Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

apeweek

...if pricing is reasonable.

EVs can be made for reasonable prices. Hobbyists do this right now - you can get an EV conversion from a little entrepreneur for $5,000 - $20,000.

China is making EVs at more than reasonable prices, if they were allowed to import them here (some people are working on getting them here right now.) Example: http://fevehicle.com/services.html

The high prices associated with EV startups we are seeing is just due to startup and development costs. It's extremely hard to launch a car here in the US, if you are not already an established player. This doesn't just apply to EVs. Lots of people have great ideas for cars of all types, but can't afford the marketing machinery and federal testing requirements. That's why there hasn't been a successful auto startup here in the US for decades.

larsb

I was just guessing at the $22,000 price, based on the fact that the Samsclub promotion had the whole package at $35K.

Since they are only building ONE of them, we are left to guess at what the price REALLY is for the car.

If they could sell 200,000 of them a year, and believe me, many more than that number of people could USE THIS CAR for their commute, they might get that price down a bit.

But even at that price, it's a good buy as a COMMUTER CAR. Of course not as the only car in the family. The AVERAGE
price for a new car is $28,000.

jeffyscott

Gas is not $4 per gallon. I don't think a 100 mile range car is going to find many 15,000 mile per year drivers to buy it.

Are you sure about the 1 cent per mile electric cost?

Try this with $3 per gallon gas and maybe 8000 miles per year, as pretty much a car to go to work and back in for one driver from a 2 car couple. At 25 mpg that is about $1000 per year for gas...now we have a 10 year pay back, even at zero fuel cost for the electric.

In any case, even breaking even after 5 years and 75,000 miles is not going to appeal to too many buyers, imo.

larsb

Forget about "breaking even."

Do gasoline car buyers worry about "breaking even?"

A car is a disposable consumable asset, not an investment, and one which in most cases loses it's market value very quickly.

Worrying about how much one car costs over another in a 5-15 year time frame is just a wasted exercise. Very few people care about that crap after the car is in the driveway.

If you can get the same job done (i.e. your commute) in a much cleaner and MUCH less expensive fashion and without the hassles of oil changes, fuel stops, etc, forget all the little piddly downsides !!

You drive the car to work, run your errands, drive it home and plug it in for the night.

apeweek

...Gas is not $4 per gallon.

I used that number because I think we'll be there pretty soon.

...Are you sure about the 1 cent per mile electric cost?

I drive an EV that gets 4 miles per KWH. I get an off-peak rate from my utility of 3 cents/KWH. This number can be confirmed here - Rate D1.7 in this document:
http://my.dteenergy.com/myAccount/pdfs/rates.pdf

That makes my own cost closer to 1/2 cent per mile. However, many EV makers use 1 cent/mile as the approximate cost of fuel.

...Try this with $3 per gallon gas and maybe 8000 miles per year...

I think most people reading this realize where gas is headed.

But, as others have pointed out, fuel cost is just one of the attractions. EVs tend to last longer (aside from battery changes) because the motor needs no maintenance. Fueling at home is attractive to some. Low noise, low pollution. Not financing the petroleum behemoth and the middle east is also a plus.

Demand is driven many different ways. You can't proclaim a lack of demand simply based on considerations most important to you.

jeffyscott

You can't proclaim a lack of demand simply based on considerations most important to you.

Uhh, I didn't I've said there is not much demand for a
100 mile range 2-seater at $22,000. Your own link confirmed this. There is little demand for any 2-seater to begin with.

When you get an off-peak discount doesn't that mean you pay more at other times? What is the weight of your 4 mi/kwH vehicle?

jeffyscott

Forget about "breaking even."

Do gasoline car buyers worry about "breaking even?"

This comment makes no sense. The "breaking even" statement was about comparing the cost of a gasoline car to a similar electric. It is certainly something I would look at.

Worrying about how much one car costs over another in a 5-15 year time frame is just a wasted exercise. Very few people care about that crap after the car is in the driveway.

Well, then do they care whether it costs $12,000 or $22,000 to get it in the driveway?

If you can get the same job done (i.e. your commute) in a much cleaner and MUCH less expensive fashion...

That's just it, it is not less expensive. I think at about a $5000 premium it would be getting close to a wash (leaving aside those "little piddly downsides") to have an electric car for commuting. I don't think we are there yet.

apeweek

...There is little demand for any 2-seater to begin with.

I suppose this depends on what the EV competition was. If this were to be the only mass-market EV offered for sale, I believe it could do well enough.

...When you get an off-peak discount doesn't that mean you pay more at other times? What is the weight of your 4 mi/kwH vehicle?

Not really an issue for me. Daytime electric use is pretty low in a typical home, when everybody is away at work/school etc. My electric bill doesn't seem to be out of line.

My vehicle, an old 1981 Jet Industries Electra-Van, weighs about 2200 pounds.

larsb

My point about the idiocy of talking about "breaking even" was followed by the pertinent statement:

A car is a disposable consumable asset, not an investment, and one which in most cases loses it's market value very quickly.

The point is: do you worry about "break even" when you buy a gasoline car? NO. You just buy the car, fuel it, and maintain it.

My point is that people should behave the SAME WAY when dealing with a commuter car which is alternately fueled - don't COMPARE it to a gas car and see how many pennies you might save in 75,000 miles - find out if the car fits your needs and your budget and BUY it. Just like you would a regular gasoline car.

Don't change the buying or the decision criteria merely because the vehicle is fueled by a different source than gasoline.

Once people stop comparing apples to oranges and just buy the "smallest fruit" which can do the job and which is cleaner and cheaper to operate, the USA will be a better place.

PF_Flyer

OK, you don't like the term "break even". How about "car A will cost me more than car B over the time I own it while doing the same job?"

People CERTAINLY compare prices on cars that do the same job and are in the same class of vehicle. And that's what "break even" is all about. It's not about your car making you money, it's about saving money on your total cost of ownership.

Just because a vehicle is a hybrid or electric doesn't suddenly make it immune to needing to meet my budget as well as my needs.

It's not apples to oranges. It's car to car.

apeweek

...How about "car A will cost me more than car B over the time I own it while doing the same job?"

Don't assume the EV would lose this comparison. A typical driver could easily spend $100-200 per month on gasoline. An EV driver would spend only about $15 for electricity over the same period. The savings would likely offset the increased car payment on the EV.

Once the car is paid off, those fuel savings go in your pocket.

jeffyscott

Don't change the buying or the decision criteria merely because the vehicle is fueled by a different source than gasoline.

You seem to be suggest that people should do exactly that...ignore the higher initial cost of the electric vehicle and buy it just because it uses electricity.

An electric costs more initially and less to operate. Why shouldn't one determine how much more it makes economic sense to pay, by comparing the total cost vs. a similar gasoline or diesel powered vehicle?

gagrice

Sorry I am so late to the debate. I see a lot of haggling over vapor ware. There is NO Li-Ion EV commuter car For Sale in the USA. I drove the little Xebra and was far less than impressed. It was pricey for a lead acid battery runabout that was limited to 35 MPH zones. It had 3 wheels to qualify as a motorcycle thus getting around the crash tests. I don't think you are going to see this hoped for 100 mile range 80 MPH commuter car for several more years. Until they come up with stable batteries that do not cost more than most people are will to spend for a whole car.

I think EVs will be hobby type vehicles for another 10 years.

snakeweasel

Don't assume the EV would lose this comparison.

Ok it looks like I am running into this debate a little late but here goes. For now most EV's would lose this comparison. That is until the price of EV's comes down somewhat. That $100-$200 per month that the average buyer pays per month for gas will easily be eaten up in extra car payments for an EV vehicle (if the difference is financed).

That means that the cost of a gas powered car (in monthly payments) plus the gas to use it might be cheaper than the monthly payments of the EV. Hence buying the gas powered car and driving it around is cheaper than buying the EV and leaving it in the Garage.

That being said maybe a 10% premium for an EV may make sense. a 25%+ premium doesn't.

tpe

All these "break even" arguments are based upon the assumption that the only reason a person would choose an EV or hybrid is to save money on gas. Is it possible that some people like to burn less gas simply because they think it is a good thing to do, like recycling? I don't know why people who are willing to pay a premium for being more environmentally friendly have to defend this position while people that pay a premium for more power or a European nameplate don't.

apeweek

...That $100-$200 per month that the average buyer pays per month for gas will easily be eaten up in extra car payments for an EV vehicle (if the difference is financed).

Well, this is one of those 'your mileage may vary' situations. I used a car loan calculator at

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/financing/calc/loanCalc.jsp?mode=full

And it looked to me like an extra $10k added (to a 5-year loan) usually works out to about another $100-200/month (depending on interest rate) for a fairly standard loan.

This is what I meant when I said the extra cost of the EVs car payments would be compensated for by gasoline savings.

So, if you drive more than an average driver (over 1200 miles/month), the EV would save you more than the comparable gas car. Drive less, and the savings aren't so much.

Get a low interest rate, and you make out with the EV as well.

Don't forget, once the car is paid off, the gasoline savings begin to go into your pocket.

apeweek

...I don't think you are going to see this hoped for 100 mile range 80 MPH commuter car for several more years...

I'm hoping we're closer than this. Here are at least two cars that are targeted for a 2008 introduction:

http://phoenixmotorcars.com/
http://www.milesev.com/ (click on 'Our Vehicles', then 'Highway Speed Sedan')

...Until they come up with stable batteries that do not cost more than most people are will to spend for a whole car.

I like to point to these Chinese LiFePO4 batteries, that are priced in the lead-acid range:

http://everspring.net/product-battery.htm

The above batteries are a big part of the reason I think imported Chinese EVs (see one of my previous posts for Chinese EV prices) will be the ones to watch.

gagrice

I like the idea of a vehicle I can plug in and use when I want without the hassle of filling it up with gas. If it costs more than driving a gas/diesel to own and operate, I do not see any good reason to go for it. Simplicity is the second main reason I like the EV concept. I would not consider Li-ion batteries for several years after they have proven themselves. I leave the wasting money to those that feel the need to be green. Plug in hybrids hold NO draw for me. KISS is my motto in life and I try to do that with the vehicles I buy. It is getting tougher to find any.

gagrice

I know your experience in the field surpasses most of ours and I will be watching closely. I really like the SUT that Phoenix is supposed to deliver this next year. They left out one thing in this statement.

it is equipped with a non-toxic, revolutionary Altairnano (NASDAQ: ALTI) NanosafeTM lithium-titinate battery, which can be recharged in less than 10 minutes and has a battery pack with a life of greater than 250,000 miles.

I would feel better about that statement if it included 10 years of life. As I would probably put about 50k miles in 10 years on one.

Those Chinese batteries sound pretty awesome. Do you know anyone that has ordered and installed them yet? If so what kind of price. I still think of the possibility of converting my Ranger when the V6 gives out some day.

apeweek

...I would feel better about that statement if it included 10 years of life....

Altairnano has waffled a bit on life, possibly because nobody can know for certain until they've been in the field that long. However, I have seen published estimates of 12 to 20 years for those batteries.

...Those Chinese batteries sound pretty awesome. Do you know anyone that has ordered and installed them yet?

Here are several hobbyist projects powered by Thunder Sky batteries:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/battb/THUN

jeffyscott

I like the idea of a vehicle I can plug in and use when I want without the hassle of filling it up with gas.

I like that idea too, but is it really much hassle to buy gas? I stop at a station on a road I am travelling on, slide my credit card, stick the nozzle in and wait a few minutes for it to click off. I'm then good for 400+ miles...which is about a month, if all I do is go to and from work. I don't know that plugging and unplugging my car every day, vs. stopping for gas every 3-4 weeks, would take much less time, in total.

snakeweasel

All these "break even" arguments are based upon the assumption that the only reason a person would choose an EV or hybrid is to save money on gas.

First thing to note is that a lot of the pro EV argument is that its cheaper to run.

Second the break even argument is based on a very simple economic premise that one would try to maximize utility with the minimum cost. In other words most people would chose the least expensive of two potions if both gave the same thing.

I don't know why people who are willing to pay a premium for being more environmentally friendly

Well one has to wonder if the EV's are truly more environmentally friendly. It is my understanding that the environmental impact of creating and then disposing the elements needed for an EV car outweigh the lesser impact that using an EV over a gas powered car has. Also you have to remember that the electricity has to be produced somehow. A lot of that that means burning oil or coal.

gagrice

That is one conglomeration of EV vehicles. It is intriguing to see all the ideas these people have. Who knows which one will hit the perfect balance and have a winner for the rest of us.

I like the way the website is laid out. Tracking different brands of components and equipment. Are you in there?

apeweek

...It is my understanding that the environmental impact of creating and then disposing the elements needed for an EV car outweigh the lesser impact that using an EV over a gas powered car has.

Untrue. This is nothing more than a bit of propaganda spread around by the various petroleum interests. I have seen this repeated countless times, but never explained, justified or proved. Since the EV has fewer and simpler parts, it will require less manufacturing input, not more. Therefore this argument must refer to EV batteries. But the newest designs for EV batteries have very minor environmental impact. Even old battery designs (like lead-acid) are fully recyclable. Besides, no conceivable 'battery pollution' could possibly compare with the drilling, pumping, shipping, refining, and burning of gasoline. Sorry, bogus argument.

...Also you have to remember that the electricity has to be produced somehow. A lot of that that means burning oil or coal.

Another old argument, just as baseless. The EV makes much more efficient use of energy all along the fuel chain. It's true that about 50% of electricity comes from coal (and just 3% from oil), but because of greatly improved efficiencies, the EV only creates a mere 3% of the pollution of a gas vehicle.

Sources:
http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/electric-powered-cars.html
actual study here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/CEC-999-1996-015.PDF

"...in a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs were significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity generation process produces less than 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to 3000 pounds for ICE vehicles."

apeweek

...I like the way the website is laid out. Tracking different brands of components and equipment. Are you in there?

My EV is in there, at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/775

snakeweasel

Untrue.

Unless you can provide a source for this I will presume that this is just propaganda as the creation and disposal of the batteries used does have a great environmental impact.

Another old argument, just as baseless.

Not baseless at all, electricity has to be created and its not going to be created cleanly. Unless its neclear and those plants are not being built. You want electricity for your EV oil and coal will be burnt to create it and there goes the clean factor.

gagrice

Do you have any plans to upgrade your van to Thunder Sky batteries? That seems like overkill if the vehicle does what you want it to do. I don't remember Jet industries. I'll check your website for the info. Looks like a fun little van for running errands. Would not want to go cross country in one.

apeweek

...Unless you can provide a source for this I will presume that this is just propaganda...

Here are a few sources. Below are a collection of studies that look at the entire process, well-to-wheels, of an electric vehicle:

http://sherryboschert.com/Downloads/Emissions%5B9%5D.pdf

As to EV batteries, Li-Ion batteries (current battery tech) are not considered an environmental hazard. Here's a source from the Oregon Dept. of Environmental Quality:

http://www.deq.state.or.us/lq/pubs/docs/hw/Success/OnToTechnology.pdf

A quote from the above: "The lithium-ion battery on-the-other-hand, is always in solution and therefore a lithium salt (not metal) which is non-reactive. "

AltairNano even claims their batteries are biodegradable.

...Not baseless at all, electricity has to be created and its not going to be created cleanly.

I cannot claim that coal is clean. However, because of the efficiencies of electricity generation, transmission, and use by the EV, that much less pollution - just a fraction - is generated overall. I quoted a study that showed this.

Here's why this is so: gasoline has lots of energy density, but many inefficiencies are present in its transportation, refining, and use. Fuel burns much more efficiently in a large powerplant than it does in your car. Sending the energy by wire to your car (about 97% efficient) also beats trucking fuel all over the country. And the motor in an EV is over 90% efficient as well.

Did you know lots of electricity is used to refine gasoline? Another interesting fact is that large powerplants operate at very low efficiencies overnight, when demand drops - wasting tons of fuel, because they can't be turned off. Charging EVs overnight can use that wasted fuel - without increasing pollution.

If you still disagree, post some evidence of your own. I would love to continue this discussion.

apeweek

...Do you have any plans to upgrade your van to Thunder Sky batteries?

I have considered it. However, I decided that because of the age of this vehicle, a large investment of time and money would not be prudent. In my next electric vehicle, definitely.

One of the things slowing the adoption of li-ions by the hobbyist community is that fact that these types of batteries require much tighter charging and discharging management to remain safe. That requires some serious engineering work, and not everybody is up to it. A few people are working on battery management systems that will become products for sale to hobbyists - when we all standardize on one of these, you'll see more hobbyists using li-ions.

tpe

Did you notice that the deal Tesla Motors made with Think Nordic to provide battery packs has apparently fallen through? They have decided to go with EnerDel as the battery provider.

enerdel batteries

daysailer

"Is it possible that some people like to burn less gas simply because they think it is a good thing to do, like recycling? I don't know why people who are willing to pay a premium for being more environmentally friendly have to defend this position while people that pay a premium for more power or a European nameplate don't."

It is laudable that some people are willing to pay a large premium for environmental reasons. But that won't drive a large market and thereby substantially affect the environment since most people are not wealthy enough to ignore the economics of such a substantial purchase as an automobile.

tpe

When I look around at the cars on the road I don't get the sense that people are buying the most affordable vehicle that satisfies their needs. It seems to me that a lot of people are spending a considerable amount more to satisfy their desires. Just like some people have a desire for power, convertibles, German nameplates, gigantic SUVs, etc., other people have a desire to be environmentally friendly.

gagrice

I think what you are saying is correct. The fact that so many people paid over MSRP for the Prius would bare out your point. They are not the average buyer however. All the vehicles you mention are niche vehicles. They appeal to a small segment of the population. I think that will be the case when and if we ever see usable EVs. I think I read that 80% of the Camry's sold are plain Jane 4 cylinder cars.

With the dollar falling off the scale and the economy faltering I think the environmental buyer will also think twice before spending the extra money, just to do his part.

daysailer

But EV dreamers suggest that buyers will BOTH abandon their desires AND pay an environmental premium. I may be cynical, but I don't expect that to happen.

tpe

You're missing my point. EV drivers will be satisfying their desire to be more environmentally friendly, not abandoning it. What is the motivation that drives people who recycle? It certainly isn't financial reward and there is time invested, so if you equate time to money then it's a similarly bad investment. Yet a lot of people do this. Are they idiots?

tpe

With the dollar falling off the scale and the economy faltering I think the environmental buyer will also think twice before spending the extra money, just to do his part.


The dollar's fall is one of the big factors currently pushing up the price of oil. If this continues it will make alternatives to burning gas more attractive to the group that is purely driven by the "break even" mentality.

dwhatshername

This all electric car seems too good to be true. I wonder if it will live up to it's expectations. No price tag listed. I love the fact that it's a cruck (car-truck), even with living up to he hype, would the cost of electricity recharge at night be too costly?
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html

snakeweasel

I may be cynical, but I don't expect that to happen.

You are not being cynical and its not going to happen. People tend to spend in such a way as to maximize their utility for the least amount of money.

tpe

People tend to spend in such a way as to maximize their utility for the least amount of money.

Really?? Then why do people buy Miatas, S2000's, etc.? Don't tell me there aren't less expensive vehicles that provide greater utility. The fact is that the decision to purchase a vehicle has a huge individual, emotional, non-practical, component.

EV's will definitely be a niche vehicle at first. Maybe they'll initially sell 50k units anually, which is a fraction of a percent of total car sales. Nevertheless, there are plenty of models out there that sell less than 50k per year but appear to be financially viable to market and produce. If you don't like EVs then don't buy one. I don't see the fascination with convertibles or huge SUVS yet I'd never say that they shouldn't be produced because obviously there are people with different tastes than me.

snakeweasel

I am talking about utility in an economic sense. That being the enjoyment/satisfaction that one receives from something or a group of things. Or the desiredness of that object.

So we are not talking about what you can do with the vehicle but how much you enjoy said vehicle. So people will only flock to EV's when their utility (or their personal satisfaction) per dollar is maximized by that EV.

Take your Miatas for example. Many people get their utility from them by taking long drives in them. This is something that cannot be done in an EV, so an EV has much less utility to these people. Hence the EV would have much less value to these same people.

Since EV's cost more there must be more utility in these cars for them to be accepted. To some that utility is there in the fact that it is supposively more economically friendly or that you are freed from using gas. But that will not be the case with everyone.

The fact is that the decision to purchase a vehicle has a huge individual, emotional, non-practical, component.

And that is where utility comes into play, utility is often influenced by emotion and varies by individual.

daysailer

When I last looked at the Meyers Motors website about a year ago, the price of their NmG EV cycle was around $25000 or about DOUBLE what its original builder, Corbin Motors had been asking only a few years earlier. To my knowledge the Meyers NmG is the only purpose-built EV to which mere mortals can (or could) aspire that one can actually buy today. My mouth fell open when I read that today you can buy that same vehicle for a mere $34,900!!!! A 50% increase in ONE year and 150% over 4-5 years??!!!. For that you get a one person, enclosed, 3 wheel motorcycle with a top speed of 75mph, 0-60 in 12.5s, range of 30mi and 598lbm of AGM pb-acid batteries that last 1-4 years with an on-board, 120vac charger that will recharge in 6-8hours (all per mfr claims). They say that an "advanced" battery option is in the works - I wonder what it will cost then?!

Assuming that the 1yr life would correspond to daily use at maximum range, and that the batteries are optima yellow tops (the only AGM battery in that size that I know of), gas for a 25mpg car must reach $5.62/g in order to break even on battery replacement cost ALONE!

No matter, the price will surely plummet next year when the market is flooded with 200+ mile range EVs, but of course then we'll all be riding flying pigs.

larsb

They are all "too good to be true" until they start landing in driveways.

This one looks as promising as any I have seen. Maybe they can keep the price under $30K and actually sell some of them.

tpe

While that vehicle is not available to the public it does exist and is capable of doing everything Phoenix Motorcars claims. Unfortunately at the present time the battery packs make it very expensive. The other red flag is that Phoenix was saying that they would deliver 600 of these vehicles for fleet use this year. That's not going to happen. They claim the delay is due to the fact they are waiting for some standards regarding recharging stations to be adopted but, IMO, that is somewhat suspect. My guess is that they're in need of financing.

Mitsubishi plans on producing an EV starting in 2009, the i-MIEV. We'll see. 2009 isn't that far off so if they are publicizing this date they must be well along in development.

gagrice

Not much of a vehicle for $35k. As someone that would be interested even with a 30 mile range limitation, that is a lot of money. My interest is not sticking it to the oil industry. I just want a lower cost per mile vehicle for running errands. I think that the reality check will be when companies have to pass all the safety crappola put out by the government. I think the concept of the Phoenix is good. Until they get 200 miles worth of batteries down under $5000 they will be a hard sell.

My research says that the average commute is much longer than the 12 miles, Meyers is claiming.

http://www.myersmotors.com/index.html

PS
I would buy the Smart ForTwo diesel sold in Canada long before I would consider the NMG from Meyers.

gagrice

It would be easier to take an existing Mitsubishi model and convert it to EV than build one from the ground up. I don't see companies like Phoenix having the capitol to give up several cars for the crash tests that will be required. And still the illusive battery issue. I think that is still the biggest hurtle to cross.

apeweek

A similar vehicle to the NMG would be the Zap Xebra, which is priced much more reasonably, at $10,000 (can't take it on the freeway, however.)

http://zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/xebra-sedan

gagrice

I test drove the Xebra. It had a cool factor and lots of head turning. Very crudely put together and noisy. I would be more apt to doing a conversion on my 99 Ranger when the engine gives up in a few years. The Zap dealer called the other day. He has one of the Xebra PU trucks with the solar panels on the top. I think I could get it for about $11k cash. Not a bad deal.

reddroverr

And that is where utility comes into play, utility is often influenced by emotion and varies by individual.

One person may get as much pleasure from never visiting a gas station as the next might get from a long drive in a Miata. Why in the world are we in oregon running out of alt energy to meet the demands of those who want to pay the premium price for renewable? But for now, the EV's available aren't going to cut mass market. GM's Volt which is probably 80%+ EV for most..will...if they can swing it.

snakeweasel

The thing is which would one find more inconvient?

Spending a few minutes at a gas station to be able to drive more than 100 miles every 5 hours or being limited to a 50 mile radius?

To me being limited to a 50 mile radius is far more inconvenient to me.

reddroverr

"To me being limited to a 50 mile radius is far more inconvenient to me. "

and to quote your other words...

"varies by individual."

For some it might be fine for a second car and other postivie utils would outweigh the range limitation. I've already said that I don't think Ev's are ready for the mass masses yet, but with some reduction in battery price and they do become more desirable to more people. Add in some on the road quick charging stations and still more come on board. PHEVs will be the short term direction if they pan out. They will be just as convenient as an ICE. Just one gas shock in price and/or supply and the value of the stable supply of electricity (cost and availability), becomes more of a factor...and even your utils may vary.