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Comments
BTW - I test drove the GL and I'd recommend it if you are looking for a big SUV. MB really hit the mark with that truck.
I'd say on final analysis that the LS460L and the S550 are a hair apart in quality and exceptional luxury. In oure driving I'd give a nose win to the S550 and in interior ergonomics I'd give a big win to the LS. The fact that the S has AWD and a nice trunk were other factors that I'd give the edge to the S-class on. You can't go wrong with either car but on this go round I still couldn't get past the psychological reliability doubts. But I did decide on this go round that I want to get a mainstream MB into my garage (not just the fantasy SL toy car I desire) in the next few years. I could see from the quaity improvements in the S build that they are trying to get back on track. This was a lot more important a proof to me than the statements MB HQ made in the past.
Just curious. Does your dealer give the option of a one payment lease up front? We did this with our RX400h and I thought it was a great deal. We paid about $25,000 for a 3 year lease two years ago this coming April. In April 2008 we are free to do whatever.
On the LS600hl, it's hard to believe that there would be that much interest (10-20K over list?) considering the trunk size.
I sure hope your information is solid about the LS460L being available with AWD later this year. My dealer is cluless on this.
Lease - I'm a traditional 0 down 36 month lease person so I never asked that question.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Exactly my story as well when I bought my first 02 LS. I like the S-Class more, but the one I test drove for a week, (yes, a week, because they LOST my Lincoln Navigator I left there, and took a while to find it) had a bunch of interior lights out and gremlins in the power seats - stuff that just scared me to death - not that it would cost me, the warranty would fix it, but the down time - I HATE having my car down frequently for stuff....so I got the Lexus, and then repeated in 05 with a new LS.
IMO they've (the MB dealer) become as courteous as the Lexus dealer here.
Boy not here......still arrogant and condecending.
From what I NOW understand of this process Lexus polls all its dealers (or its biggest volume dealers) to see how they are planning to customize cars for their inventory. From the majority of those configs they then decide what options to package together. The problem there is the way that worked out for the 2007 car the only real new technology dealers are ordering in bulk are the ones least needed - the self parking feature and fancy rear seat occupant items. Bypassed is the pre-collision and the air suspension which is where the most R&D money was probably spent and which to me as a driver are far more important. So for me it was time to go custom rather than have the dealer push those buttons for me. It was almost comical that the manager looked over my config and wondered aloud if that's how they should be bringing them into their inventory. My car works out to be slightly higher than the configs at Lexus.com that get the L to around $81K but utilizes the latest R&D including turning the car into a safer one with better driving dynamics. Their way gives me back Lexus link, rear seat gizmos, self parking and a smaller trunk. The $1500 is well worth it for that tradeoff.
Best car of any size was Lexus ES at +93%, Worst was MB M class at -202%.
MB cars are beautiful but it seems their beauty is only skin deep. :lemon:
:P
I have not posted in a few months but am planning on ordering a new LS460L Touring and would like to know about how long it takes to get delivery after order? I have quite specific requirements so I am not sure if I can expect to get one in the dealer pipeline that would match up. I will be either ordering it from the Lexus dealer in San Antonio or Austin. Both are not near as big as JM Lexus in Florida or Lexus of NYC/Manhattan that I have also dealt with before to a buy prior LS but neither are small either.
I realize this timing is highly dealer dependent but want to ask you all before I go see them Saturday to understand if the time they give me is reasonable or not.
By the way, I saw a number of LS460Ls at the Washington Auto Show last week but they also had an LS600L hybrid there too. However, I did not really ask questions about the hybrid since I have been waiting to see the Touring model because I really want another LS but with serious handling and braking improvements. I have really want an Lexus LS with more of a European handling dynamic. Based on some new Touring owners I have talked to the new LS has really done it. My prayers have been answered. The only real complaint I have is that you can not get the Luxury Package in combination with my mandatory Touring Package. Go figure!
Thanks.
Major, Non-profit Magazine (CR) published reliability estimates based on recent (3 year) history: Luxury - Lexus LS on top with 75% less problems than average. MB S had a Minus 176% more likely to need repairs than the average Luxury car. Only car worse was Cad STS with a minus 196%.
Best car of any size was Lexus ES at +93%, Worst was MB M class at -202%.
nvbanker replied:
And there in lies the #1 reason I don't buy an MB or a CADDY. Am surprised about the Caddy though - am NOT surprised about the MB.
OK. Understandable. But PLEASE take a moment to consider this... it might put things into a better perspective.
Historically, collectively, cars on the average have increased in reliability. As we all know, Lexus is rated on top with very few reported issues per 100 cars statistically. As a result of this, by percentage comparison, it mathematically only takes a small amount of real-life difference in reliability to appear as a large difference when expressed percentage-wise.
For example, 1.5 can be expressed as 300% higher compared to .5, or expressed as a 200% increase! But, both numbers are relatively small!
So, mathematically speaking for a moment, if the number .5 represented Lexus reliability, and the number 1.5 represented brand B, we would all be concerned that brand B is 300% worse in reliability... but in reality, both numbers are still extremely small.
This is the problem with these statistics nowadays. The perception of these vehicle's reliability is not accurate anymore. Percentage comparisons only lead to complete misperception of what the facts themselves really are.
Sorry to jump on this too much nvbanker, but I figured you'd understand and appreciate this point. There is something to be said for being objective and realistic about how we use or interpret statistics.
I believe that ljflx would also consider the way these numbers and statistics are thrown around, as he is a numbers guru.
TagMan
This is just a guess but if the average car had 15 problems then the LS would have 75% less or about 3.75 problems and the Merc S would have 176% more or around 26 problems. Around 4 compared to around 26 would seem rather meaningful.
The key to figuring this out is to find out the actual # of problems the average car had.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think the new MB S550 is a beautiful luxury car...but until time proves otherwise I continue to believe it's beauty is only skin deep.
BTW IMO the appearance of the LS 460L has a luxury radiance especially in darker colors and with chrome wheels.
i , personally have no knowledge of the time between ordering and delivery .
from Personal Experience :
orders have a way , of Not Being Placed ?
I waited for a car that was Never Ordered .
There is ( i found out after ) , a form the dealer
files with Lexus in a " special order " , and a confirmation the Lexus Dealer receives back , that the order was actually placed and accepted .
For myself , I would never trust again the dealer , unless the paper order and confirm was copied in my hands .
mitchell rowe
Yep, that is the obvious conclusion and I believe it is in fact true. Mercedes advocates will deny this as long as they can and when it is so obvious that it cannot be denied they then claim that quality and reliability are not important!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Most of the people who sing their praise, however, do not own one. I might be wrong but I only know of one person who regularly posts on the HELC board that actually owns a Mercedes, and that one is not a HELC.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The only conclusion that can be drawn here is that Lexus vehicle are more reliable than Mercedes vehicles.
The amount of difference is not large, but only appears large on a percentage basis.
I've owned many Mercedes vehicles, even when they were not as reliable statistically as they are now... one or two extra visits to the shop was all that ever really happened. Sure, I wished they never happened, but it was nothing like some try to make it appear, as though I lived in the shop or something ridiculous like that, or that they were constantly breaking down.
I know so many people with Mercedes and Lexus both, and generally they are all happy. It's about all every one drives here... Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, Bentley, Audi, and Jaguar... and, of course, every type of SUV there is. One fellow with two Mercedes Benz vehicles had nightmares with both, and he is the only one I have ever met like that. Another friend owns two Lexus vehicles and one of them has needed transmission work and brake work.
Overall, in the real world, I don't believe that there is a gigantic difference at all. Lexus owners should be proud of the amazing statistic that Lexus vehicles have for reliability, but they should not twist the data to mean that Mercedes vehicles are massively prone to service issues. It's just not like that.
The statistical data is the truth, but only so if it's not twisted. Statistical percentage differences can be very misleading.
Yes, Lexus vehicles are the most reliable, at the top of the ladder, but it doesn't mean that the other vehicles are at the bottom of the ladder... just a few steps down is the real truth.
TagMan
It is interesting that your response mentioned special ordering a LS versus getting one ordered by a dealer that will be going into the pipeline basically slotted for you.
I just got off of the phone with a Lexus customer service representative where I was asking why their Web site and LS brochure indicates that you can get a LS460L with the Touring package plus order the Luxury package. She told me that a dealer can "special order" an LS with this combination and that if I had problems that I needed to get with the Customer Satisfaction Manager at the dealership to see why the sales person or sales manager were not willing to order one the way I wanted.
The only caveat she mentioned was that Lexus might be limiting or blocking certain cars in selected regions of the country. At that point I told her that I had three locations all in different regions of the US and would just try to find the one that was willing and able to order both the Touring and Luxury packages. However, I am somewhat skeptical based one what many of you on this thread have reported.
Any thoughts?
At least it worked that time. When Campbell Brown tried it on a weekend edition of the Today show, it was a total bust.
I forgot to mention that I believe there may be a sales incentive reasoning why dealer do not want to "special order" a LS exactly as you want. Possibly, by steering you to a car they have going into the pipeline that comes close to what you want (but hopefully with even more options you do not really want) they will make the sale in 2 - 4 months instead of having to wait around 6 months or so for the special order.
The Lexus representative I talked to seemed to also imply this without really saying it. Possibly the ole "follow the money" routine.
I believe from many of you posts over the last few years that you have a great relationship with your dealer and sale staff. If I run into any problems I may ask you to put me in contact with them.
Thanks again.
They finally discounted to the tune of about 4.3% off sticker. At the time (Christmas), I was happy with the deal, expecially with the black/black.
Interestingly, I can get an optioned non-AMG S550 for not too much more then the list on an optioned LS460L because my mother retired from Chrysler. The last couple of years family members have been able to get employee/retiree pricing on MB products too. We basically get something in excess of 12 1/2% off list with it increasing based on options.
If they don't believe me I can just go into the MB employee Web site and get a purchase Control Number to show them. Heck, I could just take my laptop with my Verizon card and get it right there at the Lexus dealership.
Of course, with us having owned multiple MB S/SL-Class and Lexus LS cars over the years and am now totally sold on Lexus LSs. A converted MB owner is money in the bank for Lexus.
Your words are right on the money... it is indeed a "gimmick" and a "worthless option". Unfortunately, it has not always performed well, and some of the publicity is negative surrounding the thing. Some of the talk in some circles is that the LS's self-park is a joke... as well as your description of "gimmick".
I still see the possibility that the feature will backfire on them... either an accident or too many complaints... but something potentially can go wrong... an updated version might be necessary down the road.
TagMan
Saw that you have special-ordered an LS. Congratulations.... I've been seeing many more LS's on the roads out here. The car is almost like the Bangle-5 for me; the more I see it, the more I like it. I should say that I now love the Bangle-5 seres. That car looks so much better to me today than 2 years ago. I am sure the LS will go the same route with looks for me. However, my test drive of the 460L left me with a lot of smiles. That LWB car is the way to go for this car. You won't regret it. Incidentally, its the same trim my wife likes... a good omen for me
The car ended up stickering at 82,600. I asked them for a grand off and they gave it to me. It's virtually impossible to get a discount on a custom orderred LS and they told me they are still not discounting any cars unless they are undesirable color combos. The color that really falls into that bracket is the gold color (why Lexus ever made that color is beyond me) as no one seems to want that color. The Smoky Granite, silver, white, black and black sapphire are the hot colors this year. The car also looked beautiful in the noble burgundy color. The LWB is the better looking car to me and the SWB has a bit more stubby appearance. I did end up with the 18' trunk because I passed on the rear seat electronics and air.
If you go down to the showroom make them play a DVD audio disc in the ML. It is unbelievable to hear that sound in such closed quarters from the ML's 19 speakers. The ultimate surround sound experience. I'm wondering if burning a DVD on your PC gives you DVD audio quality. I've only burned Cds. If so I'll burn 6 dvds with all my fav songs. I do have about 10 or 12 DVD audio discs from my music industry days.
I'm also anxious to see how this real time traffic works on the nav system.
other than what was previously said , no comments can be added . however i can repeat : in my experience , unless you get a "hard Copy " of the actual special order from the dealer , and a "confirmation Copy " from Torrance to the dealer , there is a reasonable chance your car never get's ordered . additionally , i have never met a Customer Satisfaction Manager at the dealer in my area . maybe this manager also does housekeeping services and is incognito .
Thank you, I did take note of your recommendation and plan on getting the Hard Copy. As good as most Lexus service departments are some of the sales organizations still have this idea that they want to ring-out maximum dollars from you with full pricing or even worse added mark-ups or add-ons.
Of course, I understand them wanting to maximize their profit per unit but they need to focus on long term customer relationship more. Len seems to have really gotten his dealer to that point and look at the amount of repeat business he has done with them.
I have had extremely good luck with the service department at the dealer in San Antonio versus the dealership in Austin where I purchased my original LS even though they are closer to my house.
By the way, that original 98 LS400 with navigation is still in the family and approaching 300k miles without ever having what I would call major repairs. Basically, other then an air conditioning compressor replaced it has been only things that wear out (like O2 sensors) and normal service. However, as I mentioned in the past it has ran on Mobil1 ever since new. We have given it to our daughter and she loves it. With proper dealer service and repair I really do not know how many miles an LS could go. It would not surprise me at all to see one in a few years from the 90s that has went over a million miles. I did see a 93 at JM Lexus in Florida that was well over 400k and that was over three years ago.
Also, I don't what any of you thing but I was sure glad to see the navigation system in the LS460 go back to using a hard drive liked they used in the 98 and 99 rather than DVD-based used on the last models. Although you need the service department to update to a new mapping version on the hard drive units they just seem much faster, etc.
That is incredible. 300K on a 1998 LS ? That's a lot of driving in 8 years.... My 1999 LS has 120K miles and I still feel its way too many miles. And yes, it still rides like new despite the hefty miles (all service are up to date). However, unlike your daughter loving the LS, mine is the complete opposite and has plainly refused to own it. Rather, she wants an Audi TT or something with such looks and fancy (don't ask me why). What does a parent know these days about their teenagers ? :confuse: :surprise: and I have 2 of them at home so you can feel for me
I have seen one in that exact color combo... a very very nice combo IMO. Great choice. So you'd have the sporty suspension and all that goodies... I am really jealous
Incidentally, I was reading the Feb 2007 edition of Car magazine and it had a little caption for the new LS460. The mag claimed the new LS is giving BMW and MB execs fits.... How so ?
The car is winning a lot of German converts, particularly the LWB, in my neck of the woods so that may be what's behind the article.
Perhaps the initial sales results combined with Lexus' impressive lead in the CR reliability projections are an answer to the above question. Sorry for the double post of the below information from another thread but it seems equally pertinent here.
January 07 sales for the four luxury brands:
Lexus LS 460 – 3006
Mercedes S Series – 2078
BMW 7 Series – 1007 (down from 1466 Jan. 06)
Audi A8 – 305 (down from 516 Jan. 06)
Another huge factor that is influential to all car buyers is the predicted reliability of the cars. Consumer Reports ranks 23 luxury sedans for their predicted reliability based on most recent models analyzed (the LS and S are new models). The reliability rankings for these four luxury sedans are: LS=1, A8=14, 7=18, S=22. Ranking of 1 is best and 23 is worst reliability.
Oh man, our Benz dealer here is so arrogant - and is so known for it, you practically have to pass a qualification test to get a test drive from those dorks, let alone buy one. That would be no threat here....
cc: your quote :Oh man, our Benz dealer here is so arrogant - and is so known for it, you practically have to pass a qualification test to get a test drive from those dorks, let alone buy one. That would be no threat here....
-----------------
you made me laugh . here in south Jersey , the MB dealer has a dart board with my picture on it . I failed the qualification test .
Unfortunately, burning a "regular" CD tune to a DVD does not improve the quality of the audio. DVD-A (DVD-AUDIO) provides a 5.1 surround sound track with a sampling frequency higher than a DTS 5.1 surround sound track that you get from a DVD video.
That being said, does anyone know if the new ML system uses the enhanced audio tracks off the DVD-A disc? When the new GS came out, that system did not provide true discrete 5.1 surround but had to be downmixed by the system and reprocessed due to lack of bandwidth. In order to get surround sound you had to force the system to read the 5.1 DTS tracks.