Luxury Lounge

circlew

All I know is, in the USA, anyone attempting to save money by buying an RX 450h over an RX 350 is making a big mistake.

Same story with most high-end hybrids and the 335d. You don't buy them to save money on energy costs.

Even some low-end hybrids will not make up the initial investment cost gap with gas savings:

Ford Motor Co. says it will charge a base price of $19,270 for its revamped Fusion midsize car and $27,270 for a hybrid gas-electric version.

Regards,
OW

tagman

Ford Motor Co. says it will charge a base price of $19,270 for its revamped Fusion midsize car and $27,270 for a hybrid gas-electric version.

I don't believe that the difference between the Ford Fusion and the Ford Fusion hybrid, comparably equipped, will be all that huge... although the Hybrid will get some features that are only available to the Hybrid... and I don't know their "value".

TM

hpowders

With the Toyota Prius and Camry hybrid, you get back the premium very quickly, in about one year.

On the other hand, anyone foolish enough to buy a Lexus GS 450h with its disappointing 23 mpg can wait 10 years until pay back! :surprise:

dewey

Charlie,

this was the very first Lexus I have ever test driven.
And I must say I can understand why you want to get a new RX450h.

Good Luck with your new purchase.

dewey

I'll bet lots of green that the 2010 Prius is very comfy and very cool.

I will put my kids back there. I will put some travel baggage behind the 2010 Prius.
And if the middle seat is comfy then heck may be I will get the Prius. The 2010 Prius does sound impressive. And the Prius is more green and at the same time it involves less green bills than a Lexus.

dewey

Howard,

You driving a Lexus HS and me driving a Lexus RX450h will cause nightmares for all those employed by BMW.

Years and years and years of all this tall German talk about hybrid drivetrains and what is the result? Nothing.

cyclone4

One gets around 23 mpg in the RX 450h and 19-20 mpg in the RX 350. There is not that much of a difference in mpg to justify the RX 400h's stiff premium.

You have an error here. The new RX450h will be getting about 28-29 mpg based on the new EPA guidelines from a year ago. The 23 mpg figure is close to what the RX400h gets. In very cold weather in particular, the difference in fuel efficiency between the RX400h and the RX450h is really huge because of the new technology (recirculates hot exhausts to warm up the engine just like the Prius).

I am by no means trying to state here that you will save money by going with the hybrid, but just trying to be accurate. Most people that buy hybrids do not do so because of economics, but they are doing it to help the environment and also just for the fun of driving a hybrid with its unique features. By the way, the price difference between the RX350 and the RX450 will be about $4-5K from what I have been told.

In any case, I am sure that dewey will make the wise decision for him and his wife whether he goes for the Prius or the RX450h. Also, there are many that obviously disagree with you guys that driving the RX450h is a "bland" experience.

lexusguy

On the other hand, anyone foolish enough to buy a Lexus GS 450h with its disappointing 23 mpg can wait 10 years until pay back!

They'll also be stuck driving a GS450h

ljflx

Charlie,

I'm well north of Atlantic City (about 90 miles) and I'm about 25 miles inland. I'm a weather and science buff so I keep track of weather events. We had just under 14" here and we've had about 35" for the season. Average is 28". In the great blizzard of 96 we had 36" here (just about 100" in total that winter) and in the the 2001 President's day storm (which is know as PDII as there was an earlier great President's day storm) we had 31" . In the blizzard of 2006 we had 26" here. So big snows are no stranger to this area. Temp headed for 5 degrees tonite and just last Friday it was 67. I'm ready for Spring.

Here's my Driveway after that PDII storm. It was that way on both sides as well as the back yard. in 96 it was even higher. When I drove out I had to peer around the windshield to see right and left and as I drove down the driveway (we have a 125' setback) I felt like I was on a bobsled run.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vb5uuo&s=5

hpowders

"You driving a Lexus.."

Dewey, I have already test-driven the Lexus GS 300, GS 430 and LS models. The older I get, the more receptive I am to a more comfortable drive. I wish Lexus would design a vehicle so someone like myself at 6'2" can get seated properly with adequate seat travel and not have my right leg uncomfortably hitting the console. I have driven 4 BMW's since 1993 and have always managed to get comfortably seated.

I am sure somewhere deep in the heart of Nagasaki, my name and complete history has been stored on Lexus' main computer hard drive, with all the other "undesirables". If Japan ever becomes fiercely nationalistic again and invades the USA and wins...I won't be driving anything! :surprise:

hpowders

Correct! Never has a vehicle received so many terrible reviews. Surprised Lexus hasn't canned the GS 450h.

hpowders

Well if I'm going to be wrong, I'm glad it's on the low mpg side! 28-29 mpg is excellent for a vehicle the size of the RX. Yes, I was looking at stats. for the RX 400h.

It doesn't matter what we say or suggest. Dewey has to get out there with the family and check out all the possibilities. I hope he has as much fun as I usually have, driving so many fine vehicles for "free"; on my list for this summer are: the BMW 135i Coupe and the Lexus HS 250h- two polar opposites!

Of course, I can hardly wait for Dewey's reviews of all the vehicles he checks out and his final verdict!

cyclone4

That's impressive Len!

I know that the greatest snow storm that the Boston area ever had was during February (don't remember the exact date) of 1969. I was training at Fort Jackson, SC at the time so I missed it. Brockton, MA (my home town) had about 4 feet with that monster storm with unbelievable drifts. Small homes were virtually buried.

tagman

I will put my kids back there. I will put some travel baggage behind the 2010 Prius.
And if the middle seat is comfy then heck may be I will get the Prius. The 2010 Prius does sound impressive. And the Prius is more green and at the same time it involves less green bills than a Lexus.

That's right, Dewey... Let's just take a look...


Plenty of room for your kids (and adults, too)...


Did you say luggage? No problem...


Gosh, that's plenty cool...


Don't cancel your order for your new Prius... unless you'd rather get yourself an SUV...

TM

clembo

There are some nice design elements incorporated in the new Prius. I do wonder why they set the driver info in the middle of the dashboard instead of in front of the driver? It looks as if Style won over Functionality.

jlbl

2009 is the 60th production anniversary of Citroën 2CV (presented in 1948 Paris Auto Show; produced from 1949 to 1990), one of the best economy (& ecology ) cars never made. She had to be able to carry on "two peasants with 220 lbs of farm goods — specifically: two big potato bags, or a medium-size barrel of wine — to market at 37 mph, in clogs and across muddy unpaved roads if necessary, with a gas consume of 78 mpg". "Most famously, it would be able to drive across a ploughed field without breaking the eggs it was carrying".

Wikipedia; sorry about other sources, no time to explore more at the moment

Can we call the 2CV the Prius of the epoque? :shades:

And here is some info on the GTbyCitroen, a concept car presented in 2008 Paris Auto Show and developed from the virtual model made for PlayStation 3 to concur with Gran Turismo 5 Prologue.



autobloggreen

GTbyCitroen photos

A virtual and a concept car by now, will it be a Citroen renaissance in Luxury/Sport car models? I wish it were so.

Regards,
Jose

NastleVV

This is the best comfort zone.

Joseph

circlew

Did you get a bucket loader to pile the snow that high? Unimaginable!

Regards,
OW

circlew

The 2CV was a work horse but the GT is fabulous! I always wonder why the concepts never make it to production. I assume the costs are too high so the bean counters devastate the design.

Too bad. This one is a winner!

Regards,
OW

tagman

The position of the non-nav information provided to the driver in the Prius is slightly right of the driver... although not totally centered. But it is definitely weird when first driving the car. When I rented the G2 Prius it took a while to get used to it. It's not as far off as the pic infers, and a typical navigation screen is further to the right, and generally lower... except for my 135i, which has the nav screen at the top of the dash... sweet!

Anyway, it's not as bad as it looks, because it is close to line-of-sight... but it is a flaw, IMO. I suppose if it was a genuine problem there would have been more negative feedback over the years. Honda hybrids (and non-hybrids) have better ergonomics... Might be time to consider the new Insight again... LOL.

TM

clembo

I agree that Honda does a better job ergonomically, has any major publication done a review yet of the new Insight vs Prius?

tagman

Comps so far are against G2, so we'll wait for head-to-head Insight vs. Prius G3.

BTW. not all Hondas have great ergonomics... but the Civic and Insight definitely do... and, IIRC... the terrific CR-V as well... which would make a killer hybrid vehicle, IMO.

TM

dewey

I like test driving but unlike some of you here I cant stand the idea of selling my car so soon. By the time I sell it this year my car will be between two and three years old.

I love the way my BMW 335i drives and to tell you the truth I was kind of relieved after my test drives to return back to my BMW.

BUT unfortunately it has not served its primary purpose too well which is to transport me with its snow tires from point a to point b through some snowfall. And during the four seasons to transport me with minimal reliability issues. Based on that alone my car gets graded an "F".

I always hated expensive Italian sports cars because they costed so much and were notorious for unreliability. With my BMW 335i I did not have to spend 6 digit figures in order to have the priviledge of owning such a piece of unreliable crap.

I guess you can call my car a humble man's Ferarri. If it cant commute then it's no beaut.

dewey

Great pictures and I actually saw the new 3G Prius at the Toronto Auto Show. It's not a bad looking car at all.

During the Show I sat in the Honda Insight and I was greatly disappointed. The cargo space is far smaller than the Prius and rear shoulder space is almost 12 percent less than the Prius. But most disappointing was the rear head space. I had to bend my neck in order not to hit the ceiling.

What amazes me is how my prorities have changed from buying a performance car to a hybrid. All of a sudden rear seated rump space becomes the prevailing priority over everything. :surprise:

dewey

Toyota Motor asks for government help. Even in these times, that headline comes as a shock.

Toyota Financial Services is in talks with Japan's state-run export bank to line up financing, it said Tuesday.

The business funds loans and leases on Toyota's cars -- something that's growing tougher by the day along with drivers' ability to repay debts. Toyota Financial says tricky U.S. credit markets prompted it to seek another source of funds.

Still, this is a timely reminder that Toyota's problems go beyond just convincing heavily-indebted Americans to buy cars. With used-car prices tumbling, the company's already had to write down the value of cars that are coming off lease. Higher provisions for credit losses, meanwhile, have also eaten up profits recently.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123607826557417881.html

dewey

Despite the fact that I may get a Prius I think CR is full of bunk when they refer to this hybrid vehicle as the most BANG for the BUCK.

The truth is a Honda Civic or a Fit offers far more bang for the buck.

I do agree with Edmunds on this issue:

Last week, Consumer Reports unveiled its 2009 best picks in its annual auto issue. For the first time, the organization added a “best new car value” category to recognize that consumers are looking for more than just reliability or a low price.

The value ranking takes into account the total cost of ownership over five years, weighing fuel costs, maintenance and repairs, insurance costs, depreciation, financing rates and taxes against the purchase price of the vehicle. Intellichoice, another car-buying information service, has offered a similar ranking for several years.

For 2009, Consumer Reports awarded the best value to the Toyota Prius Touring model.

A week later Edmunds.com, a rival vehicle-buying service and online publication, has issued a press release saying that Consumer Reports may be leading “lead cost-conscious shoppers astray” by naming a hybrid as a good value.

“Anyone truly concerned about their household expenses should ask some questions about any methodology that finds a premium hybrid vehicle to be an excellent value, especially when gas prices are so low,” Edmunds.com CEO Jeremy Anwyl is quoted in the release. “It makes sense that value is top of mind for many car buyers; for consumers seeking the absolute best new car value, the 2009 Honda Civic is the best choice, not the Prius.”

At a time when car sales are dropping to levels not seen in 30 years and most families are more concerned about job loss or foreclosure than a new car, it seems heavy handed to start quibbling over “value” rankings.

link title

hpowders

BMW's are best in warm weather climates like mine, Dewey.

I remember with dismay when living in NYC, struggling unsuccessfully to get some traction going up an icy inclined street in my first 325i, while being passed easily by front-drive Corollas and Civics. :mad:

tagman

The initial price (or premium) of the hybrid doesn't matter as much as some say provided it resells with minimum depreciation... because then the ultimate cost of ownership is very, very small indeed.

The advantage of the Prius is that there is no gas counterpart, so there is no "premium" in the traditional sense. The hybrid powertrain is essentially the inherent and standard nature of the vehicle.

Resale has been historically very good with the Prius, but I think that will start to decline for the short term, and then will once again improve as gas prices will rise in the future... and they will.

I actually agree with Consumer Reports. :surprise:

TM

circlew

As you may know, I leased a 330xi and the car was near perfect regarding reliability. In terms of traction in the snow, it was the best car I've ever experienced and that was with crappy RFT All-Season tires! Had I opted to add 4 snows during the winter months, it just would have gotten better! On many 6+ incher snow days, the car was akin to a Jeep, only with the sweetest balance ever!

During a service for that car, I was loaned a 335i and the exact same trip that I took that day in the rain with both cars showed Dewey's unmistakable loss of traction on power-on turns for the 335i. The TC came on multiple times and the car was unsteady. This was a good trial because the tires were exactly the same brand/model. It was very easy to perform power-controlled turns...absent from the AWD version!

Might I say I loved the acceleration of the turbo version far more than the car I leased. That went without saying but I am sure the 335xi solved much of the RWD traction. Much can be done, however with the proper rubber for various temps and conditions with the RWD...but that can't slow you down after you've tripped the radar!

Regards,
OW

jlbl

335i. The TC came on multiple times and the car was unsteady.

Did you try to switch off TC (DTC off — but not DSC)?

A fortnight ago I drove my 335d with RFT Bridgestone summer tires uphill on 5 inches of salted, melting snow. DTC off and soft hands helped a lot in keeping rear wheels in the proper way. It was not a big deal. I did not find enough difficulties as to stop and provide the tires with Scandinavian socks.

Regards,
Jose

hpowders

The 325i that I had trouble with in the snow was a leased vehicle. I did not want to spring for snow tires. After that first experience of spinning and sliding helplessly, I never again took any of my BMW's out during winter snow. I learned to rely on NYC's fine mass transit system. I'm glad to be living full time in Florida now so I can drive my latest BMW hassle-free all year-round.

circlew

Jose, I did not. Once I felt the pedal rate that broke the tires loose, I just lightened up on the poer on during the turns. The first traction loss surprised me.

On the way back with the 330xi, I deliberately took the same turn with heavy power-on on the same turn and there was no loss of traction...I got used to that for any wet/snow situation with the xi and the re-balance for the additional power of the turbo car is definitely needed.

I see you are balancing your high-torque chassis very adeptly. It takes some practice from car to car depending on the balance afforded by the chassis and drive train.

Regards,
OW

laurasdada

Just where do I put the engagement ring on this stunning beauty:

jlbl

Oh, I am well aware that AWD assures more grip in cornering and climbing fussy pavements.

I do not use snow tires in winter because even going to the mountains as much as I can the proportion of snowed miles per drive is very low. I feel envious of my friends living up there when I see them driving safely and quickly whilst I play funny games with hands and the right foot. Yet switching off DTC helps me to keep control. :sick:

Regards,
Jose

jlbl

indeed, Bill, even if I cannot see her but in half. Is it the best half? :P

Regards,
Jose

anthonyp

Dewey

I assume you are getting a new car, no matter, so I did want to mention that the undercarriage of the Prius looks like it could possibly give you trouble in a deeper snow, say five inches or more...I personally like the pictures Tag posted..Car interior looks crisp and clean--functional, and the seats looked comfortable....If your wife is keeping her car, then this is your car-therefore it looks like a winner all around, except possibly the snow depth thing...You have plenty of time to change your mind, and thanks for the in depth sharing with us....Tony

tagman

LD,
I saw it the other day, and was blown away. It is absolutely gorgeous.

Here's another pic, because I think yours might be removed by the host for being too big.



Maybe if you leave the ring on top of a sack of canned groceries in the driver's seat of the car.... ???



TM

tagman

Here it is.

From concept to possible production, anticipated to begin February 2010... but it isn't in stone just yet.

71 MPG.



Read about it here...

link title

TM

laurasdada

Apologies if the sizing is messing anybody's view up... Didn't realize the size as it looks ok to me.

Jose, I think there are many, many "best half" views of this car. I'm guessing it might even convince a certain Infiniti Product Specialists to switch allegiances!

I was, am and always will be, a fool for a pretty face.

jlbl

This AM really is a beauty taken as a whole or detail by detail. When I see cars like this being smashed in James Bond films I do not pay attention to the plot but to the poor car ruined.

(This kind of schizophrenia happens to me also if the film band is good. Then I'd rather listen to the music than watch the film — I won't comment anything on pretty faces without being present my lawyer :surprise: .)

Regards,
Jose

jlbl

Wow! It looks like the 2CV of the 21st Century first half. Fuel economy and engine simplicity. It will be an excellent choice.

Regards,
Jose

hpowders

to put Mr Dewey in a spanking new diesel 71 mpg VW Polo before the close of business, February 11, 2010?

Incomparable German engineering, fun to drive, great mpg, plenty of room in the rear for disgruntled clients or family members and front wheel drive for better handling in the snow.

This could be the one, Dewey!

anthonyp

Hi Tag

As Dewey said---Alot of talk from the Germans, but nothing--Maybe this is to take some of the sting out of the Prius getting 50 mpg overall...and coming soon Tony

circlew

Turn signal stalk. You picture is too big.

Regards,
OW

rockshocka1

Many moons ago, I went through similar situation as LD. I was posting pics I loaded on Carspace, & while my preview on the desktop showed everything good, Pat had to remove them because they were waaaay too big.

I did the exact same procedure more recently, & no problems...?

FWIW, LD's pic showed perfectly to scale on my mobile earlier when posted.

Bug?

dewey

The whole notion of "bang for the buck" is flawed and can easily be bent around byanyone who wishes to prove his car was worth the $$$.

A person who is short of $$$ will seek to maximize his $$$ will unlikely buy a Prius that is about double the price of a Honda Fit or Corolla(at least here in Canada) with minimal $$$ of gas savings. Also resale values of Corollas and Fits are pretty damned good.

dewey

The Prius looks like it could possibly give you trouble in a deeper snow, say five inches or more

That is why I am considering a hybrid Lexus RX450h.

Most members in this forum treats the RX as if it as if it is some kind of medical RX with devastating side effects. No the Lexux RX is not the bubonic plague. It just so happens to be a high qualiity fuel efficient crossover that is luxurious, comfortable, highly reliable and technologically sophisticated.

In fact it is the very best crossover in the industry and is the benchmark vehicle to beat.

dewey

Ok Howard you have a Rabbit.

Here is an experiment--if you are going on a two hour journey with five people in your Rabbit observe fifth person in the middle of the rear seat and during those two hours watch with your rearview mirror the increasingly contorted look of anguished discomfort and hostility on the face of that passenger.

I sat in the rear seat of one at the Toronto car show. It is absolutely inexcusable that a Rabbit should have such a humungous hump in the centre rear of its car especially since it is not a RWD car and should not have a large protruding driveshaft. This IMO is very bad design among those German engineers. Look inside a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Fit. No hump whatsoever. A great design that provides comfort for the middle passenger.

I am sure the VW Polo will be just as badly designed as the Golf. Also most my driving is in the city. My bet is that 71 MPG figure in the city will drop far below 50MPG. A Prius for me is the better car.

rockshocka1

Maybe so, but your Don Cherry can't swallow Alex is better than Sid, so who can take Canuckleheads seriously? Just kidding, of course, sort of. ;-P

I really wish the best in your vehicle search & can't but help root for some performance vehicle to take the lead, but the times are a changing...

hpowders

Just kidding, Dewey! The Rabbit is indeed a tight fit for two in the rear. It's an okay car for a couple who need to carry a lot of stuff on occasion, since the rear seats fold down giving one quite a bit of room. As a matter of fact, I always leave the rear seats down. It's a hatchback for better and for worse. It is surely not in competition with an RX 350! As a matter of fact, I am having difficulty attempting to distinguish any significant external differences between the Rabbit and the Polo!

For you the Prius Touring or RX 350-450h would indeed be a better vehicle. Like I've been saying, as soon as Lexus e-mails me that the HS 250h is ready for a drive, I'm there! When folks here talk about hybrid vehicles, at least I will be able to relate from having some field experience.