Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press



  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Again the same old debate. Basic transportation vs equal transportation.

    The HCH is equivalent to the EX Civic. If you want more efficient, more basic transportation from Honda then the new Fit-type hybrid from Indiana next year will fit the bill.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Again the same old debate. Sport transportation vs economy transportation.

    The HCH is equivalent to the LX Civic.

    Add a sunroof and 16" wheels and tires to the Hybrid and it is equivalent to the EX. It also adds $1500 additional cost to the Hybrid. :P
  • peraltaperalta Member Posts: 94
    I have a 2006 Highlander Hybrid AWD and 2006 sienna FWD.

    On 100% highway, the sienna is surprisingly as economical as the HH, sienna even beat the HH on some trips.

    In the city, the sienna drops its FE to about 20 MPG while the HH maintains 30 MPG.

    When it's time to fill up the tank, the HH gets 31 MPG for each tank while the Sienna gets between 22-25 MPG depending on percentage of highway vs city driven.

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hybrid Supra wins endurance race

    Toyota can now lay claim to having fielded the first hybrid vehicle to win an endurance race. The Denso SARD Supra HV-R won the Tokachi 24-hour race in convincing fashion, finishing 19 laps up on the second place car for a total of 616. The hybridized Super GT-spec Supra took the pole, lead all day, and opened up a significant gap in the final hours of the competition. It also had the fastest lap of the event. Powered by a 4,4480cc 3UZ-FE V8 augmented with a regenerative braking system, in-wheel electric motors in front, and a larger single electric motor for the rear wheels, the Supra HV-R was the sole GT-class entrant in this year's race. With reports saying that a production version of the FT-HS concept is on the way, we should be able to get a taste of what a streetable hybrid sports car is like in due time. In the meantime, Toyota has gone out and shown what a motorsports-prepared hybrid is capable of.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    larsb, this is the kind of thing I'd expect you'd blog about, but on visiting your CarSpace page I notice you haven't noticed that you can set up a blog!

    Mine happens to be called the Alternate Route if anyone wants to drop by and leave a comment ;)

    Setting it up is a snap, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    WELL, I wanted it more for the masses than for someone who might stumble upon my little invisible blog !!

    It's "Hybrid News" here and this is where that sort of news goes, right?

    Here's more Hybrid News:

    IL buyers getting a tax break?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,372
    The blogs aren't invisible, just new!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Behind the Wheel | 2008 Lexus LS 600h L
    Conspicuous Consumption With Green Illusions

    Certainly, this hybrid Lexus is one of the quietest, most comfortable, best-built sedans around. It has every imaginable safety system and creature comfort. The navigation system is first-rate. The Mark Levinson audio system is amazing. And the optional ($12,675) Executive Package is the hands-down — or feet-up? — coolest feature. It includes rear seats that recline, heat and cool, along with a right-hand chair with a steeper recline, massage functions and a powered ottoman for the full mini-Maybach effect.

    Yet every compliment you can lavish on this impressive ride, minus the all-wheel drive, applies equally to the nonhybrid version.

    So why would anyone spend an extra $30,000 for this car? Certainly, the performance gains of 12-cylinder sedans aren’t always justified by their enormous premiums. Many people buy them for that V-12 badge on the fender, the exclusive message it sends. Ditto for the Lexus, but the roughly 2,000 people who’ll line up for the hybrid won’t be broadcasting their superior power, but their superior morals, however illusory.

    If that’s not you, stick with the Lexus LS 460 L. Enjoy a back-seat massage and relax. You’ll know that you’ve got the better car — one that’s equally fast and frugal, but also weighs less and handles better.

    You can actually park that terrific gas-only Lexus in the garage and have $30,000 to buy a Prius hybrid, with cash left over. Save the LS for special occasions and run errands in the Toyota at more than double the mileage. While Lexus plays the hybrid game, it’s the Prius that takes care of business.
  • caazcaaz Member Posts: 209
    Sounds like Mr. True needs to give me a call....tonight...July 17th, i just purchased a used 2004 civic hybrid...im in Orange county on the 91 freeway....exact freeway true uses if he's in Riverside...i reset the gas readout to zero....drove home 30 miles....set my cruise control on 69 mph...got home and it showed 53.9 mpg...if he drops the lawsuit..i'll lend him my extra 2.9 mpg...imagine the mpg i'll recieve after i really learn how to drive it since this was my 1st ever experience driving a hybrid and only went 30 miles..i guess that says something about his driving since he has 6,000 miles on his
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Li-iOn Prius not yet dead?

    Toyota to test Hybrid Prius plug-in with li-ion packs
    July 20th, 2007 by Peter

    Toyota to test Hybrid Prius plug-in with li-ion packs
    As you know Toyota have been planning a next-generation Hybrid Prius, but there have been many delays. The main reason for these delays is all to do with the li-ion batteries, Toyota were not happy with this and decided to scrap the lithium ion batteries in their Prius cars.

    However news has now come to light that Toyota has asked for permission so that they may test a prototype of a plug-in Prius on the roads of Japan, and guess what? The Prius is said to have li-ion batteries.

    It seems that Toyota cannot make their mind up.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hybrids in Berkeley preview of America in ten years?

    As Berkeley, Calif., goes, so -- eventually -- goes the nation. As frightening as this may sound to some, it's a fact borne out by history. Opposing the Vietnam War, spearheading ecological concerns, mandating energy-efficient buildings, banning smoking in public places, demanding equal access for the disabled -- these causes were all dismissed as "Berkeley radical thinking" in their time. Today, they've all long since been integrated into mainstream America. While some might still quibble with one or another of them, in retrospect, most of us would now regard these causes as honorable and thoroughly American.

    Today there's another revolution brewing in Berkeley, albeit a much quieter one. No matter where you look, the streets of this small university town are teeming with hybrid vehicles -- most of them made by Toyota, with a lesser number from Honda, and practically none, I'd point out, made by that blundering straggler, General Motors.

    If Berkeley proves as prescient in this "radical" trend as it has in prior ones, the environmental implications are vast. For one, it signals the beginning of the end for conventional internal-combustion powered vehicles, many years earlier than auto industry analysts and other in-the-box thinkers would have us believe. Then again, these are the same folks who saw nothing shortsighted about GM cashing in on SUVs while leaving their advanced vehicles program to molder.

    The only bad news is that the American auto industry will likely be at the tail end of this revolution, watching foreign competitors write the conventional car's epitaph. This is largely thanks to the monumental stupidity, shortsightedness and greed of General Motors executives, who preferred to wallow in the lucrative SUV trough while foreign competitors did their homework. Maybe those GM folks should've gotten out of the boardroom now and then, and taken a drive around Berkeley.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I cannot imagine that Toyota has not been testing the Prius and other vehicles with Li-Ion batteries for a long time. After all the LS600h was first said to be having Li-Ion. I think this writer is behind the times. Putting Li-Ion batteries in a test vehicle and selling one to the public may be years apart or never.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "Hybrid Interest Wanes as Buyers Consider Diesels, Study Says - Daily Auto Insider"

    Younger buyers are looking more to diesels
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    And who said the younger generation was not Smart? Sounds like they are looking beyond the hype and glamor.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The key point in the article:

    "While hybrid sales are steadily increasing, they continue to face competition for market share against an increasing offering of other alternative powertrains and fuels options."

    All these "supposed diesel buyers" must be wondering what their options are for diesel competitors for hybrids right now.........What 2007/2008 diesel cars are for sale right now in the USA?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    While diesels are part of the solution, GM has words of caution for the enthusiasts.

    GCC reports Lutz's comments for the prospects on diesel vehicles

    The good news is the standard [Tier 2 Bin 5] can be met. The bad news is that meeting these standards is about another $2,000 to $2,800 of emissions hardware and control systems on top of the already existing premium of a diesel engine over a gasoline engine which is anywhere between $1,000 and $2,000.

    Making vehicles Bin 5 Tier 2 compliant is not the answer to a low-cost CAFE solution...I’m just cautioning you, do not assume that the diesel engine is the panacea and it’s going to get everybody to a fleet of 36 mpg.

    In fact, even with Euro 5 [a more lenient standard than Tier 2 Bin 5], many European producers, including ourselves, are starting to ask ourselves, “Are the buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 - $4,500 premium to get a diesel engine which...the tougher the emissions you meet with diesels, the more the fuel economy advantage of diesels versus the modern gasoline engine shrinks?”

    —Bob Lutz


    At best, the diesel engine in the future is going to be tremendously expensive, it’s going to have a sharply reduced fuel economy advantage over gasoline engines, and it’s not going to be a fifty state solution. It’s going to be minus California and minus whatever states adopt California standards.

    —Bob Lutz
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Mercedes has 4 fine 2007 diesel options available today at a dealer near you. You could have the luxury of a Mercedes that gets 800 miles on a tank of diesel. Three very fine SUVs, arguably the best on the planet all have the wonderful diesel engine available for less than $1000 premium over the gas engine. In fact the GL320 CDI is lower priced than the gas GL. I just cannot make up my mind which one to choose.

    Here you go a GL320 CDI MSRP $2500 less than the gas version.

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2007/mercedesbenz/glclass/100838041/prices.html?actio- n=1
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    For Bob Klutz. No one will pay a $5000 premium for a diesel Aveo. If I remember correctly it was the same Klutz that used the same argument against GM building hybrids. As much as I have liked my GM trucks they are losing me with his ignorant statements. I think he is Bill Ford in disguise. Both dumber than a box of rocks. Must be nice to get a job from Dad or granddad.
  • gtoskylinegtoskyline Member Posts: 68
    I don't think Toyota had ever said anything about giving up Li-ion battery or delay for that matter. Toyota has been testing Li-ion battery for years. If Toyota CEO said it is ready to use, then I believe it will be ready.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    He said just the opposite. They are pulling the plug on Li-Ion for the Prius for MY 2009. Who knows beyond that. I am sure they are still testing and scratching their heads.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually he didn't say anything... all the information we've been getting has been from 'reports in the Japanese press' without attribution.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    OK Gary, he who always has said hybrids are too expensive for the average buyer.....

    The only diesels you can give me are high-priced MBs?

    How is that going to help the diesel cause?

    My point was that the JD Powers study/article said more people in 2007 are interested in diesel as a fuel and fewer people interested in hybrids, but the options are just reversed - there are far more hybrids avail than diesels, RIGHT NOW.

    And the "younger buyers" mentioned in the headline - the 16-25 year old buyers - how are they going to afford a MB diesel?

    Like I said two years ago - for diesel to take off in the USA, other manufacturers besides MB and VW are going to have to offer competitively priced, stylish, modern clean diesel sedans, in both coupe and 5-passenger models, which can directly compete with the long list of available hybrids.

    Until that happens, all these "new buyer intent" studies are just wasted paper.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Most of the hybrids offered by Toyota are overpriced and not cost effective when compared to gas only. The Prius and TCH being the exception. When compared to the gas versions, Mercedes diesels are better positioned. No they are not for the average buyer. Neither is the HH, RX400h, GS450h & LS600h. If the cheapest Toyota hybrid is sold to the $85k per year demographic, how much do you need to afford the expensive hybrids? Who can justify $65k for a GS hybrid? You can get a great E320 CDI for under $50k. Will the GS450h get 37 MPG on the highway? Will the GS450h get a combined 30 MPG as most E320 CDI drivers are reporting? Most of all can you run any hybrid on 100% homegrown fuel? Mercedes biodiesel

    The article is simply stating that many young buyers have lost interest in hybrids and are now interested in diesel as an alternative. With little new coming out as hybrid and a promise of many new diesels it will give buyers a choice they have not had in the past.

    I look forward to a matchup between an Accord diesel and the Camry Hybrid. The Prius will remain in its own little world. I see Honda putting their effort into diesel and pulling back on hybrids. They tried and lost money. Something Honda does not like to do. Honda is doing very well in Europe with their diesels and will bring that wave of success to the USA.

    And the "younger buyers" mentioned in the headline - the 16-25 year old buyers - how are they going to afford a MB diesel?

    I see many under 25 drivers in Escalades & Denalis with $10k sets of wheels and tires. They can afford most anything living at home with a good job.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Good news...the Camry Hybrid will now cost less.

    A recent JD Power finding that hybrid popularity is giving way to more interest in diesel powertrains may have some legs to it after all. Even though gas prices have been hovering above $3 for months, Toyota is still trimming the entry price of its 2008 Camry Hybrid by about $1,000. To help pay for the unexpected price drop, Toyota eliminated standard items like the JBL audio system, leather steering wheel and shift knob, Homelink, and electrochromic mirror with compass. $25,860 will now get you a hybrid powertrain plus steel wheels, and a single CD player, which aren't exactly luxury components. Unless the folks from Aichi, Japan have achieved manufacturing efficiencies from increased hybrid output, this could be bad news for Toyota and the many automakers on the precipice of introducing their own hybrid systems.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Like the Prius this may be the signal that they are going to ramp up production and aim for a larger group of buyers.

    Now that they've hit the 1 Million mark in hybrid vehicles I'm certain that whatever developmental costs they had budgeted are now covered. IF that budgeted cost is now extinguished then it flows to the bottom line as profit or it can be partially used to lower the MSRP.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Plug In Prius

    Want to be the first on your block with a $50,000 Toyota Prius?

    Head to Hybrids Plus in Boulder, Colo., and leave your Prius with their technicians. Go skiing or something, come back in three or four days with a check for $24,000 and you will have one of the nation's very few plug-in hybrids that should easily get 100 miles per gallon.

    A plug-in is an ordinary hybrid with an electric motor and gasoline engine that has been modified -- usually by upgrading its battery pack or adding more batteries -- so it can go a lot farther on electric power than it normally does. On Thursday, a study funded by the Natural Resources Defense Council and a power-industry group lined up behind advocates in dubbing plug-ins the car of the future, albeit the distant future.

    That study said greenhouse gas emissions and domestic oil consumption would drop sharply if plug-in hybrid technology became widespread by 2050. Mass production of the vehicles, however, is years away.

    Still, Bay Area Prius lovers can have their very own supergreen car right now -- for a price.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    Unfortunately, removing $2000 of options (based on LE price list) when dropping the base price by $1000 sure looks like a $1000 price increase to me. The hybrid premium is going up rather than down.

    Since production has been ramping up, we should be seeing a drop in the premium. Maybe the demand is too great so Toyota has no impetus to drop the prices? From what I understand, here in Oregon, the gas Camry isn't the largest selling Toyota -- the Prius is!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I have a feeling, only a feeling, that production capacity of the hybrid components may be limited. The Prius gets first shot at them, then the TCH then the HH. just supposition though.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    $24k is way too expensive. Here's a quote from the CEO of A123 Systems. They are the company developing the battery pack for the Chevy Volt.

    After focusing on fleet testing this year, A123systems intends to market the PHEV conversion modules starting in 2008.

    It will be certified to meet all applicable new car test standards and will be installed by trained mechanics in less than 2 hours, without any changes to the underlying electronics, mechanics or materially useable space of the production hybrid other than the installation of the plug in the rear bumper.

    The applicable market in the US for standard production hybrids will be approaching 1 million through the course of this year. With almost two dozen hybrid models expected by the end of 2008, there will be 5 million standard hybrids on the road by 2010. At an initial 40 mile module installed price of $10,000 supported with a $3,500 tax credit, the payback period for a fleet owner with $3.00/gallon gas is 2.5 years, against an expected life of 10 or more years. The payback period for the average commuter driving 11,000 miles per year would be 5.5 years. These calculations place no value on the net reduction of approximately 100 tons of carbon dioxide and other emissions over the life of the vehicle and take no account of the cost reductions which could accrue from additional materials research and increasing production volumes.
    —David Vieau
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Less for Less 2008 Camry Hybrid

    Has Toyota achieved cost reduction of hybrid components and is passing the lower costs on to the consumer?

    Nope :blush:
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Remember though:

    A $1000 savings to get into a hybrid is still a $1000 savings.

    Toyota wants to get more people into the hybrid Camry, and lowering the "out the door price" of the base model will help sales.

    I can tell you right now that if my base model 2007 would have been $1000 cheaper without the extra frills it would have made my bank account about $1000 happier and I still would have bought the car.

    Less focus on whizbang and more focus on the awesomeness of hybridology.

    The 50% size and cost reduction Toyota has ordered from the engineers on the hybrid components is not here yet - look for that on the next Gen Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The problem as I have read it, the new base TCH costs $1000 less and they removed $2000 in amenities. How is that a good deal? Except for Toyota?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Remember, Gary, that $2000 you speak of is for Toyota MSRP options. Do it yourself and save !!

    Let's see:

    Upgraded stereo from Audio Express: $400
    Leather steering wheel wrap, self-install: $35
    Leather-topped shifter knob, self-install: $40
    Alloy wheels are an unnecessary option. $0

    Total cost to the buyer for "$2000 in Toyota factory options" is about $475, and you save $1000 on the base price over the 2007 model. You are $525 in the Black.

    And Toyota gets to sell more lower-cost hybrids.

    Wait a second - isn't that what people complained about with the HCH: that "Honda "souped it up" with unnecessary options to raise the price and raise their profit? I know for a fact I heard that complaint from the hybrid naysayers about 3 years ago.

    Now Toyota takes the opposite tact and "downgrades" the options and lowers the price and now people complain AGAIN !!!

    You can't have it both ways - you either get a souped up more expensive hybrid or a base model which is less luxury and more value for your $1000 saved !!!!

    Let me repeat myself: The Toyota-brass-ordered "cut hybrid system costs and size" has not yet been implemented. When THAT happens and the price does not go down, let me know.

    P.S. From the Toyota perspective, it probably cost them less than $1000 for the "options" they dropped off the base car. So they come out ahead on the bottom line, get to sell more TCHs, get to say "hey we dropped the price $1000", and the car buyer gets to save at least $500 too. That's known as a WIN/WIN.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    The hidden price increase can be seen by comparing the price difference between the 2007 hybrid and the XLE (closest gas equivalent) with that of the 2008 hybrid and the 2008 LE (closest gas equivalent).

    In our case we canceled a base 2008 we had on order for a 2007 (only available loaded, alas).

    At least around here they don't seem to be having problems selling every one that gets delivered, so no impetus to having a lower-end version for Toyota at all. Why do you think that 90% of the delivered cars have almost every option installed? I expect most of the 2008s will be the same, and will now show a $1000 bump in MSRP over the 2007s.

    Lets see a CE equivalent hybrid for $23,000. That would be the deal for those that can't afford the current TAH.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote larsb-
    Now Toyota takes the opposite tact and "downgrades" the options and lowers the price and now people complain AGAIN !!!

    You can't have it both ways - you either get a souped up more expensive hybrid or a base model which is less luxury and more value for your $1000 saved !!!! -end

    No, you can't have it both ways. It is time to compare the Camry Hybrid to the Camry CE when determining the cost premium for the hybrid. Some individuals have persisted in comparing the TCH to the XLE since it was only available with XLE comparable equipment.

    $19,620 Camry CE automatic
    $25,200 Camry Hybrid

    $5,580 Hybrid Premium

    No, you can't have it both ways.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Let's not get crazy......I understand the POWER that the HYBRID PREMIUM has on the NaySayers, but let's not go overboard.

    I went to Edmunds and compared Standard Features on the 2007 CE and the 2007 TCH - the 2008 specs not there yet.

    If you read the article YOU POSTED MOPARBAD, the closest non-hybrid Camry to the TCH is the LE V6, not the low-end CE:

    “The JBL system alone is a $750 option, and the wheels are another $300 when ordered as options on the 2007 Camry LE V6, the closest non-hybrid style to the Camry Hybrid,” said Rosten.

    At the same time, Toyota increased the price of the non-hybrid Camry, the best-selling car in America for several years, by $100 across the board, with no changes in content, putting its starting price of the 2008 Camry LE V6 at $24,260.

    So that means the "hybrid premium" (which is a term I despise even mentioning) sits at a cool $940. And if you add in the $650 Hybrid Tax Credit, it drops to a smidgeonly $290

    To drive my point home better, here are a few things that come standard on the TCH which the CE does not have (and in some cases is not even an option on the CE)

    29 more horsepower
    Deceleration Fuel Cut-Off
    CVT tranny
    Trip Computer
    Traction Control
    8-way Power Driver Seat
    Remote Power Door Locks
    Cargo Net ($34 option for the CE)
    Keyless Ignition
    Dual Zone Climate Control for Front Passenger and Driver

    As the article points out, the closest in equipment to the TCH is the LE V6. So trying to slap a lowly CE into the conversation ain't gonna fly, bubba.......
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    The TCH is a 4, and the 2008 is equipped pretty much identically to the LE except for the dual zone climate control on the TCH which isn't even an option on the LE. The best comparison is to the 2008 LE 4 with automatic. This will be $21,075, so the premium is $4,125. If you want to consider the tax credit (I don't think it should be, BTW), the premium is $3,485.

    The 2007 TCH is equipped more like the 2007 XLE, except for the fake wood and reclining rear seats. It's 24,900, so the premium of the 2007 TCH is $1300, much less! If you consider the tax credit, and turn back the clock one year, there was no premium at all!

    The 2007 looks like a much better buy (which is why I canceled my 2008 order and bought a 2007), but it does beg the question -- is the XLE worth $3,825 more than an LE?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Sure it's a 4-cyl, but with the hybrid drivetrain, it accelerates much more like the LE V6, which is why the writer of the article used that comparison.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The base TCH is more equivalent to the Base LE not the CE.
    The differences between ICE versions of the CE and the LE are..
    ..keyless remote
    ..power driver's seat

    and as larsb noted there is the traditional $2000-$2200 bump for improved power ( V6 over 4c ). Then there's the fact that you get this power with the fuel economy of a Corolla but the room of a Camry.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    OK, I'll give you guys that it is best to compare to the V6 regarding performance, but the cost of the TCH 4 is better compared to the cost of the 4 in the LE rather than the V6.

    And looking at it another way, a purchaser in the market for economy would choose the 4 over the V6 anyway
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Here's the brilliance of this product placement. It's right in the middle between the 4c and the V6. There are a lot of buyers who will not consider a 4c anything since it's 'underpowered'. OTOH most Camry/Accord/Altima shoppers normally don't search for the power of a V6 they only look at the relative economy.

    This vehicle serves both groups and falls right in the middle of the pricing structure of both.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    As you pointed out, hybrid buyers really aren't placing a big priority on power. With that being the case I wonder how difficult or costly it would have been for Toyota to put the 1.8L Corolla engine in the TCH? It seems that with the supplemental electric drive it would have had comparable power to the 2.4L that's in the standard 4 cyl Camry.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I'd seen that article before. The new epa mileage ratings make the hybrids seem less impressive but actually more cost effective. I suspect that is lost on most car shoppers. I'm also very interested in these new diesels that are supposed to start showing up in the US. I've read reports that stated the technology required for them to meet US emission standards has negatively impacted their mpg advantage. If that ends up being the case they wont be as popular as I had originally anticipated.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Merely 49% more hybrids sold in June 2007 than June 2006....

    If that's "cooling off" I wonder what HOT is?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    My feeling that this is the position of the new Prius trio in about 18-20 months.
    1.5L Prius small sedan
    1.8L Prius hatch Gen 3
    2.4L Prius utility vehicle
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Wait'll GM's hybrids start hitting the market in good volume. Just by its sheer size it should overwhelm whatever small quantity is leaving with the Insight and HAH.

    The HCH is solid as are the FEH and MMH. Add a Sienna hybrid to the mix next spring.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    If gas prices stay high it will be interesting to see what's available in a couple of years. Most people don't appreciate this point of view but I hope gas prices do stay high.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    OK, the prices are in. They dropped the MSRP of the base by $1000, and it will take $1150 for the "UP" package to restore the missing features. So the effective price increase is only $150. This is only $50 more than the other Camry models, but it still isn't cutting the hybrid premium.
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