What Keeps You Loyal To A Brand?

62vetteefp

Hey, how do you post pics?

62vetteefp

Crossovers are for families with kids. Or for youngsters who want to carry stuff like boards or seniors that travel and want to carry stuff, like to Florida in the winter. Or to middle agers who go to estate sales and might buy a dresser or, my, they seem to work for almost everyone. yea just a tall station wagon which is very useful, gets better gas mileage than the SUV with the smaller interiors.

I guess one group who may not buy are the 80 year old seniors that just go to church or the grocery store to buy a couple bags of groceries. And also the teenagers who just need a small sedan to get to school. And then there are those who want a sporty car. Of course they need a CUV/SUV for every day use.

rockylee

Top-10 not in any order

2008' Cadillac CTS

2008-2009' Lincoln MKS

2008' GMC Sierra Denali 2-mode hybrid pick-up

2008-2009' Holden-Pontiac Grand Prix "limited-edition" LS-7

2009'+ Buick Velite Convertible-"if its ever built"

2008' Saab 9-5-"depends on how good it is" ?

2009' Saab 9-3 Hard-Top Convertible-
"depends on how good it is" ?

2009' Acura TL w/SH-AWD and 6-speed manual

2009+ Acura RL with V8 or V10

2008-2009 Volvo S60R

These are off the top of my head..........

Rocky

explorerx4

'Wildcat' is a classic Buick name. :surprise:

explorerx4

based on my experience with saabs, it's how good the DEALER is. :sick:

rockylee

Classic ?

Why was that name ever used on a production car (Wildcat) ?

Rocky

rockylee

Well that can make or breaks most people's experience regardless of the brand.

Rocky

lilengineerboy

Crossovers are for families with kids.
I would say a station wagon or mini-van with actual usable space inside is a vehicle for families with kids.

m1miata

Wildcats
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/buick-wildcat/buick-wildcat-pictures.sht- ml

rockylee

Thank-you Loren, you car history professor.

Rocky

lilengineerboy

Wildcats were especially cool becuase some of them had bathroom scale speedometers. The little line stayed there while the drum behind it spun to the right speed or what not.
Its actually bad HMI, but it was so novel at the time it was kind of cool.

m1miata

You will also recall those years of wild looking Rivieras and really classy looking Rivieras. While the current models are OK, they are unfortunately just OK. Think of the earliest years of classic Buicks as the doctors cars, and upward status. Work of art autos. As years went by Buicks still had loads of class. Then there were a few performance cars sprinkled into the mix. Family had a '61 LeSabre and it was pretty solid. Sure, later years there was the Grand National, but over time most of the Buick line became just another rebadged GM car, which is sad. Will Buick recover? With only a couple cars, some may suppose they are letting go of this once important part of GM.

Hope everyone has the opportunity to enjoy a fine auto museum such as the National Auto Museum in Reno, or the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas. Note some of that collection at Laughlin's Riverside Hotel is always on display. Most larger museums will have the early year Buicks. Wow, what work went into making of those cars. I bet those earl year owners were loyal to the brand. Fast forward to today, and you see so-so generic cars. Like an owner of an MKZ is going to be as proud an owner as one which owned a Lincoln of real status. Not to say it is bad car, but likewise so is a Milan - Mercury for thousands less. Does it have a powerful V8 and size -- well no. I think Cadillac has a somewhat better grip on what is luxury. No, perhaps still a little rough here or there, but they are not re-badged models. Thank goodness for no more Cimerrons / Cavaliers. At least Cadillac was saved. The Escalade is not something I admire, yet I realize they had to make some extra bucks for the dealers and to keep the factories running. What next, a sports car company building SUVs -- of crap, that happened too.
-Loren

nvbanker

You are too young to remember the fabulous Buick Wildcat built in the 60's. Back when Buick was a great brand, and built great cars.

62vetteefp

Crossovers are for families with kids.
I would say a station wagon or mini-van with actual usable space inside is a vehicle for families with kids.

You need to get yourself inside a Lamda or even an old Rendezvous. As far as a station wagon it beats it hands down in every area except maybe MPG. Perhaps handling even though the new Lamdas are amazing. As far as Minivans the Lamdas are darn close on the interior and do not have the stigma of a minivan. Even Toyota says that Minivans are a dieing breed. Others have also come out with crossovers that will quickly steal sales from Minivans. these are 7/8 passenger haulers with comfortable seating that folds flat.

62vetteefp

Unlike some crossovers, the 2007 Saturn Outlook, which is already on sale, is not based on an existing car, truck or minivan platform. Instead General Motors used its brand-new Lambda unibody platform to underpin the Outlook and its two sister trucks, the 2008 GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave. from Edmunds

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=118803

nippononly

I think it's amazing that stigma alone could kill a segment that represents such versatility and maximum utility in a driver-friendly package, with decent handling and fuel economy for such a large vehicle. Yes, I'm talking about minivans.

I appreciate why people have moved from truck-based SUVs to crossovers - the potential advantages are large - but they could have just gone back to minivans and saved everyone a lot of trouble. The most popular LWB minivans today still offer more capacity and interior versatility than the very best of the new crossovers, on which list I would place the Outlook/Enclave from what I have seen so far.

I find myself actually a little excited for the revitalization of the Saturn brand, which was my very first totally new car in my life. :-)
Now I just need them to produce a new model that is contoured to my needs (the new Astra MAY fit the bill next year, if it isn't too big), and I may well make my next car a Saturn again. The dealers really do live up to that rep you hear so much about.

m1miata

Yes, minivan was / is a brilliant idea for a practical transporter.

Saturn is going to bring over the Opel, and it looks pretty good. Do you like the hatchback cars? A bit more road noise. I should know, as right now I am back into one - the PT. Also consider the Volvo C-30 which really - really does look cool. A hatch, with a turbo and a 0-60 just above the 6 sec. It has the retro trapezoid rear window. You have to want a hatch though, and I fear the price will get-away quickly on this one.
-Loren

nippononly

Yes, I am a huge hatchback fan, despite the increased road noise one usually experiences vs a traditional sedan. I am in a small sedan for my commute car right now, the first one in many years, and I just don't like it. The car is perfect for its designated mission in every way, except it's not a hatch. :-(

I prefer the looks and additional cargo/passenger versatility of a hatch over a sedan.

As far as the announced Saturn Astra, I will add one thing to temper my Saturn enthusiasm: it MUST have superlative fuel economy. I just won't settle for anything less these days. Most of the domestic small cars are so totally underwhelming in their fuel economy that I just can't put them on a list of potential purchases. If this thing ends up carrying GM's standard 4-cyl Ecotec with a rating of like 25/32, that won't be high enough.

Actually, to be totally on topic here, one of the things that has kept me in Toyota/Hondas these last six or seven years is that those seem to be the only two really committed to delivering high fuel economy, and no, I'm not talking about hybrids. I don't care much for any of the current Toy/Hon hybrids.

dino001

I think rumours about death of a minivan are greatly excaggerated. Before minivan, a mid-size truck SUV will probably go (Explorer, Trailblazer and such). What I can see is minivans going really towards "mini" rather than "van" - perhaps some Euro/Asian transplants.

I think we are wittnessing fracturing the market the same way it is in the rest of the world. "Regular" vehicles will have fuel economy as one of the primary concerns (real ones) and the lux/performance/upscale will not. The ones to be chopped are all those in the middle: two crude and simple for rich people, but too expensive to operate for regular people. Nobody cared about MPG of Explorer, Trailblazer, Tahoe, or large minivans in 90s. Today Escalade buyers still don't, but those who bought '99 Explorer will likely be willing to sacrifice something: either towing capacity, or cargo space, or acceleration.

ateixeira

The only wagons left aren't that big, and none have a comfortable 3rd row (Volvo offers a pretty lame one).

-juice

dino001

So perhaps 3rd row is overrated?

ateixeira

The one in the Outlook isn't, it looks like it could accomodate an adult quite comfortably.

-juice

lilengineerboy

You need to get yourself inside a Lamda or even an old Rendezvous. As far as a station wagon it beats it hands down in every area except maybe MPG. Perhaps handling even though the new Lamdas are amazing. As far as Minivans the Lamdas are darn close on the interior and do not have the stigma of a minivan. Even Toyota says that Minivans are a dieing breed. Others have also come out with crossovers that will quickly steal sales from Minivans. these are 7/8 passenger haulers with comfortable seating that folds flat.

I think it depends how big your kids are. My neighbors (2 under 5)ditched their Rendezvous for a Town and Country, and my co-workers dumped a Trail Blazer (2 under 3)and a Liberty (1) each for a Town and Country. My other co-worker dumped an Expedition (1 and 1 under construction) for a Pacifica and complains he wished he got a minivan. Everyone else with little ones already had a minivan.
They all complain how hard it is to load and unload the baby in a car seat in an SUV or crossover. They all seem to really enjoy the sliding door when loading and unloading the baby in tight spaces (condo garage, grocery store lot with a car parked next to you...places where you can't open a conventional door all the way).
As far as being loyal to a brand, DC got 3 conquest sales so far for making a good minivan (the Oddessy is another well represented "wife's car" at work).

andre1969

Actually, to be totally on topic here, one of the things that has kept me in Toyota/Hondas these last six or seven years is that those seem to be the only two really committed to delivering high fuel economy

That's the main thing that would probably make me choose a Toyota or Honda if I were ever to get a small car, the fuel economy. If I'm going to settle for something that only gets an EPA of 25/32 then hell, I might as well just go buy a midsized or semi-large car that can get around 20/30 and just be done with it!

Living and working out in the suburbs/boonies, a small, nimble size really isn't that much of a bonus point for me. Heck, I could probably do without "reverse" if I really had to! :P

qbrozen

Geesh, you should tell them to try putting the kid in a sedan. Believe me, loading ours in the Pacifica is a sheer joy next to getting him in and out of my Accord.

andre1969

I think one of the worst experiences I ever had was trying to put a child seat in the back of a '68 Dart hardtop. Although part of the problem was that the seatbelts had been stuffed down under the seat probably decades before, so we had to pull the seat out to get to them. At least it was just the type that pops out...some of them are bolted in. Still, it took some turning and twisting to get it in there, and we ended up ripping the headliner in the process. :mad:

Actually, now that I think about it, that was my only experience with messing with a car seat. It was my ex-wife's cousin's kid. I remember my 2000 Intrepid being recalled because they forgot to put car seat installation info in the owner's manual. Thankfully though, they just mailed it with the recall, instead of making me bring the car in. :P

lilengineerboy

I find the relative height of the wife as a key factor. One of my buddies has a wife who is 5'10" and they have a CR-V for a family vehicle (AWD, 5spd, btw ) They have 2 under 5 and are talking about Oddessy and Sienna. Those vans aren't mini though.
When I was little my folks had a domestic midsized coupe and it seemed to hold everything and everyone fine. Then they got a k-car wagon which was fine (size wise) until my brother and I were in HS.
I guess we will find out, but I don't see how a 12 lb kid with a 15 lb car seat, a 30 lb diaper bag and a 15 stroller can require all that much space.

nippononly

The Autoweek folks took a 300-mile road trip in the Outlook with adults in the third row and pronounced it the most comfortable they had ever been in. They also said it was basically a discount competitor for the MDX, as it totally outshone other vehicles in its class like the Edge and Pilot. But here you go again, it begs the minivan comparison: the Odyssey and Sienna offer more space, the same power (with substantially less weight), and better gas mileage with a lower load floor and sliding doors for the same or less money, while the T&C offers an even bigger discount, with proportionally reduced power but all the other advantages intact.

As for the whole minivan debate, I have a friend with 2 kids under 4, and they regret almost daily that they didn't go for a minivan instead of their current Accord, when they have to load the kids in or move the car seats around to accomodate other people/cargo. I agree with others who have said that folks with families really like the sliding doors. For loading in tight spots, especially parking garages, they are very helpful, and they give you a large entry space with a high roof.

dino001

In this country it's never about what you need, it's all about what you want and the marketing gurus made sure to convince you that it is, in fact, what you need.

We need very little. We want a lot. We get big stuff because we can and it's convenient, and it used to be cheap to use.

62vetteefp

Sliding doors are nice. But once the kids are about 6 they just do not seem to be needed as much. I just went from a minivan to an SUV.

hey, it is Toyota who says the minivan days are numbered. who you gonna believe

ateixeira

The Ody doesn't offer AWD and the Sienna is tuned a bit soft.

I think that's OK for what is basically a family vehicle, but then again I own 2 cars (the other would be my Miata).

Every choice makes some compromises. I may cave and get a minivan, knowing I have a 2nd car to have fun in. The clincher is the cargo space - a Sienna can pack in more stuff than a Suburban or Expedition EL despite feeling about half the size of those giants.

-juice

qbrozen

I find the relative height of the wife as a key factor.

What exactly do you mean? The wife's height relative to the husband? Or relative to the vehicle? And how does it apply (meaning, does a short wife want the van or suv)?

I'm 6'5" and my wife is 5'4". I want the minivan, but she doesn't. However, you would think it should be the opposite since its to my benefit to have the CUV since its higher up and easier for me to use. *shrug*

She doesn't think of the practical side of things, though. Like alot of CUV drivers, she fears the stigma attached to the minivan. (yet i can't seem to get her to see there is a stigma attached to the cuv, as well.)

oh.... loyalty to a brand?? hmmm... well, whoever offers up a diesel 6- or 7-passenger CUV 21 months from now wins a visit from us.
[i feel like i've probably said that a dozen times around here, though]

rockylee

I agree....I wasn't born until 78' so I have a limited understanding of cars before my time.

Rocky

nvbanker

Geesh, you should tell them to try putting the kid in a sedan. Believe me, loading ours in the Pacifica is a sheer joy next to getting him in and out of my Accord.

AMEN, brother:!! AMEN. I think that has contributed to the fascination with the SUV - it's high, and much easier to load kids in and out of than a small sedan.

nvbanker

Unlike some crossovers, the 2007 Saturn Outlook, which is already on sale, is not based on an existing car, truck or minivan platform. Instead General Motors used its brand-new Lambda unibody platform to underpin the Outlook and its two sister trucks, the 2008 GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave.

Hey, stop calling them trucks! There's nothing whatsoever about them that could be remotely defined as a truck. Minivans, yes, but not trucks.

m1miata

Wow, I was driving an Olds Starfire back in 1978. You were born into the age of Japan dominance of the US car market. Well, I guess a Mustang or Corvette was pretty cool around 1994 when you were about to enter the driving world. I bet the Dodge Stealth was still popular. Oh yeah, and a Camaro or 300ZX would have been cool. But cars like an Olds. 442, or a Malibu SS of '68 were pretty much antiques by your era. And GM throwing out junk like the Berretta. Buying the Olds. Starfire with a stick and clutch like a truck was not a very smart move by me at the time. Yeah, ordered the car with no test drive. Oh well, it got me everywhere, and even to Las Vegas, in a car without air conditioning. Yeah, another smart move on my part. I should have bought a Z back then and in the long run it would have been thousands less. In six to seven years, the car was a $300 piece of GM. But like I said before, I still had fun. My '73 Opel Manta Rallye would have been super, but the motor was sick. It died early on, and became a trade-in. Yeah, for the Starfire. Out of the frying pan, and into the fire. Next car was a used Datsun 510 - I think it was an '80 or maybe an '81 and it was perfect, as in one little fuse burning out, one head lamp and one clip that holds the hood rod breaking (32 cent part) oh yeah, headlamp was $17. Very slow car, and a very light weight steel car, so I would not say it was safe to drive in that respect. But the car looked new years later and the engine never used oil and was so quiet for a four banger.
-Loren

62vetteefp

Unlike some crossovers, the 2007 Saturn Outlook, which is already on sale, is not based on an existing car, truck or minivan platform. Instead General Motors used its brand-new Lambda unibody platform to underpin the Outlook and its two sister trucks, the 2008 GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave.

Hey, stop calling them trucks! There's nothing whatsoever about them that could be remotely defined as a truck. Minivans, yes, but not trucks.

Not my words, Edmunds, and I think you are wrong. Most will think since it looks like a truck it is a truck. Few no what the heck a "CUV" or crossover is. It looks like a car or it looks like a truck.

nvbanker

I was driving a Ford Pinto Wagon in 1978.... and back then, if you stacked it up to a Corolla, the Pinto was a luxury car! The interior was of good quality cloth & vinyl, it had carpeting, and a factory 8-track/AM radio combo in it, and it drove, rode and handled so much better.

By contrast, the Corolla had plastics in it that would warp, buckle and crack in 1 hot summer here. The upholstery just came apart in the heat. The body was tinny, the interior was butt -ugly, with black being the only dash color available, and it was just ultimately functional. Nothing appealing about it at all. The paint would fade away in 2 years. The only appealing thing was the motor. The Pinto would do ok, but the Corolla would run and run and run until the body rusted away, which in the desert was not a problem. The little engine never needed anything. The Pinto needed repairs from time to time.

Times, things and Japanese cars have changed a lot since then.

62vetteefp

For the first time since its 1989 debut, the Mazda MX-5 Miata is not America's top selling roadster. According to Automotive News, the Pontiac Solstice has a significant lead over Mazda's popular two-seater in 2006.

In the first eleven months of the year, GM sold 18,361 Solstices, compared with 15,873 Miatas. What's more, that figure doesn't include the Sky, which is virtually the same vehicle, sold under GM's Saturn brand. Both are brand new, one is a domestic and one is a vaunted japanese car. Reports all show that the base Solstice is pretty much outhandled and powered by the MX-5.

m1miata

Not to mention the top is harder to use than the Miata. There is no usable trunk with the Solstice, it has not so stellar initial quality reports, and there is no roll bar. Yeah, I want a drop top without a roll bar. The arm rest is unusable on the Solstice as its angle is wrong and the cut out doesn't go far enough to the back. As for the Miata, they failed to have a strong enough redesign to get new customers, and the seats are very narrow and thus too tight for American butts. I would like to see a larger version of both cars, in a coupe = hardtop.
-Loren

62vetteefp

So I guess just a better looking vehicle can get folks to jump shop to another brand?

dino001

Pretty much. Solstice/Sky is probably virtually all about looks, which is not as surprising as generally 2-seater market is mostly about. So good for them, at least there they found what the market was looking for.

m1miata

Very often, this is the case. A cool looking car or one with the correct image is well accepted. At one time, as you know, Body by Fisher, was the one to chase. GM was running on all cylinders back say pre-'73. I do realize they had some excellent selling years thereafter, but as the designs got more generic and they shared so many parts between the different branded lines of GM, a day finally arrived when Japan and Germany took over. The dual attack of build quality of Japan, and handling / sporty image of German cars hit like a one- two punch. Let's see, if GM or Ford was looking bland, why not buy the better resale, less repairs car of Japan. Or if German makes looked more sporty, drove better, and had a hip image, why by the now more bland GM or Ford car?

There is no logical reason to buy the Solstice. You sit down in it like a bathtub, no trunk, no roll bar, and well just a more primative car when compared to the Miata, yet do to style GM won. They finally have figured out that the element of style and image is important. I did own a '96 Miata, which is better styled than is the current car. My butt fit in the seat easier too. I did add the roll bar. Current Miata, BTW, has a roll protection of 2.5 time the weight of car for A pillar and 2 times weight of car for the protection bar, whatever so called. They do not call it a roll bar -- lawyers, no doubt!
-Loren

explorerx4

here you go:

buick wildcat

don't worry it was a ways before you were born.

rockylee

explorerx4,

Thanks for the link. It's not my cup of tea like most old cars but I'm sure many folks liked it. My favorite car designs are sleek like Acura TL's, Lincoln MKS, Cadillac CTS's. The lines have to flow smooth to give a classy, elegant, appearance. I'd say the acura brand does this much better than any other car brand thus is why Acura, is my favorite brand of choice when it comes to styling.

Speaking of Acura, I've been getting e-mails from a dealership begging me to give the Acura brand another chance. I'm thinking about it. If GM, doesn't build me a car I like and Lincoln ruins the MKS, perhaps I could see myself driving a TL by 2009' if it employs SH-AWD and keeps the 6-speed manual around with 320-330 hp.

We will see.....

Rocky

tlong

In the first eleven months of the year, GM sold 18,361 Solstices, compared with 15,873 Miatas. What's more, that figure doesn't include the Sky, which is virtually the same vehicle, sold under GM's Saturn brand. Both are brand new, one is a domestic and one is a vaunted japanese car. Reports all show that the base Solstice is pretty much outhandled and powered by the MX-5.

Well, I suspect it's because a) the Solstice is new and the Miata is old news; and b) the Solstice is a very sexy looking car.

However, did you read the long term results that Edmund's recently published? Not all that good. It will be interesting to see if the market share holds up, or if GM will continue to refine the vehicle.

explorerx4

when i see a TL coming at me, i think it is a Bonneville. my eyes are not as good as they used to be. i had already cast my first vote in a presidential election before you were born.

rockylee

i had already cast my first vote in a presidential election before you were born.

LOL, your not that old....

when i see a TL coming at me, i think it is a Bonneville. my eyes are not as good as they used to be.

TL, looking like a Bonneville ????? :surprise: Ummmmm, you need a stronger optical prescription. :P

Rocky

62vetteefp

Well, I suspect it's because a) the Solstice is new and the Miata is old news; and b) the Solstice is a very sexy looking car.
the "old" MX-5 came out a month or so after the Solstice. No doubt it is the sexy part.

explorerx4

reading these posts on edmunds has ruined my eyesight!