Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    It's not just talk at Toyota - it's ENFORCED COMPANY POLICY

    So you are telling me you believe that when I wreck my Toyota hybrid and call the dealer, they will send out a mechanic to remove the battery and give me $200 bucks? I got a bridge in Havasu I'd like to sell. You interested?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You call the number on the battery and Toyota handles the arrangements. It's not fluff, it's how it's done. They have been doing it like that since 1998.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    You are making a silly argument. If it's totalled then the insurance company owns it and they dispose of it. It ends up at a salver who disassembles it for whatever can be made to generate income, like $200 for the battery, then the remaining hulk is crushed for resale to the mini-mills.

    Obviously it's not a problem or we would have heard something in the 5 yrs the vehicles have been out. I've seen several totalled Prius' awaiting pick up over the last 3 years.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The Auto Express ( UK ) published this earlier this year but it seems to have a mole somewhere with access to early information. A Dec 9 article.

    Snippet:
    As a result, engineers are targeting fuel economy figures that will make trips to the petrol station a rare occurrence - the firm is aiming to achieve 113mpg! The lighter, more powerful and longer-lasting batteries will ensure that the hatchback is quicker than the model now on sale, with a 0-62mph sprint time of less than 10 seconds. ( Imp Gal of course )

    2009 Prius ? may require a login.

    In another article they allegedly has a 'preview' of what it would look like.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    EPA Revised MPG - Hybrids The Big Losers
    quote-
    Hybrids will be the big losers, however, with the new EPA testing. Hybrids like the Prius and Civic Hybrid will see their city ratings drop by 20% to 30% in the city and 10% to 20% on the highway.
    -end
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Well, getting double the MPG is still double, no matter what the estimated or actuals are. ;)
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    What hybrid gets double the mileage of its non-hybrid counterpart? The Civic certainly doesn't. Neither does the Camry hybrid even when compared to the 6cyl Camry. The Prius doesn't have a counterpart but with the new ratings it won't even get double the mileage of the 4cyl Camry and that is a very generous comparison. I think the real world hybrid mpg advantage is more like 30-35%.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Hybrids will be the big losers,

    Aha.. Gotcha.. ;)

    Look at this nonsensical anomaly ...

    In their article about the subject the San Jose Mercury did some estimates of what the new ratings might be>

    Prius 2007 .. 60 / 51 / 55 Combined
    Prius 2008 .. 45 / 43 / 44 Combined

    Fusion 2007 .. 23 / 31 / 27 Combined
    Fusion 2008 .. 20 / 28.5 / 24 Combined

    Nothing special here, yet. But on a Fuel Usage basis:

    Prius 2007 at a 55 mpg Avg: a driver uses 18.2 gal/1000 mi driven
    Fusion 2007 at a 27 mpg Avg: a driver uses 37.0 gal/1000 mi driven
    According to the EPA the 2007 Prius should be 18.8 gal more efficient than the 2007 Fusion for every 1000 mi driven.

    2008 Prius at a 44 mpg Avg: a driver uses 22.7 gal/1000 mi driven
    2008 Fusion at a 24 mpg Avg: a driver uses 41.7 gal/1000 mi driven
    Therefore:
    According to the NEW EPA estimates the 2008 Prius should be 19.0 gal more efficient than the 2008 Fusion for every 1000 mi driven.

    But as you know nothing has changed at all. None of the vehicles on the road are any different this week than last week and none of the new vehicles to be sold are any different than the ones already sold. It's just that now the EPA can rest for another 30 years without the public hounding them about 'These estimates are bogus' ... and a lot of drivers in all kinds of makes are going to exceed the EPA estimates by a lot, maybe 10-30%.

    I personally will exceed the new EPA estimates by 5-15% depending on the weather and other conditions.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Here is another interesting observation...

    The new TCH came out this year after the EPA had made it's proposal to the public back in January. Normally this kind of change is first given to industry so that it can plan how best to implement the new changes - let's say sometime last year.

    The Prius EPA's are 60 City and 51 Hwy .. a 17.6% difference
    The HH EPA's are 32 City and 27 Hwy .. a 18.5% difference
    The TCH EPA's are 40 City and 38 Hwy .. a 5% difference

    The HSD system is the same, why wouldn't the % difference be the same on the TCH? In addition, from initial reports most people can regularly attain the OLD EPA's in the new TCH with little difficulty. I believe that Toyota implemented the new EPA regs for the TCH on its initial launch. Therefore for this key vehicle it may result in a very small change or no change at all when the new ratings are posted.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I noticed that also.

    The TCH is by far the hybrid which has held closest to the EPA ratings without having the owners jump through a huge learning curve.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    Your figures are unreasonable low, but when I post here, please forgive me that I do not delve into the technical issues as deeply as you, and some others do.

    The Hybrid advantage, fuel-wise, is about 35-45%, as they have a tendency to train drivers, by their displays, to drive more efficiently. My use of the term "double" wasn't meant to be technically correct (it was just a post to make a point about savings being savings) and it was indeed the wrong word to use. It doesn't invalidate the point I was making, however.

    Often times I am mistaken in expecting others not to be so totally literal in examining each and every post, for a flaw to point out. That expectation is unreasonable, as some people are just that way, totally literal about everything. That is my bad. :)
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The only reason I took your post literally is because I've heard people claim that the Prius got double the mileage of the Camry and that's exactly what they meant. The implication is that these are comparable vehicles therefore hybrid technology doubles your mileage. Apparently you realize that is an exaggeration but not everyone does.

    The belief that hybrids train drivers to operate their vehicles more efficiently is valid. There are a lot of people advocating this type of instantaneous fuel consumption gauge be put into all vehicles as an effective, relatively cheap way to reduce consumption. I believe it would work.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I think it would be a great advancement at minimal cost.
    Some things it's taught me...

    Drive on local streets as often as possible in my Prius
    Drive on the highway as often as possible in the Highlander.
    Heavy rain reduces fuel economy about 15%.
    Strong headwinds reduce fuel economy about 10%.
    The winter driving penalty is 8-12%
    Short trips kill fuel economy by nearly 40%
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "Drive on local streets as often as possible in my Prius
    Drive on the highway as often as possible in the Highlander.
    Heavy rain reduces fuel economy about 15%.
    Strong headwinds reduce fuel economy about 10%.
    The winter driving penalty is 8-12%
    Short trips kill fuel economy by nearly 40%"

    Man I hope those aren't cumulative. Driving in heavy rain with a headwind in the winter on a short trip would be a reduction of 72%! :surprise:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    They are cumulative which is why people complain so much about certain driving situaitons and wonder 'Why....?'

    Winter driving in Minn at 70 mph into a strong Northwind will kill FE.

    Short trips of 10 min or less in Winter in Ohio will cut a Prius' City FE to the low 30's from an EPA normal of 60 mpg.

    It's not only the hybrids that this applies to, it's all vehicles. A V6 Fusion, Avalon, Malibu under these conditions might only get 12 mpg iso 24/25 mpg under normal EPA conditions.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I think the newer battery technologies being developed will significantly improve a hybrid's winter performance.
  • shasta67shasta67 Member Posts: 109

    Let me get this straight. My Prius gets totalled and Toyota will come out and get the battery and give me $200? I don't think so. You will have to find someone willing to take the risk to remove the 100 pound HIGH Voltage possibly leaking battery and haul it into the Toyota dealer. You think anyone will do that for $200? It is part of the joke on those thinking Toyota is green.


    Well I have to admit I don't know everything about Hybrids or if they will become the dominate engine type. I do know quite a lot about alternative energy and the mindset of companies that produce them. I work for and at a company that has the worlds largest solar powerplants and our company is also the largest producer of wind energy in the US. About the only thing I agree with gagrice on is Toyota is not truly green. They are "green" because they feel it will be very profitable to be so. I agree with them 100% on this one.

    Most large manufacturing companies are required to have a plan for recycling their used products. Most do not do this directly but have to have a plan and in many cases to pay for someone else to do it. Toyota also serves another purpose by doing it themselves. That is public image.

    oh I almost forgot. Gagrice how much do you want for that bridge?
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "It's not only the hybrids that this applies to, it's all vehicles. A V6 Fusion, Avalon, Malibu under these conditions might only get 12 mpg iso 24/25 mpg under normal EPA conditions."

    Hmmm, 72% of 25 is ... 7 MPG . My 2003 CR-V performed in these conditions showed perhaps a 10% (or less) penalty (depending on the strength of the headwind - I suspect 70 would result in around 30%). So my highway MPG would go from 27 to around 19 MPG. However, at 80 MPH speed and a 70 MPH headwind, that would be a speed of 150 MPH effective, so I doubt I would be going that fast. I'd probably be doing around 60, which nets over 30 MPG, resulting in around 21 MPG overall. I can live with that for an AWD SUV.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The key reducer in this equation is the short trip penalty. It's almost impossible to measure this without a scan gauge or a MFD/bar graph such as on the hybrids. One could certainly use the trip computer if there is one but it would have to be zero'd at the end of each short trip and each trip plotted over several tanks at least.

    Without these tools, in order to find your real fuel economy over several tanks you'd have to drive only short 10 min trips all the time nothing longer. I'll venture that if your CR-V is 20/27 that if you put a scan gauge on it in winter for just the short 10 min trips that you'd find 13-15 mpg. At the end of 10 min turn it off and let it cool down to cold again.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    10 Best Daily Grind cars

    Prius, TCH, Escape Hybrid make cut as does MB E320 BlueTec.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "I'll venture that if your CR-V is 20/27 that if you put a scan gauge on it in winter for just the short 10 min trips that you'd find 13-15 mpg. At the end of 10 min turn it off and let it cool down to cold again."

    Ummm, difficult to say. My trips were 10 minutes, drop off the kids, 10 minutes, then 10 minutes at lunch, 10 minutes after lunch, then 10 minutes home. I didn't let the car cool down, but then, how realistic is that? At these useages I generally got 20 - 21 MPG. But I was careful with the throttle and not rushing at stoplights.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    today’s commuters. It includes the Toyota Prius, Suzuki SX4, Ford Focus, Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry Hybrid, Acura RL, Mercedes-Benz E320 BlueTec, Ford Escape Hybrid, Ford Edge and the Porsche Carrera 4.

    Give me the Carrera or E320 Blutec, you can have the rest. I cannot think of any thing fun about an hours commute. At least the car would be fun.

    For anyone wanting to buy that bridge in Havasu it will be 8 bucks and I take PayPal :shades:
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Nice little review of the Altima Hybrid with some commentary inside

    Love this quote:

    Hybrid doubters — who once railed that the batteries were sketchy, the costs of the so-called hybrid premium unrecoverable, the mileage gains overstated, and so on — are beginning to look like the Flat Earth Society.

    LOVE THAT ANALOGY !!! :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    :( Damn plagerizer...Gotta call my lawyer about this writer. :P

    Post #241 10-7-05

    Post #930 2-13-06

    Post #4194 7-12-06

    Post #33 12-16-06
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yep, you were on top of that a long time ago...:)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote-
    Earlier this month, Nissan exec Dominique Thormann admitted the company was building the Altima hybrid at a loss only to comply with California's partial zero emission vehicle mandate, which has been adopted by seven Northeastern states as well.
    -end

    Sold in only 8 states and sold at a loss. To satisfy a CARB mandate, not market demand. :sick:

    quote-
    It's worth noting, incidentally, that the recent downturn in Toyota hybrid sales is probably due to the shrinking tax credit on them, because Toyota was the first manufacturer to hit the 60,000-unit mark, after which by rule the tax credit decreases. The Altima hybrid seems like a good way to get a Camry hybrid-esque car and still get the full credit.
    -end

    Tax welfare for new car buyers. :surprise:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    quote-
    It's worth noting, incidentally, that the recent downturn in Toyota hybrid sales is probably due to the shrinking tax credit on them, because Toyota was the first manufacturer to hit the 60,000-unit mark, after which by rule the tax credit decreases. The Altima hybrid seems like a good way to get a Camry hybrid-esque car and still get the full credit.
    -end


    Actually this is untrue. It's bad reporting and lacks any analytical talent or effort. Reports like this are often picked up off the wire and reguritated without any verification.

    Hybrid sales up 13.8%

    Prius sales up slightly vs 2005
    TCH sales 3100 units are additional
    HH/400h sales 3000 units down about 20% vs 2005
    HCH sales up 6% vs 2005
    FEH/MMH sales up 32% vs 2005

    Overall sales are up 13.8% vs Nov 2005.

    Lazy people trying to appear smart irk me.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Actually this is untrue. It's bad reporting and lacks any analytical talent or effort. Reports like this are often picked up off the wire and reguritated without any verification.

    Hybrid sales up 13.8%

    Sales Slow for Hybrids

    quote-
    Hybrids accounted for only 1.52 percent of all vehicles sold in November. That's down from 1.77 percent in August, but up from 1.38 percent in November 2005, according to Edmunds. -end

    Up from 2005, still not even 2.0% of sales.

    For the Prius, days supply rose to 47 in November from seven in August, according to Toyota spokesman Xavier Dominicis.

    47 days supply from 7, that is a huge change.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's true.

    There was a press release a couple of months ago that they were going to double the shipments of Prius' now. Why Now? I'm guessing that with KY coming on stream that the line making the Prius was also making the TCH. When KY began making them it freed up capacity for more Prius'. This is only supposition though.

    Nov sales are slightly higher than last year but Days Supply jumped from 7 to 47!!! It can only be extra shipments.

    Maybe they are going to get agressive on the Prius as it enters it's last 18 mo's. They've covered their fixed costs and now they are going to push the volume up, even with discounts, in order to make some money??
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    moparbad,
    Your not going to get an honest straight answer from kdhspyder. He sells Toyota's for a living. He will slant and spin whatever he needs to sell his "Toyota" products. He is a car salesman!! Car buyers who are financially smart will buy a vehicle which get good fuel economy bought at a reasonable price. I'd buy a Corolla before I'd buy a Prius. It just makes better dollar and cents. I used Toyota's just not to hurt kdhspyders feelings. I believe GM's Mild hybrid approach will be more cost effective. Compare the Saturn Vue and the Toyota Highlander Hybrids. Two different approaches one which is more cost effective.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Hush... we've been having an intelligent interchange for over a year now and I've learned a lot from Mr. moparbad.

    YOu too are entitled to your opinion. Enjoy your life.

    BTW: You are right about the Corolla or Civic or Versa or Yaris. If all you want is good solid basic transportation all of these are better choices than any $20000 vehicle. But we covered that last year.

    I tell this to all my clients :shades: "If you are looking to save money on transportation, DON'T buy a Prius or TCH. Buy a 3-4 y.o. Civic or Corolla with 40,000 miles on it for $11000. That's a much better choice."

    However there is a whole segment of buyers for whom $25,000 to $30,000 is what they expect and want to pay for a vehicle. In this range the Prius is a bargain. The TCH even more so.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    "I tell this to all my clients "If you are looking to save money on transportation, DON'T buy a Prius or TCH. Buy a 3-4 y.o. Civic or Corolla with 40,000 miles on it for $11000. That's a much better choice." "

    I'd buy one at an auto auction before I'd buy it from a dealer. Save myself about $6K and wouldn't have to deal with a "Saleman" while buying a used car. But for 25 to 30K a New LOADED Chevy Impala is a much better buy. Safer too.

    What about the comparison between a Saturn Vue hybrid and Toyota Highlander. Well! What holding you back? Lets have your spin on it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I dodn't know anything about the Vue except that it shares the platform with the Equinox. If that's the case it not much of a competitor for the Highlander, which is a decontented Lexus.

    Quick lookup here at Edmunds brings up this comment on the Vue:
    Below-average build quality, undersized front seats, vague steering, missing some popular convenience and safety features.

    Based on this it's hardly in the Lexus/Highlander class. Probably why it's under the radar for most people.

    The 400h/HH are designed for performance with 265+ combined HP with fuel economy as a secondary benefit. The current Vue Greenline is based on a 2.4L with a BAS assist but only 160+ HP. Again these are not in the same class.

    The EPA Fuel Economy benefits are....
    HH/400h ..+25-30%
    Vue Greenline .. +15%
    Again not much to get excited about here

    Quick summary:
    The Vue is one of the General's quick fixes with mediocre build quality ( CR gives it a black mark for reliability ); mediocre performance and so-so fuel economy.

    But it is cheaper to buy.

    Now in fairness this Greenline was a stop-gap measure. The new announcement at the LAIAS about the 2-mode linked to the 3.5L with 45% better FE is something GM can be proud about... when it actually does hit the streets.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Your numbers are slanted. The fuel economy numbers are very close to the Toy. Vue has better hwy and lower city. Overall they are about the same. Over the next two years it will out sell the Highlander Hybrid by 50%. I drove a Highlander hybrid and wasn't impressed. I ended up buying a liberty CRD because it performed and handled much better. My ex wife's highlander couldn't make it up my back driveway in the winter. Plus in the rain the Highlander plows forward instead of turning while moderately braking. As for not being in the same class. They are about the same size the Toyota is just uglier.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Now you are just being silly and making yourself look foolish.

    Are you really saying that it's good that
    the 2.4L 170 HP Vue Greenline gets 27 City and 32 Highway
    whereas..
    the 3.3L V6 268 HP Highlander Hybrid gets 32 City and 27 Highway

    That's pretty good that a 4c can get the same FE values as a V6 with 100 additional HP. Please be serious. Until GM improves the quality of the Vue/Equinox it will never be in the class of the Highlander quality-wise, performance-wise
    or volume-wise.

    Now if the 2-mode is real and performs as stated then GM may have a competitive vehicle. Highlander is due to be redone this summer. It's a moving target. The current Vue is a weak shadow of this 5 y.o. model it won't even see the sun against the new model.

    Congratulations on your Liberty purchase. I was a sole supplier to Jeep for 15 years. They are an American icon.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    The combined number is 29 for both. And its subjective opinion on which is a better vehicle. The highlander is not worth 10K more then the Vue (my opinion). But I like the mild hybrid design of the vue much better then the overpriced system in the Highlander. What I really want is a Commander with the 3.0 CRD option. They don't sell it here. I drove one when I was in Australia. The interior styling could have been better but is was great to drive. Now if they would use a hybrid EV Allison trans with this Commander 3.0 CRD that would temp me to put out 40k+ for that vehicle. Should get around 28 HWY and 30 city. Add the ad blue system then the EPA should be happy.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > But I like the mild hybrid design of the vue much better then the overpriced system in the Highlander.

    Overpriced?

    It's a more powerful system that is quite a bit better loaded. Heck, just the Multi-Display alone is dramatically more expensive than the "Eco" indicator light in so-called competition.

    Highlander-Hybrid will later be available in 4-cylinder version. Add the missing components to Vue-Hybrid, then compare prices.

    After that, consider the upcoming "full" hybrid version of Vue-Hybrid.

    JOHN
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Member Posts: 253
    Bells and whistles!!!! The end result is still the same. Vue is a 5 passenger suv 29 mpg's combined, which is more affordable and not as ugly as the Highlander.

    Merry Christmas.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Summary:
    The Vue Greenline would be for a buyer looking for good fuel economy, weak to mild power, minimal amenities and questionable build quality and reliability... at a very affordable price.

    Someone looking for more in their vehicle might consider paying more for their choice and getting a lot more in return by buying a HH/400h

    That's why there are so many choices in this market. There is a vehicle for every wallet and for every choice. This is good.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Heavy rain reduces fuel economy about 15%.
    Strong headwinds reduce fuel economy about 10%.
    The winter driving penalty is 8-12%
    Short trips kill fuel economy by nearly 40%


    HEY Bob, after a couple of cold weather, high speed, highway milage tanks getting 34 to 35 mpg over Christmas, I am feeling good with this current warm weather streak proving to me that my milage will indeed return this spring. My current tank FE on local roads is 41 with 300 miles on this tank.

    Cold weather did make it more difficult on short trips but short trips in general have not hurt me. I live about 2 miles from town and when I make the trip into town and back, even with a cold engine, I still get around 40 mpg. Considering my lifetime FE is 39mpg after 18,500 miles (Camry Hybrid) then it appears the short trips are not hurting me as I am able to maintain my average. However I believe terrain plays a big part. I live on a hill and when I pull out of my garage with a cold engine it runs all the way down the hill, but I am still gliding with no load on the engine while it warms up. I lose going back up the hill but I don't take a big hit on the warm up because I'm all down hill while it warms up.

    My highway milage is real close to EPA. I can easily obtain 38 driving the limit and driving "normal" I can always get 36 to 37 in rural mountain 4 lane driving. My rural 2 lane driving is where the TCH shines as I can get anywhere from 40 to 43 all the time.

    I still cannot see the downside that many are worried about economically. My monthly gas bill is less than half what it used to be, my car payment dropped $200/month AND in a couple of months I'll file my first tax return with the $2600 Federal and a $1250 State credit (that one is for 3 years). The credits put my LOADED TCH at a cost of less than $24000. This car cannot depreciate more than $24000 so even if I throw it away when I'm done it's going to be a better deal than just about anything I've drove over the last 15 years.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Hybrids better choice per Toyota

    quote-
    Reuters reported that Toyota Motor Corp.'s top engineer said on Monday that diesel-powered vehicles that would clear strict clean-air regulations in the United States would be too pricey to be worth the fuel savings.
    "I won't deny that we might be offering a diesel in the United States some time in the future," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who overseas Toyota's research and development.
    "But right now we think hybrids are much more cost competitive," he told reporters on the sidelines at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.
    Domestic Japanese rivals Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. have both said they were preparing a clean diesel powertrain for launch by the end of the decade in the United States, which is due to introduce the strictest diesel emissions regulations in the world soon.
    But with the particulate filter traps and other added components needed to clean tailpipe emissions, Takimoto said the likely price premium on the cars would not justify a choice over hybrids for now, at least in the United States.
    Toyota, a relative laggard in diesel technology, in November tied up with diesel-savvy Japanese truck maker Isuzu Motors Ltd. in an attempt to catch up, but Takimoto said a roadmap on how to proceed was wide open.
    -end quote

    Interesting times. :confuse:

    Toyota states that diesel technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings.
    Nissan states that hybrid technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    moparbad says, "Toyota states that diesel technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings. Nissan states that hybrid technology is too costly to justify the fuel savings."

    Who you gonna believe?

    A. The company which has sold about 800,000 hybrids worldwide, or
    B. The company which has sold, um, ZERO hybrids worldwide?

    :shades:
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    larsbWho you gonna believe?

    A. The company which has sold about 800,000 hybrids worldwide, or
    B. The company which has sold, um, ZERO hybrids worldwide?


    I'm going to believe Honda, which is going to soon offer more diesels than hybrids in the US, dropped the Insight hybrid, will be eliminating the Accord hybrid, and sells more diesels worldwide than hybrids.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Several thoughts have been generated by this post:

    We need to look at the REASONS these things are true.

    1. Honda dropped the Insight not because they don't like "hybrids" but because it was a "proof of concept, HA HA we beat everyone else in the USA to a hybrid car" vehicle, and as such it was not a valid money-making vehicle. It's the oddball of the hybrids - very limited use 2-seater with quirky looks which they knew would never sell in large volume but STILL got the point across that hybrids could be viable cars. It is not being dropped because "Honda does not like hybrids" - that's ridiculous.

    2. The HAH is getting dropped because they overcharged for it and tried to make it a "muscle hybrid" and did not put enough into the MPG side of the equation. ALSO - they wanted the industry first "6-cylinder hybrid" and they got it. Again - not dropped because Honda does not like hybrids, but because this particular car does not sell well because of how they put the whole package together.

    And virtually every carmaker sells more diesels worldwide than hybrids - that's not news, but market reality because there are so many diesels available and so few hybrids (USA excepted of course because of clean-air regs.)

    Hybrid sales in the USA were up 22% in 2006 to around 251,000 vehicles. Death Knell Postponed. :shades:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    when you posted this link to the diesel forum I noted the same comment as you did here. Curious now that Toyota feels that hybrids are more cost effective - to them - at this point.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    GM could OWN the hybrid market by now !!! LOL !!

    In this 1969 Popular Science article, 2 Editors get a chance to check out GM’s new Pinto-Vega-looking XP-883 hybrid-drive commuter car, and love it.

    As far as I know, GM never dispatched (then withdrew and crushed) a test fleet like they did with the wildly popular EV1 in California.
    PopSci Says in 1969:

    “It’s the best low-emission small car proposed yet, and has both a gasoline and an electric motor.”

    “With all-independent suspension, front-wheel drive, a low center of gravity, and wide track (49 inches), the XP883 should be great fun to drive. But whether, and when, you’ll drive one is something that the GM chiefs haven’t made up their minds about yet. ”


    image
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "In this 1969 Popular Science article, 2 Editors get a chance to check out GM’s new Pinto-Vega-looking XP-883 hybrid-drive commuter car, and love it. "

    Looks more like a '74 AMC Gremlin to me... :surprise:
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote-
    "The cap should be raised for us to allow us to expand," Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor North America, said in an interview at the North American International Auto Show here. "Demand for Prius declined when there was a step down in hybrid tax credits. We need to have a certain volume to get the mainstream in for economies of scale."
    -end

    Toyota wants government support to prop up the demand of hybrids.

    Hmmmmm.......poor Toyota.....what's next...tax credits for Tundra's? :blush:
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    They are just the FIRST COMPANY TO REQUEST IT since they hit their cap early due to, um, the fact that they are the NUMBER ONE HYBRID COMPANY IN THE WORLD.

    The other carmakers will also complain when and if THEIR cars use all the tax credit because of SALES SUCCESS.
  • terry92270terry92270 Member Posts: 1,247
    "People want economy and they will pay any price to get it."

    - Lee Iacocca


    ;)
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