I could have ultimately afforded any truck I wanted. What's 5k on top of 25k? I decided to get the one that best fit the needs of my family and was the best value. That happened not to be a Toyota in my case, which comparably equipped (and still inadequate as a people mover), and reflecting a TRUE MARKET VALUE, was a few thousand more. For the lesser amount, I have a vehicle that can handle all MY needs, and was MY choice based on MY criteria. The money saved can be used to buy an extended warranty AND setup a safe investment/savings account to cover any desired/necessary upgrades/repairs.
Forget the category rating thing.....I should have seen the feedback on that coming!
New game: Of the posters here, what were (are) your most important factors for your purchase decision. I'll start first:
-comfortable family transport (two adults, two children, dog) -safety (a matter of perception, though bigger/longer wheelbase usually better) -ability to haul ATV and pop-up camper at the same time -reliability -on-road performance -off-road/all terrain capability (very limited need) -exterior beauty
I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you. Maybe it's because you're trying to put yourself in the same class as CP. He typically has something credible to say and you, in contrast, never seem to have anything credible to say. Anyway, I must have missed the post where you say I've claimed that Toyota's are perfect. I have said, however, that they lead the small trucks in quality. I will defend the Tacoma when people try to erroneously depict problems with the Tacoma but I don't think that every Tacoma is perfect. In a nutshell, the Tacoma in my opinion is the highest overall quality and best overall off road small truck. If you need larger size, or cost is a factor, or a larger interior etc., then the Tacoma may not be the best choice for you. Most of the small trucks are also generally much higher quality than cars from the same manufacturers. Just don't try to convince me that your truck is superior in the quality area as you can't support that with maintenance records or owners opinions.
When I got the Tacoma: Off road ability, quality, and looks were my main concern. With the Ranger: At the time price was more of a concern and the Ford was the best quality, in my opinion, for the money.
mahimahi - The Tacoma was only about $2000 more than an equivalent Ranger and I feel that it was well worth it. I've never met anyone that paid 30K for a Tacoma.
Make up your mind, in virtually every post you state that the Tacoma is overpriced, then when a Tacoma driver admits that the price difference is one of the reasons it does not sell as many as the domestics, you whine that they are insulting you. You cant have it both ways. Dont take everything so personally, it is a general statement. I dont get all emotional when someone says that Toyota owners are small minded people who need to be told what to do. That is a much bigger insult. The fact is the Tacoma is more expensive and that is going to put it out of many compact truck buyers' budgets.
I'd like to see the Ford and Chevy people going at it like they do at the races. How about the heated Hombre vs B4000 debate?
If you are going to tie Mitsubishi in with Toyota, then that must also reflect on Dodge. If you are digging on Japanese manufacturers, then does Mazda tarnish Fords reputation. Uh Oh, Chevy better cut it's ties with Toyota because of all these bad Japanese business practices?
First of all mv, Nobody's whining it was just astupid and unsupported statement made by Hulk66(which suprised me). You guys keep saying that nobody pays retail which may be true buy if the MSRP is higher then the price you will be working from is going to be higher. It's simple math,if a dealer is going to be taking say $4,000 off I'd rather it be off $24k than $28k. There was at least a $4000 difference between my Crew Cab and a comprable loaded Toyota...but the Toyota really never entered the picture(no 4-door model).Not because of it's price, but any educated buyer will look and say "what am I getting for the higher price?"
We need to start by defining what "decontenting" means. Its a design & manufacturing philosophy and methodology where a sub-assembly or vehicle is designed or re-designed with the minimum number of parts WITHOUT degrading the integrity of the sub-assembly or vehicle.
Decontenting results in significant cost reductions to the manufacturer: less design, less production and less labor to assemble. These cost reductions COULD be passed on to the consumer, or kept as additional profit. Toyota seems to have embraced decontenting with something close to a religous fervor, and they keep the savings.
The '95 Tacoma was Toyota'a first major decontenting project, followed by the Camry in '97. I no longer have the data I compiled on the '95 Tacoma, but you asked for some examples, so here's my best shot at remembering some:
1) The '95 Tacoma was advertised to weigh about 300-500 lbs LESS than the '94 truck. Some of this reduction was due to redesigned components, the rest to removal of parts. Weight reduction has very positive side effects of better gas mileage and better performance. Negative side effects could be a harsher ride and poorer ability to survive crashes.
2) The '89-'94 trucks offered more options and more levels of interior trim than the Tacoma. The SR5 package was a REAL upgrade in '89-'94, not just badging and a tachometer. TRD didn't exist then, so there was no TRD-type package.
3) Many small items like the number of door seals, insulation pads and cable clips were reduced. Could be one reason I feel the Tacoma is noisier than the earlier trucks.
4) Decontenting has continued on the Tacoma since '95. For example, the power antenna disappeared and the front bumper in now just a plastic shell.
5) As another (related) example, the 24-piece front bumper/grille assembly on the '96 Camry was reduced to about 7 pieces on the '97 Camry.
Decontenting does NOT equate to poor quality. Just cost savings to the manufacturer. It does beg the question of whether or not too much may have been removed in the interest of cost savings. IMHO, the answer is YES! I feel the Tacoma is not the equivalent of the earlier trucks and I feel I got a lot less truck for my money, but hey, that's just my opinion.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept my '89 truck rather than buy than damned '95 Tacoma. I had the '89 for six years without a single problem and it served my specific needs much better than either of my Tacomas. But that's not what you asked.
It just seems that some of the people who responsed to that comment got upset like they were being insulted when they have been throwing much more pointed insults left and right. If a statement like that does not pertain to you then ignore it. Have a good one.
"what am I getting for the higher price?"
Well in my case, the truck I wanted, plain and simple.
I see your point, however, my Tacoma seems much sturdier and more solid then my 88 does. Have you ever driven a pre 89 model? The doors are much heavier, and ride quality, as you have previously defined it has improved. If the Tacoma is de-contented then the 89-94 models were "contented" if you will, compared to the previous models. I also doubt that this trend is limited to Toyotas trucks.
You stated: "Rickc5, the limited is with the leather interior so your price comparison is false. Sure, with the leather you pay higher price but the dakota doesn't have leather."
FYI- The base limited comes with a cloth interior. Leather is an (expensive) option.
You stated: "Also the limited only comes in extended cab compared to the reg. cab you priced on the dakota. So if you compared the 2 vehicles with the reg. cab , the tacoma would be cheaper. Compare both with reg. cabs, the tacoma is cheaper."
If you READ my post again, you'll note that I stated I was comparing apples and oranges and I was only trying to jerk spoog's chain by showing him that indeed, a Tacoma COULD easily cost more than $5000 more than a Dakota. I was NOT attempting to compare similar trucks. You should be aware by now that if similar trucks were compared, the Tacoma would still have an MSRP of $2000-3000 more than Ranger, Frontier, etc. If not, just check the numbers here on Edmunds.
You stated: "If toyota was an american truck, i'm sure it would outsell the so-called big 3 hands down."
FYI- The Tacoma was designed in America by Americans and is built in America by Americans for Americans.
We owned an '86 before the '89 and I will completely agree with you that the Tacoma is a great improvement over the '84-'88 models. Again, in my opinion, the '89-94 trucks were the "high point" of Toyota trucks.
You're also correct that this de-contenting has not been limited to the Tacoma. The Camry was de-contented in '97 and again, I feel Toyota removed some of the character of the Camry that made the '92-'96 Camrys such great cars. The '92-96 Camrys were VERY close to the Lexus ES300. Not any more. That hasn't kept them from being the best selling car though.
Since the Tacoma was the first product line to be de-contented, perhaps Toyota applied some "lessons learned" to the Camry and other efforts since, and God willing, will allow them to do a better job with the next compact truck in a year or two.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't hate Toyotas. In fact, I bought ONLY Toyotas for many years and still drive a Lexus. I just feel that Toyota made some serious mistakes with the Tacoma and haven't really fixed them.
Every one of us wants the vehicle of our choice to be the best there is. The problem is that every vehicle purchased is an exercise in compromise. I did not buy my Dakota for its stellar reputaion. What I saw in looking at the Codge was a vehicle that was ahead of my current vehicle in fit and finish, had a good feel for me and acted like it could go the distance. I have always had great luck with the Ford pickups and would have loved to get a new Supercrew even though I am not enamored with the look. Price and size were the two main factors in my going to the Dakota. Do I have concerns about the long term reliability of my truck? Yes, but I would have the same concerns about any truck. Look at the complaints about the new Mercedes SUVs. It is not an absolute function of a manufacturer like spoog likes to think.
As the years go by, my vehicle will get loving care and little abuse. If it works as well as I expect, it will stay with me for a long time and I will mourn it when I trade it in. If it turns out to be more trouble than it is worth to keep, I will mourn the lost potential and move on.
The point to this, is that we all love our vehicles and will rightfully defend them. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the harder you insult a person's vehicle choice, the harder you denounce the person who bought it.
"It is because some people just can't afford the quality of the tacoma truck. So you bunch all settle for the less expensive ranger and the crappy dakota."
-I wonder if this is an example of that toyota arrogance I was talking about earlier??
Why can Dodge, Chevy, Ford owners come in here and proclaim their vehicle the best and insult and belittle Toyota trucks, Toyota truck owners, Toyota owners, and Japanese automobile owners but expect a higher level of respect in return? Why is arrogance from a Toyota owner any different then arrogance from anyone else in here? If I believe my truck is the best I will tell you so, this is a debate if you did not notice, so quit calling foul about abtract things like "arrogance" and debate. In every Forum I have ever seen involving Toyotas it turns into all against Toyota. What does that mean? I am curious why all are focused on Toyota.
I may not be a totally unbiased "observer", as I truly don't like the Tacoma, BUT it sure seems to me that the mud-slinging and belittling has surely been a two-way street on this and other Edmunds pickup forums. There are plenty examples of that and I even found myself alluding to one of the posters being a moron in a moment of weakness. I won't do that again.
IMHO, there sure seem to be some vocal Tacoma owners who really push the envelope of civility in stuffing their opinions down others' throats. it just might be possible that these "attitudes" cause some very negative reactions from the owners of non-Toyotas.
We all have specific opinions about the vehicles we choose and this forum should be about sharing these personal opinions rather than regurgitating the opinions of others (such as the media).
A little more civility, combined with PERSONAL experiences, rather than media quotes, could go a long way to make this forum a less adversarial arena.
why does it turn into a war against toyota? one word: spoog. And yes, using the argument that "my truck is better than yours because it's more expensive and therefore you can't afford it" IS arrogant. and stupid.
This is in reply to that comment in a previous post. Guess what where do you think the money ultimately ends up in Japan, where Toyota is Headquarted Duh!!!!!!!! It is still a Foreign Company!
The fun of debating is cunningly and intelligently turning what the opposing side has to say against them. Even if you can relate to or might agree with what they say to some extent, you never admit it. It is much more interesting that way in my opinion. Everything that can be said about this subject has been said a houndred times over in this and other forums. This is turning into Ranger vs Tacoma or one of the Tundra topics. Somebody please say something about another vehicle and stop concentrating on Tacoma.
Entering into this debate soon will be a completely new, totally redesigned Ranger. I read a small blurb about it and all the article said was that it would be a redesign for the 2001 model year. That was the first and only time I ever heard of it--have any of you read anything on this/ If so, where?
For what it's worth, I have no problem with anyone who chooses a truck for whatever the reasoning, except that if you can avoid foreign made vehicles I would encourage you to do so(This includes those "assembled" here). Not because of quality, poor design, etc. but because we're selling a piece of our country everytime we do it. I contend that every American citizen should consider his own role in making the economy of this country remain strong. IMHO, this is one of many ways we can do it.
Now, for my CHOICE: I own a 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 4x4 4.7L V8. Why? 1) Previous excellent experience with Dodge. 2) Price 3) It fits my purpose and budget. 4) No good competition as yet. The Ford SuperCrew is too big, too pricey, and underpowered for it's size. The Nissan Crew Cab is just to small and underpowered for my needs (If I don't fit in the back, I don't want it). The Ford Sport Trac is just plain ugly and doesn't offer a decent engine, plus the bed is even smaller.
Under what circumstance would I choose a foreign vehicle? When there is absolutely no decent American choice. I don't think this condition currently exists, however, since we have so many choices available in many categories.
What you CHOOSE is up to you. I just hope you'll consider my comments. BTW, I am not a UAW worker or a member of any other union. I am a white collar worker, conservative, and proudly 99% Republican. If you care about this country, you'd be one, too, and make the right CHOICES.
I am one that cares for this country,and have proudly served this country for the last 23yrs.I am a democrat.The right choice for me was a Nissan CC.It fits my needs. Your statement about "buy" here,might be a little erroneous.The trend seems to be in the opposite direction.Nissan,Toyota among others are the ones that have invested in our people and country by building their vehicles here.The "Big 3" are having more and more of their parts manufactured out of this country as well as some vehicles.They are the ones who have not continued to invest here.
My point is,From what I read about Japanese quality, but yet they own a tire company that makes defective tires,Don't you think they'd have quality checks at their plants as you foreign truck drivers beleieve that they're quality is the best.Some quality there.BTW check out the Taco's little sister the Tundra at www.tundrasolutions.com more problems there than there are people in China.
You sure seem to have a thing against Japanese business. Anyway, in response to your post, I don't recall anyone here claiming that all Japanese businesses have great quality. The Japanese have bad and good quality companies just like U.S. companies.
You made the choice that's right for you, as I did . That's great and I salute you. I am aware of some of the things you speak of about the big three, but I still say that the American content of parts is on average considerably higher in Big three vehicles. Also, the majority of profits of the foreign companies goes to the foreign company, not the American worker. This is my only contention. It's still your choice(right or wrong), just as it is for you to be a democrat. That's the great thing about this country. Enjoy your vehicle.
You can read a review of the 2001 Ranger right here at Edmund's. I'm not sure I would call the 2001 a complete redesign. It is an improvement. The biggest changes are the addition of the 4.0L SOHC V6, standard 4 wheel ABS, a "freshened" exterior, and I believe changes to the rear suspension (additional leaf spring?).
"In every Forum I have ever seen involving Toyotas it turns into all against Toyota. What does that mean? I am curious why all are focused on Toyota"
When you at the top of the mountain, everyone will try to take shots at you. Thats the answer.
When it comes to a reliable, durable, and offroad designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
OF course Jeep makes a very, very mean stock offroader, but their quality and reliability isn't up to Toyota standards.
When you plunk down 20k for a Toyota Tacoma, you know your getting a fine tuned MACHINE that will last you a decade without any major headaches.
This isn't some product just slapped together. Ever read Edmunds reviews of Toyota vehicles? They are always blown away by the superior fit and finish of these vehicles. No crooked door panels, no loose seals, ect.
And in the 4x4 world, Toyota dominates.
Best full size SUV for offroading? Land Cruiser
Best offroading compact pickup? Tacoma
Best offroading mid size SUV? 4runner and Jeep grand cherokee, Jeep cherokee classic.
If you look at the JD powers long term survey, you will see that toyota ALSO leads in quality and reliability in every truck category. This is a FIVE year test gang.
Every single trade magazine for the past 20 years has rated Toyota trucks as the most reliable and best built pickups, BAR NONE.
You translate this with offroading, and you have one fine, EXPERTLY designed, EXPERTLY built tool with which to utilize on the trails or on the roads in our suburbs.
NO offense, but a Ford Ranger with 50k miles starts feeling very week. It rattles, it pulls, it shakes, bl blah(read the edmunds long term ranger test and look at all the issues in just 3ok miles!).
A Tacoma at 100k feels like most rigs with 4o k, simple as that.
Why do people pay more money for a Porsche when they can just get a Mustang for50 grand less?
When it comes to a reliable, durable, and offroad designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
If you are going to make a broad all encompassing statement like that,then you are WRONG.Land Rover,and Hummer will out perform Toyota off road without even trying.I do not think Toyota can go up a 31" verticle wall.
Now that i have stirred the pot a little, i just wanted to liven things up in here. The firestone issue is a dead topic now. I love feedback! If all trucks were perfect there would be no service garages. (RICKC5) I still disagree with you on prices. Last time i was pricing trucks, both the ranger and the tacoma 4x4 reg. cab came about the same price without any rebates. BUT 1 THING different was the ranger had the v6 in it compared to the tacoma 4 cylinder. So actually if you get the v-6 in the ranger they cost the same. I never try to be arrogant but i value everyones opinion. I learned not to take anything personal in these forums.
If all the brand new trucks; tacoma ,ranger, dakota, s-10, frontier, b-series mazda, if they were all the same price and same features which would you buy?????? survey sez??????????????
That would be an incredibly difficult choice to make between the Dakota, Ranger, and Tacoma.
I'd mightend up with a Dakota 4x4 with the 4.7L V8 ext-cab with every option known to man.
But... The '01 Ranger looks awfully tempting, especially that great new premium off-road package.
Oh wait! The Ranger is up for a complete redesign in '02. Maybe that truck will take the cake.
I can't forget about the Nissan either. It's getting a supercharger for its 3.3L V6 this fall. It's the only truck I'd consider getting in a crew-cab. So, that truck might be the one.
A fully loaded TRD S/C 4x4 Tacoma would be fun too. But, aren't the Taco's getting a complete redesign in '02 too? Maybe I'd wait for one of those.
Damn! I just can't decide. It would take days of test driving them to let my subjective opinions take over to tell me which one to take. So, I guess I can't really answer the survey.
Will Ford build it? Probably not. Why is it that Dodge and Audi are the only companies that make a concept car, see that everyone loves it, and actually goes on to build it? I've never quite understood that.
Reg. Cab ...... Ranger or S-10 (prob. Ranger don't trust the Chevy Traany)
Extended Cab.... Taco
Crew Cab....... Nissan(As far as Dodge's size goes I'd just spend the extra for a full size)
I will say this though, even though I'm still a little scared of Dodge's reliablity, I'd be a damn IDIOT not to buy the Dodge for the same price as the rest of these trucks...as long as you give me the V-8
I really feel for the insurance companies and the many DMV's....they've got to classify it! What is it? I mean wasn't GM's Lumina(series) van ugly enough? Well they topped that! Leave it to GM. I wonder if I'm going to get in trouble discussing it on here...I know it's definately not a pickup but that's the only thing it seems to not be.
Published: June 24, 2000 Date of revision: None By: James Brennan tech staff writer (Part four of a four part series)
" It seems that Ford Motor Company has trouble hitting their mark when it comes to their slogan "Quality is Job 1". The number of recalls per vehicle and overall reliability ratings appear to be moving in the wrong direction.
Ford owners everywhere are reluctant to convey confidence and satisfaction when discussing their car with friends, family and coworkers as of late. In fact, out of 32 car manufacturers worldwide, Ford has dropped to 28th place for overall customer satisfaction. One customer for every 400 vehicles sold is involved in an unresolved claim, meaning either there is no known repair for a problem they are experiencing, or they have become so frustrated that they wish to have their car bought back.
Saturn, by comparison, has one unresolved claim for every 14,000 vehicles sold. Despite these facts, Ford continues to be one of the largest car companies in the world. This can only mean that their engineers and product designers are second to none. To put it plainly, Ford makes several very appealing cars. Those responsible for the new and redesigned Fords that hit the showroom floors really have their finger on the pulse of the car buying public.
Since consumers often head straight for the Ford dealership when shopping for a car, then how is it possible that the customer satisfaction index continues to suffer? People buy cars to suit, or sometimes create their personality. The first symptom of the male mid-life crisis is the desire to get behind the wheel of a sports car. People nearly have love affairs with their cars, giving them names, garages at night, hand waxes on the weekends, and aftermarket accessories.
I have never known anyone to name a television, a pair of shoes, or even a home for that matter. Taking into account the emotion between a car and its owner, the auto industry has carved its own niche in the business world.
Those who hold high office at Ford Motor Company are excellent businessmen. Men like Jac Nassar, and Carl Bergman were brought in for their expertise in running big businesses. This is exactly the problem, because the auto industry is unique in the business world. Businessmen look at facts and figures much differently than what a "car person" would.
Someone who understands what a car means to a person is interested in selling a quality car for a reasonable price. A car person knows that a happy customer will return later to purchase another vehicle. They will use parts and assembly processes that will ensure a balance of reliability, performance, ergonomics, safety, and overall value.
A businessman, on the other hand, is inclined to ignore the big picture and look at today's facts. Once the design becomes a finished product and the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is determined, every cost cutting measure conceivable will be taken to increase the profit.
Replacing steel parts with aluminum and aluminum parts with plastic does indeed reduce vehicle weight and manufacturing cost. In moderation, the consequences are negligible, but when these steps are taken into practice on every part of the car, the whole vehicle suffers.
Car people are embarrassed when their product needs warranty repairs. They are willing to pay a fair price to the dealer for satisfying their customer. Businessmen look at what warranty repairs cost them and find another way around it.
Ford, rather than justify the extra revenue required to improve the quality of their parts, has chosen another route. After studying which repairs are the most common, they looked to Carl Bergman, Head of Parts and Service for the answer. His decision was to slash the warranty labor standards across the board, forcing the dealerships to help bear the burden.
Service staff and technicians have watched helplessly as their monthly incomes have slowly decreased. The result was a $70 million savings in warranty costs last year alone. Carl Bergman insisted that technicians are grossly overpaid. For his efforts, Mr. Bergman collected a $16 million bonus.
Unfortunately, these business practices do not translate well to the automotive world. Cutting corners in manufacturing procedures and warranty repairs only serves to aggravate the customer satisfaction problem. Rather than focus on one problem at a time, those who are running Ford Motor Company need to take a long hard look at the big picture. The public has definitely shown an unmatched level of enthusiasm for Ford's product line.
Sacrificing a few hundred dollars per vehicle at the factory will not only save thousands in warranty repairs, but will restore the pride of ownership that has been lacking lately in those who drive Fords. I am persuaded that Mr. Nassar, Mr. Bergman and the rest would be amazed at how thinking like "car people" could revolutionize the entire company."
I would pick any truck except a Ford. Had Fords and all were shop ridden lemons. Yes I even had that Firestone tire failure that nearly killed me on the highway in my Mark III van.
BTW Rick I had the 89 and 99 Camry. The 1999 Camry was way better than the 89 in quality, ride, and build.
Don't let one person get to you guy. Ford has Vince8 which makes spoog seem mild. I don't like being on the defensive for Toyota all the time and I'd rather hear about the strong points of the other trucks than the constant attacks on each manufacturer. We all seem to get on the attack sometimes though and I guess we all should be a bit more easy going. I've been fed up several times and unfortunately can't say that I'm always a good example myself. I'm going to try and practice what I preach though.
I own a 96 Ford ranger XLT Extended Cab 4X4. It has the 4.0 V6 and the 265 15" tires and I have never considered it under powered and I live in Denver! It is probably one of the most rattle free vehicles I have ever owned and at 53,000+ miles performes like new. I have never done any serious off roading with it, but I do a lot of hauling. In my opinion the Toyota is the only other truck that can compare quality wise and over all is probably a better truck. What turned me off about the the Toyota was the price and the poor crash test ratings (they were the worst of anything I have seen tested for side impact). Would I buy another Ranger Yes. Would a buy a Toyota, mybe once they address the safety issue.
I think the Aztek is the best looking vehicle to come along since the Pacer.
I posted this in the Tacoma vs. Frontier room too.
Sorry about the long thread but since your're an avid Toyota fan I thought I would share my truck with you. In fact part of the reason I now own a Nissan is because of my Toyota. I first should tell you I owned the following truck from '92-'94.I have always liked the truck from '80-'83 the best of any of Toyota's years because of body style(which I think that the Tacoma closely resembles)and the solid axle. I traded a co worker my '86 Samuri 4x4 for it(I made out on this deal).Now the Toyota was in much worse condition than my Samuri by far alot of work went into it. Yeah, I loved mine and it worked awesome. While I was attending FSU I needed the timing chain replaced. Since I didn't have alot of $$$ I went to the cheapest guy in Tallahassee to replace it but,he didn't replace the oil pump gears and he couldn't seal the cover(timing) correctly so the motor was not only leaking alot of oil but it wasn't getting the oil around the engine properly. I must have driven around on that motor for about six months, revving it up at stop lights and stop signs to get the oil to the top of the motor. I finally saved up $600 to buy an '83 Celica engine to replace mine.I went this route because it was about $400 cheaper than a rebuild and I just wanted it to get me through college so after I graduated I could really do it right. I planned on keeping this '81 4x4 longbed forever. I had completely redone the interior new carpet, new dash, Mazda seats that flipped forward so I could get behind the seats.Anyway, I did the transplant of both engines: air cleaners, flipping the oil pan and so on. I really good friend of mine who happened to be one of the best mechanics in town let me use the back of his shop. He actually did the installation of the engine and I paid him about $200. But anyways I loved that truck. I even had new decals on order and they were coming from Japan. I had 33" tire with 15x10 rims and a 3" suspension lift(no blocks). The only complaint I had with the truck, and it was my fault because I didn't do the gear swap yet, was as 'bulletproof' as that engine was it was really weak(remember I had the 'R' not 'RE' no injection unfortunately) after I put the big tires on it. Engine mods were soon to come. But, now she's gone and I never got to finish her. Maybe one day I'll take on another but it'll have to be an '83 though I like the grills better and the transmission doesn't have welded gears on the input shaft(the '81 was the only year they did that, figures right? a you can tell I had the tranny rebuild after bearing failure)but these little guys are hard to find in stock condition. I used to love shopping for it. Every now and then I break out the pictures
Oh I was going to ask you remember the Turbo 22RE? i think they were in the '84 &'85's
Hi. I'm thinking of buying a pick-up. I now own a 90 mazda miata (which I still love). I'm a girl in my mid-twenties and I don't know much about trucks. I recently drove a Dodge Dakota as a rental when my car was in the shop, and I loved the way it felt! I don't want to spend ALOT of money, but I want something nice and not too big (I've been driving a match box for 10 years). Any suggestions? I'm a little leary of buying an American made vehicle.
I checked out your Aztek link. It is a pretty strange looking car. I don't know if it's uglier than the new Tacoma (if they really change the front grill as shown)though. The VW I was taking about was the "Thing", the jeep like car in the 70's. The first time I saw it I laughed but it grew on me.
allknowing, You know that Hitler used seveal of those 'things' in WWII. I actually drove one of those around after my Toyota was totaled. It was a friend of mine that had it and it was his second car for the weekends he had it totally resored....weird car or thing. LOL
jennifer, Welcome to the 'war'. If you don't have any truck 'experience' drive them all, you may go back to your first 'love' but at least you can compare them all. Are you looking for a 4x4 or 2wd or a 2wd that 'rides' like the 4x4(in hieght)? As for reilability IMHO their all close, the thing I remeber is the brands with the 'worse' reliablility ratings have the most dealerships meaning that there should always be one near . I've owned both domestic and foreign, they all have problems with something if it's not reliability then it's safety. My determination usually depends on the models available with their opitions at the time I'm shopping.
Comments
Forget the category rating thing.....I should have seen the feedback on that coming!
New game:
Of the posters here, what were (are) your most important factors for your purchase decision. I'll start first:
-comfortable family transport (two adults,
two children, dog)
-safety (a matter of perception, though
bigger/longer wheelbase usually better)
-ability to haul ATV and pop-up camper at
the same time
-reliability
-on-road performance
-off-road/all terrain capability (very
limited need)
-exterior beauty
I got a TRD tacoma for around 22k. I bought the supercharger and had it installed for around 25,ooo.
Thats ONE HECK of an equipped vehicle.
Anyone who pays MSRP for a vehicle other than a porshce or Ferrari hasn't done their homework.
With the Ranger: At the time price was more of a concern and the Ford was the best quality, in my opinion, for the money.
mahimahi - The Tacoma was only about $2000 more than an equivalent Ranger and I feel that it was well worth it. I've never met anyone that paid 30K for a Tacoma.
I'd like to see the Ford and Chevy people going at it like they do at the races. How about the heated Hombre vs B4000 debate?
If you are going to tie Mitsubishi in with Toyota, then that must also reflect on Dodge. If you are digging on Japanese manufacturers, then does Mazda tarnish Fords reputation. Uh Oh, Chevy better cut it's ties with Toyota because of all these bad Japanese business practices?
Nobody's whining it was just astupid and unsupported statement made by Hulk66(which suprised me). You guys keep saying that nobody pays retail which may be true buy if the MSRP is higher then the price you will be working from is going to be higher. It's simple math,if a dealer is going to be taking say $4,000 off I'd rather it be off $24k than $28k. There was at least a $4000 difference between my Crew Cab and a comprable loaded Toyota...but the Toyota really never entered the picture(no 4-door model).Not because of it's price, but any educated buyer will look and say "what am I getting for the higher price?"
Decontenting results in significant cost reductions to the manufacturer: less design, less production and less labor to assemble. These cost reductions COULD be passed on to the consumer, or kept as additional profit. Toyota seems to have embraced decontenting with something close to a religous fervor, and they keep the savings.
The '95 Tacoma was Toyota'a first major decontenting project, followed by the Camry in '97. I no longer have the data I compiled on the '95 Tacoma, but you asked for some examples, so here's my best shot at remembering some:
1) The '95 Tacoma was advertised to weigh about 300-500 lbs LESS than the '94 truck. Some of this reduction was due to redesigned components, the rest to removal of parts. Weight reduction has very positive side effects of better gas mileage and better performance. Negative side effects could be a harsher ride and poorer ability to survive crashes.
2) The '89-'94 trucks offered more options and more levels of interior trim than the Tacoma. The SR5 package was a REAL upgrade in '89-'94, not just badging and a tachometer. TRD didn't exist then, so there was no TRD-type package.
3) Many small items like the number of door seals, insulation pads and cable clips were reduced. Could be one reason I feel the Tacoma is noisier than the earlier trucks.
4) Decontenting has continued on the Tacoma since '95. For example, the power antenna disappeared and the front bumper in now just a plastic shell.
5) As another (related) example, the 24-piece front bumper/grille assembly on the '96 Camry was reduced to about 7 pieces on the '97 Camry.
Decontenting does NOT equate to poor quality. Just cost savings to the manufacturer. It does beg the question of whether or not too much may have been removed in the interest of cost savings. IMHO, the answer is YES! I feel the Tacoma is not the equivalent of the earlier trucks and I feel I got a lot less truck for my money, but hey, that's just my opinion.
If I had it to do all over again, I would have kept my '89 truck rather than buy than damned '95 Tacoma. I had the '89 for six years without a single problem and it served my specific needs much better than either of my Tacomas. But that's not what you asked.
"what am I getting for the higher price?"
Well in my case, the truck I wanted, plain and simple.
"Rickc5, the limited is with the leather interior so your price comparison is false. Sure,
with the leather you pay higher price but the dakota doesn't have leather."
FYI- The base limited comes with a cloth interior. Leather is an (expensive) option.
You stated:
"Also the limited only comes in extended cab compared to the reg. cab you priced on the dakota. So if you compared the 2 vehicles with the reg. cab , the tacoma would be cheaper. Compare both with reg. cabs, the tacoma is cheaper."
If you READ my post again, you'll note that I stated I was comparing apples and oranges and I was only trying to jerk spoog's chain by showing him that indeed, a Tacoma COULD easily cost more than $5000 more than a Dakota. I was NOT attempting to compare similar trucks. You should be aware by now that if similar trucks were compared, the Tacoma would still have an MSRP of $2000-3000 more than Ranger, Frontier, etc. If not, just check the numbers here on Edmunds.
You stated:
"If toyota was an american truck, i'm sure it would outsell the so-called big 3 hands down."
FYI- The Tacoma was designed in America by Americans and is built in America by Americans for Americans.
You're also correct that this de-contenting has not been limited to the Tacoma. The Camry was de-contented in '97 and again, I feel Toyota removed some of the character of the Camry that made the '92-'96 Camrys such great cars. The '92-96 Camrys were VERY close to the Lexus ES300. Not any more. That hasn't kept them from being the best selling car though.
Since the Tacoma was the first product line to be de-contented, perhaps Toyota applied some "lessons learned" to the Camry and other efforts since, and God willing, will allow them to do a better job with the next compact truck in a year or two.
In case you haven't noticed, I don't hate Toyotas. In fact, I bought ONLY Toyotas for many years and still drive a Lexus. I just feel that Toyota made some serious mistakes with the Tacoma and haven't really fixed them.
As the years go by, my vehicle will get loving care and little abuse. If it works as well as I expect, it will stay with me for a long time and I will mourn it when I trade it in. If it turns out to be more trouble than it is worth to keep, I will mourn the lost potential and move on.
The point to this, is that we all love our vehicles and will rightfully defend them. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the harder you insult a person's vehicle choice, the harder you denounce the person who bought it.
-I wonder if this is an example of that toyota arrogance I was talking about earlier??
I may not be a totally unbiased "observer", as I truly don't like the Tacoma, BUT it sure seems to me that the mud-slinging and belittling has surely been a two-way street on this and other Edmunds pickup forums. There are plenty examples of that and I even found myself alluding to one of the posters being a moron in a moment of weakness. I won't do that again.
IMHO, there sure seem to be some vocal Tacoma owners who really push the envelope of civility in stuffing their opinions down others' throats. it just might be possible that these "attitudes" cause some very negative reactions from the owners of non-Toyotas.
We all have specific opinions about the vehicles we choose and this forum should be about sharing these personal opinions rather than regurgitating the opinions of others (such as the media).
A little more civility, combined with PERSONAL experiences, rather than media quotes, could go a long way to make this forum a less adversarial arena.
Just my $.02 worth.
Guess what where do you think the money ultimately ends up in Japan, where Toyota is Headquarted Duh!!!!!!!!
It is still a Foreign Company!
Yes, that works rather well.
Now, for my CHOICE:
I own a 2001 Dodge Dakota QC 4x4 4.7L V8. Why?
1) Previous excellent experience with Dodge.
2) Price
3) It fits my purpose and budget.
4) No good competition as yet. The Ford SuperCrew is too big, too pricey, and underpowered for it's size. The Nissan Crew Cab is just to small and underpowered for my needs (If I don't fit in the back, I don't want it). The Ford Sport Trac is just plain ugly and doesn't offer a decent engine, plus the bed is even smaller.
Under what circumstance would I choose a foreign vehicle? When there is absolutely no decent American choice. I don't think this condition currently exists, however, since we have so many choices available in many categories.
What you CHOOSE is up to you. I just hope you'll consider my comments. BTW, I am not a UAW worker or a member of any other union. I am a white collar worker, conservative, and proudly 99% Republican. If you care about this country, you'd be one, too, and make the right CHOICES.
Your statement about "buy" here,might be a little erroneous.The trend seems to be in the opposite direction.Nissan,Toyota among others are the ones that have invested in our people and country by building their vehicles here.The "Big 3" are having more and more of their parts manufactured out of this country as well as some vehicles.They are the ones who have not continued to invest here.
it turns into all against Toyota. What does that
mean? I am curious why all are focused on Toyota"
When you at the top of the mountain, everyone will try to take shots at you. Thats the answer.
When it comes to a reliable, durable, and offroad designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
OF course Jeep makes a very, very mean stock offroader, but their quality and reliability isn't up to Toyota standards.
When you plunk down 20k for a Toyota Tacoma, you know your getting a fine tuned MACHINE that will last you a decade without any major headaches.
This isn't some product just slapped together. Ever read Edmunds reviews of Toyota vehicles? They are always blown away by the superior fit and finish of these vehicles. No crooked door panels, no loose seals, ect.
And in the 4x4 world, Toyota dominates.
Best full size SUV for offroading? Land Cruiser
Best offroading compact pickup? Tacoma
Best offroading mid size SUV? 4runner and Jeep grand cherokee, Jeep cherokee classic.
If you look at the JD powers long term survey, you will see that toyota ALSO leads in quality and reliability in every truck category. This is a FIVE year test gang.
Every single trade magazine for the past 20 years has rated Toyota trucks as the most reliable and best built pickups, BAR NONE.
You translate this with offroading, and you have one fine, EXPERTLY designed, EXPERTLY built tool with which to utilize on the trails or on the roads in our suburbs.
NO offense, but a Ford Ranger with 50k miles starts feeling very week. It rattles, it pulls, it shakes, bl blah(read the edmunds long term ranger test and look at all the issues in just 3ok miles!).
A Tacoma at 100k feels like most rigs with 4o k, simple as that.
Why do people pay more money for a Porsche when they can just get a Mustang for50 grand less?
designed vehicle, Toyota can;t be beat.
If you are going to make a broad all encompassing statement like that,then you are WRONG.Land Rover,and Hummer will out perform Toyota off road without even trying.I do not think Toyota can go up a 31" verticle wall.
I'd mightend up with a Dakota 4x4 with the 4.7L V8 ext-cab with every option known to man.
But... The '01 Ranger looks awfully tempting, especially that great new premium off-road package.
Oh wait! The Ranger is up for a complete redesign in '02. Maybe that truck will take the cake.
I can't forget about the Nissan either. It's getting a supercharger for its 3.3L V6 this fall. It's the only truck I'd consider getting in a crew-cab. So, that truck might be the one.
A fully loaded TRD S/C 4x4 Tacoma would be fun too. But, aren't the Taco's getting a complete redesign in '02 too? Maybe I'd wait for one of those.
Damn! I just can't decide. It would take days of test driving them to let my subjective opinions take over to tell me which one to take. So, I guess I can't really answer the survey.
#2 - S-10 But the Z-R2 4.3
#3 - N. Frontier with that supercharger
#4 - Ranger and Tacoma (toss up)
Allen-
http://www.svtexperience.com/ranger.html
Will Ford build it? Probably not. Why is it that Dodge and Audi are the only companies that make a concept car, see that everyone loves it, and actually goes on to build it? I've never quite understood that.
Reg. Cab ...... Ranger or S-10 (prob. Ranger don't trust the Chevy Traany)
Extended Cab.... Taco
Crew Cab....... Nissan(As far as Dodge's size goes I'd just spend the extra for a full size)
I will say this though, even though I'm still a little scared of Dodge's reliablity, I'd be a damn IDIOT not to buy the Dodge for the same price as the rest of these trucks...as long as you give me the V-8
Published: June 24, 2000
Date of revision: None
By: James Brennan tech staff writer
(Part four of a four part series)
" It seems that Ford Motor Company has trouble
hitting their mark when it
comes to their slogan "Quality is Job 1". The
number of recalls per vehicle
and overall reliability ratings appear to be
moving in the wrong direction.
Ford owners everywhere are reluctant to convey
confidence and satisfaction when discussing their
car with friends, family and coworkers as of late.
In fact, out of 32 car manufacturers worldwide,
Ford has dropped to 28th place for overall customer
satisfaction. One customer for every 400 vehicles
sold is involved in an unresolved claim, meaning
either there is no known repair for a problem they
are experiencing, or they have become so frustrated
that they wish to have their car bought back.
Saturn, by comparison, has one unresolved claim
for every 14,000 vehicles sold. Despite these
facts, Ford continues to be one of the largest car
companies in the world. This can only mean that
their engineers and product
designers are second to none. To put it plainly,
Ford makes several very
appealing cars. Those responsible for the new and
redesigned Fords that hit the showroom floors
really have their finger on the pulse of the car
buying
public.
Since consumers often head straight for the Ford
dealership when
shopping for a car, then how is it possible that
the customer satisfaction
index continues to suffer? People buy cars to
suit, or sometimes create their personality. The
first symptom of the male mid-life crisis is the
desire to get behind the wheel of a sports car.
People nearly have love affairs with their cars,
giving them names, garages at night, hand waxes on
the weekends, and aftermarket accessories.
I have never known anyone to name a television, a
pair of shoes, or even a home for that matter.
Taking into account the emotion between a car
and its owner, the auto industry has carved its
own niche in the business
world.
Those who hold high office at Ford Motor Company
are excellent
businessmen. Men like Jac Nassar, and Carl Bergman
were brought in for their expertise in running big
businesses. This is exactly the problem, because
the auto industry is unique in the business world.
Businessmen look at facts and figures much
differently than what a "car person" would.
Someone who understands what a car means to a
person is interested in
selling a quality car for a reasonable price. A
car person knows that a happy
customer will return later to purchase another
vehicle. They will use parts
and assembly processes that will ensure a balance
of reliability,
performance, ergonomics, safety, and overall
value.
A businessman, on the other hand, is inclined to
ignore the big picture
and look at today's facts. Once the design becomes
a finished product and the Manufacturer's
Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) is determined, every
cost cutting measure conceivable will be taken to
increase the profit.
Replacing steel parts with aluminum and aluminum
parts with plastic does indeed reduce vehicle
weight and manufacturing cost. In moderation, the
consequences are negligible, but when these steps
are taken into practice on every part of the car,
the whole vehicle suffers.
Car people are embarrassed when their product
needs warranty repairs.
They are willing to pay a fair price to the dealer
for satisfying their
customer. Businessmen look at what warranty
repairs cost them and find
another way around it.
Ford, rather than justify the extra revenue
required to improve the quality of their parts, has
chosen another route. After studying which repairs
are the most common, they looked to Carl Bergman,
Head of Parts and Service for the answer. His
decision was to slash the warranty labor standards
across the board, forcing the dealerships to help
bear the burden.
Service staff and technicians have watched
helplessly as their monthly incomes have slowly
decreased. The result was a $70 million savings in
warranty costs last year alone. Carl Bergman
insisted that technicians are grossly overpaid. For
his efforts, Mr. Bergman collected a $16 million
bonus.
Unfortunately, these business practices do not
translate well to the
automotive world. Cutting corners in manufacturing
procedures and warranty
repairs only serves to aggravate the customer
satisfaction problem. Rather
than focus on one problem at a time, those who are
running Ford Motor Company need to take a long
hard look at the big picture. The public has
definitely shown an unmatched level of enthusiasm
for Ford's product line.
Sacrificing a few hundred dollars per vehicle at
the factory will not only save thousands in
warranty repairs, but will restore the pride of
ownership that has been lacking lately in those who
drive Fords. I am persuaded that Mr. Nassar, Mr.
Bergman and the rest would be amazed at how
thinking like "car people" could revolutionize the
entire company."
blueovalnews.com
BTW Rick I had the 89 and 99 Camry. The 1999 Camry was way better than the 89 in quality, ride, and build.
:^D
Which VeeDub are you talking about?
spoog, you asked for it, you got it. Arm yourself with a barfbag before going to this site.
http://www.pontiac.com/aztek/index.html
I think the Aztek is the best looking vehicle to come along since the Pacer.
Sorry about the long thread but since your're an avid Toyota fan I thought I would share my truck with you. In fact part of the reason I now own a Nissan is because of my Toyota. I first should tell you I owned the following truck from '92-'94.I have always liked the truck from '80-'83 the best of any of Toyota's years because of body style(which I think that the Tacoma closely resembles)and the solid axle. I traded a co worker my '86 Samuri 4x4 for it(I made out on this deal).Now the Toyota was in much worse condition than my Samuri by far alot of work went into it.
Yeah, I loved mine and it worked awesome. While I was attending FSU I needed the timing chain replaced. Since I didn't have alot of $$$ I went to the cheapest guy in Tallahassee to replace it but,he didn't replace the oil pump gears and he
couldn't seal the cover(timing) correctly so the motor was not only leaking alot of oil but it wasn't getting the oil around the engine properly. I must have driven around on that motor for about six months, revving it up at stop lights and stop signs to get the oil to the top of the motor. I finally saved up $600 to buy an '83 Celica engine to replace mine.I went this route because it was about $400 cheaper than a rebuild and I just wanted it to get me through college so after I graduated I could really do it right. I planned on keeping this '81 4x4 longbed forever. I had completely redone the interior new carpet, new dash, Mazda seats that flipped forward so I could get behind the seats.Anyway, I did the transplant of both engines: air cleaners, flipping the oil pan and so on. I really good friend of mine who happened to be one of the best mechanics in town let me use the back of his shop. He actually did the installation of the engine and I paid him about $200. But anyways I loved that truck. I even had new decals on order and they were coming from Japan. I had 33" tire with 15x10 rims and a 3" suspension lift(no blocks). The only complaint I had with the truck, and it was my fault because I didn't do the gear swap yet, was as 'bulletproof' as that engine was it was really weak(remember I had the 'R' not 'RE' no injection unfortunately)
after I put the big tires on it. Engine mods were
soon to come. But, now she's gone and I never got
to finish her. Maybe one day I'll take on another but it'll have to be an '83 though I like the grills better and the transmission doesn't have welded gears on the input shaft(the '81 was the only year they did that, figures right? a you can tell I had the tranny rebuild after bearing failure)but these little guys are hard to find in stock condition. I used to love shopping for it. Every now and then I break out the pictures
Oh I was going to ask you remember the Turbo 22RE? i think they were in the '84 &'85's
You know that Hitler used seveal of those 'things' in WWII. I actually drove one of those around after my Toyota was totaled. It was a friend of mine that had it and it was his second car for the weekends he had it totally resored....weird car or thing. LOL
jennifer,
Welcome to the 'war'. If you don't have any truck 'experience' drive them all, you may go back to your first 'love' but at least you can compare them all. Are you looking for a 4x4 or 2wd or a 2wd that 'rides' like the 4x4(in hieght)? As for reilability IMHO their all close, the thing I remeber is the brands with the 'worse' reliablility ratings have the most dealerships meaning that there should always be one near