Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Sorry, I just don't believe that report. Tainted data that looked more like opinion to me. Certainly not a valid scientific survey. Peer reviewed?

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    There's really nothing to "not believe" about the report.

    They just measured the permafrost border and reported it. No "opinions" required - just look at the pictures and compare them.

    The researchers measured the retreat of the permafrost border by observing hummocks known as "palsas," which form naturally over ice contained in the soil of northern peat bogs. Conditions in these mounds are conducive to the development of distinct vegetation—lichen, shrubs, and black spruce—that make them easy to spot in the field.

    In an initial survey in 2004, the researchers examined seven bogs located between the 51st and 53rd parallels. They noted at that time that only two of the bogs contained palsas, whereas aerial photos taken in 1957 showed palsas present in all of the bogs. A second assessment in 2005 revealed that the number of palsas present in these two bogs had decreased over the course of one year by 86% and 90% respectively.

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    That is great news. You ever try to grow a palm tree in permafrost. Or maybe an orange tree. Not sure when the last Palm tree died in the Arctic, but I am sure it was a sad day for the folks living back then.

    AGW is a HOAX, a dead issue. The sooner we get rid of every politician on the AGW bandwagon we can get on the road to economic recovery.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Yes, just like they measured the glaciers in the Himalayas, LOL !! Anyone can interpret the data any way they choose...and they do.

    Puffery--Presenting opinion as if it were fact.

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  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    edited February 2010
    Was there any doubt? Not really. :shades:

    http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20100218a/
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is the part that scares me. It gives the politicians ammunition to further rape the tax payer.

    "We wanted to provide the information in a way that would be more helpful for policy makers," Unger said. "This approach will make it easier to identify sectors for which emission reductions will be most beneficial for climate and those which may produce unintended consequences."

    So what happened to the IPCC report that says 15% of all GHG is caused by transportation? Now this government paid employee refutes that claim. Why should we trust her report any more than the ones that have already been found to be doctored?

    In their analysis, motor vehicles emerged as the greatest contributor to atmospheric warming now and in the near term. Cars, buses, and trucks release pollutants and greenhouse gases that promote warming, while emitting few aerosols that counteract it.

    Hmmm I wonder if she knows Obama just gave me a tax credit for buying a wood burning stove.

    The researchers found that the burning of household biofuels -- primarily wood and animal dung for home heating and cooking -- contribute the second most warming. And raising livestock, particularly methane-producing cattle, contribute the third most.

    Of course the state of CA decided CO2 was a pollutant so they raised the price of electricity. What choice do people have but to burn wood or whatever is handy?

    I would like to consider the report honest and balanced. I just do not trust any site that ends in .GOV
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If I am looking at this report correctly it tells me that coal fired generators actually have a balancing affect on the climate. So we should build more dirty coal generation plants to counter act the added automobiles.

    In contrast, the industrial sector releases many of the same gases, but it also tends to emit sulfates and other aerosols that cause cooling by reflecting light and altering clouds.

    So China is the one responsible for the cooling over the last 15 years. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2010
    Here's one for you:

    "He said so many new kinds of birds are showing up, villagers need a guidebook to identify them."

    Barrow, Alaska: Ground Zero for Climate Change (Smithsonian)

    Here's a pic of me and my wife under the same arch that's on the magazine page. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Interesting article. I question the loss of food. There is no shortage of Pepsi, potato chips and cocoa puffs in the Arctic village stores. Eating traditional foods has become more of a celebratory ritual, than day to day survival. They kill polar bears and sell the gall bladders to the Asians. I have seen polar bear pelts laying in the front yards all muddy and ruined. Caribou, Seals and Walrus laying out in the sun all bloated. They cut off the Walrus tusks and leave the rest to rot.

    For their part, Alaskan Eskimos worry that the problems associated with increased traffic will affect their food supply. Much of their diet comes from seals, walrus and whales, which may be killed or displaced by human activity.


    We are probably going to lose huge amounts of oil because of Congressional wrangling and environmental blocks. While the other Arctic countries expand oil production and sell it to US. :sick:

    The United States, which stands to gain territory the size of California, is woefully behind in the race to develop its territorial claims, critics say. Russia and Norway have already submitted claim applications to a United Nations-based commission that will help determine ownership. Russia and Canada have beefed up their Arctic military forces, and Canada has installed sensors on Devon Island in the high arctic to detect rogue ships.

    Many Eskimos in the Arctic blame the oil companies for any and every issue impacting their lives and the fishing or hunting. Yet where would they be without the $250 million per year they get from oil? I have been in the mud huts and tin shacks they all lived in before the oil money started flowing in the early 1970s. I don't think they would survive the way their grandparents lived as nomadic hunters.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is my attitude about GW or CC. It is the smartest and healthiest way to live.

    That’s the way it always happened. That’s the way it was supposed to happen. As the worsening weather closed in, Glenn turned the boat back to shore. He wasn’t worried, he said. He would cope with climate change just as he’d coped with other changes he’d seen. “We may have to learn some new weather patterns,” he said. “But we always have.”
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    At least now we get some review and appraisals on the subject of GW. No more DONE DEAL or consensus when there never was a consensus of a majority of scientists.

    Scientists have been forced to withdraw a study on projected sea level rise due to global warming after finding mistakes that undermined the findings.

    The study, published in 2009 in Nature Geoscience, one of the top journals in its field, confirmed the conclusions of the 2007 report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). It used data over the last 22,000 years to predict that sea level would rise by between 7cm and 82cm by the end of the century.

    "Retraction is a regular part of the publication process," he said. "Science is a complicated game and there are set procedures in place that act as checks and balances."

    Nature Publishing Group, which publishes Nature Geoscience, said this was the first paper retracted from the journal since it was launched in 2007.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    this was the first paper retracted from the journal since it was launched in 2007.

    Hardly a long winning streak !!

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Interesting op-ed piece.

    No Snow Job

    We're the nation that put a man on the moon, so we can't be stupid. We're just pretending, right? We're not really taking seriously the ``argument'' that the big snowstorms that have hit the Northeast in recent weeks constitute evidence -- or even proof -- that climate change is some kind of hoax.

    That would be unbelievably dumb. Yet there are elected officials in Washington who apparently believe such nonsense. Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., had his family build an igloo near the Capitol and label it ``Al Gore's New Home.'' Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., boasted on Twitter that the snows would continue ``until Al Gore cries uncle.'' Talking heads are seriously debating whether the record snowstorms doom the prospects for comprehensive legislation to deal with energy policy and climate change, which is one of President Obama's top priorities.

    It is true that Washington is slogging through its snowiest winter on record. Before I could bring in the newspaper on Thursday morning, I had to dress for a mountain-climbing expedition because my front yard resembles a small glacier. My commute to the office normally takes 20 minutes; it took more than an hour, as I fought my way through streets whose outside lanes have been encroached upon by huge snowbanks.

    But that was nothing compared to Tuesday morning, when I awoke to find that a snow plow had blocked my car into the driveway with a two-foot berm of ice. I had an early appointment, so I had to shovel my way out -- before coffee. I'm afraid that the first thing my neighbors heard that morning was some unneighborly language.

    But here's what those bad few months can't change: After decades of study, scientists around the world have reached the conclusion that the Earth is warming and that humankind is responsible. The past decade was the warmest on record. Among the anticipated effects of climate change are increased precipitation -- not just rain, but also snow -- and bigger storms. What we've seen this winter tends to prove, not disprove, the scientific consensus that warming is real.


    Ahem....:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    That is just another snow job by a KNOW NOTHING reporter.

    The past decade was the warmest on record.

    That is Blatantly False. The last 15 years have not shown ANY increase in temperature. The MWP is likely the warmest in the last 5000 Years. Where do ignorant souls like this yokel come from? A Hack reporter trying to keep Al Gore's Cult alive. Climate Change is inevitable. AGW is a HOAX and a money grabbing scam.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    larsb, posting drivel like this? Man, you are really slipping. Are you really that low on ammo? Come on now, you are becoming an embarrassment !!

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary repeated, "The past decade was the warmest on record."

    Hey, until someone comes out with numbers that say different, and no one HAS, the climate stats AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW show the decade of the 2000s as the warmest decade since modern record keeping began in the late 1800s.

    Show me some links from climate scientists who disagree if you doubt it.

    Google the phrase "warmest decade on record" if you doubt it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Senator Inhofe also called for former Vice President Al Gore to be called back to the Senate to testify.

    “In [Gore's] science fiction movie, every assertion has been rebutted,” Inhofe said. He believes Vice President Gore should defend himself and his movie before Congress.

    Just prior to a hearing at 10:00 a.m. EST, Senator Inhofe released a minority staff report from the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, of which he is ranking member. Senator Inhofe is asking the Department of Justice to investigate whether there has been research misconduct or criminal actions by the scientists involved, including Dr. Michael Mann of Pennsylvania State University and Dr. James Hansen of Columbia University and the NASA Goddard Institute of Space Science.


    I would include every school administrator that forced this movie into the classroom. I believe there is a class action suit in Florida where parents were also forced to view the movie as part of their child's grade in class. The AGW hoax needs to be obliterated from the American psyche. I have no problem teaching about Climate Change and the need to prepare for change. I protest the Alarmist political strong armed tactics being used. Along with raising my taxes and utilities based on lies and poor science.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Not a hoax. Not a hoax.

    The warming is REAL.

    The cause? Al Gore GUESSED and might have guessed wrong.

    But not a hoax in any form.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    Here is a noted one. With the reason it should be questioned.

    http://global-warming.accuweather.com/2009/11/record_highs_versus_record_low_1.h- tml

    Daily record high temperatures have occurred twice as often as record lows over the last decade across the continental U.S., according to the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and NOAA.

    NCAR states that the increase in record highs has been spurred by a warming climate and that the ratio of record highs to lows will likely increase in the coming decades if greenhouse gas emissions keep climbing.

    Personally, I am not so sure that you can come to that conclusion so early (spurred by a warming climate) based on 10 years of data over a very small portion of the globe. They may be right, but let's see what the next 10-20 years of data brings.

    It was also noted in the story that most of the warming over the past decade was with nighttime temperatures, which could also be a reflection of increasing urbanization (heat island effect) across the lower 48 and more cloud cover. Right here in State College, there has clearly been a lack of record lows over the past decade and I think a part of that reason is the fact that the weather station (which has not moved) has been getting more an more surrounded by large buildings over the past 15-20 years.


    Bad science

    I believe this study is hopelessly flawed due to the fact that the authors take the data from the weather stations at face value without considering bias due to measurement error or siting error, both of which are rampant in the US surface station network.

    image

    Above: official USHCN weather station, in the parking lot, Atmospheric Science Dept. University of Arizona, Tucson. Photo: Warren Meyer

    My take is the Scientific community was so greedy to get the AGW dollars, they would do what it takes to get a grant and a bigger budget. That includes NASA, NOAA and the other US Government agencies involved in the AGW hoax.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    The HOAX is AGW. It may be warmer today than yesterday. And it may be cooler. That has been happening since the planet was created. And it makes no difference if man is helping it along one way of the other. No one wants to annihilate a few billion people to change the impact humans have on the earth. So how is raising my utility bills going to stop the Chinese from building a new coal generator every week? And now they say that power generation and industry may put out enough good pollution to counteract the bad. Just recently posted.

    PS
    Gore has never said he guessed. He pushed the lies to the forefront using his political clout. He should do prison time.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Tee-Hee.

    Your passion and insistence on calling this an intentional money-grab hoax is kinda amusing, in a "laughing at the old crazy guy in the neighborhood" kind of way. (disclaimer: I'm NOT calling you the old crazy guy, just using that as an analogy)

    The warming is real.

    I'm SERIOUSLY doubting that is a weather station, and even if it IS, it is counterbalanced by the hundreds or thousands placed on grass around the world.

    Just like it can be 75 degrees on one side of town and 68 degrees in another side, every town has to settle on one official weather point and use that in order for historical temps to be good data.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    First and last, you can't call it a HOAX because you CANNOT PROVE IT'S NOT TRUE.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I forget how the argument goes about trying to prove a negative.

    Inhofe Weighs Criminal Probe of Scientists' Climate Change E-Mails (Fox)

    This could get fun - if Congress over-reaches, they may swing public opinion back to the warming side. Nothing like inviting a bunch of experts to testify when you may not know what they'll wind up saying. :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have never had a problem with scientists testifying on the subject of AGW. My gripe is from early on they did not ALLOW dissenting viewpoints to be expressed in these conferences where policy was being determined. Even in the Copenhagen debacle they blocked several scientists with opposing studies to be heard. That to me constitutes a hoax. And a money grabbing scam. Any one that followed COP15 could plainly see the 3rd World was there for a handout. And they would be happy to say whatever they are told to say to get the money. AGW is a HOAX of Biblical proportions.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Can't be proven a hoax unless it can be proven false. Sorry.

    You might have the "opinion" it's a hoax, and that's all great and all cupcakes and sugar for you.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    It is a hoax because, according to the warmists, the debate is OVER...and certainly they cannot prove that. It just proves that they want my money to spend as they see fit. HOAX !!

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, that depends on what debate they are saying is OVER.

    The fact that we are warming debate IS over.

    The CAUSE of that warming, well, that debate is DEFINITELY NOT over.
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    remember it is an Opinion piece!
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    How do you know for sure that right were you are standing was not warmer or colder 500 years ago that it is right now?

    Oh thats right you don't know that so I guess your fact is more of an opinion...which is fine, we all have opinions...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Correcto.....like most of the posts here..... :):):):)
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    so the "fact that warming is real" is an opinion...

    which is important to keep in mind
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    No, that's not an opinion.

    There is no consensus even from "denier scientists" which refutes the warming trend.

    Even before AlGore even heard of the Internet, the planet had been on a warming trend.

    That is not deniable.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Even before AlGore even heard of the Internet, the planet had been on a warming trend. That is not deniable.

    Of course it is deniable. When an Iowa farmer looks out at his field that he should be getting ready to plant and their is still a foot of snow. He is going to refute your statement of a global warming trend. To him global means nothing. His world is in that field.

    If the data being used was at all consistent over the last 100 or even 50 years it may have some credibility. The documented truth about weather stations is beyond belief. When you have a weather station that is used in a study. It has to remain the same for the length of the study or the data is tainted and FALSE. You cannot use an airport weather station on an old dirt field in the 1940s, then put in a black top runway and tarmac and get an honest data set. You cannot take the weather data from 6000 stations in the 1960s and then pare them down to 1500 in select locations and use them with the previous data. The world populace has been duped by the political agencies that stand to gain from their lies and half truths. And all the bold type will not change the truth. AGW has been made a Hoax by unscrupulous scientists and politicians. Whatever impact man has on the planet has been tainted for political gain.

    Anyone that claims otherwise is drinking the AGW Alarmist Koolaid. Where is that scoundrel Al Gore? Probably kicked back on his yacht laughing at our ignorance for making him a multi millionaire.

    image
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited February 2010
    Well, I guess everything is "deniable" if one is stubborn and refuses to look at the facts.

    But if you openly look at the temp trends, there is no doubt it has been getting warmer.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    But if you openly look at the temp trends, there is no doubt it has been getting warmer.

    Again you are accepting the flawed data blindly. Much of which has been destroyed by CRU to cover their lies. I posted a picture of just one of hundreds of weather stations that are now surrounded by concrete. Are you telling me those will give the same readings as they did when it was an open field? The data cannot be trusted for something as important as a $Trillion boondoggle. I could care less if the weatherman uses the data to tell me what the temp is for that day. I can go on my deck and compare to my own thermometer. There are also a dozen or more sophisticated home weather stations now online in my area. I have watched to see which matches my own the closest. They can vary 10 degrees or more in about a 5 mile radius. When we are talking about a fraction of one degree over a decade it is easy to see how that can be manipulated to satisfy any agenda. Be it warmer or cooler.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    But if you openly look at the temp trends, there is no doubt it has been getting warmer.

    And if you look at historical data there is no doubt that it cooler now than it was thousands of years ago or even millions of years ago. And you think the debate is over ???

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Millions and thousands of years ago climate does not help us solve today's problem, which is "why is the planet warming up?"
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, I am not accepting "flawed data" at all.

    The curve was "up" before AlGore ever thought of carbon credits.

    The data was curving up before anyone ever decided to start trying to get grant money to prove the curve.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited February 2010
    The data was curving up before anyone ever decided to start trying to get grant money to prove the curve.

    So what is your point? No one argues that climate changes. According the top Climate scientist there has not been any significant Change in 15 years. That it was screwed with to keep the agenda alive.

    Professor Jones also conceded the possibility that the world was warmer in medieval times than now – suggesting global warming may not be a man-made phenomenon.

    And he said that for the past 15 years there has been no ‘statistically significant’ warming.


    So now the Top Climate scientist in the World says no change in 15 years. And Larsb says there has been, so who do we believe? You like that ambiguous term "Warming Trend" I can say there has been a Cooling trend since the 13th century and be just as correct. Most scientist say a cooling trend since a peak in 1998 also. It is a very loose term with little or no significance.

    And now we find out the Coal fired generators may contribute to cooling the climate with aerosols and sulfates they put out.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You are intentionally leaving out the part of the story that weakens your argument.

    I will go back and look at the previous time where I posted a "correction" for you and post it AGAIN so you can quit ignoring the other part.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited February 2010
    Here is the post I settled that argument with:

    7606

    7609

    My constant contention remains true:

    "The trend is a warming trend’.

    But the ENTIRE SENTENCE is this: "He further admitted that in the last 15 years there had been no ‘statistically significant’ warming, although he argued this was a blip rather than the long-term trend."

    We don't know what is causing the "statistically insignificant" warming, but the trend is still TOWARD WARMING.

    It might be "natural phenomenon" and it "might not be."
  • PMOPMO Member Posts: 278
    When the Earth is Populated by 10 billion people with the body temp of 98.6 all breathing out that temp . I would guess putting them in a big room would increase the room temp. Then add the fuel burnt by the companies employing 10 billion and the cars to get those employed to work. My opinion has some marit?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited February 2010
    Start-Up Bloom Claims Fuel-Cell Breakthrough (Wall St. Journal).

    Not really too topical a story but Bloom was funded by Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers and y'all seem to like Al Gore so much, so ... (Gore is a partner in the venture capital firm).

    Go green for the green?
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    yes it is an opinion
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    uh your statement "Millions and thousands of years ago climate does not help us solve today's problem, which is "why is the planet warming up?" "

    is pretty dang funny. Climate has changed for millions of years, 10 years this way 10 years that way, up, down, hot, cold, tropical, ice age. Now all of a sudden people are claiming that this last 10 years is some how significantly different from any random previous 10 year (its not!) and that we some how have a crisis on our hands, we don't!

    Now that this hoax has been proven ( falsifying data is proof enough) I wonder what the next great crisis will be forced on us -

    The sky is falling, the sky is falling ....yawn....
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    uh...""He further admitted that in the last 15 years there had been no ‘statistically significant’ warming"...

    what part of no warming in the last 15 years are you not understanding here? Is this statement really that hard to read?

    If no warming over the last 15 years they why do you keep up with that opinion "The trend is a warming trend" when your guy says there was not?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Our friend believes with all his heart that man is more powerful than nature. That our impact on the planet is negative. That we are doomed if we do not live a carbon neutral lifestyle. And that all he spends to that end is not wasted. While most of us realize that man is a mere blip in the big picture of earth, space and time. Same goes for the polar bears and 3 toed tree frogs.

    Obsession with AGW is a big part of what is destroying our economy and our standard of living. The negatives of hair brained ideas like Cap N Trade, far out weigh the positives. Look at what it has done to CA. We are on the brink of financial collapse. And the people and jobs that have been forced out of the state can be directly tied to over regulation and taxation.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The "falsifying data" proves only that some of the researchers were trying to make sure they stayed employed - move on.

    The polar ice caps ain't meltin' they own self.

    The trend of warming started before AlGore was involved.

    There were books about global warming back in the late 1980s.


    People did not just invent some fake temperature data to decide the Earth was warming. They looked at existing data and made the connection.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, "Obsession with AGW is a big part of what is destroying our economy and our standard of living."

    Gary, please cut back on the dramatics.

    Our economy almost crashed because some home lenders were being stupid about making home loans to people who could not afford them.

    It had NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, ZERO to do with AGW.

    Man is not more powerful than nature. But pollution affects are REAL. Polluted water and air are REAL.

    The FACT (FACT) that the Earth is warming does not need to be poo-pooed, but needs to be studied and we need to know what we can do to become better stewards of the planet which provides us with life.

    The "denier movement" is run by people who don't want to be told how to live. That's fine, because that emotion is at the HEART of what created this great country.

    But the deniers who protest so much need to set aside their stubborn ways and see that what is being recommended is better for THEM TOO, not just better for the tree huggers.

    Clean air, clean water, more stable global weather, ice at the polar caps, all those things are important for EVERYONE, not just for Vegans.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    But the deniers who protest so much need to set aside their stubborn ways

    Excellent advice...for you. I would tend to think that those who stubbornly deny the recent confessions, revelations, and mea culpas from so called global warming scientists are the deniers.

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