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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press



  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Well, if the only reason one buys a Hybrid of any type is to save money, no matter what from, that is pretty stupid.

    Wanting to take responsibility for our pollution, and do something positive to encourage alternative fuels and technology is usually the foremost reason for buying them.

    Aside from that, he makes an [non-permissible content removed] out of himself taking that huge leap of faith that gasoline stays at $3.00 per gallon for several years.... ;)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    The Camry Hybrid is "the most economically viable" hybrid to be released yet, when comparing it to other non-hybrid cars in it's own family.

    Even using his own shaky math assumptions, he comes down to this conclusion:

    So if you buy your Camry hybrid before April 1 and your accountant says you can take the credit, your true added cost for the hybrid will be only $900, with a payback time, then, of about four and a half years.

    That's better than ANY other "real" hybrid vehicle which has a non-hybrid brother or sister.

    And Toyota has pledged to cut the HSD system size in half and the hybrid premium in half, and a 90+ MPG Prius. Can hardly wait for the future of these hybrids !!!
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Hybrid Sales Slip

    No surprise here, without government handouts, hybrids are not so attractive a purchase.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    From your story:

    "Sales and marketing officials said lower gas prices and production changes at the Japanese automaker were other factors that cut into its industry leading gas/electric hybrid sales in October. "

    All smaller cars did worse in October because of gas prices and SUVs improved. Idiotic US car buyers have SHORT memories. That says nothing negative about hybrids.

    The proof in the pudding will be this:

    If other carmakers besides Toyota have solid sales figures in their hybrid line (Honda Civic Hybrid, Ford Escape) in November and Toyota yet Toyota hybrids keep slipping, then THAT will indicate that there are a lot of fools who relied on the tax break to decide to buy a Toyota hybrid.

    If "all hybrids" are down in November, and other small cars are down and trucks and SUVs are up again, then that is merely a reflection of gas prices and not a reflection on the hybrid tax break situation.

    I have said before that it's "just the fool" who relies on a tax break to make the decision on what car to buy. Buy the hybrid car for what it gives you - cleaner air, better gas mileage, and higher resale value.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Toyota seeks tax breaks

    3.4 billion in profits for just one quarter and Toyota requests tax incentives for it's hybrid vehicles! :surprise: :sick:

    If Toyota desires incentives for it's vehicles it can afford to provide them from it's own earnings.

    Toyota reports slow sales of popular hybrid, blaming waning buyer interest on absence of full federal tax break.

    Hybrid buyers buy for the tax break, not lower emissions, I knew it all along. :P
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Toyota is only saying that the tax break which lasts longer for the "slow selling" companies is not fair for the company who sells a lot of hybrids and the tax break runs out really fast.

    Basically, with the current tax code, Toyota is now being "punished" for selling 60,000 hybrids so quickly !!!

    Trust me: Ford and GM will be crying too when the tax breaks expire on THEIR tiny offerings of a couple of slow-selling hybrids.

    Even the President wants the tax breaks extended - not just Toyota. It's not greed, it's the ENVIRONMENT.

    P.S. Name me ONE SINGLE hybrid buyer who bought ONLY for the tax break and I will indicate to you a fool.

    P.S.P.S. "diesel buyers buy for the exhaust smell"
    you see how broad generalizations are goofy? :shades:
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    The biggest problem I had with the tax break is that, with it, the Prius was selling at MSRP or maybe even a little higher. We all know that most cars can be purchased at closer to invoice. So essentially this tax break was being split between the purchaser and the car dealership. I understand the sentiment in encouraging people to buy "greener" vehicles but I don't think our tax code should be subsidizing the car dealerships. The way I see it there is a fundamental flaw in this tax break approach to encouraging people to buy hybrids.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    No's 1 and 10 are hybrids.

    CR article
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Not a hybrid to be found on Edmunds list, and they actually list a % value.

    Top 10 Cars with Highest Residual Value - No Hybrids

    Edmunds Top 10 Cars with Best Residual Values and there is not a hybrid or a Toyota on the list (well, there is a Lexus).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Dueling stats..en garde..
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    That is exactly right. If the hybrids cannot sell on their advantages, so be it. Toyota crying about the tax breaks is really funny. Now they have to sell on merit not government incentives.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    They're doing fine. With one month to go in the CY the results will be just in line with last year, regards the Prius and HCH ( see Nov sales YTD ) and of course the TCH is all additional volume.

    Now however in the next two years there's going to be an awful lot of new entries in the field from Nissan to Ford to GM to Honda to Hyundai. If by 'hybrid' you mean 'Toyota Hybrids' then Press' crying as you say is just a way to keep the playing field level now that everyone has a clean vehicle option.

    Toyota and Honda were first and pushed the technology envelope now the rest are coming around to see the merits - or have just been able to master the technology.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Hybrid Skeptic Nissan

    I would just say they are cautious.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Hybrid Sales Slow

    The sales are slowing without the prices falling.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247

    "Only" 18,117.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Hybrids,Flex Fule Vehicles Not Likely To Impact Energy Use

    quote- Many of the U.S. auto industry's environmental efforts, including plug-in hybrids and flexible-fuel vehicles, will have little affect on the nation's energy use or output of greenhouse gases if the latest government forecast of energy trends through 2030 holds true.-end

  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    quote larsb - sales are not down-end quote

    Question for you larsb- Are you telling us that 26,249 sales compared to 18,117 is NOT a decrease?

    quote San Francisco Chronicle-Car makers sold 26,249 hybrids in August, the same month the average price of gasoline nationwide hit $3 per gallon. Since then, gasoline prices have fallen 24 percent, to $2.28 per gallon, and hybrids sales have dropped 31 percent to 18,117 in November, according to
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    TRADITIONALLY - car makers compare months in current year to the same calendar months in the previous calendar year. Not August sales versus November sales.

    See this page for a good breakdown and 'splanation:

    November Hybrid Sales up 13.8% year-on-year

    Certain months, because of consumer buying patterns, are traditionally larger sales months than other months.

    And in August, as I recall, the gas prices were going through the roof, and more people were buying smaller cars. During those periods, trends cannot be established because they are anomalies in the sales pattern.

    Overall, hybrids in 2006 will outsell hybrids in 2005. Thus sales will not be "down."
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    Larry is correct. Hybrids will be up for 2006 over 2005.

    When gasoline goes up next year to $4 per gallon, they will go through the roof! ;)
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    The year-on-year numbers make sense and are a good measure.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    quote San Francisco Chronicle-Car makers sold 26,249 hybrids in August, the same month the average price of gasoline nationwide hit $3 per gallon. Since then, gasoline prices have fallen 24 percent, to $2.28 per gallon, and hybrids sales have dropped 31 percent to 18,117 in November, according to

    Now that is truly selective choice of statistics to prove an invalid point. August is traditionally the single best sales month for many manufacturers, volume is the highest. November is traditionally one of the worst months each year, maybe the worst month. To take this writer's logic to it's extreme limit Nov '06 hybrid sales were infinitely higher than those.... in May 1998.

    An equally invalid statistical choice would be to look at TOTAL hybrid sales this year, which are up dramatically, as a predictor of say one vehicle's outlook such as the HAH ... but then there are several more vehicle options for the market.

    All-in-all a dubious use of time.

    The market is too seasonal from month to month to look at one single snap shot. At the end of the year compare each model against last year.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Hybrid Chery

    Would be interesting if Chery would export this hybrid.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Money Losing Nissan Hybrid

    "Hybrids today are not a very viable economic proposition," said Dominique Thormann, Nissan North America's senior vice president for administration and finance. "It's still a loss-making proposition. ... It's unprofitable."

    I wonder if Toyota makes any profit on hybrids?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I wonder if Toyota makes any profit on hybrids?

    That is the $64k question. The hybrids give them the green image that allows them to sell their big line-up of gas guzzling trucks and SUVs. I can guarantee they are making a killing off of them. It is a problem some of the other auto makers would love to have.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    No other car maker is as efficient as Toyota. Just because NISSAN cannot build a hybrid at a profit does not mean Toyota cannot.

    'Yota would not have 750,000 hybrids on the world's roads if they were losing money on them - be sensible people. They have stockholders and boards to answer to just like any other car company.

    They have challenged their engineers to take half the cost and size away from the hybrid components. That's to make MORE money not to FINALLY make money.

    I can post dozens of articles where Toyota says they are making money on hybrids. Nissan and GM and others who naysay that are merely jealous of the success of the Toyota hybrid family.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Big question is what are they (Toyota) paying their worker's and what deals (incentives) were made for them to open assembly plants by the governments where the plants are located. Toyota has expanded drastically in the last ten years. Over the next few years they should start to experience the problems associated with over expansion. It is easier to experience large expansions then to maintain existing large multinational manufacturing organizations. What are the hidden costs? How will they handle disposing of the used batteries and chemicals used to produce these hybrid components? We will see this come to light in about 5 to 10 more years. What impact will this have on the environment? And most importantly who will pay for it?
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    'Yota would not have 750,000 hybrids on the world's roads if they were losing money on them - be sensible people. They have stockholders and boards to answer to just like any other car company.

    Toyota has stockholders ergo hybrids are profitable is not the conclusion I'd be willing to bet my paycheck on.

    Ford has stockholders, Ford sells hybrids, and Ford is losing ton's of money, literally ton's of money. :surprise:

    I suspect that Toyota does make a profit on the hybrids it sells in 2006 and 2007, however, even if each hybrid sold was sold at a loss, the percentage of hybrids sold by Toyota compared to the total number of vehicles sold by Toyota would certainly allow Toyota to be extremely profitable despite losing money on hybrids.

    Even when Ford and GM were making money hand over fist they were losing money on small cars and making a fortune on trucks. And yet, they have stockholders and boards to answer to.

    I am sensible.


    No other car maker is as efficient as Toyota

    The two most efficient auto plants in North America are not Toyota plants. Most Efficient Auto Plants

    Last but not least....

    No other car maker is as efficient as Toyota.

    Nissan North Americas Most Efficient Automaker

    Factoring everything together, Harbour Report declared Nissan North America's most efficient automaker. Its plants required 28.46 hours of labor. According to analyst Harbour, that gives the Japanese manufacturer a $300- to $450-per-vehicle cost advantage over less efficient automakers. -end
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    It pays to read all of those articles:

    "The good news for GM, Ford and DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group is that all three made progress in 2005, narrowing the efficiency gap with North American plants operated by Toyota, Honda and Nissan."

    What that means is, they are catching up. Not better, not more efficient, it means their "best of the best" are behind, and moving up, not on the same level.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Confuscious say: "One can be a sensible person in general, and yet at times have ideas which are not sensible."

    And efficiency can be measured many different ways, so it does not surprise me that Nissan is very efficient at doing SOME THINGS.

    MY point is that if Nissan were as efficient at building hybrids as Toyota is, then THEY TOO could make a profit on them.

    Obviously the bigwigs at Nissan do not have enough confidence in their engineers and their efficiency to say they can make a profit on hybrids.

    P.S. Your story on efficiency measures NORTH AMERICAN auto plants and the all Toyota hybrids save a few Kentucky TCHs are built in Japan.
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