Hyundai wants Jaguar. Good idea?

scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
edited March 2014 in Hyundai
The Guardian (London) is reporting that Hyundai wants to buy Jaguar.

Hyundai sees Jaguar as a quick way to enter the premium vehicle market. Ford is exploring the sale of Jaguar and Hyundai has the money for a deal.

"Jaguar...owned by Hyundai of Korea? The...seismic shift in the British carmaking landscape could be just around the corner"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1837984,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=- - - 24
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Comments

  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    ...bad for Jaguar. I don't think Hyundai would steer Jaguar correctly. Style is Jaguar's defining trait (or at least should be) and I don't see anything exciting style-wise coming from Korea. They're more about value and features for the dollar.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Member Posts: 3,425
    "JAGDAI" How prophetic? :P
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Jaguars do not share any componentry with the rest of Ford, meaning you have to recover all r&d costs from sales of Jaguar.

    The new aluminum frame Jaguars are as good as they have ever been. But somewhere along the way, the brand has lost all of its afficianados.

    Hyundai ownership is not going to change that.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    How much worse could it be?
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Isn't the DEW98 platform sourced from Ford? It was my understanding that it is what underpinned the S-type and was lengthed and stiffened for the XJ...
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Yes, and the X-type shared with the Euro Focus.

    My understanding is both are on the way out, and both played a big part in bringing Jaguar's esteem down further than it had been.

    The large sedans, coupe and convertible that truly mean Jaguar to the world share nothing with the rest of Ford.

    Ford did a great job with these cars. But they cannot amortize that work anywhere else.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Good for Ford in a financial sense, but I would still rather see Ford stick it out and rebuild the brand like they are (very slowly) doing with LR. I mean, look at Lincoln! It is an empty shell of its former self and IMO needs WAY more help than Jag. Lincoln has two products, the Navigator (IMO superior to the Escalade in ways) and the Zephyr, a rebadged but respectable Fusion knockoff (But still a Fusion). The Mark X is no less of a failure than the Blackwood and the Town car is going on 10 years old and resides in the depreciating hell that is fleet sales...

    At least Jag has a smidge of identity. Take away the X-type and Jag still maintains a sense of style and flair not found in your typical Ford vehicle. I don't know, maybe I am completely wrong in this but I think if anything, Ford needs to drop Lincoln and even Mercury, pool that money to come up with a killer RWD/AWD ONLY lineup that rivals the best from Germany and heres an idea :surprise: :

    Merge the Jag dealers with Land Rover and voila you've got one hell of a lineup! I think it would be much more successful than what is happening at Merc/Lin at the moment.

    On a side note, LLN was reporting a possible inclusion of Land Rover to sweeten the deal for the potential buyer of Jaguar. Not sure if that was for real though.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...shared a platform with Ford's Mondeo (Ford's Accord-size car in Europe). The European Focus shares a platform with the Mazda3 and Volvo V40 and S40.

    A fair amount of engineering expertise and components has been shared among Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston-Martin, from what I've read.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The new aluminum frame Jaguars are as good as they have ever been. But somewhere....the brand lost its afficianados

    That is so true. The new cars are great: Jaguar XJ sedans and the XK lines still have the premium image.

    Is there only so much room in the premium field? Jag is very English and offers a real alternative.

    Hyundai can't do worse with Jaguar than Ford. Asian companies have a lot of respect for tradition and heritage which may help.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    A fair amount of engineering expertise and components has been shared among Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston-Martin, from what I've read.

    Could well be. But none of them are making a dime. Porsche and BMW almost overnight devasted LR's hold on the luxe SUV market.

    Aston's are even cooler than the new Jaguars. But what does it matter, when you only sell 4 or 5 (joking) a year?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Koreans getting a hold of Jaguar could go either way. If Hyundai give Jaguar the money it needs to build up a proper product range, but otherwise stands back, then Hyundai ownership would be great. However if Hyundai starts trying to change what a Jaguar is by doing a GM/Saab type of deal then forget about it, I'd rather see Jaguar just shutdown first.

    Jaguar has made a series of mistakes that have cost them dearly. The next XJ is a good car, but it looks too much like the old one. They're supposed to be fixing that for 2009. The new XK is for the most part done right, but it can't save the company.

    Like some have stated earlier all Jaguar needs is a little more investment and time under Ford (well a healthy Ford). All Jaguar needs a new rwd platform that can be shortened or lengthened depending on the model in question. Such a platform could underpin the next X-Type, S-Type and that F-Type sports car concept they showed a few years back. Take the new Volvo I6 and tune it for more hp and lastly give the aged (and not underpowered) AJ V8 a complete re-work and Jaguar's problems would be solved. The cost of all of this you ask? About 2-3 billion bucks that Ford doesn't have right now.

    Then there is something else to think about, the stigma of being owned by "Hyundai". It is one thing to be owned by Ford, but Hyundai? Already the uninformed say that Jaguars are nothing but re-badged Fords so you can imagine what will be said if Hyundai buys Jaguar.

    I think Ford should sell off Jaguar and Land Rover because Land Rover faces an extremely uphill battle selling nothing but SUVs and Jaguar is dying anway so I say chuck them both. Keep Volvo, they make money and the safety engineering is priceless, and Aston-Martin is so small, but gorgeous enough to survive due to their clients being rich enough not to care about "gasoline prices".

    I have to admit though I like the idea of a Jaguar/Land Rover/Aston-Martin alliance and the sharing of showrooms wherever possible, but with all that British luxury Ford really needs to question the need for Lincoln, another dying brand.

    Ford had gotten itself into the same situation as GM, too big, too many model lines to cover and not enough money to do it.

    M
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    Good post, Merc1.

    Agree pretty much with your thoughts on Jaguar. I do worry whether any level of investment will bring it back, but tend to agree the tradition and fundamentals are there for someone with the money to spend.

    Also agree on Ford/Volvo. Selling Volvo now would just about kill Ford. Ford has a chance to make the Volvo alliance the standard for these sort of mergers. It needs to get rid of the distractions from Jag/Rover/Aston and concentrate on its bread and butter.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I am in agreement with most of what you and Logic say. The high end auto market would be the better with a strong Jaguar. Jaguar fills a unique niche, offering interiors and styling that reflect a British heritage at a price far below Rolls, Bentley and A-M.

    IMO the Jaguar name still evokes a very positive image. With the proper investment and promotion it could revive to be a force in the premium car field.

    Hyundai has the money to do the job. I hope Hyundai has (or will hire) people who understand what the Jaguar name represents. It would be sad if Hyundai took the Jaguar name and ran off on a tangent that spoiled the brand image.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    about the future direction of Jaguar this week at:

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Keep me up to date all. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks.

    The way I see it all the components to "fix" Jaguar are there except for that state of the art, but inexpensive rwd platform needed to underpin the X,S and F-Types. The new I6 from Volvo surely can be re-worked to get another 40hp and the AJ V8 can be shipped out to any number of engine specialist Ford does business with to get it into the 360hp+ neighborhood with various MB, BMW and Lexus V8s.

    Imagine a new true-rwd X-Type with a real honest to goodness I6! Ditto for a F-Type roadster. Jaguar would all of sudden be back in business in a big way, IMO.

    M
  • wolverine26wolverine26 Member Posts: 6
    Recently Ford announced that they don't have plans to sell Jaguar or Land Rover, they said that this rumor never were more than that, a rumor.

    Here is the full thing, found this on a Canadian car site:

    A report from the Sunday Times Newspaper in London suggested that Ford Motor Company was planning to divest itself of Land Rover and Jaguar divisions in the UK as a part of its shake-up of British brands.

    According to the Sunday Times, the company planned to package the two
    brands together and sell a majority stake to a financial investor. The decision was reportedly led by senior management at the company, headed by Bill Ford. The possibility was also mentioned of retaining Jaguar and focusing on exclusive luxury sports cars and limited production.

    The Times reported that Bill Ford had sent a memo indicating that adviser Kenneth Leet would look into strategic options for the company. Leet's background in mergers and acquisitions led some to believe that disposal would be a more likely course of action.

    Replying to the news, Ford announced recently that it has no plans to sell their stake in Jaguar and Land rover and that the rumors were unfounded. Ford has owned Jaguar since 1989 and is presently considering all options for the brand.
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    Wouldn't an "X-type" that was nothing more than an Elantra underneath be just as bad as one based on a Mondeo? Great article, shame about both the F-Type and Continental concepts. I would've really loved a modern classic Continental. Of course the guys at Ford were wimps and we didn't get either.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The Asian companies are better than European or American companies at making cars on the same platform appear very different.

    Look at what Lexus has done using Toyota platforms. Lexus customers do not have the impression they are buying an 'fancy Toyota': many have no idea Lexus cars share anything with Toyota. Acura and Infiniti have been able to do the same using basic Honda and Nissan platforms.

    Upline (e.g. Lexus) cars may cost 15% more to build but sell for 40% more. Plataform sharing is a very profitable deal.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I think it's a good idea for Ford to sell it rather than let it rot like they have. I've always liked the Jaguar brand even though the ones I'd like to own have been priced out of my league. Like you said the wimps at Ford, didn't build those nice concepts. I think Hyundai, can improve the brand because of the money they have. However if they start building Jags in Korea, they will destroy that Old English feel that many folks love about Jaguar. If I was rich enough I'd own me a XJR "Super ?" -The new one that has those chrome like fenders behind the front wheel-well ;) Man that vehicle looks very cool. I also love those wood tabels and dual headrest TV's in the back. :blush:

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Jaguar is a brand without an identity and with a fast-fading personality. I always felt their downfall was switching from a diverse model line to building land yachts only and abandoning sports cars and sports sedans...so 1975 on up was the slow decline of this once great company. Like Rolls, it's taking them a long time to die but unlike Rolls, we don't see a good match for a rescuer at the moment. Ford saved them from circling the drain for a decade or so, but here they are again, facing doom. They are very nice cars in a harmless kind of way but they don't seem to offer an excitement anymore. Whatever they are trying to do, Lexus and BMW are doing it so much better.

    And worse yet, persistent issues with quality control and dealer service are tightening the noose around Jaguar and Land Rover. 2006 is a viciously competitive market and "good enough" isn't good enough anymore IMO. The marketplace in America is very "mature" (aka crowded)and mistakes cost more and hurt more than ever before.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    If Jaguar dies someday, it will be a passing of one of the great car company's IMHO. It's to bad the XJR, for example couldn't be a more affordable car. it's just not worth the prices they are asking. If they were a $40-70K car new, then they might have a better chance at survival. I agree BMW, Lexus offer more car for your dollar, however I have always liked that British design. :shades: Hopefully Hyundai, can save them from extinction. Maybe they can make it work by giving us cheaper Jaguar's without sacrificing quality and English touch :)

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    ...I'd say Rolls-Royce is already dead and is going to need a closed casket funeral. Funny how these grotesqueries still sell. I thought the Silver Seraph was a much nicer looking car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 54,975
    Ostentatious is "in" right now. Rolls is riding that wave for all it's worth. Jag might do better if it was a little less restrained.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I still like Rolls and find them attractive in a old fashion kind of a way. ;) However I do prefer the Bentley over it. They also our a little more modern, and give the customer that I made it to the big time. :) I'd like to experience that feeling for the rest of my days. :blush:

    Rocky
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Look at what Lexus has done using Toyota platforms. Lexus customers do not have the impression they are buying an 'fancy Toyota': many have no idea Lexus cars share anything with Toyota. Acura and Infiniti have been able to do the same using basic Honda and Nissan platforms.

    Gotta disagree there, Toyota/Lexus buyers might not know this, but everyone else does. The ES350 is often called a fancy Camry. Nissan and Honda in particular are not too skilled when it comes to sharing platforms while producing a product that differs greatly from its platform mate. At Honda everything is based on the Accord platorm and that includes Acura which is now being pressed into irrelevancy because of the limitations of fwd in a rwd dominated sports sedan market and the use of V6s accross the board. I agree when you build a sedan and then turn around and build a cross over or a suv on the same platform they're pretty good at this, but when it comes to cars and making them different, beyond the styling in some cases, Honda and Toyota's practices are obvious.

    M
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    From the Autoextremist today.

    "Get ready to be disappointed, Jaguar fans: rumors coming out of Dearborn...the Hyundai conglomerate is acquiring Jaguar and perhaps Land Rover... Kia, part of Hyundai, is said to be the new home for the Jaguar brand."

    Read more: http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Hyundai will live to regret this, I'm afraid. Did you see that recent Forbes article on the Top Ten WORST luxury cars?----Jaguar and LR scored heavily. This is pretty awful publicity and read by the very audience who buys these vehicles. Ouch!
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Toyota/Lexus buyers might not know this, but everyone else does.

    True, but what matters to Toyota is the profit they make from Lexus buyers to whom shared platforms are a non-issue. Most Lexus owners won't believe you if you explain how much Toyota and Lexus cars have in common.

    People who buy Eruopean and American brands seem to be a lot more particular about platform sharing. I am not sure why that is.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    The merger doesn't seem like a fit to me either. Companies make some strange deals when they are sitting on a big pile of cash.

    Jag seems to have greatly improved quality the last 3 years, but poor old LR is dead last by most measurements.

    Also: if Hyundai does buy Jaguar/LR, why ever would they turn the companies over to the Kia division?!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I dunno what the hell they are doing. I felt the same way when BMW went for Rover and lived to regret that one big-time. Then they wised up and created new products instead.

    Jaguar is a dead horse IMO. Rover, being a specialty vehicle of sorts, might have a better chance as a charm on some big corporations bracelet....like Hummer perhas, or Bentley....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Most Lexus owners won't believe you if you explain how much Toyota and Lexus cars have in common.

    Yeah that is the product of synthetic branding gone wild. Lexus tends to cater to the most non-enthusiast buyers around, IMO.

    People who buy Eruopean and American brands seem to be a lot more particular about platform sharing. I am not sure why that is.

    IMO, more enthusiasts follow European and American brands to a degree, especially the Europeans ones.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Jaguar is more or less finished if this thing with Hyundai happens. I doubt if anyone at any Korean brand understands what a Jaguar is about and they'll pimp the brand into oblivion, another "Saab" if you will.

    The only way for such a union to work is for Hyundai to just stand back and let Jaguar do their thing within a (at first) generous budget. If they don't turn themselves around by a certain date or by a the time they use up a certain amount of Hyundai's money then the parent can step in, not before.

    M
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAMember Posts: 15,261
    That's probably the best approach. Give 'em the money and a chance to create something without interference. The flip side is that we'll end up with Jag-dais or XKia-Es.

    Heck, if nothing else, Ford kept the marque alive this long. If not for Ford, Jaguar would've died around 1990. Hyundai couldn't possibly do a worse job than British-Leyland.
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    I agree with you and Lemko: Hyundai should give Jag the money and time to develop an exciting model range that has a connection to the Jaguar brand image of the 1950 to 1975 period.

    IMO the right line starts with an F-Type that is clearly a successor to the XK-E. Start with a roadster and add a 2+2 fairly soon.

    Sedans: one in the mold of the current S should be part of the line along with the XJ. Promote the British heritage, the 'Bentley at the right price' theme, rather than trying to be another Audi or MB.

    The new XK cars are really good. Having a line of big GT cars fits with the rest of the line very well.

    Smaller cars: Hyundai should let Jag pull out all the stops and designs a 100% right competitor to the BMW 3 series. A great driving experience combined with traditional Brit interior and Jag styling cues would be a huge hit. Offer a 2 door, convertible and a 4 door.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    I agree with lemko and scott, both are on to something. I do thing a Jaguar XJR like 3 series would be smoking HOTT !!!! Imgine if Jaguar, could keep the price down to around $45K without huge cost cutting ;)

    maybe someday.... :blush:

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I just don't see Hyundai giving Jaguar a furnace to burn more money in. They will want control and direction; obviously Jaguar doesn't know how to turn things around or they would have done so in the last ten years. Look at how well Cadillac has done in ten years (and still has further to go by the way). Jaguar has been standing still IMO. Last Jag I drove was about two years ago XK8 and it was remarkably unexciting. It smelled nice and all, and had a smooth ride, but really so do cars at half the price.

    Still I like you guys' idea of producing a Jaguar that drove like a BMW 3 series and cost the same. That could be their only hope---and yet, what a formidable competitor they'd have to fight! Could Hyundai pull that off?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Mr. Shiftright,

    I know you are the type of guy that doesn't look beyond what you can see pal. I am quite the opposite. I go out on a limb and hope and many times get slapped right back. However I still find it fun to be such a optomistic person.

    Neways I like I have said in the past like Jaguar alot and if Hyundai can bring the prices down and still make nice cars like they are doing with their 2 brands, then hell Im all for it. I'm not anti-South Korean or anything. South Korea, is a very strong upcoming democracy which very well could save peace someday if the North Koreans see South Korea's wealth and prosperity and do over throw "Kim Jung Menatally Ill" :D

    Hyundai, I must admit has impressed me. OTOH I'm still not impressed with kia, but of course their cars would never be something I'd buy. ;) Jaguar is something I very much would love to own (especially a XJR) :shades:

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I'm not pessimistic I don't think, but I try to keep a finger on the pulse of history, especially past automotive history, and really, can you name any brand of car that was morose and near death that was saved by a buy-out and became prosperous and dominant in their old market?

    I can't but if I do I'll post that.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Look at the whole GM and Chrysler line-ups for reference. They were all about dead at one time according to our media. ;) I know this isn't related to the buy-out issue you are speaking of. However you are correct in what you are saying. ;)

    Good post Shifty. :)

    Rocky
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Good point but domestics are still losing market share year by year by year, and you know, you can become just so small before economies of scale start to kill you for certain.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganMember Posts: 14,014
    Yep, you are very correct. All I can do is keep my fingers crossed that at least one of em' survives. If both survive (GM & FORD) the better.

    Rocky
  • scott1256scott1256 Member Posts: 531
    Lincoln was in receivership in 1922 when Henry Ford bought it from Henry M. Leland. Leland also founded Cadillac in 1903 with what was left of Henry Ford's first car company that went under.

    Of course, nothing is forever - but Lincoln has had a really profitable 80+ year run. They were very strong players in the luxury class for 50 or 60 of those years.

    Henry M. Leland turned 21 in February of 1864. His first presidential vote was for a man he admired all his life, Abraham Lincoln. He named the car line in honor of the great president.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    On the link you have, not sure where the Kia idea came from?

    Blommberg has an informative article stating Hyundai is concentrating on its own operation before any acquisition talks:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a6Ik95y2Pk24&refer=news

    We'll see. The auto industry changes so fast, we'd never know what tomorrow brings...
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Hmmm, one could say that Nissan fits the bill. I'd also nominate Mini.

    As for Jaguar and the crooked H, the best way to make that union work is to have Hyundai handle the platform and drivetrain engineering (the invisibe stuff) and have Jaguar do the interior and exterior styling and suspension tuning (the visible stuff).
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    The best feature of the current Jaguar XK and XJ by far are their all aluminum platforms.

    The engines lack a little compared to Benz and BMW, but not much. The Trannies are pretty darn good.

    The biggest complaint about the XJ is that Jaguar was too mindful of its tradition and did not keep up with the times.

    Many have complained the XK lacks a certain level of excitement. (I personally think it is a beautiful car)

    Long and short, if Hyundai followed your advise, it risks losing the best thing Jaguar has going for it and keeping up where Jaguar is stumbling.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    yeah, Nissan does fit the bill actually---hadn't thought of that. What's his name from Renault did a great job with Nissan.

    MINI? Nah, the new MINI really has nothing to do with the old MINI. It's an entirely new car totally disconnected from origins. Oddly enough though, it too will have some French Connection come 2007 (new 1.6 liter engine).

    Maybe Renault should buy Jaguar? It's a powerhouse company, still a major force in racing, and distributes exciting product throughout the world. After all, many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, Renault was a very prestigious marque internationally.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    You may have something there.

    Renault/Nissan do not have top prestige cars.

    Infinity could fill in with entry level and luxury sport. Jaguar could dump the X Series. Maybe keep the S. Personally, I would drop it, though.

    Then let Jaguar concentrate on improving design, updating engines, etc.

    There would be a lot less chance of culture shock between Jaguar and new ownership.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Ford invested billions into Jaguar (5 if I recall), then somehow mis-managed the brand (for the most part) to the point billions and billions are lost each year. At this point, there aren't a lot of parties interested in taking on a risk brand like Jaguar, and the baggage that comes with it. I believe Hyundai has conducted its due diligence on Jag and deemed the company was not fit to make such an acquisition. Good for them - the Korean automaker has improved at such an amazing rate, and is destined for great things to come. I take it for Hyundai, after various studies and analysis, the company determined this probably will not benefit them and does not fit into its long-term goals.

    The truth of the matter is, Ford has been shopping, but there just aren't a lot of interested parties looking to take on Jag alone (GAZ pulled out, now Hyundai has too, maybe now a private investor from China may be the front-runner??). If anything, the possible sale would be made as a packaged deal, with other brands (Land Rover, Volvo, Aston Martin) involved to sweeten the pot.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    then somehow mis-managed the brand (for the most part) to the point billions and billions are lost each year.

    Did Ford mismanage, or did they buy something that no one could save?

    Jaguars are technically better than they have ever been. Making an X was probably an error. The S got good press and sold well for a while. The XK and XJ are as technically good as ever.

    Finally, where do you get that Hyundai has dropped out? Rumors are Hyundai is looking. I've seen nothing about a yea or nea from either party.
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