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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Good point, I guess. But the 3800 (with roots back to the 60's) should have all the bugs out of it by now. However, I did have dissatisfaction with two of them, both 91s, so perhaps that was a bad year. One of them just locked up at 4,000 miles. The other blew out freeze plugs at 20,000 miles. But I had a 76, 85, 87, 88, 89 90 & 92 that were good.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Isn't the 3.8 the engine with the disintegrating plastic intake manifolds we've all come to know and love? Or is that another V-6 and I'm slandering the wrong unit here?

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/gm_intake_manifold.html
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    No thats the same motor but it is only certain years that have the plastic intake manifold problem.

    I think it is actually a problem with the coolant passage by the throttle body that is screwing up those intakes. Plenty of cars have that plastic, it is a polymer by Dupont called Zytel, intakes and have not had problems.

    It is not a problem with the engine itself just those few years that have the bad plastic manifolds. The ones with the metal ones do fine and some years with the plastic are ok.
  • billymaybillymay Member Posts: 59
    Cadillac is one giant flaming atrocious diaster. Awful. Obviously I didn't get to drive anything there, but unfortunately the BMW and Lexus displays were nearby. Even with BMW's step-backward Bangle styling it's just sickening how far Cadillac has been outgunned in the exterior/interior styling department. And Lexus is really starting to wake up -- the new IS250/350 is a fantasy poster car compared to the CTS. The ES is handsome if not thrilling. The interior of the 3 and 5 simply blow away anything Cadillac has. It's like being in a high-performance art exhibit.

    I don't usually shop sedans, but I'll be buying a four-seater this summer due to a lease end (and my other car is an impractical mid-engined two-seater) and there's no way I'm spending 3 years driving something with that much plastic/fake wood, and gauges out of a Grand Am. The worst part is that having owned a BMW I know that when I go to drive these cars I'll fall for the BMW six over whatever engine Cadillac offers.

    And the DTS is still a retirement home cruiser. What has GM been doing for ten years? This thing is as ugly as the crap Monte Carlo I had to rent last year from Enterprise.

    The only winner was the Cadillac XLR versus the hideous Lexus SC and the bloated BMW 6. If I wanted a cushy two-seater convertible, I'd give the XLR a real look. Yeah the depreciation is horrible, but Lexus doesn't know how to design a sports car, and BMW made a rare misstep. XLR is like a Corvette with some class - not a bad combination.

    Back to the drawing board, GM.

    I'm off to the Lexus and BMW dealers to buy something that won't embarrass me.
    :sick:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The second and third generation Northstar engine has been quite reliable ;)

    Rocky
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I had a 3.4L that breeched the intake manifold gasket and flooded the motor with coolant.... I was thrilled.
  • bigo08bigo08 Member Posts: 102
    to bad Cadillac dosent seem offer anything you like :sick:

    To Me BMW interiors aren't the most attractive, they of course use the best materials, but Cadillacs SRX, XLR and 07 Escalade interiors are top notch.

    Even some Lincoln interiors are better looking than BMW's .... MKZ, MKX. thats just me ;)
  • chevy598chevy598 Member Posts: 162
    I had a 3.8 go out after 60000 miles, and the rebuilt motor went out after 3000 miles. Next one lasted 100,000 miles, and still going when I sold it.
    I think the 08 CTS is better looking inside & out compared to the BMWS.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Northstar V-8 is an excellent engine. Early versions did have a problem with oil consumption, but it could ve traced to a faulty lower crankcase seal. The seal itself is $44, but the labor is costly as as the engine to be removed from the vehicle to replace it.

    My 1994 Cadillac DeVille had a 4.9 litre V-8 which was a pretty decent engine and hardly a slouch. It was rated at only 200 hp, but that baby was smooth as silk and had a lot of get-up-and-go. If you didn't watch it, you'd be cruising at 100 mph on the turnpike.

    I agree that the 3800 is an excellent engine no matter what generation. It was good in my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and good in my girlfriend's 2005 Buick LaCrosse. The 3800 did get off to a bad start back in the day and went through a questionable period in the 1990s with that plastic intake manifold.

    Questions:

    I've often thought of buying a used 1990s Park Avenue or LeSabre to replace my '88 someday, but I'm afraid of that intake manifold problem. How would I know if the problem was already dealt with in a car I'm considering? How frequent does the problem occur? How much would the repair cost and how long will it last before one would be once again be faced with the problem?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Apparently this intake problem continues into late 1990s, early 2000s as well. There are actually national petitions being signed and distributed to send to GM from owners all over the country.

    http://www.geocities.com/gm_intake/index.htm

    I'd think once you replaced the intake gasket (or the engine, if the coolant has eaten into the bearings) you'd be fine for 60K-100K. This seems to be the deadly range.

    Might be a smart move. I'm sure you could find these cars dirt cheap because of the reputation.

    What a mess.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The easy way to tell if the car is dying is to look at the radiator with the cap off. If it has a brown color, it's getting oil in it and the damage is already started.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    My advice it just to buy a Supercharged model and avoid the problem altogether. The SC 3800 motors never had plastic intakes and as strong as the rest of the 3800 is the Supercharger doesn't really shorten its life any.

    The gas mileage is even about the same as long as you don't floor it from every stop light. Just make sure you use premium fuel though as the SC motor does not like 87 or 89 octane.

    http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/

    ^^^ Is my old bonneville forum from when I owned my pontiac they are a good resource for information like what you are looking for.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    lemko, I agree with british. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You could always buy ya a used Oldsmobile Aurora 4.0 Northstar or a Pontiac Bonneville GXP with the 4.6 Northstar engine. british_rover, is right the Supercharged 3800 engine didn't have the problems that the non-supercharged engines seemed to occasionally have.

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I assume that your '88 is a beater to drive in winter. When it is ready to junk, why not keep the 2002 STS as the beater? Assuming that the '88 runs a few more years, the STS will have depreciated to nearly zero by then.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's my other plan, but my STS is so nice it would be a shame to downgrade it to beater status. The only way I'd do that is if Cadillac finally makes a solid RWD/AWD DTS similar in size to the current car.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The Northstar V-8 is an excellent engine. Early versions did have a problem with oil consumption, but it could ve traced to a faulty lower crankcase seal.

    I've often thought of buying a used 1990s Park Avenue or LeSabre to replace my '88 someday, but I'm afraid of that intake manifold problem.

    How could the Northstar be so excellent with problems. Have had Honda and Nissan engines that were bullit-proof for many years, some up to and over 200k miles. That is what is excellent.

    Forget all that GM stuff. Just get a recent 4-door 4-cyl Honda Accord LX with low miles and dealer certified. It will last you till 250k or 300k miles with minimum maintenance. And, the Accord is made by Americans in Ohio. You will then for sure be driving the "world standard". If you want to get a more recent Honda in later years, you will still get a good buck on resale.

    On Caddy, there was an article in newspaper recently that Chinese like big Caddies. Wonder if Chinese tastes will inflence Caddy offerings and designs in US.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    "world standard".

    You got to be joking, right ?

    Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    "world standard".

    You got to be joking, right ?

    Rocky


    Honda Accord is a world standard in its market category/price range for about last 20 years. One measure of a world standard is that other car manufacturers try to emulate or copy Honda Accord attributes. In comparison, not aware that any car manufacturer such as BMW or Mercedes trys to copy anything about Cadillac.

    Another example of world standard is BMW 3 series. Many manufacturers try to emulate and then compete with it. Some get close, but they still can't match nor beat it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Honda Accord is a world standard in its market category/price range for about last 20 years. One measure of a world standard is that other car manufacturers try to emulate or copy Honda Accord attributes.

    Are you sure the Honda Accord hasn't been trying to copy the Toyota Camry ??? Last I checked it was still the #1 selling car...... :confuse:

    In comparison, not aware that any car manufacturer such as BMW or Mercedes trys to copy anything about Cadillac.

    Ummmmm, one could make a arguement that Mercedes and even more so Lincoln/Ford tried to Copy the GM full size SUV's. ;)

    Another example of world standard is BMW 3 series. Many manufacturers try to emulate and then compete with it. Some get close, but they still can't match nor beat it.

    Well that is merely an opinion because plenty of buyers choose BMW 3 series alternatives in the ELLPS segment.

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My brother has a recent vintage Honda that has needed the engine rebuilt because of a known design fault. That is to say, a problem that occurs for many Honda owners. Not bullet proof...
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    Honda Accord is a world standard in its market category/price range for about last 20 years.

    The only thing that the Honda Accord sold in the US and Canada have in common with other Honda Accords is a name. The Acura TSX is badged as a Honda Accord in other markets, and includes a variety of engine choices and configurations not offered here. You can't claim that it is a world standard when we're the only ones buying the version that we have.

    Ditto with the Camry, which is also unique to us. Both the US Accord and the Camry are designed to meet our tastes, and are not "world cars".

    Another example of world standard is BMW 3 series.

    That, on the other hand, is a fine example of a benchmark. Others do try to emulate it, and they never quite get there. They may equal it in some categories, but not overall.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Another example of world standard is BMW 3 series.

    That, on the other hand, is a fine example of a benchmark. Others do try to emulate it, and they never quite get there. They may equal it in some categories, but not overall.


    I've never understood all the hype behind the BMW 3 series ?????? I can find plenty of car that look better, out perform, out luxury the BMW 3 series. I think to many people read car magazines. I'm not saying it's not a great car but my god it's the one car americans do worship and i can't put my finger on it to as why ? :confuse:

    Rocky
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    Rocky, have you ever driven a 3? My friend has a pretty run of the mill 2000 328 with a 5 sp and a sports package. The car is rated at 187 horse, but my God what a beautiful car to drive. It's unquestionable the quickest 187 horse I've ever felt, the gearbox and clutch are perfect and the controls are so accurate and agile. The seats are also perfect and the interior sharp. Once I drove it, I knew what the big deal was about.

    I was also fortunate enough to drive a 2005 M3. That car is an animal.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I completely agree with you there. I could never see the appeal of the 3 series.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Is it a 4 cyl or V6 issue?

    And then there are the transmissions...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I drove my great friend Brads 1997' BMW M3 Sedan and my buddy Justins early 2000 BMW 540i and my buddy Joe's 2003' BMW 325ci coupe. All were nice cars but they weren't unbelievable like everyone hypes them up to be. I was way more impressed with the CTS and CTS-V I've driven at a car dealerships ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    snake,

    OMG I'm not the only person left...... ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'd rather be caught dead in fintails car than a Bimmer. Mercedes might just be the European Ultimate Driving Machine ;)

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...those older Mercedes definately were a world standard. Something like fintail's rides are something I myself would drive - either his W126 S-Class or his older blue car, (forget what it is, but I like it).

    The early Northstar's problem doesn't affect the car's drivability; it's just an inconvenience to check the oil level. The Northstar does take 8 qts. of oil vs. the usual five. The problem with the lower crankcase seal has been resolved with a new design.

    People who are so quick to condemn the Northstar forget the infamous sludging problem with the Camry's V-6 - an exponentially more serious issue.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Because the 3 series does more things better than any other car, even if some other car can do one thing better than the 3 series.

    Camry V-6: Well that's the whole point. People DID forget about the sludge issue, but they didn't forget about the Northstar problems.

    Reason? Either a worldwide conspiracy against Cadillac or (more likely) the Northstar defects affected more people.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The 3 series is just the complet package just like shifty said. It does everything very, very well and while they are a few cars that might do one or two things better they fall behind at everything else.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The only thing that the Honda Accord sold in the US and Canada have in common with other Honda Accords is a name. The Acura TSX is badged as a Honda Accord in other markets, and includes a variety of engine choices and configurations not offered here. You can't claim that it is a world standard when we're the only ones buying the version that we have.

    Sorry. Don't understand the point you may be trying to make.

    The Honda Accord is the World Standard. Caddy wishes it were for its segment.

    Car and Driver and CR have bestowed many compliments on Accord over last couple decades. We have owned a few, we can confirm.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It sounds so "easy" to be a BMW 3 series but somehow when other automakers try it, they don't quite quite get there.

    This is what Cadillac will have to do someday---not be the fastest or the prettiest or the quietest, but to be able to stand up to any car in its class and do everything very well, rather than a few things better. This often takes years of refinement of the same basic corporate design principles---that is, you can't be jumping all over the place.
  • pch101pch101 Member Posts: 582
    There is no such as a single "world" Accord. The Accord in the US is quite different than the car sold abroad -- it's a larger car with softer handling. Nobody is copying the US Accord outside the US.

    And it does not have the favor abroad that it does here. Honda is very successful in North America, but enjoys less popularity abroad.

    It is fair to say that the Accord is a benchmark in the US. But overseas, that's not the case. If anything, the standard bearer of smaller cars in Europe has long been the VW Golf (not the Jetta/ Bora, which was not that popular), and the pocket rocket favorite was the GTI.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    People who are so quick to condemn the Northstar forget the infamous sludging problem with the Camry's V-6 - an exponentially more serious issue

    My posts today talking about Honda, not Camry. Honda is an engine company and and "Engineering company". Can you say the same about GM? What the heck is GM? A marketeting company primarily - baseball, apple pie, hot dogs, unshaven guys loading/driving pickup trucks?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Defects? Plural? There was only one defect and it was rather minor and has long since been remedied. You just lost a little oil with the Northstar. With the Camry V-6 sludge issue you lost an engine. It's kind of like two people being in an accident. One guy got a few cuts and scrapes, the other guy lost his legs. Funny how people would remember cuts and scrapes in a domestic (Northstar) than disfigurement and dismemberment (Camry sludge) in an import.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I always thought Chrysler was the engineering company. Honda could be thought of as an engine company as it makes a lot of small engines for lawn mowers, generators, etc. Sort of like Briggs & Stratton.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    You will then for sure be driving the "world standard". If you want to get a more recent Honda in later years, you will still get a good buck on resale

    Arguably, the WORLD STANDARD in small engined, small semi-sporty cars maybe - but there are other flavors that some of us like. I have owned a Honda, and it went forever with no problems, and was not bad to drive either, but it's a tin can - possibly the best tin can, but tin nonetheless.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    My brother has a recent vintage Honda that has needed the engine rebuilt because of a known design fault.

    Did your brother buy Honda new or used? Did he do proper maintenance? Not aware of any Honda engine design faults. Honda very responsible about anything "they" screwed up on and will usualy fix under warranty or extended waranty. They "step up" and are responsible, which a lot of others weasel out of.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    There was only one defect and it was rather minor and has long since been remedied. You just lost a little oil with the Northstar. With the Camry V-6 sludge issue you lost an engine.

    NOT TALKING ABOUT CAMRY. Conversation is about Honda as world standard, not Camry.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Doh...I don't have the 126 anymore...but I do have the older car (the fintail, hence my username).

    About MB being called the ultimate driving machine by rocky...nah. More like the ultimate high speed cruising machine. BMWs are for tracks. MBs are for autobahns.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    What is the year and model of your older car? Could you post a picture? It is a very attractive car. I have a book on the Ponton and Fintail cars.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    BMWs are for tracks. MBs are for autobahns.

    Eggzactly, fintail - you nailed it. And I think they both do their thing the best. And Lexus probably aspires more toward the MB, don't you think?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    image

    1964 220SE, which is a later highline fintail (fuel injection, disc brakes, 4 speed auto). In mid 1965 this car would be replaced. These cars are virtually identical from model years 1960/61-65, with some carryover to 67/68.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Are you sure the Honda Accord hasn't been trying to copy the Toyota Camry ???

    Rocky. Tell us how many Honda/Acuras you have owned and total miles driven.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's exactly what Lexus wants to be. Seeing as the first two LS designs were blatant S-class takeoffs doesn't hurt either.

    And to be on topic...I think Caddy should emulate Lexus/MB more than BMW. It's probably an easier mark to hit.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah the closest strike to the 3 series lately IMO was the original IS300.

    Big smooth inline 6 engine {Check}
    Rear wheel drive {check}
    Moderate luxury interior {check}
    comfortable yet supportive seats {eehhh not really}
    nearly telepathic steering feel (well no}
    manual transmission (I think they imported a hundred or so)

    The New IS does not impess me at all.

    I haven't driven the new G35 but it might be the next near hit for the 3 series.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I completely agree with you there. I could never see the appeal of the 3 series.

    Wow!!! I guess that you are saying that Car and Driver, Road and Track, and Consumer Reports don't know what they are talking about.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I always thought Chrysler was the engineering company.

    Maybe if one is in the Twilight Zone or on some kind of drugs. Honda is ENGINEERING.
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