What Keeps You Loyal To A Brand?

m1miata

Early 60's LeSabre had class. And I wouldn't mind owning a '72 Olds Cutlass. Most of the GM cars went downhill around the era of FWD, or just before. Golden age of design has to be '68 through '70 for GM cars. The Camaro is the beauty, with the runner up and best mid-sized coupe the Malibu right in there for style, as in first class. Heck, look at the Corvairs to Corvettes. GM was cool back when.
-Loren

m1miata

As for loyalty..... well I think more people are now loyal Honda or Toyota buyers due to pretty dicey years for domestic cars overall. If you were to ask though about styles, or cool cars to own, I bet they would go for a Corvette over a Supra. Of course not everyone would. GM should go back to pushing out some good old standard leading edge styled Body by Fisher quality cars once again. The CTS was a bold move that paid out, as did the Solstice which grabbed attention. Stop playing around with marginal changes to the warranty and just go something like a five year bumper to bumper, or even match Hyundai, would be a good thing.
Good to see they did not go with electric assist steering on the Aura. Now lets rid the world of the electronic throttle control. - Loren

cxvargas

I used to drive a Tracker for 7+ years. Extremely reliable but the dealership experience was just OK. I know most of the technology on the Tracker came from Suzuki so I don't know if I should get a Grand Vitara. To keep me loyal to a brand, besides the overall quality of the car, the dealership experience also count on my decision.

stickguy

unless you are committed because of personal reasons (copany town, you or your family work for them), I think to day past experience is the biggest thing. If you have a Toyota that is perfect for 10 years, you are likely to get another one, as long as they offer a model that suits your needs.

I think Honda ran into this problem. They had people that loved their Honda, but ended up moving on when they needed a type of vehicle that Honda didn't make.

Acura and the Odyssey in particular helped with this problem.

wale_bate1

"...as long as they offer a model that suits your needs...."

Precisely so.

Nothing Toyota Corp. sells here right now suit my needs or tastes. Nada. Unfortunately, ditto every other mfr selling in the US at this moment in time!

Alas...

nvbanker

He drives a Lexus?

He should have traded it in the day he became CEO. Get a Lincoln LS or something.

He did, juice - a Jaguar XK. Not a bad choice, IMO, either.

gagrice

Even the Ford owned Jaguar is not the same as buying a vehicle built in the USA. Unless they are making the Jag here now. Better than driving the Lexus.

That is an image that needs to be addressed.

I keep thinking about the Honda dealership I visited looking at the Civic hybrid. Parked right in front was a new Jetta. I asked the salesman if they had taken it in on trade. No it belongs to the Sales manager. He agreed it did not look good parked out in front.

nvbanker

You find that all the time at dealerships. Part of that is that the management and staff of most car stores change jobs so much, that they can't afford to buy a new car of whatever they're selling every time they switch.
Still though, your point is very well taken. I don't like doing business with a guy touting me on Chevy, when he's driving a Ford Explorer..... To many of them - it's just inventory to be moved.

sls002

With variable valve timing, the electronic throttle allows the computer to optimize everything.

m1miata

With variable valve timing, the electronic throttle allows the computer to optimize everything.

Like throttle responce hesitation. After reading various posts, like on the Mustang board, I do wonder about this electronic throttle control. And yes, you are correct. Optimize gas mileage performance and such is the goal. I personally think more about the possible side effects on how it works. I bet bliping the throttle when downshifting doesn't work with electronic throttle. Oh well, I suppose it can work. I take it if I buy a C5 Corvette, electronic throttle is what I will have. Looks like the Vettes top Stangs for gas mileage every year.

And the electric assist steering has never gotten a good grade for cars like the GM Saturn Vue. I take it, properly programed it does work, as they claim the Mazda3 steers well, and it is electric assist. Some report they can hear the system whine though. GM went old school on the new Aura, which is a good move.
-Loren

m1miata

So, if Hyundai goes down a path of better reliability year after year, does it follow that many previously loyal to Honda or Toyota jump ship? Seem many years ago the brand loyalty was mostly based on performance, looks or a combination of the two. I certainly like GM styles say pre-'74. And yes, liked some of Ford and Chrysler products, as well along lives journey. Seems the body was more solid on a GM as compared to say the Chryslers of yesteryears, which closed with a more tinny sound. Some of Chryslers products looked pretty cool though, like the 'Cuda or Challenger. Come buying time, I think more people preferred the Body by Fisher though. Seemed a better body and interior. I did like the Mustang and owned a couple, and the Fairlane 500 was a nice mid-sized car of its time. But as a whole, I preferred the old GM line of cars.

After 1973, especially by the early years of GM going FWD it seems loyalty of brand, and their quality started to diminish. Seem like Japan had it going for economy cars and quality for the years of really high gas prices. People started to look beyond style and performance as in HP for brand loyalty and thought more of the practical. And for sport, BMW did a marvelous job of becoming the ultimate driving machine and while adding many loyal customers. Volvo and Saabs following I take it shrunk after the buy-outs in the way of loyalty, though product still sells.

My wildest guess, is that more people are looking at the individual model of car now, and the quality of the dealership they will be using. I have nothing to back that up of course. And there are cases, like the VW reliability issues which I think have somewhat killed the entire line. They need some solid years for the whole line to do better in the ratings. It is one of those cars I would consider based on most aspects until reliability comes into play. In talking to VW owners you find those well pleased with the product, and those with the typical issues, like electrical. The Jetta, before the new look, seemed to have quite the following. Classy looking interiors, and good enough handling, with a solid body made it stand out. Unlike the loyalty of Japan makes, which is based on reliability, or fast engine, Jetta was more like the old school loyalty. Well maybe. Some bought it based on standard safety equipment, so loyalty is not a one size fits all.
-Loren

nvbanker

So, if Hyundai goes down a path of better reliability year after year, does it follow that many previously loyal to Honda or Toyota jump ship?

If Hyundai can deliver Honda quality, for a few thousand less, and the cars are as attractive, sure I think they will. I think they already are. In droves. Of course, the real defectors are the Taurus, Impala, and Intrepid drivers who are now looking for a Honda, but try a Hyundai and can get the next level car up for the same money.

m1miata

I agree!

What about the new Aura, will this bring people over to GM? What I am thinking is that those accepting the particular car for what it is, and are not too gun shy of GM, may give it a go. The couple to three cars which seem like decent buys, I am not sure relate to brand loyalty. Must say the CTS, Corvettes and this new Aura seem to be on the right path to bringing back GM. But it is the few cars and not the brand which would win me over. I think Toyota, Honda or BMW have an easier sell for the line up as a whole, as in branded loyalty. Now I sat in a new Civic and found the feel, with that long dash and cab forward all too strange for me. I did not even test drive one. Great looking little car, but feels wrong to me. As for quality, I would right or wrong, assume it to be top line -- so in that respect some blind faith there. Ford and GM will not get such breaks however. Chryslers following may be in a way the older loyal fans, like those looking for style and power ( Hemi ) and in part some indentifing with the new merger with Mercedes, seeing it as having some German influence. Will it be a lasting loyalty? Hard to say, as it depends on follow through. Reliable cars? The Charger, while not looking like say a'71 model, does have RWD and stability control and 250HP all for under $24K before discounting. Not bad. Ooops, almost forgot something. You can not buy loyalty. Let's say it is a good deal, reasonable looks, a good relationship with the dealership, and it has some resale value -- maybe people will start a following for the new Chrysler. The PT and the 300 were a good jump start.
-Loren

snakeweasel

So, if Hyundai goes down a path of better reliability year after year, does it follow that many previously loyal to Honda or Toyota jump ship?

I know a couple of Honda loyalists that are now considering Hyundai. An example is my SIL who after seeing the experience of my daughter, my wife and myself with our Hyundais is considering replacing his CRV with a Santa Fe

ateixeira

Aura will be a successful model but it's not going to do a whole lot of volume. There's no 4 cylinder economy model, no wagon, no AWD.

It's going to appeal to the same type of folks that buy G6s, perhaps slightly more upscale.

-juice

sls002

I am sure that you know, but BMW has replaced the throttle with variable valve lift.

rorr

"I am sure that you know, but BMW has replaced the throttle with variable valve lift."

Ummm, what? :confuse:

Please 'splain, because Mongo is confused about how in the heck variable valve lift can substitute for a throttle?

sls002

The purpose of the throttle is to choke off the flow of air/fuel. With continuously variable valve lift, the valves at idle are open just enough to let in enough air/fuel for the engine to idle. As the driver steps on the accelerator pedal, the computer allows for addititional valve lift to let in more air/fuel for additional power.

carguy58

but I am a big Honda/Acura and Mazda guy.I have owned 1 of each. Toyota's exterior designs are too conservative for my tastes. Nissan/Infinti's exterior designs while nice are just not my cup of tea. The Domestics-I just can;t like their cars enough to buy them. Its not their dicey reliability of past years(anymore anyway)that keeps from my buying them now its just there's always a Honda or Mazda product that I like better than a Domestic.

What keeps me loyal to a brand:

1.) exterior styling that appeals to my tastes.
If a car doesn't appeal on the outside to me I can;t see buying it.
2.) high quality of interior plastics in the cars thatI buy(I don't like cheap interior plastics.)
3.)good customer service-Acura customer service has been very good to me while owning the Acura I presently own.
4.)Reliability-Honda/Acura is great for reliability but Mazda is average to a little above average. Yes but I do understand that ALL automakers have their problems with cars though.

Not a high point of buying a car:

The consequence of buying a Mazda is not good resale value compared to Honda but on the flip side I keep my cars for 6-7 yyears so I can take the lower resale value on the Mazda vs the Honda with some ease.

I have an 02 Acura CL with a little over 50,000 miles on it and no mechanical problems so far. I have had flat tires alot on the Michilens though from hole to nails in them. The nails and holes came from my job site though. There was thew tranny recall but thats about it. I had a 98 Mazda 626 LX 4 cyl for 3 years on a lease before buying the Acura and the brakes were starting to go. I also had a water leak from a hose that leaked on the front passenger floor. It was an easy fix. I also had a recall on the 626 that said water might leak from the air vents. The battery blew out and left me stranded once. Luckily I was close to home. Mazda fixed that under warranty. I would still buy a Mazda again though.

michaellno

Growing up in Southern California, I found that Japanese brands were (are) quite popular. When I got married, we went through:

2 Isuzus
1 Mazda
1 Nissan
1 Honda

Moving to Colorado, I continued that trend with another Honda. When I met what would become wife #2, I found that she was a big Ford fan, so we had 4 of them in a 7 or 8 year span.

When I bought my latest car 4 years ago, I researched pretty much everything and wasn't loyal to Ford. I ended up with a Saturn, which has become our latest thing .. since I bought mine, the family has acquired 3 more. Part of it is the exemplary customer service that Saturn provides, some of it is due to the benefits (as we see them) of the polymer side panels, and some of it is due to the fact that Saturn offers cars that met my family's needs (2 L-series, 1 VUE, 1 ION).

I found that living in semi-rural Colorado domestic pickups are quite popular; in California when I lived there, trucks were work vehicles only, not personal transportation. Lots of Subarus and Audis dot the roads, due to the winter conditions that simply don't exist in LA.

It's an evolution of sorts .. you buy what you like, and if it happens to be from the same manufacturer, well, then I guess they did their job right.

boaz47

way back on post three or four. Brand loyalty? What is that? If you value a particular attribute in a car and the manufacturer that you now have doesn't make that anymore? Jump ship. A car is a machine and some machines are better than others no matter who makes them. Nissan isn't my favorite or most dependable manufacturer but the Altama may be a better sedan than an Accord or Camry if you like a bit more sport to your sedan. Chrysler might be the best at mini vans if you like stow and go. GM has the Vette and it is less expensive than a Ford GT, but who wouldn't love a Ford GT? Hard to beat a Civic in a small car. Ford F-250 would be my first choice in a truck with the Dodge 2500 Cummings close behind. If I wanted a 1/2 ton I might get a Toyota but you couldn't pay me to drive a Honda Pickup, they do have ugly down pat. I would buy a Mazda3 before I would get a Corolla and I would have bought a MR-2 before a Miata. So there is no loyalty here.

nvbanker

No disrespect intended - but how on earth did you go from Hondas, Nissans, & Mazdas to Saturns??? They are the polar opposites of cars! The Imports are smooth, quiet and tight. My experience with Saturns is that they're done at 50,000 miles, sound like a John Deere running and I've never been able to handle the styling, if you can call it that, but that's just me....

snakeweasel

My experience with Saturns is that they're done at 50,000 miles,

I wouldn't say that, my kids got one at 125K and its running just fine.

michaellno

My L300 has 52,000 miles on it .. granted, not entirely trouble free, but I expect to get over 100K on mine. My stepson has an '01 L200 that he bought used and now has something like 130K on it. He takes fanatical care of it and I would think that 150-175K is not out of the question. He routinely drives between Salt Lake City and Denver in it and hasn't had a bit of trouble.

One other thing ... my experience with Fords (Escort, Expedition, Explorer and Focus) showed me that the domestic nameplates have the same level of reliability as the Japanese manufacturers do, and at a lower price point, comparatively speaking.

I will concede your point regarding styling .. but the other positive attributes of our Saturns compensate for that one deficiency.

gagrice

I think you missed the main reason. Same as yours. The Saturn dealers are better than most. My daughter traded a 2 year old Honda CRV on a used Saturn because the dealer was fair to her. If the sales staff are any indication of a dealership I would never buy a Lexus or Mercedes in San Diego. Honda and Toyota dealers in San Diego in general are very poor. I have had very good dealers with GMC, Chevy, Ford and Volkswagen here.

andres3

I've found Tipton Honda to be pretty good in El Cajon. Which Honda dealers treated you unfairly Gagrice?

andre1969

Years ago I recommended a 1994 Civic to some friends of mine, a married couple. They were fed up with it by around 80,000 miles, when head gasket #2 blew. It also needed some a/c work in that timeframe as well. They went from that to a Saturn S-series sedan. It's been a few years since I've seen them, but I think they still have it. I think they're aobut the only people I know who went from an import to a GM product...usually it's the other way around!

I know a few people who have had Saturn S-series models that got them up into the high 100K or even 200K mile range. They might buzz, squeak, and rattle while doing it, and personally I find the S-series to be uncomfortable, but they seem like long-lived little suckers.

My friends also have a Ford Windstall...1998 I believe. It was still running okay the last time I saw them, but I have a gut feeling that it will ultimately send them, running and screaming, to an import brand!

john500

Saturn S-series were very good cars from the inception (1991 I believe) to about 1995-1996. Thereafter, GM started muscling in on what was essentially an independent distributor owned by GM. Quality went way down and has stayed quite low. CR documents this as do several Saturn posting boards and ex-Saturn employees. The 2000 model SW2 that I owned was my all-time favorite car for ergonomics and the proper blend of economy, driving fun and practicality (I've owned about 20 cars in the 17 years or so that I have been driving, some quite expensive). Unfortunately, after the fifth major breakdown, I gave up on the SW2. I may now unfairly judge all of GM's products based upon the Saturn. However, to put human tendencies towards the car, I felt betrayed. Only money will bring me back now (ie GM pays me to drive their car for a couple of years). Otherwise, I would be advertising that I am a glutton for punishment (ie repeating the same mistakes over and over and not learning life's lessons).

gagrice

Well, we went to Tipton Honda to test drive the Honda Accord Hybrid when they came out. It was like it was gold. No test drives and $3000 premium on the car. It had been on the lot 10 days when we stopped in. They also had an Odyssey touring model that my wife kind of liked. It was not available for test drive. The Odyssey was also showing a $3000 dealer add on. We could test the regular Odyssey or a cheapo Accord. My opinion of Tipton Honda is arrogant gangsters.

The dealer in Poway was more to my liking as he offered to let me test the only Civic Hybrid he had on the lot. Did not try to sell me something else.

anythngbutgm

Given the current state of affairs, I would think that you are not alone in your disdain for GM John500...

My fondest memories about Saturn was the touting of the most US content in the product. Something like 95% of the components were designed, assembled, and acquired from right here in the states. No other brand, including those found under the rest of the GM umbrella could make that kind of claim. Pretty impressive back then and as a Domestic car fan, I was really pulling for Saturn to be a tough competitor to the import brands.

Had a friend of mine from way back who drove the wheels off of a 91 SL1 or SL2 with nary a wimper. 150k miles (I think) when she sold it and she did NOT take care of it. It just ran and ran.... But man, was that thing crude. The engine was noisy as all heck, the wind noise was overpowering and on the highway, over 65 the thing felt like it was totally disconnected from the road. An E350 Ford van would blow that thing off the road if you weren't careful...

Reliable? Absolutely. Nice car? Hell freakin NO.

m1miata

To sum it all up, the Saturn car could be considered one of those, " gee I wish this thing would die " cars. The new Aura looks a bit promising. A foot emergency brake, not too swift.
At least I think it has one?

The Saturn dealership looks upscale compared to other GM centers. So perhaps some may consider that a plus. I am still considering buying a used Corvette or maybe a CTS, but I am not sure how much this pulls me into the GM following. Many years ago, I was very impressed with those cool looking cars by GM - Body by Fisher. Camaro is still one remarkably styled car. Set a newest Camaro or the first Camaro next to a Mustang, and see how much perfection of style the Camaro has. Now the Stangs may be more practical, and have had a lot better backing from Ford, than GM seems to show for the Camaro, so that explains a lot. I have said this before, GM left the customers, then customers left GM. If they ever get the simple business concept of the buyer being the boss, and they all, including the CEO work for the customer ( the boss ) perhaps they would be even farther along the road to recovery. Well they say they are on a solid path back. I would say, it is wait and see, with some promise showing here and there. If I buy a Corvette, I may be loyal fan of the Vette first, then maybe Chevy and GM. And GM has some good history in racing and styling. The more current bland and rusty years just get in the way.
-Loren

ateixeira

The Outlook looks very competitive, too. They just announced pricing, $27,995 for a FWD XE, and it's got 270hp and 18" rims standard. AWD is $30k for starters.

Now, ditch the Ion and the lineup looks good. The Vue is halfway there, the new interior is a whole lot better.

And I guess the Relay will be phased out as the Outlook arrives in volume.

-juice

nvbanker

I think you missed the main reason. Same as yours. The Saturn dealers are better than most. My daughter traded a 2 year old Honda CRV on a used Saturn because the dealer was fair to her.

Well, that could be. In Vegas, the Saturn dealers here are just like everyone else - they highball you, and if you take it great. If you balk, suddenly "they made a mistake, we're so sorry, it's actually....." No difference. That's been my experience.

boaz47

Is Vegas different? Here in southern california you pick the Saturn you want and it has a base price. You add the options you want and they all cost the same. If my sister went to a Saturn dealer and got the same car I did in 2001 she paid the exact same price as I did. The only dealing came if you had a trade. I didn't nor did my sister. I couldn't send her to a Honda dealer and expect that, ever. Maybe Lexus but I am not sure. This was supposed to be the same idea when they came out with the Scion. You went to a dealer, looked up the car you wanted on line. Added the options and a price popped out. Only with the exception of Longo Toyota in LA dealers out here stated adding a dealer charge in spite of the rules Toyota made about the selling practices on Scions. Maybe in Vegas they didn't have to follow the Saturn rules?

dino001

Only with the exception of Longo Toyota in LA dealers out here stated adding a dealer charge in spite of the rules Toyota made about the selling practices on Scions

I don't think it's against rules (unfortunately). Scion website adds dealers fee automatically for all Tampa store. Fee is the same for all stores - handsome $699 IIRC :sick:

atlvibe

I switched from a GM to Toyota today. The main reason is that I know that the Tacoma will pull back the bucks when I flip in a few months. The styling and reliability also helps. OK nvbanker, I got my 1st 2007 fix of the year. Come on in the waters fine.

nvbanker

Is Vegas different?

Well, of course it's different - but not with car dealerships, hopefully....

I had heard what you're telling me forever, and believed it. Never liked Saturns, so didn't venture in myself, but my family likes SAturns, so when I went in with my BIL to check out a Vue when they came out. I was surprised when he was first highballed just like every other dealer would do. He declined because he could get a Trailblazer for less - then suddenly, the salesman retreated to "check the numbers" and came back with a price $3,000 less than the first quote. No difference to me..... By the way, we walked. He bought the Trialblazer.

nvbanker

OK nvbanker, I got my 1st 2007 fix of the year. Come on in the waters fine

You're a funny guy, atl.... However - I bought a Camry at the auction for someone else Friday, and drove it home. I have to say, that's about the nicest little ride I've ever driven. It's no wonder Toyota is winning....nobody can match the near perfection of handling, comfort, even style now, economy and power of that little car for the money. I've never driven anything smoother and easier to drive at that price point. The Sonata drives about half as nice. It may be as good now, but they haven't figured out the NVH like Toyota has.

I'll be jumping in in the spring - have no fear....Some 07 will grace my garage.

ateixeira

Talked to a former neighbor I had not seen in a while, she told me her Grand Caravan was on its 3rd transmission...

...up until she traded it in for an Odyssey. Doubt she'll ever go back.

-juice

atlvibe

It's no wonder Toyota is winning.... nobody can match the near perfection of handling, comfort, even style now, economy and power of that little car for the money. Agreed, it seems as the domestic retreat Toyota is "Moving Foward". It's product. Period. Not the deal or supposed free money(that you more than lose on resale). In the future, I hope for the best with the domestics, but sometimes fear the worst.

explorerx4

i guess that means you are not a harley guy.

nvbanker

i guess that means you are not a harley guy. ''

Actually, I'm not a cycle guy, but that's a whole different thing. I AM a 4 stroke guy, and therefore, hate the sound of a 2 stroke going zing zing all the way home. I can't ride a belly bike because my belly gets in the way. I respect Harley tremendously for what they have done in the recent decades and the product differentiation they have remained true to. NVH is their callsign, but it's a hallmark of American bikes. I only wish Ford could do what Harley did.

rockylee

SEMA: Ford Reintroduces Boss 302 V8

LAS VEGAS — Tired of playing second fiddle to the Hemi engine — perhaps the most famous power plant of its kind in the U.S. — Ford said on Tuesday that it is resurrecting its legendary 5.0-liter V8 engine with an all-new Ford Racing Boss 302.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117351

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117383

Ummmm, this car would be a Joe Dirt, favorite. :P

Rocky

anythngbutgm

This car is going to be a super crazy hit when it hits the streets. Chrysler did an awesome job with this and if I can buy a 6.1l Hemi with a stick in something like Plum Crazy Purple or that yellow color, I will have a parking spot in my garage JUST to accomodate it. As someone who wasn't alive to live through the muscle car era, here's my chance.

Can't share the same enthusiasm for the Cartaro I mean Camaro with the ridiculous profile. :lemon:

rockylee

LOL, the Camaro IMHO is way better looking then the plasticky Challenger. I can't wait for the stoplight drags between both cars and even you knowthe new Camaro will always be the winner.

Rocky

anythngbutgm

Um, no I don't. You're over-enthusistic GM fanboism of GM has blurred your vision again Rocky. In 2009, whatever candle has been burning for the Camaro enthusiasm will have burned out as the industry will yet again move on the next big thing leaving Putz and his crew scratching their heads wondering why the buying public didn't wait up...

rockylee

ROTF !!! :P

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/UPDATE/611020441/- 1148/AUTO01

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061102/UPDATE/611020435/- 1148/AUTO01

Rocky