Maybe I am confused but what does Goodyear know about Firestone's defective tires. Maybe they can honestly say that their tires do not have problems when underinflated but they are not the ones with the bad design / rubber whatever.
I believe it was in an article in the Wall Street Journal that Goodyear came forward. They disputed Firestone's claim that the tires failed because they were at 26 psi rather than 30 psi. They said that a tire would have to be under inflated more than that to cause a tread separation. You're right though that it appears to be a very poor design.
Spoog for a comment like that you could get sued,Believe it or not these sites are read and monitored by all auto manufactures and a comment like that meant to intimadate people is a law suit waiting to happen.
Hey spoog, visited the Tundra room lately? Lots of complaints out of your perfect full size truck for shakes rattles and squeaks, LOL!! I thought all Toyota's were supposed to be perfect, not a one bad I thought. I also see Mitsu has admited to over 20 years of hiding defects and customer complaints, says its not uncommon for Japanese company to do. It reflects on their quality and workmanship and reputation.. Hmmm.......
yeah, i always knew those japanese covered up their mistakes. Ok, i know tacoma's only started in '95, i'm talking about all toyota small trucks. not just tacoma's. Go to some ranger web rings. I have seen rangers with all kinds of diffrent v8 swaps. Yes, most of them require a bit more modification then the 5.0, but there are alot that have been done. Check out JamesDuff.com they have all the parts needed for a 301v8 swap. explorer's and rangers share the same front twin traction beam IFS. what works on an explorer works on a ranger. if u haven't checked out the pic yet, i recommend u do. It's worth it.
What a shame. It's too bad you wasted all that on a vehicle that wasn't designed for ANY offroading in mind. Kind of like building a beautiful condo on a rickety old wooden foundation.
Edmunds also votes the Explorer "most likely to break".
What a waste man. Thats ok. You'll learn.
That Explorer will be a rattly, hunk of junk at 60k.
The "common" V8 conversion is to the 5.0 liter Ford. http://www.homestead.com/therangerstation/V8Conversions.html Your correct, others can be swapped, however, the Ranger already has about a 65/35 weight distribution advantage to the front, more weight would increase the instability of such a vehicle.
So, for Toyotas, what would be the "common" V8 conversion?
Did not read the article you cite, however, over and under inflation, combined with excessive heat could very well cause a tire to fail. Saw that happen a number of times one hot summer when I was on I15 near Barstow one July 4th weekend 7 years ago, temp was 115-125 degrees at the time. But I will not argue with you that the design is not the best as I have had Firestone tires, FR460's come apart rather fast when they flatten.
That is why I do not buy Firestone tires any longer.
Well, it has been a while since I posted at this site. A few years back while driving my 1992 Mark III Ford van at about 75 mph on an interstate the right front tire shredded and blew out. The right hub cab flew off hitting the car next to me and I had the hardest time controlling my van from turning right. The vehilce next to me was a family car and I saw the terror in the father's eyes. I managed to gain contol of my van and I replaced all 5 tires with Goodyear Wranglers. So to those that may think the problem is limited to Explorers and Rangers the Econoline and Mark III vans have the same problem.
Tire failures may cost Ford billions - will cost families even more Published: 23 August 2000 Date of revision: Source: See Footnotes By: Robert Lane, staff writer
"By the time all is said and done, including settling the many current suits that are pending, the total cost to Ford Motor Company could be in the billions, due to lost revenue as a result of the steep decline in consumer confidence regarding Firestone brand tires on Ford Motor Company products. However, the costs to families are even greater, as many have lost their loved ones due to the tire failures, and you can't put a value on the loss of a human life.
• Christy McKinney, 21 may suffer permanent disability from an August 11th accident in which her Ford Explorer flipped twice after the tread on a Firestone tire separated. Christy is still in the hospital.7
• Gary Hass, a heart surgeon was killed last week when the 1996 Ford Explorer he was riding in rolled three times after a Firestone's tire separated. 5
• Assistant Miami City Attorney Jose Amador Fernandez and his daughter were killed when their 1994 Explorer flipped several times after the left rear Firestone tire separated. His wife, Emma was also riding in the vehicle. She was unable to attend her husband and daughter's funeral because she was in a coma. 8
• A Brevard county, Florida pharmacist lost his wife and his daughter and became a paraplegic after an accident in October 1999 when a Firestone tire separated on his Ford Explorer. 4
Sympathy is a virtue the American public doesn't bestow upon a corporation when families are torn apart, as in this extremely volatile issue involving the failure of these tires that have led to over 60 deaths.
Ford Motor Company wants to ensure that consumers don't consider Ford Motor Company's SUV's to be a threat to their safety, especially since an all new 2002 Explorer has just been announced. But it's hard not to. Ford public affairs Wes Sherwood said "The clear message that we want to get out there is that the new Explorer has completely reengineered tires and the tires are designed specifically for this vehicle." 6 But, they do carry the Firestone Wilderness name on the side.
Ford Motor Company just announced the temporary closure of three plants to free up as many as 70,000 tires. Those also tires have the Firestone Wilderness name embossed on the sidewalls. So why, if consumer confidence is so low in these tires, does Ford insist on supplying the market with the same brand name? Simple economics.
Ford, literally has so much riding on these brand tires, the 2002 Explorer and many other current Ford products would see production halted because there simply isn't the supply to meet the demand if Ford were to drop Firestone and switch to a different tire manufacturer. Therefore, Ford Motor Company has no choice but to spend millions in a futile attempt to raise their consumers' confidence in the Firestone brand.
Ford sales analyst George Pipas added, "Without the strength of the Explorer brand, something like this could be a knockout punch." 6 But, according to the many studies of consumers regarding this Firestone fiasco, the punch has already landed.
An internal Ford Motor Company document obtained by lawyers suing the automaker and Firestone shows that Ford was originally going to use a higher tire pressure in the Firestone tires. However, Ford decided against it because the higher pressures increased the risk that Explorer sport utility vehicles using them would possibly roll over. 3 On the downside, a lower tire pressure generally places more strain on the tire and can often be attributed to early tire failure. When tires fail on a n SUV it's even more dangerous because they tend to roll over more often due to their high center of gravity.
Other benefits from Ford's side of utilizing a lower tire pressure include a softer ride and most importantly, shorter stopping distances of which Ford boasted the new 2002 Explorer as having the shortest stopping distance of all competitors.
The media won't let Ford wiggle out of this Firestone fiasco though. Jac Nasser set precedent when he exchanged Firestone tires on Ford SUV's in almost a dozen countries (Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Saudi Arabia, ect) in the interest of "customer satisfaction" when in reality, it was to prevent the American press from finding out about the failures of both 15" and 16" tires. But what he didn't do is follow the same policy of replacing the tires with North American consumers - and it's going to cost Ford Motor Company billions. Ford has been acting swiftly - but that's probably because 6.5 million suspect tires were fitted almost exclusively on Explorers, which have generated about $13 billion in sales, each of the last two years 1 and those sales generate almost $2 billion in profits each year, according to industry analysts.
Ford spokesman Ken Zino claims that the consumer watch dog groups and lawyers are "looking for more lawsuits; we're looking for solutions." 1 Zeno is correct in stating that many of the consumer interest groups are influenced by trial lawyers, but it's largely because of a companies negligent attitude and business practices. That is what keeps trial lawyers in business in the first place.
Ford's past reluctance to confront consumer issues has spawned class action suits against them concerning: 3.8L V6 head gaskets, 1999 Cobra engine horsepower misrepresentation, numerous Taurus transmission suits, flaming ignition switches, peeling paint and the list continues. While trial lawyers might be making money hand over fist, companies like Ford are feeding them with all of the ammunition they need. It is the trial lawyers who are making roads, highways, vehicles and all products safer for everyone. And it's the trial lawyers who are urging Firestone and Ford to recall all suspect tires regardless of where they were made or the size.
Currently Firestone is only recalling ATX, ATX II and the 235/75R-15 Wilderness tires manufactured in Decatur and Ford is standing by them, even though multiple deaths have already been reported to the U.S. Government due to tires not made in Decatur and regardless of size. The trial lawyers, in essence are doing what you paid Ford Motor Company to provide when you purchased their product and that is providing peace of mind and a safe vehicle.
Lawsuits against Ford are stating in their briefs, "Ford should have known or had reason to know that there was a problem with the tires. . ." - and they had a responsibility to address those concerns with consumers. After all, tire defects are nothing new to Ford Motor Company. Public Citizen's President and former U.S. Government NHTSA chief Joan Claybrook said "There were enough lawsuits that they (Ford) knew there was something seriously wrong." 1
Melbourne attorney Bert Childress explains how big business settles cases to avoid publicity "The settlement is kept confidential. It becomes a closed file. All the public record says is that the case is over." Settlements are great for companies like Ford Motor Company to maintain consumer confidence in their products, but it is horrible for consumers.
"Many deaths could have been avoided, If earlier lawsuits had not been settled and without any type of publicity. The problems have been kept out of the public eye, which is what makes this so tragic," said Childress 4."
Published: June 24, 2000 Date of revision: None By: James Brennan tech staff writer (Part four of a four part series)
" It seems that Ford Motor Company has trouble hitting their mark when it comes to their slogan "Quality is Job 1". The number of recalls per vehicle and overall reliability ratings appear to be moving in the wrong direction.
Ford owners everywhere are reluctant to convey confidence and satisfaction when discussing their car with friends, family and coworkers as of late. In fact, out of 32 car manufacturers worldwide, Ford has dropped to 28th place for overall customer satisfaction. One customer for every 400 vehicles sold is involved in an unresolved claim, meaning either there is no known repair for a problem they are experiencing, or they have become so frustrated that they wish to have their car bought back.
Saturn, by comparison, has one unresolved claim for every 14,000 vehicles sold. Despite these facts, Ford continues to be one of the largest car companies in the world. This can only mean that their engineers and product designers are second to none. To put it plainly, Ford makes several very appealing cars. Those responsible for the new and redesigned Fords that hit the showroom floors really have their finger on the pulse of the car buying public.
Since consumers often head straight for the Ford dealership when shopping for a car, then how is it possible that the customer satisfaction index continues to suffer? People buy cars to suit, or sometimes create their personality. The first symptom of the male mid-life crisis is the desire to get behind the wheel of a sports car. People nearly have love affairs with their cars, giving them names, garages at night, hand waxes on the weekends, and aftermarket accessories.
I have never known anyone to name a television, a pair of shoes, or even a home for that matter. Taking into account the emotion between a car and its owner, the auto industry has carved its own niche in the business world.
Those who hold high office at Ford Motor Company are excellent businessmen. Men like Jac Nassar, and Carl Bergman were brought in for their expertise in running big businesses. This is exactly the problem, because the auto industry is unique in the business world. Businessmen look at facts and figures much differently than what a "car person" would.
Someone who understands what a car means to a person is interested in selling a quality car for a reasonable price. A car person knows that a happy customer will return later to purchase another vehicle. They will use parts and assembly processes that will ensure a balance of reliability, performance, ergonomics, safety, and overall value.
A businessman, on the other hand, is inclined to ignore the big picture and look at today's facts. Once the design becomes a finished product and the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is determined, every cost cutting measure conceivable will be taken to increase the profit.
Replacing steel parts with aluminum and aluminum parts with plastic does indeed reduce vehicle weight and manufacturing cost. In moderation, the consequences are negligible, but when these steps are taken into practice on every part of the car, the whole vehicle suffers.
Car people are embarrassed when their product needs warranty repairs. They are willing to pay a fair price to the dealer for satisfying their customer. Businessmen look at what warranty repairs cost them and find another way around it.
Ford, rather than justify the extra revenue required to improve the quality of their parts, has chosen another route. After studying which repairs are the most common, they looked to Carl Bergman, Head of Parts and Service for the answer. His decision was to slash the warranty labor standards across the board, forcing the dealerships to help bear the burden.
Service staff and technicians have watched helplessly as their monthly incomes have slowly decreased. The result was a $70 million savings in warranty costs last year alone. Carl Bergman insisted that technicians are grossly overpaid. For his efforts, Mr. Bergman collected a $16 million bonus.
Unfortunately, these business practices do not translate well to the automotive world. Cutting corners in manufacturing procedures and warranty repairs only serves to aggravate the customer satisfaction problem. Rather than focus on one problem at a time, those who are running Ford Motor Company need to take a long hard look at the big picture. The public has definitely shown an unmatched level of enthusiasm for Ford's product line.
Sacrificing a few hundred dollars per vehicle at the factory will not only save thousands in warranty repairs, but will restore the pride of ownership that has been lacking lately in those who drive Fords. I am persuaded that Mr. Nassar, Mr. Bergman and the rest would be amazed at how thinking like "car people" could revolutionize the entire company."
If the bad tire choice makes ford a bad company, they still do 10 times more for the environment than any other company. There vehicles are like 75% recylcled stuff. They care much more about the planet then toyota.
50 tire failures? Do you never read the news or what? Just how old are some of the people that write in this forum? I've never seen so many misinformed people.
Seems like the tire problem gets more widespread every day. We'll just have to see what finally happens. All I know is that my wife has the damn Wilderness tires on her truck but are not on the current recall list. NBC news said that 1/3 of the known failures thus far are not currently involved in the recall. If they're not included soon, I'm going to have to replace tires with several more years of tread life just to be safe. Right now I won't let my wife take her truck on the Freeway but that can't go on forever.
Allknowing, don't like that huh? The second Japanese company to admit to faulty quality... Hmmm... and hiding defects... I got to wonder why I can't find a TSB or a recall anywhere about the Toyota headgasket problems.. I have searched and searched with nothing coming up.. Many people know this was a huge problem for Toyota why isn't it out on the net?? You keep on and keep on about how Japanese quality is the best, yet you fail to mention that Firestone is Japanese. Firestone and Ford are two seperate companies. Both however are taking a sever beating with this tire issue. Ford because it has the #1 selling SUV and has had the number one selling SUV for about 5 years! Numbers are killing Ford because they sold so many Explorers with these defective tires FROM Firestone. Granted, I knew when I bought my Ranger the Firestones were garbage. This is why I traded them asap because I do offroad and I knew they wouldn't last.. Yet I am still over 2K ahead than a comparably equipped (NON TRD) Tacoma. With the upgraded I have done to my Ranger...
Ford choosed the Firestone tires as OEM (original equipment from the manfacturer). Ford has known for a while there was a problem and did not take action.
I will send a letter to NHTSA about the incident with my Ford van that could have killed me and others.
Japan has lots of companies and many aren't too good just like here. Toyota and Nissan are two auto companies which happen to be Japanese that produce vehicles with quality far exceeding the American brands.
i have a 2000 taco 4x4 xtra cab and the front end has a shimmy and a serious vibration at highway speeds. the dealer just put a new rack on it and rotated the tires. all this did was made it worse. anybody have or had this problem, or anyone have any ideas. its been in the shop twice now for the same thing and its going back in the shop tuesday. i may have to use nevadas lemon law if the problem isnt fixed. theres only 6000 miles on my truck. any ideas would be helpful. scott
Make sure the dealer takes off all of the tires and individually balances them. Then, have them realign the front end. If that doesn't work, you've probably got a bad tire or something wrong in the front end.
Any idea how many deaths are caused each year by blown out tires. ALOT!!!! Only 60 of the who knows how many deaths in the past 10 years were possibly caused by firestone tires. Fact is, tires will fail. Any idea how many firestone tires lived their tread life without any problems. Alot!!!! Inflate a tire to 15 psi or 40 psi and drive down the freeway at 70mph. Chances are, it's gonna mess up. I have been in a couple cars that have had blowouts. I was not driving. Knowing how to handle a car with a blownout tire has alot to do wether or not you are going to crash and die. I bet several of the deaths caused by the tires were also caused by the fact that the person driving didn't know what to do when a blowout occurs. Anyways, the fault is obviously firestone's. $50 says that if toyota had the contract with firestone, the actions taken would have been the same or maybee even worse. They are very bad about admitting problems with their vehicles. Thehitcher, what do u mean "some of the biggest gas guzzlers"??? If u are comparing ford to toyota, yes, a big block v8 or v10 uses a little more gas then a wimpy baby v8 or v6. But in comparison, it gets better milage then dodge and about the same as chevy. What other auto makers are there to compete with??? Skibums3 proves that toyota's are not some "perfect, forever-lasting" trucks. It does not mean his truck sucks, it just proves that all vehicles have problems that need to be worked out.
skibums3, Probably out of round tires....this is something that Goodyear tires are sometimes guilty of, especially the wranger series. That's the stock tire that Chevy uses on their Z-71's and at my dealership we've had to have every single set that we've ever bought shaved. Eliminates the problem completely, this is sometimes the case with truck tires in general especially those over 32". I know everybody on this topic is going to jump on here and say the opposite but this has been MY experience with truck tires. It's not gospel and I'm not saying that Goodyear tires are bad at all(I do think though they wear verry fast - soft compound), just on man's experience.
The tires didn't have a blowout, they had complete tread separation. That rarely if ever happens to most types of tires. Ford has replaced Firestone tires on Explorers with Goodyear tires in I believe 8 countries because of the problem and has paid people off and settled out of court to cover the problem for years. Last I read there were close to 1,000 recorded incidents of tread separation with these tires and an unknown number that weren't recorded. The Explorer has more problems with these tires than other vehicles so the government is investigating Ford and Firestone regarding their prior knowledge of the problem and whether the tire is adequate for the Explorer's weight etc. I'd suggest that you read the news once in a while before you make an ignorant post and quit trying to defend the indefensible. Rest assured that if Toyota ever does something similar, the Toyota owners won't act like fanatics trying to defend the company as many here like you do.
I agree with your previous post, but I know that the Ford tire issues goes beyond the Explorer into the van segment. Ford is just posturing now due to the negative press and consumer groups publicity.
I still remember well when my tire on the Ford conversion van nearly killed me back some 4 years ago on I-390. I believe that Ford has known of the problem for a long time.
Only 100 deaths in fords??? come on, probably 10,000. Cause there's 10,000 times more fords on the road. I happen to have a friend with an explorer with firestone tires and the tires did blow out and when they looked at the tire, the tread was falling off. But try to tell me that this is fords fault. I still say that any car manufacture would have done exactly the same. Beides, ford probably has a 10 year contract with firestone and cant just all of a sudden switch tires. Maybee they did know about the problem earlier. But there was probably very little they could do about it. Thehitcher, i find your story a little hard to believe. Sure u had a blowout in a ford conversion van, but i think that u exaggerate it just a little. Anyways, lets try to get back to rangers and away from firestone tires. If not, why dosen't one of u just open a new topic about firestone tires and leave this room alone???
The ONLY time Ranger is stated in the very long post is here:
". . .with the idling this week of three Explorer and Ranger pickup truck assembly plants..."
You deleted 2 of my posts for being off topic. Post 480 is about 20 times as long as was my deleted posts. And it is OFF TOPIC. This is, to quote from the top of this page, a: "...Pickups Conference..."
NOT a forum to rip Ford, Firestone and Explorer's.
I was just going to post that most all of our parts that make up our vehicles aren't made by the auto manufacturer. If a wheel bearing goes out who do you blame? If your radiator cracks who do you blame? The only main items that the manufacture really does is puts all the 'pieces' together, if it's OEM and warranted by the auto manufacturer then it SHOULD be taken care of by the automaker. I'm looking in my Nissan manual in the warranty section and it says "Who is the warrantor: The warrantor of the tires supplied as original equipment on your new Nissan vehicle is the tire manufacturer or tire distributor of your specific tires. Nissan is NOT the warrantor of your original equipment tires. The warrantor for each of the tire brands which may be installed as original equipment on your new Nissan is listed below" It goes on to list: BFGoodrich, Bridgestone/Firestone, Continental General, Dunlop, Goodyear, Michelin, Toyo, Yokohama. So my point is that if the Ford manual says the same thing then the liability if off of Ford. They are really "taking care" of their customers by doing anything at all. Check the Toyota manual I'd be surprised to se that they say they cover tires under their warranty. The boat trailers I sell cover everything on the trailers EXCEPT the tires, those are covered by the tire manufacturer.
Might as well end the discussion of Firestone anyway. Several refuse to read the news and just make up their info anyway. Someone new might actually believe some of those posts.
The liability is there if they used a dangerous part or product on their vehicle knowing that it was dangerous. In this case, it appears that Ford has done that. We'll see what the Gov. comes up with in their investigation.
Hmmm from the same crowd that brought you forest fires equal to the size of the states of DE, MD, NJ due to mismangement with lack of road access to the burning areas?
Or perhaps the parent behind the Dept of Transportation and/or the National Transportation and Safety Administration that was SUPPOSE to TEST and EVALUATE these tires prior to deployment for use?!?
Look for the ROOT cause of the problem, not just the symptom.
This whole tire situation is an interesting look at our opinions and prejudices. Here's what I mean: as expected, the toyota guys take advantage of this opportunity to belittle ford, and the ford guys defend the company and blame japan for having created these tires. And the thing is, if the reverse situation happened (if toyota had a massive tire problem with one of its vehicles) we would see the ford guys jumping all over toyota, and the toy guys sticking up for their company. my point: we're all a bunch of lemmings!!!
We have to realize that, unfortunately, we're all a product of our out-of-control media. this tire recall is serious, no question about it. -but people are overreacting in a huge way. I'm a perfect example: I replaced my wilderness tires last week with some kick-[non-permissible content removed] 31" BFG AT's. (and my tires weren't even the recalled ones)
Did ford know about this problem years ago? probably. but did they act any differently than any other profit-driven corportation would have? nope. would we have done anything differently if we were Jac Nasser? nope. (we like to think that we would, but we wouldn't)
eagle69, I agree with what you say, I not 'ragging' on either brand but rather just stating that actually if it were Nissan then they wouldn't have to do anything at all. I imagine the manuals for the Ford and Toyotas are the same.
What do your manuals say? Anyway my point to the Toyota guys was that Ford or any of the other Manufacturers don't have to be responsible for the tires the disclosure about them NOT being covered under warranty releases them from that liability. However, if it's like allknowing says that the manufacturer KNEW about the danger(much like Ford - really Iaccoca knew about the Pinto..BTW it would have taken a $.78 part to fix that car in the '70's)then there would be a liability issue with Ford and Firestone. The real problem here is NONE of us REALLY know if Ford knew it was a danger. There were ONLY 60 deaths in ten years, not an alarming amount to catch the attention of Ford who is probably looking at many different things at once.
Understand I not trying to 'downplay' the number of deaths here because one death is TOO many in my opinion. I am just trying to say that I'm sure there's a research team at ford the investigates or researches alot of the accidents that their vehicles are in.
I own a Ford too my friend and I'm not too happy with Ford. I'd feel the same way if it were Toyota's problem so your general statement doesn't apply to all of us. What I do see is lots of Ford owners having difficulty accepting that Ford very likely screwed over a lot of people.
By the way, if you caught the ABC News story yesterday it had a women with a new Explorer that had several tires lose their tread. She took it to Firestone and they told her that they wouldn't help her because her tires weren't on the recall list. I think that it's obviously more widespread than covered in the recall so you're better off replacing them as you did. If they don't widen the recall soon I'll be doing the same.
eagle, how do you like the looks of a 31" tire on a Ranger? Tires make a huge difference on how your truck will perform offroad. I have been telling Ranger owners for years now all across the net to dump those damn Firejunkers and get some real offroad tires! I changed to a P265x75xR16 on my Ranger and it made a world of difference offroad. It also greatly improved ground clearance and truck stance and gave my Ranger a much more aggressive look. This tire thing will hurt Ford for a while. But this time next year people will forget all about it and the Explorer will continue to number 1 in sales.. It is amazing how the Toyota crowd beats up on Ford for a Firestone issue..
I guess I shouldn't generalize about how we all think. It just seems that most people here (myself included) tend to take sides too much. oh well. I suppose that's why it's called a debate! allknowing- yeah I'm ticked at ford too. but at least they shut down 3 ranger plants to help the tire recall. it's probably too little too late, but at least it's something. BTW, I'm keeping my wilderness AT's just in case they expand the recall. I have a feeling they might before all is said and done.
Vince8- Actually I have an Explorer not a ranger. but the 31" BFG KO's look AWESOME on it. probably the best all terrain tire out there for the money. i'd reccomend them to any explorer or ranger owner. -eagle
LINKS ONLY PLEASE... my fingers are tired of scrolling.. you are taking cutting and pasting to a new level.. you included stock performance in one of the last ones..
and just curious ... are the letters all worn off of you Ctrl and C keys
Comments
http://www.explorer4x4.com/zims.htm
Edmunds also votes the Explorer "most likely to break".
What a waste man. Thats ok. You'll learn.
That Explorer will be a rattly, hunk of junk at 60k.
Everyone learns sooner or later......
http://www.homestead.com/therangerstation/V8Conversions.html
Your correct, others can be swapped, however, the Ranger already has about a 65/35 weight distribution advantage to the front, more weight would increase the instability of such a vehicle.
So, for Toyotas, what would be the "common" V8 conversion?
That is why I do not buy Firestone tires any longer.
Hey, do you still have that Blue Oval report on Ford cutting corners? Please post it again if you have it. Thanks.
will cost families even more
Published: 23 August 2000
Date of revision:
Source: See Footnotes
By: Robert Lane, staff writer
"By the time all is said and done, including settling the many current suits that are pending, the total cost to Ford Motor Company could be in the billions, due to lost revenue as a result of the steep decline in consumer confidence regarding Firestone brand tires on Ford Motor Company products. However, the costs to families are even greater, as many have lost their loved ones due to the tire failures, and you can't put a value on the loss of a human life.
• Christy McKinney, 21 may suffer permanent disability from an August 11th accident in which her Ford Explorer flipped twice after the tread on a Firestone tire separated. Christy is still in the hospital.7
• Gary Hass, a heart surgeon was killed last week when the 1996 Ford Explorer he was riding in rolled three times after a Firestone's tire separated. 5
• Assistant Miami City Attorney Jose Amador Fernandez and his daughter were killed when their 1994 Explorer flipped several times after the left rear Firestone tire separated. His wife, Emma was also riding in the vehicle. She was unable to attend her husband and daughter's funeral because she was in a coma. 8
• A Brevard county, Florida pharmacist lost his wife and his daughter and became a paraplegic after an accident in October 1999 when a Firestone tire separated on his Ford Explorer. 4
Sympathy is a virtue the American public doesn't bestow upon a corporation when families are torn apart, as in this extremely volatile issue involving the failure of these tires that have led to over 60 deaths.
Ford Motor Company wants to ensure that consumers don't consider Ford Motor Company's SUV's to be a threat to their safety, especially since an all new 2002 Explorer has just been announced. But it's hard not to. Ford public affairs Wes Sherwood said "The clear message that we want to get out there is that the new Explorer has completely reengineered tires and the tires are designed specifically for this vehicle." 6 But, they do carry the Firestone Wilderness name on the side.
Ford Motor Company just announced the temporary closure of three plants to free up as many as 70,000 tires. Those also tires have the Firestone Wilderness name embossed on the sidewalls. So why, if consumer confidence is so low in these tires, does Ford insist on supplying the market with the same brand name? Simple economics.
Ford, literally has so much riding on these brand tires, the 2002 Explorer and many other current Ford products would see production halted because there simply isn't the supply to meet the demand if Ford were to drop Firestone and switch to a different tire manufacturer. Therefore, Ford Motor Company has no choice but to spend millions in a futile attempt to raise their consumers' confidence in the Firestone brand.
Ford sales analyst George Pipas added, "Without the strength of the Explorer brand, something like this could be a knockout punch." 6 But, according to the many studies of consumers regarding this Firestone fiasco, the punch has already landed.
An internal Ford Motor Company document obtained by lawyers suing the automaker and Firestone shows that Ford was originally going to use a higher tire pressure in the Firestone tires. However, Ford decided against it because the higher pressures increased the risk that Explorer sport utility vehicles using them would possibly roll over. 3 On the downside, a lower tire pressure generally places more strain on the tire and can often be attributed to early tire failure. When tires fail on a n SUV it's even more dangerous because they tend to roll over more often due to their high center of gravity.
Other benefits from Ford's side of utilizing a lower tire pressure include a softer ride and most importantly, shorter stopping distances of which Ford boasted the new 2002 Explorer as having the shortest stopping distance of all competitors.
The media won't let Ford wiggle out of this Firestone fiasco though. Jac Nasser set precedent when he exchanged Firestone tires on Ford SUV's in almost a dozen countries (Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Saudi Arabia, ect) in the interest of "customer satisfaction" when in reality, it was to prevent the American press from finding out about the failures of both 15" and 16" tires. But what he didn't do is follow the same policy of replacing the tires with North American consumers - and it's going to cost Ford Motor Company billions. Ford has been acting swiftly - but that's probably because 6.5 million suspect tires were fitted almost exclusively on Explorers, which have generated about $13 billion in sales, each of the last two years 1 and those sales generate almost $2 billion in profits each year, according to industry analysts.
Ford spokesman Ken Zino claims that the consumer watch dog groups and lawyers are "looking for more lawsuits; we're looking for solutions." 1 Zeno is correct in stating that many of the consumer interest groups are influenced by trial lawyers, but it's largely because of a companies negligent attitude and business practices. That is what keeps trial lawyers in business in the first place.
Ford's past reluctance to confront consumer issues has spawned class action suits against them concerning: 3.8L V6 head gaskets, 1999 Cobra engine horsepower misrepresentation, numerous Taurus transmission suits, flaming ignition switches, peeling paint and the list continues. While trial lawyers might be making money hand over fist, companies like Ford are feeding them with all of the ammunition they need. It is the trial lawyers who are making roads, highways, vehicles and all products safer for everyone. And it's the trial lawyers who are urging Firestone and Ford to recall all suspect tires regardless of where they were made or the size.
Currently Firestone is only recalling ATX, ATX II and the 235/75R-15 Wilderness tires manufactured in Decatur and Ford is standing by them, even though multiple deaths have already been reported to the U.S. Government due to tires not made in Decatur and regardless of size. The trial lawyers, in essence are doing what you paid Ford Motor Company to provide when you purchased their product and that is providing peace of mind and a safe vehicle.
Lawsuits against Ford are stating in their briefs, "Ford should have known or had reason to know that there was a problem with the tires. . ." - and they had a responsibility to address those concerns with consumers. After all, tire defects are nothing new to Ford Motor Company. Public Citizen's President and former U.S. Government NHTSA chief Joan Claybrook said "There were enough lawsuits that they (Ford) knew there was something seriously wrong." 1
Melbourne attorney Bert Childress explains how big business settles cases to avoid publicity "The settlement is kept confidential. It becomes a closed file. All the public record says is that the case is over." Settlements are great for companies like Ford Motor Company to maintain consumer confidence in their products, but it is horrible for consumers.
"Many deaths could have been avoided, If earlier lawsuits had not been settled and without any type of publicity. The problems have been kept out of the public eye, which is what makes this so tragic," said Childress 4."
http://www.blueovalnews.com
Published: June 24, 2000
Date of revision: None
By: James Brennan tech staff writer
(Part four of a four part series)
" It seems that Ford Motor Company has trouble hitting their mark when it
comes to their slogan "Quality is Job 1". The number of recalls per vehicle
and overall reliability ratings appear to be moving in the wrong direction.
Ford owners everywhere are reluctant to convey confidence and satisfaction when discussing their car with friends, family and coworkers as of late. In fact, out of 32 car manufacturers worldwide, Ford has dropped to 28th place for overall customer satisfaction. One customer for every 400 vehicles sold is involved in an unresolved claim, meaning either there is no known repair for a problem they are experiencing, or they have become so frustrated that they wish to have their car bought back.
Saturn, by comparison, has one unresolved claim for every 14,000 vehicles sold. Despite these facts, Ford continues to be one of the largest car
companies in the world. This can only mean that their engineers and product
designers are second to none. To put it plainly, Ford makes several very
appealing cars. Those responsible for the new and redesigned Fords that hit the showroom floors really have their finger on the pulse of the car buying
public.
Since consumers often head straight for the Ford dealership when
shopping for a car, then how is it possible that the customer satisfaction
index continues to suffer? People buy cars to suit, or sometimes create their personality. The first symptom of the male mid-life crisis is the desire to get behind the wheel of a sports car. People nearly have love affairs with their cars, giving them names, garages at night, hand waxes on the weekends, and aftermarket accessories.
I have never known anyone to name a television, a pair of shoes, or even a home for that matter. Taking into account the emotion between a car
and its owner, the auto industry has carved its own niche in the business
world.
Those who hold high office at Ford Motor Company are excellent
businessmen. Men like Jac Nassar, and Carl Bergman were brought in for their expertise in running big businesses. This is exactly the problem, because the auto industry is unique in the business world. Businessmen look at facts and figures much differently than what a "car person" would.
Someone who understands what a car means to a person is interested in
selling a quality car for a reasonable price. A car person knows that a happy
customer will return later to purchase another vehicle. They will use parts
and assembly processes that will ensure a balance of reliability,
performance, ergonomics, safety, and overall value.
A businessman, on the other hand, is inclined to ignore the big picture
and look at today's facts. Once the design becomes a finished product and the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is determined, every cost cutting measure conceivable will be taken to increase the profit.
Replacing steel parts with aluminum and aluminum parts with plastic does indeed reduce vehicle weight and manufacturing cost. In moderation, the consequences are negligible, but when these steps are taken into practice on every part of the car, the whole vehicle suffers.
Car people are embarrassed when their product needs warranty repairs.
They are willing to pay a fair price to the dealer for satisfying their
customer. Businessmen look at what warranty repairs cost them and find
another way around it.
Ford, rather than justify the extra revenue required to improve the quality of their parts, has chosen another route. After studying which repairs are the most common, they looked to Carl Bergman, Head of Parts and Service for the answer. His decision was to slash the warranty labor standards across the board, forcing the dealerships to help bear the burden.
Service staff and technicians have watched helplessly as their monthly incomes have slowly decreased. The result was a $70 million savings in warranty costs last year alone. Carl Bergman insisted that technicians are grossly overpaid. For his efforts, Mr. Bergman collected a $16 million bonus.
Unfortunately, these business practices do not translate well to the
automotive world. Cutting corners in manufacturing procedures and warranty
repairs only serves to aggravate the customer satisfaction problem. Rather
than focus on one problem at a time, those who are running Ford Motor Company need to take a long hard look at the big picture. The public has definitely shown an unmatched level of enthusiasm for Ford's product line.
Sacrificing a few hundred dollars per vehicle at the factory will not only save thousands in warranty repairs, but will restore the pride of ownership that has been lacking lately in those who drive Fords. I am persuaded that Mr. Nassar, Mr. Bergman and the rest would be amazed at how thinking like "car people" could revolutionize the entire company."
Btw I was wondering if there was a good web site for sheet music.
I got to wonder why I can't find a TSB or a recall anywhere about the Toyota headgasket problems.. I have searched and searched with nothing coming up.. Many people know this was a huge problem for Toyota why isn't it out on the net??
You keep on and keep on about how Japanese quality is the best, yet you fail to mention that Firestone is Japanese. Firestone and Ford are two seperate companies. Both however are taking a sever beating with this tire issue. Ford because it has the #1 selling SUV and has had the number one selling SUV for about 5 years! Numbers are killing Ford because they sold so many Explorers with these defective tires FROM Firestone. Granted, I knew when I bought my Ranger the Firestones were garbage. This is why I traded them asap because I do offroad and I knew they wouldn't last.. Yet I am still over 2K ahead than a comparably equipped (NON TRD) Tacoma. With the upgraded I have done to my Ranger...
I will send a letter to NHTSA about the incident with my Ford van that could have killed me and others.
Probably out of round tires....this is something that Goodyear tires are sometimes guilty of, especially the wranger series. That's the stock tire that Chevy uses on their Z-71's and at my dealership we've had to have every single set that we've ever bought shaved. Eliminates the problem completely, this is sometimes the case with truck tires in general especially those over 32". I know everybody on this topic is going to jump on here and say the opposite but this has been MY experience with truck tires. It's not gospel and I'm not saying that Goodyear tires are bad at all(I do think though they wear verry fast - soft compound), just on man's experience.
I still remember well when my tire on the Ford conversion van nearly killed me back some 4 years ago on I-390. I believe that Ford has known of the problem for a long time.
". . .with the idling this week of three
Explorer and Ranger pickup truck assembly plants..."
You deleted 2 of my posts for being off topic. Post 480 is about 20 times as long as was my deleted posts. And it is OFF TOPIC. This is, to quote from the top of this page, a:
"...Pickups Conference..."
NOT a forum to rip Ford, Firestone and Explorer's.
Hmmm from the same crowd that brought you forest fires equal to the size of the states of DE, MD, NJ due to mismangement with lack of road access to the burning areas?
Or perhaps the parent behind the Dept of Transportation and/or the National Transportation and Safety Administration that was SUPPOSE to TEST and EVALUATE these tires prior to deployment for use?!?
Look for the ROOT cause of the problem, not just the symptom.
We have to realize that, unfortunately, we're all a product of our out-of-control media. this tire recall is serious, no question about it. -but people are overreacting in a huge way. I'm a perfect example: I replaced my wilderness tires last week with some kick-[non-permissible content removed] 31" BFG AT's. (and my tires weren't even the recalled ones)
Did ford know about this problem years ago? probably. but did they act any differently than any other profit-driven corportation would have? nope. would we have done anything differently if we were Jac Nasser? nope. (we like to think that we would, but we wouldn't)
anybody else agree with me on these thoughts?
I agree with what you say, I not 'ragging' on either brand but rather just stating that actually if it were Nissan then they wouldn't have to do anything at all. I imagine the manuals for the Ford and Toyotas are the same.
What do your manuals say? Anyway my point to the Toyota guys was that Ford or any of the other Manufacturers don't have to be responsible for the tires the disclosure about them NOT being covered under warranty releases them from that liability. However, if it's like allknowing says that the manufacturer KNEW about the danger(much like Ford - really Iaccoca knew about the Pinto..BTW it would have taken a $.78 part to fix that car in the '70's)then there would be a liability issue with Ford and Firestone. The real problem here is NONE of us REALLY know if Ford knew it was a danger. There were ONLY 60 deaths in ten years, not an alarming amount to catch the attention of Ford who is probably looking at many different things at once.
Understand I not trying to 'downplay' the number of deaths here because one death is TOO many in my opinion. I am just trying to say that I'm sure there's a research team at ford the investigates or researches alot of the accidents that their vehicles are in.
This tire thing will hurt Ford for a while. But this time next year people will forget all about it and the Explorer will continue to number 1 in sales.. It is amazing how the Toyota crowd beats up on Ford for a Firestone issue..
allknowing-
yeah I'm ticked at ford too. but at least they shut down 3 ranger plants to help the tire recall. it's probably too little too late, but at least it's something. BTW, I'm keeping my wilderness AT's just in case they expand the recall. I have a feeling they might before all is said and done.
Vince8-
Actually I have an Explorer not a ranger. but the 31" BFG KO's look AWESOME on it. probably the best all terrain tire out there for the money. i'd reccomend them to any explorer or ranger owner. -eagle
and just curious ... are the letters all worn off of you Ctrl and C keys