What Keeps You Loyal To A Brand?

mrjones944

If the Infiniti and Nissan brand have never let you down how do you know how their workmanship is?

m1miata

If this site is correct for cost of repairs, such as the transmission, you may wish to get an extended warranty if keeping the car for past the original one.
-Loren

nvbanker

Yes, although I recently drove a G-35, and absolutely loved the performance, comfort, design and handling of the car, my experience with Nissan of the last 5 years or so would suggest you don't want to keep it past 70,000 miles or so.... Hellova car though, no argument.

m1miata

Perhaps it is just me, but did Chrysler take yet another wrong turn when they designed the Sebring. Saw one today on the road, perhaps it was a test drive, as it was near the dealership. This thing looks like lots of different parts from various autos kinda slapped together. Then it hit me, I have seen this before. This new Sebring is another version of an Ion. Why make another Ion?

I wonder how many are loyal Chrysler buyers? My PT is pretty much a trouble free car, but I wonder some times about the car, as a friend had one with major oil consumption problems. Mine uses a bit - not too much yet. The PT - 300 - Mini-Vans and such are so different in nature and draw so different a buyer, how would you classify a Mopar fan today. It is not like any one style, or performance is close. In a way I kinda like Chrysler being there will to go out on a limb to make something new. In that respect - gotta like'em. For those that liked the 300M with FWD and sleek design, it is somewhat of a shock to now have RWD, blocky look with tall doors and smallish windows. Oh, and throw in being a German owned company. Perhaps the word for a loyalist and fan of Chrysler now has to be being able to adapt to what's next. It is not their Father's Chrysler, yet it is not exactly any one look these days at all. In a way it is a refreshingly different. Well, the Sebring is just, well different.

I think Cadillac may be well on the road to pleasing the loyal owners, and winning back those that were shaken off by huge missteps of GM over the years. Need we bring up the 8-6-4 engine, Cavalier/Cimmeron., and well enough already. The Deville, now a DTS is a good solid FWD car. The Seville and Eldorado FWD cars, with the Northstar offered something for older and younger buyers, as they were no longer just a luxo barge. Now, the newest RWD cars are offering even more performance. The CTS handles great, and is a good size for those in need of a less massive car. I am sure the upkeep is not as high as the German and Japan makes. I had a few problems with my GM cars over the years, leaving me a bit shy to jump back into GM machines, yet there is something I have liked about a lot of their line of cars style wise compared to the other Big Three of days gone bye which draws me in. Sure, I have had great luck so far with every Japan car owned, but for the price of a couple year old used Caddy, I end up with a new Camry say, with a four banger - maybe a V6 if lucky. And there are so many in parking lots, you don't know which car is yours when you return from shopping. Of course the upside is not having eight trips to the service shop in the first three months. It appears that the bad era for GM is over however and Cadillacs are up to higher standards once again.

Please send help if I am driving into quicksand !
Only THINKING about returning to GM at this time.
-Loren

lemko

Well, Cadillac has been pretty good to me, especially early in the game. I think the difference is in the dealership. I kind of had it made because my service advisor was also a member of the car club to which I belong. I most definately would get the extended warranty with any luxury car. Nothing is a bigger white elephant than a luxury car out of warranty. If you're financing, especially long-term, it's imperative. You don't want to be making car payments and paying for repairs. Gap insurance is also a must should your car get stolen or totalled.

Per repair costs, you'll be surprised at how low they are compared to the German makes. Similarity to other GM makes enables independent mechanics to service less complex repairs. Heck, I took my 1994 Cadillac DeVille to a local mechanic near my workplace for stuff like brakes. It cost only about a 1/3 of what the dealership would've charged.

Anything that has broken on my cars is mostly minor stuff like interior bits, but they are inexpensive. I blew out a speaker in my DeVille, but that was my fault for constantly playing the radio too loud. The Z-rated Goodyear Eagles on my STS don't last too long. I could get about 33K out of a set. You can replace them with lower rated tires that last long but aren't as "sticky."

andre1969

Why make another Ion?

Yeah, I can see some Ion in the new Sebring. it also makes me think of a bloated Toyota Corolla, as well, or maybe a much-less graceful interpretation of an '02-06 Altima.

Chrysler sent me some info by email that showed pics of the new Sebring convertible. It's actually not as awkward as I'd feared, but it's too tall and stubby looking for my tastes. Makes me think of the Solara convertible, which I'm not fond of, either. The proportions of the Solara and Sebring 'vert make me think of some old 40's car, with modern sheetmetal forced on. IMO it's the worst looking Chrysler convertible since they started building them again in 1982.

I wonder though, if the new Sebring will represent the return of something resembling a midsized convertible, with an adult-sized back seat.

Sometimes it takes awhile for a new style to grow on me, but I don't know if the Sebring ever will. The Dodge Avenger might, though. They went a different route with that one, making it look a bit like a shrunken Charger. The result is a much more muscular looking, agressive style than the Sebring.

anythngbutgm

See, I thought the new Sebring convertible was quite sharp looking. For a boulevard cruiser like a Solara it's competitive. And the Interior was never a strong point with past models, but it appears Chrysler put some effort in with the new one. Not Lexus or Audi, but certainly admirable.

Exterior-wise, the Sebring is far more attractive than the "Drive it backwards or forwards" styling of the Solara and to a lesser extent the G6.

m1miata

Well the Crossfire convertible is fine looking. The previous Sebring looked fine. Current style is well let's be kind and say nothing.
-Loren

andre1969

maybe I'm being too harsh on the Sebring convertible. I don't think it looks too bad in this shot.

Still, I don't think it's nearly the looker that the 1996-00 Sebring 'vert was. I think the problem here is that the nose on the car is fairly short, and the windshield seems fairly far forward. It's like there's too much car aft of the windshield. I think most convertibles look better when they have a longer hood.

A couple years ago, I tried to do a photoshop conversion of a Magnum, turning it into a convertible (this was before the Charger was out), and it had kind of the same problem.

qbrozen

I'm with you. I think its a good-looking car.

I also like it as a sedan.

The problem is, they are still insisting on going head-to-head with ToyOnda. FWD V6 for nearly the same price (i priced it to about $28k well loaded, which is the same as a well loaded accord).

They needed to do 1 of 2 things. make it cheaper or make it RWD.

nvbanker

I buy a lot of used cars, Loren, and although I'm not a fan of many GM cars - they aren't bad cars. I don't shy away because of the running gear - it's the design, or lack thereof that turns me off mostly. They are low tech cars generally, yesteryears engines and bland styling, kind of the anti Toyota, which has bland styling (until very recently) and the highest tech under the hood.

But, they age pretty well, and run well, and are comfy sometimes. If you can handle the looks of some models, you won't hate the car. Frankly, I think GM is as good as Nissan or Mitsubishi, better than Kia, as good as Ford, and as good as Hyundai.

YMMV.

atlvibe

Loren, fast forward 5 years and the service writer comes to you with bad news. There's an internal transmission repair that's gonna cost a few thousand. Then you think that Camry or Hyundai Azera might not have been as dull you thought. Granted, any car can break. But why not stick with what you know works? Why tempt the automotive Gods? Once you get your Cadillac Jones going you're better off renting an Enterprise DTS once a week every year. The urge is calmed and you're still safe.

m1miata

Well the Camry is a good bet for having transmission problems from what I hear. Take a look at that board and a look at the news of Camry shift problems. As for Azera, I am not sure. Good long warranty, but in the area of transmissions, they are not noted as being the best. I had never driven the Sonata before, so I took a used one out to see how the V6 was when broke - in. Well the car was good, but not too overly impressive. When I tried to adjust the lumbar support, the handle fell off. Something strange around here. Unless it is my imagination, I see fewer new Hyundais on the road. Have there sales slowed? Maybe those base Azera year end close-outs will be priced below $23K ? Don't know if Azera or a Hyundai is a dream car. Guess it is visions from the past. Yeah, I know GM has some nasty ghosts too.
-Loren
P.S. Isn't the cost of foreign transmission repairs more than that of a Cadillac?

atlvibe

You're right the new Camry has gotten off to a bumpy start. Still IMO,the Asian cars would be superior in quality over the long haul than the GM. Sure neither one makes you run for the garage. The reason I mentioned Hyundai is that I feel their cars now rival Toyota and Honda. The also have the extended warranty the back it up. The Caddy would be fun but is it going to be a cohesive piece of machinery in a few years? Will it stay together like the Asian car in the long haul? I'm not saying don't but if you do, it's called GMPP. What's Cadillac new tag line? Life, Liberty and Pursuit.

nvbanker

Going to the auction nearly every week, I drive everything, and although JD Power said Hyundai is near Toyota quality now, they are no where near Toyota refinement, NVH, nor fit and finish. Not sure why JD said that, actually. They are close, I'll admit. I think Hyundai is about GM quality now, frankly. They remind me of a Chevy. Old technology, but it works pretty well. Warranty is great. But when you drive a new Camry, and then drive a new Sonata - the difference is very very noticeable - in noise, vibration, handling. The Camry is the easiest, most intuitive driving appliance I've ever driven. It's like driving an extension of yourself. The Sonata is still a car, and you know it.

As for the Cadillac, yes, it'll cost you more to keep up after the warranty is up. So, how long exactly, do you intend to keep the car? Plus, the Camry as great as it is, it's still an appliance, while the Cadillac is a beautiful thing that gives you much much more.

atlvibe

Banker is correct. Summary of the three finds that they are vastly different vehicles to compare . The Toyota is an appliance. Camry with few reliability blips and stellar resale. Hyundai is more crude product but still moving more upscale in the market. I think Hyundai is the next Toyota. The Cadillac itself does give more back to the driver in pleasure but has the ability to compromise that position in it's latter years. It's all a trade off. Think of the late but great LETS' MAKE A DEAL game show. Behind door # 1 is dullness with an antiseptic like service history. Behind door # 2 is a more crude product but still not a write off ... can we say warranty folks? Finally, behind door # 3 is indeed more of a drivers's car by any standard with style and amenities, but has the potential of older age service hangovers. It's all behind the door you choose. Ok Monty and Carol Marol...let's make a deal.

andre1969

Ok Monty and Carol Marol...let's make a deal.

And I'll take Charles Nelson Reilly to block! Oh, wait, wrong gameshow! :P

m1miata

Well cost wise, I am thinking the Mustang GT may be the best dollar value. Ford Mustangs pre-'05 have a pretty good reliability record, inexpensive parts for repair, with what should be lower repair hours for fix it time, and good resale value. I haven't owned a V8 since my '65 Mustang. Now it may be crude by modern standards, but when considering durability and bang for the buck, it is a class act. Loud rumbling sounding engine, go fast performance, and pretty good corning makes for a fun car and possibly a great second car to hold on to for years to come. Just a thought.

As for the three mentioned FWD cars, the Cadillac, Camry and Sonata, I agree Cadillac gadgets could be expensive to repair latter on, but I am not so sure today's Camry is as trouble free as those in the '90's and the Sonata is well like you said a little less refined and kinda bland I think. My Dad has a 2000 Camry, and it is OK, but he has an extended warranty due to potential sludge problems, and a few things that wore or needed repair that his '91 never did. His '91 was very-very simple and basic, but that was what Toyota did best. His new Camry feels more like an Olds. to me, which is both good and bad.

Wish I had a lot of money and could afford to buy those cars which were too expensive to buy in the poorer years. Ah to dream of a ten car garage. In Cadillacs, I do like the CTS, DeVilles are good, and the Sevilles great cars too, but when I first saw the 1992 Eldorado, I was very impressed. So of cars I would want to hold on to for show and driving, perhaps in Cadillac line, the Eldo would be cool. And of course the Jag XKE, and a sedan would take a couple places. Add a Malibu and Camaro of '68 as roommates in the garage. A '68 Mustang would be cool. Thus the possibility of getting a '99 or '04 Mustang as a long term toy. I realize they sold a lot of them, but perhaps in another decades time the last Eldorados and Fox Body Stangs, may be in car shows. Some are thinking the Olds. Aurora may be a collected car some day - not sure. My Dad had a '72 Cutlass Supreme, which I am sure is a collectible. Those were good looking cars, unlike the bland more current cars by GM. :shades:
-Loren

ateixeira

Sebring 'vert may have a similar MSRP to the Solara drop-top, but real world prices are far apart. You can get the Chrysler for several thousand less.

Same for used, except the difference is even greater.

That makes a used Sebring a potential bargain.

-juice

qbrozen

Personally, I was referring to the new sedan (hence my comparison to the accord price).

I don't think the new droptop is available yet, is it?

ateixeira

Not yet, I've seen new sedans in dealers but the ragtop won't come until spring. That photo had a ragtop, though, that's why I had it in mind.

-juice

anythngbutgm

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/12/11/gm-halts-sales-of-saturn-outlook-gmc-acad- ia/

What's up with this? :confuse:

m1miata

Have you seen one yet? It reminds me of the Saturn Ion. The Sebring use to be a fairly good looking automobile. This one is simply wrong.
-Loren

m1miata

Gee, just when the world had a shortage of SUVs, comes this sad news. Stop of sales of the new SUV by Saturn.
While the new Aura is decent, I just can't seem to get too excited by Saturn as a whole. There is to be a new small car, which is an Opel import and it looks sort of interesting. It is a hatchback. Perhaps the second coming for the hatch in America? Maybe not? As for the Aura, it offers more than most small FWD GM cars, as a reskinned G6, without that electric assist steering. Think of it as a more quiet, better steering, and different looking G6 with a Euro look. The world needed yet another FWD mid-sized car :confuse: Same shortage as SUVs. What is missing is sporty RWD cars and cars which look American ( or New American, as in let the designers make cool New cars ). Aura looks OK, but nothing is really new. Solstice and Sky are pretty cool looking. They lack in some ways. No roll bars and no trunks space, with harder to use drop tops. What happened to the coupes? Initial quality report - not promising.
-Loren

qbrozen

in person? no.

just videos (motorweek reviewed it a few weeks ago) and pics.

We obviously differ in taste because the only previous Sebring i thought was halfway decent looking was the coupe.

rockylee

NV, get ya a Buick Enclave, it's the Eddie Bauer Explorer you always wanted.

Rocky

P.S. I believe the tow rating is 5,000 lbs. If you need to tow more than that then get a full-size.

atlvibe

Those were good looking cars, unlike the bland more current cars by GM. Talk about understatement. Grand Prix anyone?

dill

There are many brands I would consider that fall under the umbrella of a manufacturer. I have no problem buying any brand under the GM corporate umbrella. There are vehicles of various makes of GM that I would not be interested in but I don't think their is even one brand within GM that I wouldn't consider buying at least one of their cars. I've owned Cadillacs, Buicks, Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs, Chevy, I've never owned a GMC not because they aren't good it just never panned out that way. I have owned a couple Chevy trucks and they have been great. I've never owned a Saturn and that is more a fact because Saturn vehicles generally are too small for my needs. I've never owned a Saab because I think they are too small generally and the other divisions offer vehicles that are more in tune with my lifestyle. Isuzu, I won't really seriously consider because they are rebadged Chevy's and if I want one of those I can easily go to my local chevy dealer and one. Hummer is too big and bulky with its H1 and H2. The H3 is more in tune to my lifestyle in terms of size but I have no problem with a Chevrolet truck and I'll save cash all at the same time with the Chevrolet. I can't get a Vauxhall or a Holden here in the US except if I get a Trans Am, and there isn't enough comfort or for that matter is just RWD so the traction up here in Connecticut is an issue in the wintertime.

nvbanker

Rocky: Get real will ya? I just took my tour with Tiger on the Enclave. It's a very nice minivan, with plenty of plood all over, and the seats look nice. No idea if anybody can sit in rows 2 & 3, but I'll bet yer [non-permissible content removed] row 3 will not accomodate adults like and Explorer. AND, for towing my toys, 5,000lbs is sufficient, but I can't see it handling as well as the Explorer. Plus, the FWD layout doesn't lend itself to hard labor...

FWIW, I have to like how a car looks. I don't like this (me too) minivan with 4 doors. I like the LaCrosse, hate the looks of the Lucerne, which was styled by the guy that did the last Caprice Roach. FGS, they could have at least put a similar butt on it as the LaCrosse, it doesn't even look like they tried for a taillight design, just blobbed 2 red things there.

Buick will not compete with the Explorer type vehicles. Chevy and GMC will.

nippononly

Autoweek just did a little piece on Enclave's twin, the Saturn Outlook. They did go to extra lengths to praise the third row seat, by far the roomiest they had ever seen in a crossover and room for real adults for road trips, or something to that effect.

This would be the right car for Buick's largest, if anyone still cared that there is a brand called Buick....

I like the look of the Outlook better...

ateixeira

I like the Outlook as well only because the Buick seems to have an acre of chrome on it. I do like the shape of the Buick, but I hate chrome and they really overdid it.

-juice

atlvibe

The next big battle to test consumer loyalty is the full size truck market. It makes me wonder who will win. GM with a new truck in the already in the market place. Followed by Toyota with a new Tundra coming out in Feb. from a brand new facility. Will it be Ford or Dodge both with pretty fresh updated trucks dumping suitcases full of rebate cash on the hood to win the race. Will new technology trump the deal? 2007 will be interesting in the full size truck market. As for me, oh yeah I'm gonna replace my 2006 model GM next year. Who will it be?

m1miata

Outlook and Outlander, perhaps a name change? The Mitsubishi name while not the same is close enough to cause confusion. Oh what the heck, it's all the same. Seen one SUV, you've seen them all. Must say the Murano is a fresh look. Wonder if Mitsubishi is around next year? Are they selling enough to keep the showroom doors open? At this point, that is what I would worry the most about the car is the lack of dealerships and those closing shop. The cars resale value would be another major concern. I owned a Stealth, which they made back when, and I would say it was not the same reliability as say a Honda or Toyota, and the parts cost more. The car itself was a beauty. Fun to drive though the seating and pedals ergonomics needed some working out. The rest of the car worked well performance wise. My guess is that they pull out of North America sales - what say you?
-Loren

m1miata

I am surely nothing close to a truck expert, so this perspective comes from a car owner. When I think of Chevy, I think of a pretty reliable truck (back when) with a tailgate that worked better than a Ford. Think of Ford, I am thinking that they represent a work truck, which construction workers and farmers over the years seemed to prefer. Dodge to me means style. They made a truck which actually stood out amongst the rest. A truck with a coolness factor. The Toyota Tundra means reliability and possibly the most up to date technology, to most people - well at least to me it does. So those are the images which come to mind. Chevy of course wants to be Americas truck, like the own the USA. Looks like they lean a lot over the years on patriotic ads. I am no truck expert, but I was under the impression that Ford was Americas truck. For my needs, I would buy a Tacoma, which seems the most logical buy out there. It has some style, good gas mileage and reliability. Oh yeah, it is inexpensive and not too big.

So I guess it is Ford to pull stumps, Dodge to race or look good in, or as a pretty good trailer puller with a diesel. Toyota for reliability. And then Chevy for those that do not like Fords. Oh what the heck, get a Titan, they look mean and have a big V8 = macho.
-Loren

nvbanker

The Enclave looks just like the Rendesvouz to me - I can't tell them apart with a microscope.... Aren't they both built on the minivan platform?

atlvibe

It's funny how people interpret things differently. I would have never thought of Dodge as cool, but now that you mention it... they are cool. You see alot of the trucks with chrome 20's from the factory. Pimp my Ram truck. Nissan for whatever reason would not register with me in the full size truck market. I know they are there, I can't or won't see them. Ford and Chevrolet do both come across equally as American. Chevrolet being flag waving, baseball playing,ode to the simpler life. Ford, true to the same but in a more utilitarian, honest working stiff way. Toyota still keeps coming back to the top of heap as far as new product, technology, reliability and re-sale. As far as my own choice it will down to pride and money. Pride being do I wanna be the new kid on the block with a brand new toy? Money being that the older product will yield the best deal because they( Ford and Dodge) will not willingly give up market share. To keep buyers in the fold Dodge and Ford will throw money on the hood. Emotion buys the new product, logic buys the older.

atlvibe

I think Rendezvous was built off the same platform as the Aztek. I'm not sure about the Enclave.

nvbanker

And Aztek was built off the Venture, Montana minivan platform..... I rest my case.

Look, crossovers have their place for soccer moms and stuff, but they're just AWD station wagons, a little taller, that's all. Real SUVs are workhorses that can tow all day without breaking a sweat, or a weld. That's all I'm saying, and other than the Ranier, Envoy, Trailblazer, Saab something, all the same, Buick has nothing to compete with an Explorer. Ranier is it.

lemko

...if you don't like the Enclave, you can still get that prestigious new Mercedes minivan - the R-Class. There's this dude with a black one I see at my local supermarket every time I'm there.

nippononly

And by that very token, Rainier is all wrong for the Buick brand. Saab too. GMC should have the only version of that vehicle, with maybe a Chevy as well. Volume in the truck-based SUV segment is going to shrink back to a trickle in the next decade as the car-based models take over as family transport, mark my words.

And the new Enclave is built on the stretched Epsilon platform, isn't it? I can't keep track of all the GM platform names, but it was either Epsilon or Theta that got stretched into this new platform for the larger crossovers. I think it's Epsilon, because that is the basis for Aura, and Outlook is basically the SUV version of the Aura, just like Highlander is the SUV version of Camry. I need 62vette to chime in here with some definitive answers...

There is no longer a minivan at GM (with the last of the current Craplander/Relay/Buick-whatevers to be built early next year), and the Enclave/Outlook is not on the last-gen/current minivan platform, so there you go.

I predict the R-class will be the shortest-lived model series in Mercedes history. And OMG, why on EARTH did they bother to come out with an AMG version of this model?

qbrozen

i dunno. I didn't like it previously, but at least it now has the distinction of being the only 6-passenger diesel CUV available in our market. Unless someone else comes up with a cheaper alternative, its in serious contention to be our next vehicle.

ateixeira

Outlook and Outlander

Don't forget Outback, which actually came first.

I've always said, Outback + Highlander = Outlander. Mitsu could not have been less original.

-juice

m1miata

They could have named the Aztec the Outrageous

-Loren

1racefan

"My guess is that they pull out of North America sales - what say you?"

Hard to say - I have heard for the past 4 years that they might pull out, but yet they remain.

The new Outlander seems to be a pretty nice vehicle (from the looks of it) - but, is it too little too late? Now that the Montero is no longer, I would bet the Endeavor becomes larger when it is re-done (especially now that the Outlander is available with a V-6, and is a little larger).

They also need to dump the Raider, and the pictures I am seeing of the next Lancer look pretty sharp. The EVO (next gen) should also be impressive, but the EVO isn't exactly a "volume" car like the Lancer and Galant could be. Speaking of the Galant...they need to give it a bit of a makeover, and refine it a little.

So, to sum up my answer to your question...I think that if their sales don't increase with the new Outlander, and with the new Lancer when it comes out (2008 model) - - and with the Galant when it gets redone (whenever that is), then that will pretty much be it for Mitsubishi in North America. However, I am thinking it would be 4-5 years before this happens anyway.

P.S. - If Mitsubishi really wants to get people to RUN bck into their dealerships, they should dump the V6 for the Eclipse, and instead offer a turbo 4 cyl and AWD combination to the GT model.

ateixeira

Rageous was another Pontiac, this concept:



-juice

m1miata

Me likes !!! In 1987 LA car show, they had a Buick Wildcat which was so cool. Truly modern sports car. Of course they never built it. Looks like GM still has some good concepts.
-Loren

ateixeira

I thought it was overdone. Back then it was characteristic of Pontiac, though, they were all into spoilers and such.

Here is the '85 Wild Cat:

nippononly

which way that Wild Cat is headed...

Mitsu doesn't have until the next Galant redo to pick things up. The dealers are wandering away. The new Lancer comes out in early spring, let's see if that does anything to reinvigorate sales. If not, I think they will become like Isuzu - a company that doesn't know it's dead in America.

Will there also be diesel versions of the ML and GL? I would go for either of those before the R-class, and don't they both have three rows? I forget.

rockylee

Wild Cat ? interesting name. Sounds like a vehicle the "Thundercats" would drive :P

Rocky

62vetteefp

Wow, I have tried not to get on this forum. Just too much time to waste!! I have been over at http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0f97f3/411 and I guess few of you are.

The Lamdas are a brand new large architecture and have nothing to do with the Epsilon. Epsilon was developed in Europe and the Lamda here in the US. It is probably the bigest FWD Architecture in the world now. It is MUCH bigger than the Epsilon arch.

The reason the Rainier was at Buick is because about 40% of Buick dealers were standalone 5 years ago and they were getting hammered because they did not have a truck and 50% of the market was trucks. Now that number of standalones is closer to 25% and GM has warned them long enough to triple up with GMC/Pontiac and no longer feel they need to support the standalones as much. And the Enclave will replace that market much nicer for Buick.