Luxury Lounge

tagman

Man, I have no concern for Toyota. I only mention that they also see the potential for harm

It's the many innocent American victims that I am concerned with.

TM

VOR45

"Timing is everything. Now is not the time to allow the Big 3 to go under. Instead, oversee their revised business models. If it doesn't work, then so be it. But, if it does... there you go. "

How exactly would you know "it doesn't work" then if not for the company failing on cash flow, like they are doing now? Car sales being dependent on the overall health of the economy, how exactly would "doesn't work" manifest itself when the economy is going well? In good times, companies can make money on all sorts of things. In fact, when GM was selling SUV's like hot cakes in 1998, the union struck and cost the company $4 billion. Was that a manifestation of "doesn't work"? The company managed to chug along thanks money coming in from GMAC credit card and mortgage financing. Do you think in your model some government official would have or should have stepped in to shut down the company and fire the UAW as a matter of governmetn fiat?

"I don't think we need to kill the patient to kill the disease. It makes more sense to get the patient healthy first, and then be in a better position to fight the disease head on"

Bankruptcy Court Protection under Chapter-11 filing is not killing the patient. It's a therapy for killing cancer cells that ail the patient. Constant blood transfusion is not the answer when the gaping hole in the body is not patched up first. The huge interest payment on corporate junk bonds and the labor liability are the two bodily wounds that are bleeding the Detroit-3 dry. In order to save them, we have to patch up the wounds and stop the bleeding first. Keep pumping blood transfusion is not going to save the patient, the only tangible result would be exhausting the blood bank, and leaving not just these patients but also many other patients dead.

VOR45

Then don't hurt Americans with this bailout nonsensical policy to keep Toyota's competitions impotent. Toyota officials make noises based on self-interest. Whichever of the Detroit-3 go through the Chapter-11 process first will be by far the strongest domestic car company.

tagman

Your posts are terrific... and I agree with much of your perspective. However, we do not agree as to the timing. The Big 3 have been full-steam ahead on a dead end road for quite some time. Ford, however, has made slight progress. GM's Chevy Volt is questionable progress at best.

They don't need a financial crisis as a catalyst for failure. They are perfectly capable of failing on their own, and have been heading in that direction for years.

The country doesn't need the extra unemployment and economic shockwave that would absolutely result from their collapse. While some might disagree, it's not even worth the risk.

And, any suggestion that they can continue on their collision course perpetually in a good economy doesn't hold water. We see that they were already committing suicide.

That's why I say keep 'em floating until the economy improves. Then let 'em sink or swim... and the side effects from their failure wouldn't be as devastating to a healthier overall economy, which would be more capable of absorbing some of the fallout. And, of course, there's always the chance for their success... and the entire restructuring process would be overseen as well.

This approach essentially changes the timing, and allows the potential for restructuring and success with less risk to badly-timed economic calamity. And the door would still be open to bankruptcy if they failed to implement a new successful business model. So that option would remain.

TM

clembo

I am a Libertarian by nature which normally would mean that I would resist government intervention and let things take their course. But I really believe this is different. The residual effects of the Big 3 collapsing would cause a huge problem for many citizens in our country. The tab that government would have to pick up with unemployment, healthcare costs and others would be high.

I would like to see real changes tied to this loan program - examples would be union concessions, restructuring the P&Ls with more R&D spend and less G&A, and true pay for performance for anyone above middle management. And a payback period for the loans that would require them to be paid in full or file Chapt 11, a 36 month cycle would be fine with me. If they couldn't institute reforms by then, they deserve to go under.

tagman

Bullseye.

TM

waygrabow

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oKWxWOEilyQ/SUALWVrWmoI/AAAAAAAAAOI/huhzcE_df-A/s1600-- h/bigthree.jpg

tagman

LOL... that's funny.

Yet, in defense of the Big 3, the world does actually buy their products in very large numbers. But... the companies have pathetic business models that don't turn a profit.

There are some real winners from GM... the latest Chevrolet Corvette is an awesome vehicle. The latest Silverado (and GMC counterpart) is terrific. The Escalade is a winner without a doubt... for those that like that sort of thing.

History has shown that Americans do like one vehicle above all others... the Ford F-150. This will change due to the recent gas situation, but the record is very long and consistent with regards to this truck from Ford. Also the Mustang is an icon, and the latest rendition should be even better. Ford has a good hybrid offering as well.

Chrysler's 300 is one of the best-looking sedans and is a good value.

Many Americans like to bash our own domestic auto industry, and for good reason. But, this current situation isn't about evaluating their products. It's about the current financial situation and how to avoid a calamity, and it's about forging ahead with a concrete plan that will address the concerns of the past and put the Big 3 on the right path.

BTW, good post. Thanks for that good laugh.

TM

cyclone4

Cyclone, it's often repeated that people wouldn't buy car from bankrupt car companies; repetition doesn't make it true. People fly bankrupt airlines; that's literally putting their lives in the hands of bankrupt companies.

VOR45, first of all I need to tell you that you are a terrific debater.

I have been out and about the past couple days and I'm trying to catch up on the many well thought of posts here and also keep on top of my New England Patriots and Boston Red Sox happenings . I am not going to argue about all the points you make because I agree with most of them. However, the major disagreement is that you are pro-Chapter 11 and I am not at THIS TIME. As they say in trading, "timing is everything". I think that Tag also pointed this out, but if we let the Big 3 go bankrupt now, I believe that would would result in "Armageddon" for our economy. I do not think that the economy could take a blow like this right now as millions more jobs would be lost. That would be catastrophic in my opinion.

pat

are delighted to announce that they have been united with their predecessors and graciously invite everyone to the party they are throwing here: clembo, "Digital Cameras" #16, 14 Dec 2008 5:23 am.

They look forward to you joining them! :shades:

m4d_cow

"I didn't cause this financial disaster, and millions of others like me don't deserve to be victims. "
"A bunch of those government officials and Wall Street bastards deserve to go to jail for what they've done. "

Tag, actually I understand. The WallStreet bailout I actually opposed, though as always I can understand why the government bailed them out. I agree with you and vote for the Wallstreet execs responsible for this mess to get canned for life. I stand by my beliefs of "Natural selection, survival of the fittest", but it doesnt apply in the financial crisis, there's just too much dirt around. If only Obama got the guts, he'll send the execs to jail in no time.
As for the D2 case, I'm faced with a dilemma. One side of my brain says drop dead. They're not responsible for the crisis, true, however the same goes vice versa, the crisis is NOT responsible for the D2's condition now. This is where natural selection comes in, they no longer fit to survive. Plus bailing out means saving UAW, I wont support salvaging a crate of rotten apples, hell no. Please note that a huge part of the reason the bailout goes bust is because the UAW refused the new wage contract, those pigs. However, the other side of my brain realize that there will be negative effects, no matter how slight, at this point it will still be significant enough to harm our economy even further.

There is one other way imo. The government gives not a bailout but instead buy and take over the D2. Pretty much current GM and Chrysler are worth about the same as their bailout request. Then we can force new contract with lesser pay for UAW. Take it or leave it. If the government takes this path, they have my support. I've said this and I will say it again: I will not support helping D3 under its current management. Not only Wagoner, the whole management board must go. I also think they shouldve done the same with Wallstreet.

rockshocka1

this forum when it goes dry for a while. Where did everyone go? Broke the 3 week barrier waiting for the S5. It's on the ship, but they won't set sail 'till she's full. Fill it already! In the meantime, Audi sent me a 'gift.' It could be the sole of a right foot racer shoe, or maybe an odor eater? Sound strange to you? Why couldn't they send a hat, or a matching left foot pad?

anthonyp

My doesn`t time fly In my case time seemed to slow down, the closer the day came....Your new car -to be- is one of the most attractive.....Tony

rockshocka1

Tony, holiday time will be hectic, so I probably will be at my worst 2 January, unless it arrives sooner. Have lots to keep me busy. Question though, did you order your 8 or was it another car? I can understand waiting for the SWB 8 as I've never seen one on the lot.

d5a

:lemon: Purchased a new 2008 Mercedes R class on Oct 21'st of this year. The day after i bought the car i noticed a ding in the front fender and many scratches all over the car. Called the dealer who informed me that they would take care of it at the time I came in for its 1,000 mile service. This being a mercedes I trusted them and figured all would be taken care of. As the days went on I noticed the hood had dents in it. As I was walking up to the car from the front I noticed dents all over the hood of the car. At this point I called the dealer, they said again they would take care of it at time of service. I told them I would be bringing it in asap not waiting for service. They agreed and the date was set. Dropped the car off on day of service and figured they would get a dent repair guy to look at it. that afternoon I get a call from the sales manager now stating that they see no dents what so ever. I jumped in the car drove to the dealership and pointed out all the defects. Sales manager told me it was all orange peal. BULL! So any ways he then changed his tone and said they will fix everything. I left and a day went past and nothing so on the second day I called to ask what was happening to my car. They informed me that they had found an issue with the sunroof and a part was missing that was on back order. We are talking a new mercedes here with only a few hundred miles and I had never even used the sunroof due to cold weather at this point. So long story short mercedes dealer had my new car for two weeks waiting on a part for the sun roof. At this point I had faith that they during this time were fixing all the dents and scratches on the car. Finally I got a call after two weeks saying my car could be picked up. Went to get it only to find nothing had been done to any of the dents or scratches and they had damaged the hood of the car. I now have a dent sticking out of the hood. Some way they have pulled the metal out of the hood as if someone had closed the hood on the car and left something under it. Needless to say I was pissed. The cars not even a month old. At this point the service manager said they were sorry and called in the general manager who went on to say how its not the dealer fault and they see no damage to the car and that any damage on the car has been due to my fault. I informed him that we had emails to the sales man stating the issues she then went on to say its still not there fault. I left, came home called the ower of the dealership who offered a meeting with me. Drove back up a fourth time to meet with him only to have him look at the car and say he would be in touch in a few days. Few days went past and nothing. I repeated called never to get a call back. I then contacted MBUSA who informed me that it had to be delt with at a dealer level. Can you believe this? So I emailed everyone I could at MBUSA Corporate, Daimler Corporate and the dealership stating the issues and they way I have been treated. At that point I did get a call back from Corp (MBUSA) stating they would open a case file to have the car bought back. I felt relieved. This was three weeks ago. During that time MBUSA has told me we need to meet with the east coast regional manager. So I set up a meeting with him. During my time waiting for the meeting day to come I informed him that our gaol is to have mb buy the car back or replace it with a new car. I also informed him that I had to spent 200 to have a few dents takin out already and that the hood now has to be fully repainted at the tune of 850 dollars and there is still two other hail dents that need to be fixed for another 200 dollars. So I'm looking at 1200 out of pocket on body work on a new car. And the dealer saw nothing? Regional manager called today to inform me that they dont see reason for a meeting and that the dealer now makes the call on replacement cars. I'm getting the run around!!!!!!!!!!! I have no clue now what to do. They are trying to wear me down so that I go away. MBUSA has been no help at all. I now have a 60,000 mercedes with hail damage which they deny but I found out it sat on the lot during two hail storms over the summer and I also have a car that has been damaged by the dealer costing me to have to get the hood repainted on a new car meaning it wont have the facotroy paint on it and it may never match. On top of that resale will take a nose dive due to the painted hood making it look as if he may have been in an accident at some point. Any ideas on how I can get a replacement car or get mercedes to buy this car back from me? I will never buy another mercedes again. I have always had BMW's which I loved but we needed a bigger car then what BMW had to offer and I regret it 100% Any advise would be great. :sick:

Thanks!

tagman

I'm looking forward to the pics and your comments on your S5. What a terrific car.

TM

rockshocka1

I'll take plenty of pics, just have to master the posting method. It's the same exterior I tried to post earlier (with your help!). But not red interior, I went with the gray. But, this will be my first German car & I will post the good & bad(no fanboy of any make).

anthonyp

I ordered it, and as I said earlier, you need to keep a sharp lookout for the car, as it could come in a week or so early.......My car has been a fine one, with only one thing that needed work ( the screen that pops up)....Short model was fine for me, and it looks about the size of a bmw 5....Tony

anthonyp

Sorry for your problems......First I would say not to take delivery without checking car thoroughly, as that it your best shot of getting quick service....Second I would speak to an attorney or someone who would know what your rights are......I have never had any luck trying to have a dealer do what is right....and that is assuming the description is the way you describe it.....there are two sides to a dispute....Again I am sorry for your experience, and wish you luck...An attorney costs something, so before getting in any deeper, find that out , then determine purely from a dollar perspective ...the proper course to take....As I have said `sometimes the first loss is the best loss` Tony

tagman

Sounds horrible. What dealership are you talking about?

TM

d5a

Valley Motors In Maryland

kgary

I am a little confused by your recent post and your earlier post from October. In your October post you wrote:

Yes got them down to 36,200 then add tax and tags. its an 08, new last one. Black on Black (not what i would have picked but hey) awd, R350 gas with some options. pk1, heated seats, sunroof, ipod and a few other things.

In your recent post you wrote:

I now have a 60,000 mercedes

What was the $24,000 discount for? In your recent post you state that you noticed that the vehicle was dinged and scratched as soon as you got home from the dealer. I can't help but wonder how you missed the damage at the time you picked up the vehicle and that perhaps you were able to get a $24,000 discount because of this damage.

m4d_cow

Sorry to hear your situation, bud. At this point the only thing you can do is seek legal advice imo. As indicated by Tony this will cost, but if the problem is serious and you're backed by your state's lemon law you have a good chance at getting a replacement or your money back.

When taking delivery it was practically your last chance to reject the car, thorough inspection should've been done by then. However I wont ask any further as eyesight is a factor here as well (I'm not trying to call you blind or anything, btw )
Be careful when anyone (be it Ford, Mercedes, Lexus or even Ferrari) say they will fix a damage in the 1000 mile service. You should always demand immediate service and, if possible, document your complaints, take pictures of the damage. Time is very essential in such case. If impossible you should at least demand an official document, letter of agreement or something like that you can keep as evidence. If you have no legal documents from MB, this can be troublesome for you in taking legal actions.

Here's what I know, in many states if a car has been exposed to weather anomalies like hail storms, its mandatory for the manufacturer and/or dealer to put the car under "Salvage" title. Depending on state laws it is still possible to sell the car as new, however the salvage title should be on the documents. If no such document is present then it'll be easy to file a lawsuit. However, once again I must remind you this varies by state. Check your state law for more infos.

An old friend of mine bought a new Nissan Maxima in 2003, and the car he bought had been previously damaged from a hailstorm that hit the factory. Nissan provided the salvage title documents but dealer sold the car as new and clean. Filed a lawsuit against the dealer and he received a replacement unit in 3 weeks.

Goodluck.

m4d_cow

Ah, VOR45, we appear to share the same thought about the motives behind Toyota's actions supporting bailout. You've pretty much written everything I want to write about it To make it simpler, imagine an all new GM. Clean sheet, restructured, offering a redesigned Malibu with better quality and better price (no more hidden production costs like now). Then they show up face-to-face against Camry, currently falling apart in quality, priced higher, etc. It wont take long for Malibu to steal Camry's crown. This will become nightmare for Toyota.
This has happened before, does anyone recall Toyota's sudden sales drop when the revived Nissan dropped the "2002 Altima bomb" on them? It handily took a whole chuck out of Camry and Accord's sales.

Check this out: GM decided to build the upcoming Cruze in a "new" plant in Shenyang industrial area, China. I have no online source, it's just something I watched in the news. All this BS talk about keeping Americans in jobs hence the need for aid, while at the same time they remove a plant to China to cut production costs. I wonder, how is that relevant to keeping employees from getting laid off????
GM board of execs definitely have a hidden agenda behind this bailout proposal. Though I must ask how stupid can they be doing this the same time they still expect the bailout proposal to get accepted? Or perhaps GM is pulling a threat on congress, "give us money or we produce somewhere else"? To me it only makes my point even more obvious, GM has neither plan to restructure nor to avoid BK.
Still think GM deserve a bailout? Comments, anyone?

cdnpinhead

Sorry to hear of all your misfortune.

I'll be interested in hearing if this car had a $20K+ discount on it, which would go a long way toward explaining some of this.

By the way, paragraphs are good things.

tayl0rd

You can't think of a good-looking SUV?

Try Range Rover.

...

:surprise:

Sorry. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. :sick:

d5a

Thanks everyone for the advise. Yea the r class does sticker for 57,000 mercedes had a marketing promo of 12,500 off then the dealer had money back also so it was bought why under sticker. That said its still expensive. I figured mercedes would stand behind there products and it was the last of an 08 model year. Sorry for the lack of paragraphs. Was on a rampage and just typed away hope all understand. IT is what is it. They did damage the car while in the shop so that issue still stands. I had the hail damaged repairs but they damaged the hood while it was being serviced so I feel they need to step up to that issue.

tagman

You can't think of a good-looking SUV?

Try Range Rover.

Sorry. I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Range Rover...Range Rover...Range Rover...Range Rover...Range Rover.

There ya' go, Derrick... now you should have puked your guts out. LOL

TM

circlew

Wait...this will finish him off!



Regards,
OW

lexusguy

According to Edmunds, the NSX program has been eliminated. Can't say I'm really surprised, it was going to cost double what the GT-R costs and I seriously doubt Honda could make it any faster.

tagman

As Chrysler has announced that they will shut down every one of their 30 auto manufacturing plants for at least one month starting the end of this week.

Dum dee dum dum... :sick:

Is the beginning of what will be even worse.. or the end of the what has been the worst?

TM

tagman

According to Edmunds, the NSX program has been eliminated.

No loss, IMO. They have many programs. They can call them anything they want. They will use some of the technological and performance gains they have acquired from the "NSX program" and transplant it to one or more of their other projects... like their electric supercar, for example.

And, who knows?... maybe some day one of these projects will develop to the point that a simple executive decision will name it the NSX all over again.

TM

rockshocka1

The trickle down used to be Honda racing to Prelude to others? Honda fans have been lamenting the loss of the Legend nameplate for years. Yet they have not produced a new car worthy of that moniker IMO. Let the NSX name go unless they make another supercar killer. Don't put it on some hybrid abomination.

jimbres

Wow! That sure is...um...boxy!

Yessirree! If boxy floats your boat, then this is what you've been waiting for.

circlew

Personally, I'd take this over that.



I like to drive not float!

Regards,
OW

jimbres

That's not boxy. That's just plain weird. It makes me think of a 1950s sci-fi movie in which atomic bomb tests produce a race of giant, mutant cockroaches.

If you gave me the money to buy one of these things, I'd spend it on a 3-series coupe or sedan configured according to God's will - with RWD & a stick. There'd be a lot of money left over, & I'd spend that fighting the recession in all sorts of vaguely immoral ways.

m4d_cow

Hmm, the RRSport is actually pretty attractive looking in that color. The Range Rover HSE on the other hand needs that greyish green paint, looks great.

m4d_cow

Is the beginning of what will be even worse.. or the end of the what has been the worst?

I believe it's neither. Its the beginning of the end of what's been the worst.

PS: I'm serious.

tayl0rd

At least you had a sense of humor about it!

Call me crazy, but I really like the Touareg! A black one w/ teak interior and a V8, please!

m4d_cow

What's so crazy about liking Touareg? The only 2 downsides I can think of are bland looks (pre-refresh) and the laughing stock fuel mileage. The interior is a gem that looks and feels like something worth thousands more, off-road capability is amazing, and its comfy as well.

If you say something like "I really like the Aztec", now that needs professional help. :P

tagman

Crazy here, too. I also like the Toureg.

TM

tayl0rd

You're right about the fuel mileage. It's atrocious. The looks definitely aren't flashy, but not offensive either. Maybe that's why I like it. (Uh oh! I'm starting to sound like a Honda person!) The looks are inline with typical VW. I like the tight seams and well aligned body. The interior is just fantastic! Another note on that in a sec...

I don't like SUVs, but if I had to get one, the Touareg (V8) would be #1 on an extremely short list. The other plus for me is, as you mentioned, it's actually offroad capable and has a hefty tow capacity to boot (7600 pounds; significantly more w/ proper chassis bracing (747 jumbo jet, anyone?)) I'd love to have that V10 TDI, but the price of entry on one of those is heart-clutching!! :surprise:

Now back to that interior. Don't laugh, but have a good look at the interior of the new Kia Borrego and tell me if it doesn't seem oddly familiar.

lexusguy

Call me crazy, but I really like the Touareg! A black one w/ teak interior and a V8, please!

Ugh, no thanks. I think I'd rather walk than drive that 5,300lb. pork machine. The Q5 is about the only SUV I would even consider driving myself. I'm not going off road, so keep your thousand pound differentials off, please.

laurasdada

Hi! My company is considering sending me to DC to appear in front of Congress to ask for some bail-out money. Can you recommend the perfect brand of private jet and then which companies have the best stretch-Hummer limos to get me there?

lexusguy

Can you recommend the perfect brand of private jet and then which companies have the best stretch-Hummer limos to get me there?

Show up in a Hondajet. Richard Shelby ought to get a kick out of that.

tagman

In addition... Make sure you are wearing a nice Brioni's suit and at a minimum, a pair of Tanino Crisci shoes. Please do remember to get that manicure before your appearance. A high-end watch, such as one from Girard-Perregaux, Vacheron Constantin, or TAG Heuer would look good on the wrist, and be sure to take notes with something on the order of a Montblanc Boheme Royal Pen.



TM

lexusguy

Actually, I think showing up in an Aston DBS wearing the matching watch and a tux would be better. Then demand that Chris Dodd bring you a Martini.

laurasdada

What a coincidence! You pretty much published my Christmas wish list! I know I'll get a Tag, tag. My EW will simply wrap my current Tag and regift it to me. For the 14th Xmas in a row! Or maybe this year she'll re-give me my IWC or Omega. Or Invicta, Timex, Seiko or LL Bean. Luckily, watches don't need garages...

Unless, of course, she sold my watches for downpayment money for her Porsche...

jlbl

my IWC…

Pardon me my curiosity…, which model?

Regards,
Jose

laurasdada

DaVinci SL (chronograph). I'm eyeing the Ingenieur AMG (Titanium) edition...