I wouldn't mind an 850 Spyder. The Spring was an Excaliber for frugal 70's secretaries who wanted to cut loose and live dangerously on the way to the office.
There's a guy in (I think) Toronto who restores 500's, 600's and 850's. All the weird old coupes and sedans we've forgotten about. He lists em for sale for absolutely absurdly huge prices. Not sure what they actually sell for.
I'd love one, but for that kinda money I can think of a lot of other things I'd rather have.
You can get decent money for a nicely restored 500 or 600, but I don't think an 850 is worth 50 bucks myself. Nobody cares about them, which is really what value is all about.
That's what *monetary* value's about but it's always good to have a taste for something that nobody else likes. You can satisfy yourself very economically.
A lot of the stuff I like is absolutely exorbitant; if I was a trillionaire I couldn't justify the expense. But I love to find stuff that's at the bottom of its depreciation curve. I admit, in the case of 850's that bottom will probably last forever.
Well, in theory you are right, and of course I've operated on that theory myself, but in the case of the 850 or similar cars, one always wonders if all the people who don't want one are RIGHT about something! I mean, some cars can really torment you, if not outright kill you. It's like when you are in a strange land, and all the locals tell you...oh, no don't eat the RED flower!
might be about as close to a go cart with doors as you can get, at least for 75 bucks.
And they're extremely easy to work on. That's good, because you'll have plenty of opportunities to develop your mechanical skills. My brother got his head gasket R&R time down to something like five minutes using only a pocket knife and duct tape ;-).
I'll never forget the time we went off the road in his 850, on a dirt road in the Santa Cruz mountains. He wasn't going fast, of course, but we went straight when the road went right. The road was banked and we flew over the edge without a clear idea what we were heading towards--a large tree or ditch seemed the likeliest target. We flew over the banking--onto a dirt track that probably went off to a farmer's field. My brother stopped the car and I guess he was expecting some pointed comments about his driving skill and general intelligence, so when I just said "that was fortunate" he broke out laughing.
But really, aside from having to pop the head every now and then--not that difficult--his 850 wasn't that bad. And considering how hard the engine worked--you hit 5 grand routinely just pulling away from a stop sign--it held together pretty well.
Come to think of it, I haven't seen one in years. Back when you did see them they usually looked like they had exceeded their useful life.
I remember my brother lost a cylinder--plug wire came off--on the San Mateo Bridge, not a stretch of road where you want to stop and fiddle with your car. The 850 couldn't afford to lose even a tenth of a horsepower but he made it over the bridge, at something like 25 mph.
Yes, and if 850s were edible as well as biodegradable, they could have solved at least two of the world's problems. Apparently no one realized this during the design stage.
I've never watched a car dissolve before my eyes until I saw my neighbor's 850 actually do that some year ago. It was like giant moths were eating it during the night.
Well, the 850 Spyder was a logical variant on the chassis that had been used successfully (at least they sold) for a sedan and, to perhaps a lesser degree, a coupe.
Fiat had Bertone design them a very pretty body and I'll bet it was a fun cheap ultralight for its day.
I'm sure that it suffered in the US even more than 124's did from buyers who didn't know how to deal with a finicky little car.
I'm not defending the cheap engineering and construction, but I'd say that England probably has some near equivalents - Spitfire maybe?
Well, "pretender" might be a little harsh...accurate, but harsh. I prefer the euphemism "junior sportscar".
Pretty crude--I think the front suspension was a transverse leaf spring, with swing axles in the rear--but with 36 hp you really didn't need an F1 suspension. Well under 2000 lbs. Needed a 5 speed--first was just a creeper gear and fourth was OD, so the ratio spreads were as large as the Grand Canyon. The engine was very simple, not finicky or highly tuned, but it revved easily and made nice noises, had a steel tube header. Steering and shifter were kind of rubbery as I recall, not as nice as the B. Come to think of it, felt a little like an Italian Corvair.
And yes, it was fun on a winding back road. Ever notice how relaxed Hal aka Sebring sounds? That's what sports cars will do for you.
Yes, rubbery all around...that's a good way to describe it, and that's probably why it never struck me as a sportscar....you need more than just the top going down to qualify!
It's really a ragtop on a sedan chassis, ins't it? Like the Mercedes 190SL was...fairly attractive, but hardly sportscar material.
I don't exactly remember the 850's lineage, but humble sedans are somewhere in the family tree. But you could say that about a number of British sports cars, so it's not so much the underpinings as what the engineers do with them. I have a feeling the 850 was tuned more for the market that now drives VW Cabriolets and many Miatas.
Lack of power alone would make the 850 an ersatz sports car. That's probably the reason my brother kept getting rear-ended. Fortunately the back panel could be removed and beaten back into a rough approximation of its original shape. I remember my father doing this with the blunt edge of a long-handled axe.
But oh, no, the Miata is a trueblood sports car of the first order, about as pure sportscar as you can get. Beauty, balance and competence, quite unlike any Ghia or VW Cabriolet or Fiat 850, none of which have "all three" that the Miata does. The Miata is a thoroughbred, it's really not the car's fault that so few people drive them like sportscars.
Fair enough about the Miata, it's just that they seem to be used mostly as cute commuter cars.
We car guys sneer at boulevard sports cars, but at the end of the day soft tuning is a lot more liveable. To me the Miata isn't a good daily driver--too noisy and stiff. (But I lived happily with an MGB for several years, so maybe charm outweighs discomfort.) A nearly-near Karmann Ghia convertible I drove around '71 was a very nice ride, even with the top up.
Just recently I drove a Lincoln LS with the sport package and it was brutal over broken pavement--worse than my boy racer GTP--something I didn't expect from a premium car with superior(?) engineering. What's it designed for, a racetrack I'll never see? It's too much even for the occasional blast through the hills. The LS with standard suspension seems to handle just as well at 8/10ths without beating you up.
What I really need is a four door MGB--or an early Jag sedan.
Never thought of myself as that, especially when I'm working on the dear little #@!*$! darlings! Heaven help me, I love 'em. You'd thought I'd gotten all that out of my system as a teenager, but NOOOOOO, I had to raise two sons who understand that the real genius, Lucas, was not George, but the guy that designed self destructive electrical equipment--that 4V can also stand for 4 barrel as well as 4 valve--and that any top that can be put up in less than 10 minutes by less than 2 people is a marvel of engineering! They also know all the words to "Little Deuce Coupe" "Little GTO" "409" "Hey little Cobra" and "Dead Man's Curve" Have I warped them for life or what?
Spring is teasing us here in KY, she shows up one day, then disappears the next. The Fiat is getting custom fitted for a K&N (will explain later), the Jensen Healey is undergoing some top restoration (new velcro and snaps) and the Sebring is recovering from a climbing cat episode (the cat, however, will NOT be recovering!).
Geez, I thought it was more like 75! Oh yeah, I'll have to add the turbo vane impeller cyclonic airflow dethermalizer to it to squeeze 75 out of it! I can sell you one of those if you'd like, 3 easy payments of $33.33 each? Seriously though, I don't expect to get 50 horses out of it. I just barely got that much when I added a K&N to my Sebring V6. On the Fiat, I'm expecting somewhere between 25 and 35 horses. Hey, it's only an air filter, how much can you realistically expect?
The real bonus is that I'll never have to cram my hand between the coil and breather box again to get that last clamp loose to change the air filter (or stick my longest screwdriver back in there to push it back on). The good folks at The Sports Car Authority in Matthews, NC said the K&N would certainly help my little engine breath. When it came off their dyno back in 1992, it was turning between 145 and 147 horses, so when I put the K&N on it, I'll conveniently leave out the part about them putting in 9.8:1 compression ration pistons, hot cams, flowed heads, and headers and say, Hey! Look how much hp gain I got on this car and all I did was change the air filter (I'm bucking for a position in marketing at K&N).
Ah, spring is almost here. She's really flirting with us today.....in the 80's in KY! Trouble is, I'm going to New England for a week! I bet there's still snow on the ground!
Yes, the 124 is a pain for human hand access, and my friend's turbo is a real bear. So I could see the wisdom of ditching that air box. HP gain will be close to zero, maybe a tiny bit at very high RPM. Better breathing really favors high displacement engines I think.
I can remember that one of the happiest days in my life was the first time that I changed my air filter. (It obvously doesn't take too much to please me). Actually, it was my first dry-paper element air filter, OEM in a new car, touted to filter out more (and smaller) particles than the old syle wet filters ever could. Therefore better for engine life.
What a pleasure, no longer having to do the messy, oily, dirty, environmentally-polluting routine with the older wet filters. I could never be convinced to go back.
Incidently, does anyone remember some aftermarket filter contraption that used a toilet paper roll as the filter media?
Oh, sure...we have a discussion going on those gyro-gearloose ideas....I think it's called the "Franz filter and other gimmicks" in the main discussion list for this board.
Yeah, you're right, the K&N favors big, deep breathing motors, but what the heck? Funny, I've converted every car I now own to a K&N but never did on my 5.0 Mustang!
Regarding the Franz filter line, anyone remember the "ring fire" or "fire ring" spark plugs that you used to get from JC Whitney? "Guaranteed" to increase hp--the ad showed a car at idle sitting still, but with the new plugs, it pulled itself along at 5 mph, proof that they worked. I put a set in my 1973 Opel Kadette (I was only 16 then) and about 2 weeks later it started sputtering and missing and really sounded bad. So, off we go to the local Buick dealer (35 miles away), coughing and kicking all the way. He called me back to the shop about 15 minutes after the car rolled in. I was anxious and he was laughing! He said where in the @#$!* did you get those !#*@&$^ing plugs? Worse piece of trash he'd ever seen! I learned my lesson early (and expensively)!
So, I'll toot my own horn anyway. I just completed the K&N conversion for the Fiat and even though the horsepower only jumped 35 instead of 50 ;-) I wasn't disappointed. It turned out to be a neat conversion and I'll never fight the clips on that air box again. You can see it all at www.hesenergy.net/faulkner Take the Fiat page option, then the K&N Conversion page. I think you'll like it!
Yes! Getting rid of that silly Fiat airbox is a great idea, and well worth the money even if you got ZERO HP increase. I did the same to my Alfa and am very happy with the new access. I even like the vacuum cleaner noise I get on full throttle now. Was it worth $139 to be able to get to the alternator belt without lacerating my hands, or to be able to change the air fitler without using all the tools in my roller chest? You bet!
I remember the most amazing thing about the air filter box on a Fiat 124 I think it was, or maybe a 128...there were about 10 bolts holding it, of THREE different sizes! ARGHHH!
Actually the Romans did nice work but their specialty was stuff like roads and aquaducts--civil engineering. We'll never know how they would have done as car designers but after seeing their work I don't think they would have mixed and matched bolt sizes ;-).
Well, I think they're styling would have been pretty good....sort of pre-fascist, neo-Greek.
The Italians have been banging on metal a long, long time, which might explain why their styling is really the best. As for their engineering, it usually gives us objects which look beautiful but don't always function perfectly. I mean, an Alfa Romeo exhaust manifold from some of the earlier cars could sit in your living room, it is so beautiful. I've also seen machined parts made for Italian warplanes from WWII, and they were beautifully crafted. Which was dumb, really, since plentiful and ugly and cheap is the way to win a war. Oh, well, they are lovers, not fighters!
After the styling job the Romans did on even a simple job like the walls around Rome, I'd have to agree--their styling would be simple but elegant and with some emotion.
Your comment about successful warplanes reminds me of WWII German planes. Not beautiful, rough to the point of looking almost unfinished, but very effective.
Hal looked better and sounded better while in combat.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Miata vs. Z3? I've heard the BMW is something of a disappointment, or at least not good value. I'd be partial to it just because it doesn't sound like a "can of angry gnats" to borrow Shiftright's phrase. I even like the coupe's looks, although the official BMW web site seems reluctant to show the rear of the car.
Well, if you like the coupe's looks, you are very forgiving to BMWs! Most people don't like it, and this is one case where I'm proud to be in the sniveling masses who think it is silly-looking.
Yes, Alfa is coming back, through GM outlets, but personally I don't think it's going to be a very serious effort. Fiat did a lot of damage to the reputation of Italian cars, mostly through lousy service and parts outlets, not due to the cars themselves. I mean, they had their problems, but in Europe Fiat is a dominant force. Fiats should have performed better in this country than they did.
So Alfa has to deal with that, and let's face it, people's expectations about how a new car should perform are currently sitting at very high levels. Can an Alfa be a Camry? I rather doubt it. More like a VW.
Did you take a look at my K&N conversion on my web page? I did that for less than $60 complete. I picked up stuff this week to fabricate a heat shield too, so that'll be the next addition.
As an aging Alfista I'd love to have another one, but...
I don't have the time or the garage space to rebuild an old Spider right now.
Would I buy a new Spider if GM started selling them? I don't think I would the first year or two anyhow. I think that there are some characteristics a car has to have for the U.S. market that aren't necessary in Europe, and I'd like to see all that sorted out first.
Primarily here, I'm thinking of cooling systems that can handle Dallas Texas in heavy traffic and A/C units that will do more than drip cool water on your feet.
I suspect there are a lot of other things, but those two come to mind right away. I want to wait till those have been fixed, and I want the mechanics to get a little experience. I hate going to the dealer and hearing, "Huh. Never heard of that one before."
Lokki---Alfa cooling systems have always been excellent. Again, you may be confusing them (understandably) with Fiat, where there were some problems. But I've driven my Alfa in the Nevada desert in July with the A/C on...it got WARM but never hit the red. No worries with Alfa cooling, they know how to do that at least! Italy is, after all, a pretty warm country, so their performance cars need to do well in that climate.
Actually, I had two Spiders and never had any trouble with either of them, except for second gear synchros, the cigarette lighter, and bending the engine protection grill on the 74. ( I slid into a curb one January morning on some black ice outside Boise....) I had a mechanic who was an Alfisti and I kept on top of the maintenance because I loved them.
My concerns are more about GM than about Alfa. GM just wouldn't understand them, I suspect....
I'd love another Alfa.... my dream car is a boattail spider with an engine built up to about 160 -175 hp....
But I suppose I should shut up and let this topic get back to Fiat....
I always thought the 124 was a beautiful car. I always wanted a chance to drive one, but never got around to it...
Comments
Fake front air intake. Fake old-fashioned roadster look; separate fenders and all.
Siata made some very beautiful machines over the years. The Spring must be an in credible embarassment to the company.
There's a guy in (I think) Toronto who restores 500's, 600's and 850's. All the weird old coupes and sedans we've forgotten about. He lists em for sale for absolutely absurdly huge prices. Not sure what they actually sell for.
I'd love one, but for that kinda money I can think of a lot of other things I'd rather have.
A lot of the stuff I like is absolutely exorbitant; if I was a trillionaire I couldn't justify the expense. But I love to find stuff that's at the bottom of its depreciation curve. I admit, in the case of 850's that bottom will probably last forever.
Okay, 75 bucks then. I'm easy.
And they're extremely easy to work on. That's good, because you'll have plenty of opportunities to develop your mechanical skills. My brother got his head gasket R&R time down to something like five minutes using only a pocket knife and duct tape ;-).
I'll never forget the time we went off the road in his 850, on a dirt road in the Santa Cruz mountains. He wasn't going fast, of course, but we went straight when the road went right. The road was banked and we flew over the edge without a clear idea what we were heading towards--a large tree or ditch seemed the likeliest target. We flew over the banking--onto a dirt track that probably went off to a farmer's field. My brother stopped the car and I guess he was expecting some pointed comments about his driving skill and general intelligence, so when I just said "that was fortunate" he broke out laughing.
As a friend once decribed them --"The build quality of an Italian TV dinner tray!"
But really, aside from having to pop the head every now and then--not that difficult--his 850 wasn't that bad. And considering how hard the engine worked--you hit 5 grand routinely just pulling away from a stop sign--it held together pretty well.
Come to think of it, I haven't seen one in years. Back when you did see them they usually looked like they had exceeded their useful life.
I remember my brother lost a cylinder--plug wire came off--on the San Mateo Bridge, not a stretch of road where you want to stop and fiddle with your car. The 850 couldn't afford to lose even a tenth of a horsepower but he made it over the bridge, at something like 25 mph.
Jeez, with an attitude like that I'm definitely British sports car material.
Fiat had Bertone design them a very pretty body and I'll bet it was a fun cheap ultralight for its day.
I'm sure that it suffered in the US even more than 124's did from buyers who didn't know how to deal with a finicky little car.
I'm not defending the cheap engineering and construction, but I'd say that England probably has some near equivalents - Spitfire maybe?
Pretty crude--I think the front suspension was a transverse leaf spring, with swing axles in the rear--but with 36 hp you really didn't need an F1 suspension. Well under 2000 lbs. Needed a 5 speed--first was just a creeper gear and fourth was OD, so the ratio spreads were as large as the Grand Canyon. The engine was very simple, not finicky or highly tuned, but it revved easily and made nice noises, had a steel tube header. Steering and shifter were kind of rubbery as I recall, not as nice as the B. Come to think of it, felt a little like an Italian Corvair.
And yes, it was fun on a winding back road. Ever notice how relaxed Hal aka Sebring sounds? That's what sports cars will do for you.
It's really a ragtop on a sedan chassis, ins't it? Like the Mercedes 190SL was...fairly attractive, but hardly sportscar material.
Lack of power alone would make the 850 an ersatz sports car. That's probably the reason my brother kept getting rear-ended. Fortunately the back panel could be removed and beaten back into a rough approximation of its original shape. I remember my father doing this with the blunt edge of a long-handled axe.
But oh, no, the Miata is a trueblood sports car of the first order, about as pure sportscar as you can get. Beauty, balance and competence, quite unlike any Ghia or VW Cabriolet or Fiat 850, none of which have "all three" that the Miata does. The Miata is a thoroughbred, it's really not the car's fault that so few people drive them like sportscars.
We car guys sneer at boulevard sports cars, but at the end of the day soft tuning is a lot more liveable. To me the Miata isn't a good daily driver--too noisy and stiff. (But I lived happily with an MGB for several years, so maybe charm outweighs discomfort.) A nearly-near Karmann Ghia convertible I drove around '71 was a very nice ride, even with the top up.
Just recently I drove a Lincoln LS with the sport package and it was brutal over broken pavement--worse than my boy racer GTP--something I didn't expect from a premium car with superior(?) engineering. What's it designed for, a racetrack I'll never see? It's too much even for the occasional blast through the hills. The LS with standard suspension seems to handle just as well at 8/10ths without beating you up.
What I really need is a four door MGB--or an early Jag sedan.
I just noticed...are you related to Fletcher Christian?
And I hope I get #124 before somebody else does, in honor of my '72 coupe.
Spring is teasing us here in KY, she shows up one day, then disappears the next. The Fiat is getting custom fitted for a K&N (will explain later), the Jensen Healey is undergoing some top restoration (new velcro and snaps) and the Sebring is recovering from a climbing cat episode (the cat, however, will NOT be recovering!).
Enjoy!
Hal
The real bonus is that I'll never have to cram my hand between the coil and breather box again to get that last clamp loose to change the air filter (or stick my longest screwdriver back in there to push it back on). The good folks at The Sports Car Authority in Matthews, NC said the K&N would certainly help my little engine breath. When it came off their dyno back in 1992, it was turning between 145 and 147 horses, so when I put the K&N on it, I'll conveniently leave out the part about them putting in 9.8:1 compression ration pistons, hot cams, flowed heads, and headers and say, Hey! Look how much hp gain I got on this car and all I did was change the air filter (I'm bucking for a position in marketing at K&N).
Ah, spring is almost here. She's really flirting with us today.....in the 80's in KY! Trouble is, I'm going to New England for a week! I bet there's still snow on the ground!
Enjoy!
Hal (the relaxed one)
What a pleasure, no longer having to do the messy, oily, dirty, environmentally-polluting routine with the older wet filters. I could never be convinced to go back.
Incidently, does anyone remember some aftermarket filter contraption that used a toilet paper roll as the filter media?
Yeah, you're right, the K&N favors big, deep breathing motors, but what the heck? Funny, I've converted every car I now own to a K&N but never did on my 5.0 Mustang!
Regarding the Franz filter line, anyone remember the "ring fire" or "fire ring" spark plugs that you used to get from JC Whitney? "Guaranteed" to increase hp--the ad showed a car at idle sitting still, but with the new plugs, it pulled itself along at 5 mph, proof that they worked. I put a set in my 1973 Opel Kadette (I was only 16 then) and about 2 weeks later it started sputtering and missing and really sounded bad. So, off we go to the local Buick dealer (35 miles away), coughing and kicking all the way. He called me back to the shop about 15 minutes after the car rolled in. I was anxious and he was laughing! He said where in the @#$!* did you get those !#*@&$^ing plugs? Worse piece of trash he'd ever seen! I learned my lesson early (and expensively)!
Later,
Hal (still very relaxed--'cause Spring is here!)
Enjoy the spring,
Hal
I remember the most amazing thing about the air filter box on a Fiat 124 I think it was, or maybe a 128...there were about 10 bolts holding it, of THREE different sizes! ARGHHH!
The Italians have been banging on metal a long, long time, which might explain why their styling is really the best. As for their engineering, it usually gives us objects which look beautiful but don't always function perfectly. I mean, an Alfa Romeo exhaust manifold from some of the earlier cars could sit in your living room, it is so beautiful. I've also seen machined parts made for Italian warplanes from WWII, and they were beautifully crafted. Which was dumb, really, since plentiful and ugly and cheap is the way to win a war. Oh, well, they are lovers, not fighters!
Your comment about successful warplanes reminds me of WWII German planes. Not beautiful, rough to the point of looking almost unfinished, but very effective.
Another lesson taught to a misspent youth who thought big tail pipes and whump, whump, whump stereos were "performance options"!
I love my (son's) Fiat!
Hal
Hey, you can actually get K&Ns now for Alfa Spiders! Something like $65.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Miata vs. Z3? I've heard the BMW is something of a disappointment, or at least not good value. I'd be partial to it just because it doesn't sound like a "can of angry gnats" to borrow Shiftright's phrase. I even like the coupe's looks, although the official BMW web site seems reluctant to show the rear of the car.
Yes, Alfa is coming back, through GM outlets, but personally I don't think it's going to be a very serious effort. Fiat did a lot of damage to the reputation of Italian cars, mostly through lousy service and parts outlets, not due to the cars themselves. I mean, they had their problems, but in Europe Fiat is a dominant force. Fiats should have performed better in this country than they did.
So Alfa has to deal with that, and let's face it, people's expectations about how a new car should perform are currently sitting at very high levels. Can an Alfa be a Camry? I rather doubt it. More like a VW.
Later,
Hal
Shifty
I don't have the time or the garage space to rebuild an old Spider right now.
Would I buy a new Spider if GM started selling them? I don't think I would the first year or two anyhow. I think that there are some characteristics a car has to have for the U.S. market that aren't necessary in Europe, and I'd like to see all that sorted out first.
Primarily here, I'm thinking of cooling systems that can handle Dallas Texas in heavy traffic and A/C units that will do more than drip cool water on your feet.
I suspect there are a lot of other things, but those two come to mind right away. I want to wait till those have been fixed, and I want the mechanics to get a little experience. I hate going to the dealer and hearing, "Huh. Never heard of that one before."
My concerns are more about GM than about Alfa. GM just wouldn't understand them, I suspect....
I'd love another Alfa.... my dream car is a boattail spider with an engine built up to about 160 -175 hp....
But I suppose I should shut up and let this topic get back to Fiat....
I always thought the 124 was a beautiful car. I always wanted a chance to drive one, but never got around to it...