Electric Vehicle Pros & Cons

gagrice

Developed by scientists at Firefly Energy, carbon foam is a material that's revolutionizing the battery industry. Compared to lead plates - one of the main components of most conventional truck batteries - carbon foam delivers longer service life, increased energy efficiency and better performance under extreme conditions. That's why we used it to create our revolutionary Oasis Group 31 battery. Oasis' carbon foam design resists sulfation and corrosion (two of the primary causes of failure in lead-acid batteries), while dramatically increasing the surface area within the battery, resulting in greater energy capacity, faster recharges, and deeper discharge capability...

http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=273&Itemi- d=100

apeweek

...carbon foam is a material that's revolutionizing the battery industry...

The Firefly product is the battery tech I have been most anxiously awaiting. These batteries will give performance roughly on-par with much more expensive NIMH technology, and should be easy drop-in replacements for existing lead-acid applications. That means lots of EV hobbyists will be able to instantly improve their rides. It should be a shot in the arm to existing EV converters, as well, who will be able to offer a much better product to the general public - inexpensive EV conversions with 100-200 mile driving ranges.

gagrice

The fact that coal is the basis for these batteries it seems too good to be true. With nickel going up by 50% in the last 12 months, has to make NiMH batteries more expensive. Cobalt went from $40,000 to $60,000 per ton over the last year. That will mean 50% higher prices for Li-Ion batteries. I think these batteries are going to be built in the USA which is that much better for US.

They are much better for the environment:

Firefly Energy’s patented carbon-graphite foam plate technology presents a number of environmental advantages.

First, we replace the heavy, corrosion-prone lead grids, which comprise up to 70% of a typical lead acid battery’s weight, with a non-toxic material. Therefore, there’s less lead to recycle at the end of life.

Secondly, this lightweight foam is porous, and it provides more surface area for the energy-generating chemistry to occur. This means that less lead chemistry is needed than in a typical lead acid battery, leading to less lead recycled at end of life.

Thirdly, because the positive lead metal grids corrode and the negative metal grids sulfate, life is shortened in a typical lead acid battery. The Firefly foam is much more resilient against these two common failure modes. Longer life means a lower volume of batteries recycled.

Finally, the technology developed by Firefly Energy reduces both human exposure risk and hazardous waste generation. Batteries containing Firefly’s technology can be recycled through the existing lead acid recycling infrastructure. Other “advanced technology” battery alternatives, such as nickel metal hydride and lithium ion, do not have any recycling infrastructure. In fact, the battery’s owner must actually pay the recycler to take the battery! Carbon is already used to increase the temperature for the smelting of lead. Firefly’s carbon-graphite foam plate material is simply burned away – and actually is a net fuel for increasing smelting temperatures - and the remaining lead in the battery is recycled.

jeffyscott

Cobalt went from $40,000 to $60,000 per ton over the last year. That will mean 50% higher prices for Li-Ion batteries.

No, it means the cost of one of the raw materials used is 50% higher for the manufacturer. There is a lot more to the cost of making a battery (and most things) than just the cost of raw materials and there are also things other than manufacturing costs that are involved in determining the market price for a product.

gagrice

It looks to me like cobalt is a very important element in the manufacture of Li-Ion batteries. The high cost of cobalt will raise the future price of Li-Ion batteries, to some extent.

Whittingham notes that although the titanium sulfide battery was technologically sound, it wasn't a commercial success. Success with lithium-ion batteries came some 15 years later when Sony introduced a battery that incorporated a lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) cathode and a lithium-intercalated carbon (LiC6) anode. The cobalt-based battery was a hit with portable electronics applications because of its ability to store a lot of energy in a small, lightweight package.

PS
I think with all the downsides to Li-Ion we should be looking at other technologies. I think Caterpillar has hit on just such a possibility.

apeweek

...It looks to me like cobalt is a very important element in the manufacture of Li-Ion batteries. The high cost of cobalt will raise the future price of Li-Ion batteries, to some extent.

The most common EV lithium battery is LiFePO4, without cobalt. This type of battery is also safer and longer lived than the LiCoO2 cell (it doesn't explode, either.)

Materials costs are rising because of the falling dollar. Any materials that can be locally mined will have an advantage.

reddroverr

nice. the more angles worked on, the more likely we get a practical product.

gagrice

That is where I am coming from. May the best battery win. Hopefully one that can be built in the good old USA...

PF_Flyer

The Xebra becomes the first four-door electric car to be approved for street use in the UK.

Check the Alternate Route's take on being Street Legal

tpe

Enerdel should be mass producing Li-ion batteries for EVs, PHEVs, and HEVs within the next year. Their headquarters is in Fort Lauderdale and their manufacturing plant will be in Indianapolis. They have already signed a contract with Think Nordic to provide batteries for their EVs to be produced starting in 2009. This contract is estimated to be worth anywhere from 70 million to 200 million dollars. Think Nordic was originally going to get their battery packs from Tesla Motors but has apparently reconsidered.

Enerdel's battery technology is similar to Altairnano's, no Cobalt or risk of thermal runaway. They also claim that the price of these battery packs will be low enough to allow for drivers to recoup the initial price premium of an EV within 2 years. We'll see but it sounds pretty good.

reddroverr

They also claim that the price of these battery packs will be low enough to allow for drivers to recoup the initial price premium of an EV within 2 years. We'll see but it sounds pretty good.

Let's hope so, but that statement in itself is pretty vague. Do they give what they based that statement on? I looked at the company. Tiny little thing...perhaps..perhaps.

reddroverr

And yet another battery in the running:

"Lithium ion batteries developed by the German company called Li-Tec, which is taking part in a development program with Bosch, "take up 30% less volume than those from Toyota" and "allow you to go three times further for the same weight than French models, " according to Li -Tec director Tim Schaefer.

Li-Tec’s ‘Separion’ system consists of two lithium electrodes in an electrolyte, separated by a flexible ceramic membrane that reportedly provides greater thermal stability than has so far been achieved in lithium ion batteries. Their tendency to overheat is what led Toyota to delay installing li-ion batteries in the forthcoming third-generation Prius hybrid. Other consortia besides Bosch are also developing lithium ion battery technologies focused on thermal control."

http://puregreencars.com/Green-Cars-News/Technology/Li-Tec-Reports-Lithium-Ion-B- attery-Breakthrough.html

tpe

Here's another one

toshiba

Not a lot of specifics in this article other than a 5 minute recharge time and 10 year lifespan.

The field of companies conducting R&D on advancing battery technology is definitely getting crowded.

PF_Flyer

Wouldn't it be great to find Cool Stuff under the tree in the morning?

PF_Flyer

More electric vehicle news on the Alternate Route

Perfect Storm?

marketdisc

I have a few questions about batteries for Electric Vehicle, especially by Thunder Sky (TS):

1. Is it really viable?
I choose a TS product:
MODEL NO：TS-LFP90AHA
Nominal Capacity ：90AH
Operating Voltage：2.5V～4.25V
Weight：3kg±100g
Dimensions：145×220×68（mm）

Let me assume its votage is 4.00V, then the capacity of a battery is 4V x 90 Ah - 360 Wh. I know a 1.2ton-car driving at 100 km/h needs power of about 13 kw. Then a TS battery can drive the car by 360 Wh / 13 kw= 0.08 hours, i.e. 2.8 km. So to drive 280 km the car needs 100 pieces of batteries, weighting 300 kg. But it is unlikely to drive a car with 300 kg batteris. Was my calculation correct?

2. May I know the installed-based for ThunderSky automobiles, especially in Europe in 2005-2007? Who are its main customers? What sale growth do you expect - Any committed contract?

3. What's the difference for batteries used on Fuel-cell EV, Hybrid EV, and Battery EV?

plekto

No, your calculations are exactly right. Most EVs have a thousand pounds or more of batteries and the makers extrapolate their best case scenario and then multiply it times the battery capacity to get "mileage".

Real world, it's often 1/2 of that.

apeweek

Your best bet is to talk to others who have used the Thunder Sky batteries in their EVs. Here's a page with several of them:

http://www.evalbum.com/battb/THUN

reddroverr

1. yes batteries are heavy, but the main problem at this point is cost.

2. sounds like you want someone to do investment research for you. contact the company or other sources.

larsb

This looks like it really might happen:

Mitsu MiEV coming soon to Japan, then the UK? USA when?

When it comes to city cars, the Splash is the future for Suzuki – but can the same be said of Mitsubishi’s new i? Powered solely by electricity, it doesn’t emit any CO2 on the move and sprints from 0-60mph five seconds quicker than the petrol version.

Called the i MiEV (which stands for Mitsubishi innovative Electric Vehicle), the car goes on sale in Japan next year and could make it here after that. Auto Express took a drive to see if it really is a glimpse of tomorrow’s world

Apart from the stickers and a plug-in socket, the exterior is identical to the regular i. Inside, the only changes are the addition of a battery meter, while the auto box is swapped for a selector with two modes – Drive and Eco.

Out goes the 660cc three-cylinder turbo petrol engine and in comes an electric motor running off lithium-ion batteries spread underneath the seats.

Power is identical to the petrol car, at 63bhp, but torque is up from 85Nm to 180Nm. Response is instantaneous, and the i races from 0-60mph in less than nine seconds in virtual silence.

Despite carrying an extra 180kg, it actually handles better than the petrol model, thanks to a lower centre of gravity, and it rides comfortably. Drive hard, though, and the batteries will run out within one hour – which is where Eco mode comes in.

This drops power to 42bhp, and Mitsubishi claims you can travel 100 miles before recharging. Choose the special quick-charge mode, and you can refill the batteries to 80 per cent capacity in half an hour.

PF_Flyer

A very interesting bit of electric vehicle news came up on the Alternate Route this morning...

Bond, James Bond

PF_Flyer

A very interesting bit of electric vehicle news came up on the Alternate Route this morning...

Bond, James Bond

dwhatshername

I think the estimate for the Phoenix SUV is around 60K. Here is an email I got from Phoenix Motorcars just recently:

Thank you very much for registering your name on the Phoenix Motorcars electric vehicle waitlist. We have received an enormous amount of interest from prospective customers like you this past year. And, with your encouragement and support, we have developed a best-in-class, electric vehicle that offers drivers the following performance benefits:

· 100+ mile range;

· Speeds of 95 m.p.h. carrying four passengers and a full payload;

· 0 to 60 mph in 10 seconds;

· Long life lithium titanate battery;

· 10 minute recharge capability (using a 480V charger); and

· Availability in both SUT and SUV configurations.

Please note that we are also working with a leading vehicle customizer, Darkside Motoring™, to create a limited edition vehicle to celebrate our launch. In fact, you may have already seen our Red & Black Darkside show car. Likewise, our 2008 limited edition model will offer a premium paint, interior and wheel package.

As you may have already heard, we will be delivering our first production vehicles to customers this year. Accordingly, we would like to offer you the opportunity to pre-order a Phoenix Motorcars’ electric vehicle. If you are interested in placing an order, please sign and return the form below. A Phoenix Motorcars Sales Representative will then contact you to discuss the necessary details. Please note that pre-orders we will require a down-payment (25% for standard delivery, 100% for priority delivery), which shall be fully refundable up to 60 days prior to the delivery date.

For those of you who simply wish to remain on the waitlist, no action is needed at this time. We will keep you posted on our production plans, and look forward to working with you.

We would like to thank you once again for your continued support. Please do not hesitate to contact Robyn Conway at (909) 987-0815 if you have any questions.

Very Truly Yours,

Bryon Bliss

VP, Sales & Marketing

www.phoenixmotorcars.com

reddroverr

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/02/29/079263.html

Daimler claims that they are first to get the li-ion in practical mode for autos. Don't know if that's true or not. I do know that the hybrid in the piece gets around 30 mpg. Nothing to write home about, but good for a powerful luxury car I suppose.

etraveler

Important controversy regarding lithium battery brands:

Thunder Sky Batteries; Dark Cloud or Silver Lining?
http://www.electric-echo.com/blog/?p=53

ThunderSky Lithium-Ion Cells - LiIon experiences
http://www.casadelgato.com/ThunderSky/

Basic guidelines for selecting the battery and points to consider
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/battery.htm

Battery Manufacturers Listed By Country
http://www.bicycle-power.com/batteries.html

PF_Flyer

Found an interesting op-ed piece about the rush to be "green"

Blarney

tpe

I rarely hear an EV enthusiast that doesn't acknowledge the downside to recharging from electricity generated by a coal fired power plant. The author of that piece is clueless if he thinks otherwise.

The fact that 50% of our energy is generated by burning coal is a problem that needs to be addressed but it is not a problem that EVs created. Certainly recharging EVs would aggravate this problem if we choose not to transition from coal.

We use coal because it is cheap and plentiful. In this country we will sacrifice the environment if the price is right. That mentality will continue to apply when it comes to using coal to power our EVs. If it is wrong to use coal to recharge an EV then it is also wrong to use coal to power our clothes dryers, light our homes, heat/cool our homes, etc..

At least in the case of EVs you are trading one form of pollution for another. Unless all of your electricity comes from the dirtiest coal power plants you won't actually be creating more pollution. So from the "green" perspective it could be argued that there is no major benefit. However there is another, potentially more important, issue here. Our dependence on foreign oil and all the negative consequences that entails. The potential for EVs to reduce oil consumption is significant and indisputable.

gagrice

A Phoenix Motorcars Sales Representative will then contact you to discuss the necessary details. Please note that pre-orders we will require a down-payment (25% for standard delivery, 100% for priority delivery), which shall be fully refundable up to 60 days prior to the delivery date.

I hope you did not send them any money. My Uncle sent a deposit on a Tucker. All he got was a radio. A very expensive lesson.

I like the looks of the little PU. The price would have to be around $25k for me to give it a second look. It is a local short range vehicle for picking up stuff at the store. It would be competing with my $4K 1999 Ford Ranger. Not many folks are going to plunk down $60 for that vehicle.

plekto

I'd certainly trade a few large sources of pollution for millions of less efficient ones. And that's not counting spilled fuel, MBTE and other additives, and so on that leech into our water supply. Coal may be a very dirty method of making electricity, but it's vastly more efficient and less polluting than gasoline is.

My bet, though, is on compressed air. Essentially you're using the same electricity as the EV to charge the thing up, just you're charging it with a compressor instead of an inverter. This at least saves the cost and damage of the batteries to the environment. Plus, you could have an on-board compressor as well powered off of a solar panel on the roof if you wanted to extend your range a bit.

It's not as sexy as hybrids or fuel cells, but it's the most viable option long-term that I have heard of for passenger vehicles.

michael2003

I would also agree that it's probably easier and less costly to clean up the large electric generating sources than it would be to do the same to the millions of vehicles.

Regarding the use of compressed air; I believe I've read that it takes quite a bit more electricity to travel a comparable distance due to the inefficiency of existing air compressors. But, perhaps this could change if it's something that get's sufficient attention. I've also read that several of the newer battery technologies are much better for the environment due to their being non-toxic and/or recylable.

I'm certainly looking forward to a reduction in gas usage, however it happens.

dwhatshername

I haven't spent any money, just observing. It looks like the price will be $47,500 for the SUT, and $54,000 for the SUV. They have a nice little calculator that helps you figure out how much money you would save in the long run:
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/why-choose-phoenix/roi-calculator.php

If the vehicle batteries last as long as originally claimed, you should be able to go 250 miles on one charge. Hardly a short range vehicle.

gagrice

That is a cool little calculator. It would take at least 12 years to break even. What they have left out is the interest on the money saved with purchase of a gas equivalent. I cannot imagine them staying in business unless they can get the price down at least within range of a comparable vehicle. It will be a novelty until it is under $30K. It will be interesting to see if states like CA force them to 10 years or 150k miles on the battery, as they did with the hybrids. According to their website it is 3yr 36k mile bumper to bumper.

PS
They are only claiming 100 miles range.

larsb

Zap is ZAPPED

ZAP appears to be a joke.

plekto

My wife's family is from that area and the locals in Santa Rosa all know that those two are old-school con men who never deliver. It's almost become a bit of a local urban legend as far as what is happening with them from month to month.

But the article is right. They are responsible for a lot of damage. Their stunts with DC alone resulted in the Smart Car being delayed a full year or more. They appear good in the press, but they just don't seem to bother to actually get in the shop and build the vehicles.

gagrice

So tell us how this is any different than the Carbon Credit scam tied to Al Gore & GW?

In spite of all this, the pair now running the company, Starr and CEO Steve Schneider, enjoy lucrative employment packages that have made them millions. Their compensation — and ZAP's continued existence as a business — heavily depends on the continual issuance of new stock shares. And although ZAP has earned an annual profit only once in its 16 years of existence

This is the guy that took us for a test drive in the Xebra. You gotta feel for the ones that have gotten suckered into the "Green movement"

"They tug at your heartstrings," says Joseph Gottlieb, a ZAP dealer from the San Diego area who has filed an official complaint against ZAP with the Securities and Exchange Commission. "If ZAP was in any other business, the company would have been dead long ago. But they keep taking advantage of how much environmentalists — like me — want to see electric cars come to market."

I wonder if it is too late to sell my ZAP stock :sick:

larsb

It's different because AlGore and GW are not PERSONALLY POCKETING any of that money, that's how it's different.

And it's not a crime to want electric cars to come to market and be viable. It SHOULD be a crime to do what these guys have done to some of those ZAP dealers who paid them +$100K.

tpe

You gotta feel for the ones that have gotten suckered into the "Green movement"


Con artists typically exploit a worthwhile cause. I'm sure a lot of people donated to Hurricane Katrina funds that weren't legit. That doesn't negate the cause.

gagrice

It's different because AlGore and GW are not PERSONALLY POCKETING any of that money,

So A. Gore went from a net worth under a million to $100 million selling books on the GW Hysteria. I would say that is more than pocket change.

I think the ZAP got zapped by the EPA and CARB. they were blocked every move they made. Just as all the EV companies will get shoved under. EPA and CARB feed off of big business bribes. Big business does not want us to be free from oil.

larsb

Looks like the UK is going to get a usable electric car on the road before the USA.

Think Electric

The compact battery-powered run-about, which goes on sale in the UK at the end of the year, has a range of more than 100 miles, and a top speed of 60mph. Better still, it’s constructed to proper crash test standards and doesn’t look too bad, either!

But the key question is, how does the electric TH!NK perform on the road? From behind the wheel of the Norwegian-built 2+2, everything looks refreshingly normal. There’s a proper dash, familiar dials, automatic gearshifter, regular key – all made to a high standard. Only a charge gauge and prominent button marked ASSIST give away the fact that the car is powered by an electric motor.

And although the design is not as cool as that offered by the likes of the Smart ForTwo, room up front is on a par, plus buyers are given the option of cramming two children in the back seats, too. It all looks familiar, partly because of the plundered Ford parts. The TH!NK project was the blue oval’s baby until it bailed out in 2002, leaving the Norwegians scrabbling to fund the launch. Six years on, the car is back, with one big difference: the battery is lithium-ion – the latest, most powerful available.

Turn the Ford key and a hum alerts you that the 40bhp electric motor is ready to go. Shift into Drive, press the accelerator and it doesn’t have as much instant acceleration as some electric cars, but instead the silent shove builds and builds. It feels as quick as a supermini, confirmed by the quoted 6.5-second 0-30mph time – not bad as it weighs a hefty 1,400kg.

jeffyscott

I have never understood why Europe is not way ahead on electric vehicles (or are they?). They have had much more expensive gas for a long time and I would assume there are more people for whom the short range is not a significant problem.

tpe

How much money have people made preaching a carbon based economy? They use fear as a tactic also, telling you that our standard of living is directly linked to our use of carbon based energy. Then you have the millions of people, like ourselves, that have positions/opinions that aren't based on any personal expertise in the field. We read the conflicting data from the established experts. We then choose to subscribe to the expert opinions that will have the least negative impact on our life's.

snakeweasel

How much money have people made preaching a carbon based economy?

Seeing that carbon is the basic building block of all live on this planet I would say tons. Thats just the opinion of one carbon based life form.

Ducking and running

tpe

We're talking about energy not life. Energy can be produced without the benefit of carbon molecules. Your comment tells me that you're on the side that subscribes to the notion that the standard of living cannot be improved without producing more CO2. While I disagree your POV definitely puts you in the majority.

snakeweasel

Your comment tells me that you're on the side that subscribes to the notion that the standard of living cannot be improved without producing more CO2.

Really? How so? My comment would tell most people that I am a wise a**.

A sense of humor is a wonderful thing, try one sometime.

jeffyscott

Energy can be produced without the benefit of carbon molecules.

Okay, so why don't you give up the preaching and get about the hard work of producing that energy and figuring out a way to sell it at a profit?

gagrice

How much money have people made preaching a carbon based economy?

I don't see people preaching it. I see people selling it and making money on our carbon based society. I am waiting for alternatives myself. I don't think we will divest ourselves of the use of carbon for at least a couple more centuries. We have enough coal for several hundred years. That is not going to just go away without a less expensive alternative.

As far as EVs, I am not optimistic. I think other alternatives will come along and steal the show. The current direction of battery development is not very promising.

tpe

We have enough coal for several hundred years. That is not going to just go away without a less expensive alternative.

I disagree. There may not be less expensive alternatives but there will be better alternatives. I believe CA is already transitioning away from using electricity generated from coal. Hawaii generates very little of their electricity from coal. The same is taking place in many European countries. I don't see this trend reversing itself. Is it your opinion that since coal is the cheapest source we should be maximizing it's use?

As far as EVs, I am not optimistic. I think other alternatives will come along and steal the show. The current direction of battery development is not very promising.

Just about every major auto manufacturer has an ongoing EV program. Their CEOs are pretty much in agreement when it comes to the eventual electrification of the fleet. Maybe these EVs won't use batteries, maybe it will be hydrogen, ultra-capacitors or some yet to be discovered storage device. However they will be EVs, not ICE powered vehicles.

I'm not sure why you are so pessimistic when it comes to battery development. It seems to me that development here is taking place at a rapid pace. Today's best Li-ion batteries have over twice the energy density of the best NiMH batteries from 10 years ago. The only remaining hurdle is cost. From what I'm reading that will largely be overcome through mass production. The battery packs may never be cheap but they don't need to be in order for battery powered EVs to make financial sense.

One of the things GM is considering for the Volt is leasing the battery packs. I think this would be a good idea given that the battery pack will represent the biggest area of uncertainty for most buyers. Some people are fundamentally opposed to leasing because they want to own something. In this particular case I don't see the issue. You are leasing a battery pack as opposed to buying gasoline. At the end of the year how much of the gasoline that you purchased do you still own?

plekto

The most promising technology is that rotary air engine that's being developed in Australia. It's essentially a modern take on a very old bit of technology - the steam engine. Just you compress the air using whatever means you want(in theory, you could hook the compressor up to a bicycle if you wanted, I guess...).

Few moving parts, no ugly metals or chemicals. Safe, cheap, and an infinite supply. This is about twice as efficient as the other engine/design.

http://www.engineair.com.au/

That air car they are selling in France isn't half bad, either. Same range as an electric vehicle, but none of the upkeep or cost.

http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=accueil

gagrice

I'm not sure why you are so pessimistic when it comes to battery development. It seems to me that development here is taking place at a rapid pace. Today's best Li-ion batteries have over twice the energy density of the best NiMH batteries from 10 years ago.

I am not arguing the capacity of Li-Ion batteries. I am skeptical of the heat and longevity issues surrounding the technology. A battery without a 10 year life span is of NO value to me in an EV. I do not drive a lot of miles. I want my car ready to go when I do decide to drive it. That was one reason I dropped the Prius. You leave for a month and the car will likely be dead on your return. My experience with NiMH in laptops is better than with Li-Ion. A couple years and they are junk and hard to find a place to dispose of them.

Hawaii generates very little of their electricity from coal.

They may not be the case in the future with the high price of diesel. Most of their electricity comes from Diesel. Coal is MUCH cheaper for generation. There has been a lot of hype about wind & solar generation in Hawaii. It is less tahn 2% at present. Geothermal would be Ok except it is running up against pagan religious beliefs. Coal is the cheapest electric for most of America. Unless you go Nuclear on a very large scale. I don't see us dropping below 50% coal generation for a Long time.

reddroverr

sounds like another don't hold your breath idea, but it is good to see people working on different things. There is the problem of compressing the air in the first place and how compressed does it need to be. I seem to hear engines going when I get air at the gas station.