular Li-ion chemistry has it's own pluses and minuses. On the positive side it appears to be safe, capable of fast charge/discharge rates, and provides a very high cycle lifetime.

The major downside is that the energy density is not all that great. It is only around 65-70% of what other Li-ion chemistries are capable of. Meaning for a required range if you went with the Altairnano batteries the pack would weigh almost 50% more. In a pure EV application where you required 200+ mile range this would be a serious downside. But in the plug-in application where you only wanted to achieve 30-40 miles all electric range it would only result in another 100 lbs. in vehicle weight. IMO, not significant and more than offset by it's longevity.

reddroverr

I've been looking at alti stock too. It had tremendous support at ~$3. It will be a gift if it gets back there. It trades on news, so it wouldn't be out of the question that it does see that level again. Oh well. Feel free to PM me (I guess this board has that feature) if you want to discuss other stocks.

Lots of work going on in battery tech. Something is going to shake out that is practical. Your ideas on the Altair design make perfect sense. Price is of course a big factor. I hope that is solvable.

tpe

I agree that Altair trades on news. I don't own any shares so my opinion is unbiased. I noticed that they appointed a VP a few months ago who's background was in patent enforcement. I find that interesting. When we're talking about "new" technology it really becomes a grey area in what is fundamentally new or what is a variation of existing technology (patented). Hopefully there won't be any of these litigation wranglings that cause delays in the optimum battery solution for EV's

reddroverr

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/09/tokyo-2007-preview-subaru-g4e-concept/

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/electric-vehicle/aptera-electric-three-wheeler-availa- ble-for-pre+order-304567.php

the latter would come in a hybrid and ev. ev range 120 and freeway speed capable apparently. Looks like a tag of mid to high 20s. They get around safety regs by making it a three wheeler apparently...like a motorcycle. This car is not for me, but interesting none the less. If you bought one of these and the volt actually works...you really might be asking yourself why you bought it.

reddroverr

I don't own any either. I do think it is more likely to trade up on news of a buyout or something, before it might tank because the technology doesn't pan out. Perhaps a good buy might be the gap fill at ~3.50. Trading off again today.

Legal wrangles can be a problem for sure...though sometimes it seems the technology just goes ahead and they sort it out in the courts later.

reddroverr

Shai Agassi, a former SAP executive, said Tuesday that he's formed a company that will deploy the infrastructure to support electric vehicles through a grid of electric charging spots and battery exchange stations.


The Palo Alto-based entity, Project Better Place, will raise its first round of funding -- $200 million -- with investments from Israel Corp., Morgan Stanley, VantagePoint Venture Partners, and a group of individual private investors managed by Pomona Capital CEO Michael Granoff.

I suppose. Seems like a bit of cart before horse though.

gagrice

If the car makers do not get together on power receptacle it will be another boondoggle like the chargers that were everywhere for the EV-1. IF these are high speed charging devices they will also have to be matched to the battery type. That is not even set at this time. Sounds like an investment to steer clear of.

larsb

Samsclub is selling a Lithium-Ion powered electric SmartCar developed with Hybrid Technologies inc. The car can go 100 miles on a charge with a top speed of 80 MPH.

They are building ONE of the cars.

Just one.

Only....................ONE..............Car................

That is so ridiculous !!

Sell that car for $22,000 and sell hundreds, maybe thousands of them a year !!

Another "killing of the electric car" right before our eyes.

jeffyscott

If you are convinced that would be profitable, why don't you build and sell them for $22,000? Why doesn't anyone else? Is it a grand conspiracy or is just possible that there really is not much of a market for a teeny tiny car that can only go 100 miles and would cost $22,000?

larsb

The days of that kind of thinking need to be OVER. Ended.

People THINK they need a much larger car than they do.

The VAST MAJORITY of American commuters could DAILY use a 2-seater with a 100 mile range. Tens of millions of Americans could use that car.

This "teeny-tiny" bullcrap needs to go away too. We all need to use the MINIMUM SIZED car we can get our travel accomplished with.

But we stupid Americans are too enthralled by BIG things to have any common sense when it comes to car choices.

jeffyscott

So you have a plan to force all those who you have determined should use such a vehicle to buy one for $22,000? I could get to work in such a car, but I would not choose to do so...particularly if it will cost me $22,000.

You can be in denial all you want but that will not change the fact that there is not much of a market for this 100 mile range 2-seater at $22,000.

larsb

That's just my point - the fact that there is NOT a valid market for that car shows EXACTLY how stupid American car buyers are.

You know that the vast majority of American commuters travel alone?

And the vast majority travel less than 100 miles for that commute?

So why, praytell, would the VAST MAJORITY not be able to use a car which

A) Comfortably seats one person, or two going to the same place,
Has more than enough range for their commute AND their errands,
C) Has enough high speed range for the times their commute freeway "opens up" for them,
D) Uses ZERO GASOLINE and charges at night for a FRACTION of the cost of gasoline.

Anyone have a good answer to that question?

No, you don't.

And that's the PROBLEM.

PF_Flyer

I'm not sure calling those people who you want to buy something "stupid" is going to win over many hearts and minds.

I think the economic point is a valid one. If there was a market for anything, someone is going to fill that need with a product.
And it doesn't matter how great a product might be, if there's very little interest in it, it's not likely to be produced.

larsb

I'm not calling any one person in particular "stupid."

But there is no denying my stated facts that most American commuters could use that car for their commute and the fact that they do not clamor for it is indeed indicative of a certain "lack of logic" in making their car-buying decisions.

If it takes a few people being bold enough to call the attitude itself "stupid," then maybe someone's attention will be grabbed.

Revolutionary change is never completely civil and quiet. Ignoring the ignorance of the overwhelming attitudes of the American car buyer is not going to help.

jeffyscott

I don't think it is stupid to not want a $22,000 electric smart car with those limitations, when for 1/2 that amount I can get a small (but not tiny) car with no such limitations...or I can even get a regular smart car without those limitations for $10,000 or so less.

Yes, there may be some fuel cost savings, but not enough to make up for paying an extra $10,000.

apeweek

...that will not change the fact that there is not much of a market for this 100 mile range 2-seater at $22,000.

How would you know this? Of course, we will have no good way of measuring demand until a car like this actually becomes available mass-market.

There are several existing studies that show significant demand for electric cars, even cars with limited ranges and other flaws. Examples:
http://www.greencars.org/pdf/gcimarketing.pdf
http://repositories.cdlib.org/itsdavis/UCD-ITS-REP-96-09/

Certainly, as gas eclipses $4/gallon, the market for EVs will grow.

jeffyscott

From your own link (emphasis mine):

Our market research, conducted using standard
automotive industry techniques, shows 12 to 18 percent of new light-duty vehicle purchases in
California could be EVs if consumer-oriented vehicles were available at reasonable prices.

Electric vehicles also need to be tailored to consumer tastes in size, features
and functionality. That means they need to include four-door, four- or five-passenger sedans that include the amenities found in gasoline vehicles. Consumers have indicated they can deal with a contemporary EV’s range limitations if pricing is reasonable.

apeweek

...Yes, there may be some fuel cost savings, but not enough to make up for paying an extra $10,000.

Good point, so let's look at this. Let's say your little car gets 30mpg, and gas hits $4/gallon. An average driver, at 15,000 miles/year, will buy 500 gallons of gas, which totals $2000/year. The electric car, at 1 cent/mile, costs $150 to fuel. This means the electric car pays for itself in fuel savings in about 5 years.

If gas prices continue upward, the car will pay for itself even quicker.