Well maybe "buzzy" wasn't the right word. What I meant was that those 6 cylinder engines were designed for Germany roads and they were cranking RPMs that were fine for Germans and fine for the engine (they were built for it) but American drivers were not used to engines operating all day in the high RPM zone. They were used to huge torquey V8s lumbering along at 1800 rpm at 60 mph.
This was a major bit of sales resistance and was only overcome with the use of V-8 and V-6 engines that had more torque than the Benz inline 6s.
Benz compensated for lack of torque with low gearing and high rpm. Most of the Benz 6s were dogs unless you really revved them up. American drivers were simply not used to driving this way.
I don't have prices guides from the 60's, except for one 1967 prices for domestic cars only. However I do have one for 1976 that includes imports: 1976 Cadillac Fleetwood's - about $11,000 1976 Seville - $12,500 1976 DeVille - $9,200 1976 Buick Electra - $6,500 1976 Olds 98 - $6,500
1976 Mercedes 230 sedan (automatic) - $10,000 1976 Mercedes 280 S - $15,500 1976 Mercedes 450 SE - $19,000
Shoot, the Buick Electra and Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight look like bargains compared to the Cadillac DeVille. They are virtually the same car for almost $3K less!
Yeah - the engine died - needed to be completely rebuilt.
$3500 plus labor was almost what the car was worth, so it had to go. It's being restored in Germany though(clean, virtually no rust) - so it's not really "gone".
Loved it - but my only gripe was that I should have searched for a 220SE because the carbs were always giving me problems when it got cold or rainy.(plus the 220SE has a much nicer interior). Or a 300 - 200 net HP at th rear wheels is impressive.
So you sold it to a German? That's cool. Nice fintails bring big bucks over there.
I had a similar issue on my 220SE 10 years ago when a ring failed, and the engine had been using a lot of oil anyway. I was faced with either sinking $3K into it to fix it, do an engine swap, or just move on. I actually chose to repair it, thinking I couldn't get anything really decent for that money anyway, and the car itself was very sound and worth saving. 10 years later, it's still doing fine.
300SE fintail is a very rare car, I'd love to know if you come across one.
Heh. Will do. Shoot, I'll shout it from the hilltops. To me, it might as well be a Ferrari 270 GTB Of course, if I find a 300SE convertable...(not the coupe but the 4 door convertable) - but that's abot 30-50K last I checked, versus 5-10K for the sedan version.
I just don't like the way the 250 and later models look, either - the fins are sweet and look very old-school classic. But the 230S had that miserable carb setup and of course - so the 220SE or 300SE are what one should look for.
Ebay Item # 130071777671 This is almost a carbon clone of my 230S - just a 220SE. Same color, same condition. And as you can see... the price is quite affordable compared to the coupes and convertables.
You'd have an easier time locating the Ferrari than a W112 300SE sedan.
There were 300 series 4 door convertibles of the Adenauer style, but never a fintail. The rare 300SE fintail is the LWB version, of which just around a thousand were made over a 3 year stretch. They had beautiful interiors, styled like the coupes inside, and of course that 200hp +/- M189 engine that was successful in racing. I have only seen one in real life, and it was ruined, having sat outside for 20 years with a broken back window.
I like the fins too. They are kitsch, but they look good on the car. I didn't like fintails when I was a kid...I thought they looked too weird, and the instrument cluster put me off. But once I drove one...
That ebay car looks good, and the period AC is amusing. A well sorted fintail is a bargain at around that price, they are very driveable and even almost fun. One shouldn't have to pay more than 5K for a genuinely nice 220SE. It's just tough to find a good one.
True. But, they need to hit the markets with the diesel now, not introduce vehicles which don't fit the market and then tweek them. I just think this is very poor marketing, and part of being the Standard of the World is getting the market right. Or making the market, but in this case Hummer and Escalade are so far off the mark as to totally preclude making any markets.
Don't get me wrong. I very much want both Cadillac and Lincoln to be standard setters.
That's the dream, of course. Only a little over 700 of the convertible sedans were built - sometihng Mercedes hasn't done again to date(4 door convertible that is)
Cost? More money than one would like to contemplate.
Mercedes WAS the standard until the last ten years.
Now everything seems to be so mediocre. I don't think there is a "standard of the world" right car now, at least with the major makes. A car like a Saleen still is at that standard, but it's a niche product, most definately.
MB could be considered the "Standard of the World" from a brand recognition point of view. I beleive that, along with e.g. Coke, Mercedes is one of the most recognized brands on Earth. Not so much for Caddy.
Just build great, reliable, quality and appropriately priced cars. Get great reviews from the car mags. People will buy...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
While most (if not all) "car" people would recognize a Mercedes, a lot of non-car people that will recognize a Rolls Royce would not know a Mercedes from a VW.
The hood ornaments actually tell a story...I never looked at them that way before....
the Mercedes emblem is hard to criticize, like it or not...it is just...classically simple...
the Cadillac is a rather odd combination of obscure messages....let's combine the coat of arms of a 17th century French explorer, then we'll add a sort of Roman wreath around it, and then gold-plate the whole thing. But somehow it fits the car's image...more is....MORE!
the Rolls has the arrogance of the British Empire all over it, like it was some kind of Greek god lording over you from high atop Mt. Olympus. Of course, many years ago (MANY!) Rolls could lord it over any other car...but that was the 1920s.
The Cadillac is a rather odd combination of obscure messages
Interestingly, along that exact line, I was fascinated by the vast number of things I found identifed as a Cadillac Hood ornament - The one I posted is only the most recent of a large variety. I selected the most modern as the best known of a variety of options.
Looking at the variety of choices, I felt that Cadillac has always very much been a machine of the day - not the personification of an eternal idea (Wow - that's heavy enough to even scare ME, and I said it! :surprise: )
Cadillac registered the coat of arms in 1906. However, it was not used as a hood ornament. Hood ornaments are one thing, and symbols like the Cadillac crest and wreath are something else. After Cadillac won the Dewar Trophy for Standardization, they added to the coat of arms "Standard of the World". See here: http://home.iag.net/~middlebr/crest.html
After World War Two, Cadillac used a V symbol instead of the wreath. The wreath returned in the sixties on Eldorados.
Interestingly, along that exact line, I was fascinated by the vast number of things I found identifed as a Cadillac Hood ornament -
Long time ago saw a movie on tv that was shot (partially?) in Texas and had a cigar smoking balding rancher. He drove a Cadillac Eldorado convertible with steer horns for hood ornament. Now that made a statement.
I think a lot depends on what part of the world you're in. For many people a car is just a car, and they all look alike to them. People who can tell what different makes are by just looking at the shape of the car built before World War Two, think modern cars all look alike. The Rolls radiator is still recognizable though...
However, in third world countries, where the locals see the local dictator driven around in a Mercedes 600 (or whatever), a Mercedes is recognizable.
For a period of time Cadillacs were a car of choice in the US for the rich and famous. So, as Mr. Shiftright said sometime back, Cadillac was identified with having it made.
That's very true. When I was a little kid (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) driving a Cadillac meant you were a doctor or successful businessman or in the mafia or a friend of Frank Sinatra at any rate, or you were president. (Well there are different ways of "making it") :P
Of course these were the times of not-so-easy-credit. It was hard for a working stiff to own a new Caddy, but now all we need is a credit card, a few hundred bucks and we can sign a lease. Ditto for most luxury cars except the really pricey ones. You still need some real juice to buy a new Benz 600 or BMW 7 series or Lexus 460.
When I was a little kid (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) driving a Cadillac meant you were a doctor or successful businessman or in the mafia or a friend of Frank
Cadillac registered the coat of arms in 1906. However, it was not used as a hood ornament. Hood ornaments are one thing, and symbols like the Cadillac crest and wreath are something else.
Fair Enough statement...
But the topic was mine, and my topic was Hood Ornaments...
Rolls Royce has a Logo too but I posted the Hood Ornament for them not the Logo.
Additionally, the Cadillac Logo WAS used as a Hood Ornament... I posted a picture of it. Is it not so?
The Mercedes Hood Ornament IS the Logo, so it's a distinction without a difference for them.
I was responding to someone else, pointing out that while Mercedes has used the star for a long period as a hood ornament, Cadillac has had various hood ornaments, but that the coat of arms has been used in various ways, but has been more consistent than their hood ornaments.
A hood ornament is on top of the hood and was the device that was determined to be dangerous, so is now spring loaded (making it easy to steal). Putting the logo on the surface of the hood is not quite the same thing.
They had some beautiful hood ornaments back in the day. Lincoln had a greyhound, Cadillac had the Goddess, Pierce-Arrow had the archer. Heck, Nash had one in the early 1950s which was a girl lying on her stomach in a swimsuit. You'd never see something like that in this PC age. Chief Pontiac is definately out.
Comments
This was a major bit of sales resistance and was only overcome with the use of V-8 and V-6 engines that had more torque than the Benz inline 6s.
Benz compensated for lack of torque with low gearing and high rpm. Most of the Benz 6s were dogs unless you really revved them up. American drivers were simply not used to driving this way.
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood's - about $11,000
1976 Seville - $12,500
1976 DeVille - $9,200
1976 Buick Electra - $6,500
1976 Olds 98 - $6,500
1976 Mercedes 230 sedan (automatic) - $10,000
1976 Mercedes 280 S - $15,500
1976 Mercedes 450 SE - $19,000
Volvo's were about $6,000.
Mine had a manual transmission and was just fine. Of course, it was a blast to drive if you whomped on it and let it spin up.
Oh - well - someday I'll have a 300S to replace it.
$3500 plus labor was almost what the car was worth, so it had to go. It's being restored in Germany though(clean, virtually no rust) - so it's not really "gone".
Loved it - but my only gripe was that I should have searched for a 220SE because the carbs were always giving me problems when it got cold or rainy.(plus the 220SE has a much nicer interior). Or a 300 - 200 net HP at th rear wheels is impressive.
I had a similar issue on my 220SE 10 years ago when a ring failed, and the engine had been using a lot of oil anyway. I was faced with either sinking $3K into it to fix it, do an engine swap, or just move on. I actually chose to repair it, thinking I couldn't get anything really decent for that money anyway, and the car itself was very sound and worth saving. 10 years later, it's still doing fine.
300SE fintail is a very rare car, I'd love to know if you come across one.
I just don't like the way the 250 and later models look, either - the fins are sweet and look very old-school classic. But the 230S had that miserable carb setup and of course - so the 220SE or 300SE are what one should look for.
Ebay Item # 130071777671
This is almost a carbon clone of my 230S - just a 220SE. Same color, same condition. And as you can see... the price is quite affordable compared to the coupes and convertables.
There were 300 series 4 door convertibles of the Adenauer style, but never a fintail. The rare 300SE fintail is the LWB version, of which just around a thousand were made over a 3 year stretch. They had beautiful interiors, styled like the coupes inside, and of course that 200hp +/- M189 engine that was successful in racing. I have only seen one in real life, and it was ruined, having sat outside for 20 years with a broken back window.
I like the fins too. They are kitsch, but they look good on the car. I didn't like fintails when I was a kid...I thought they looked too weird, and the instrument cluster put me off. But once I drove one...
That ebay car looks good, and the period AC is amusing. A well sorted fintail is a bargain at around that price, they are very driveable and even almost fun. One shouldn't have to pay more than 5K for a genuinely nice 220SE. It's just tough to find a good one.
Cadillac's Sales Targets in Europe Look Doomed (Detroit News Online
Don't get me wrong. I very much want both Cadillac and Lincoln to be standard setters.
That's the dream, of course.
Cost? More money than one would like to contemplate.
I would say 70-80K should get a decent one.
Well, we ARE talking about the standard of the world..... :P
But seriously, folks,
I suspect it might be my fault for posting a picture of an ugly old Mercedes as a comparison to a beautiful old Lincoln and a beautiful old Cadillac.
See post #2083.
Note - I'm not exactly serious about Mercedes being the 'real' standard of the world, but there's an argument to be made there.
Now everything seems to be so mediocre. I don't think there is a "standard of the world" right car now, at least with the major makes. A car like a Saleen still is at that standard, but it's a niche product, most definately.
Everyone knows Cadillac was the standard of the world just the same as the Reds were World Champions in whatever year that was. So that settles it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just build great, reliable, quality and appropriately priced cars. Get great reviews from the car mags. People will buy...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Uhm, wait, don't tell me.... it,uhm, means PEACE, right?
And they'd probably be riding around in ratty old Toyota pickups that refused to die while they identified that Mercedes hood ornament....
Actually only BMW shows up here outside of its own region. The only top car brands are Toyota and Honda in japan region
the Mercedes emblem is hard to criticize, like it or not...it is just...classically simple...
the Cadillac is a rather odd combination of obscure messages....let's combine the coat of arms of a 17th century French explorer, then we'll add a sort of Roman wreath around it, and then gold-plate the whole thing. But somehow it fits the car's image...more is....MORE!
the Rolls has the arrogance of the British Empire all over it, like it was some kind of Greek god lording over you from high atop Mt. Olympus. Of course, many years ago (MANY!) Rolls could lord it over any other car...but that was the 1920s.
Interestingly, along that exact line, I was fascinated by the vast number of things I found identifed as a Cadillac Hood ornament - The one I posted is only the most recent of a large variety. I selected the most modern as the best known of a variety of options.
Looking at the variety of choices, I felt that Cadillac has always very much been a machine of the day - not the personification of an eternal idea (Wow - that's heavy enough to even scare ME, and I said it! :surprise: )
Google Quest for the Cadillac Hood Ornament.
In contrast, Mercedes has been consistent since ?1898?
And Rolls... will... never.... ever...ever.... change. Period
http://home.iag.net/~middlebr/crest.html
After World War Two, Cadillac used a V symbol instead of the wreath. The wreath returned in the sixties on Eldorados.
Long time ago saw a movie on tv that was shot (partially?) in Texas and had a cigar smoking balding rancher. He drove a Cadillac Eldorado convertible with steer horns for hood ornament. Now that made a statement.
However, in third world countries, where the locals see the local dictator driven around in a Mercedes 600 (or whatever), a Mercedes is recognizable.
For a period of time Cadillacs were a car of choice in the US for the rich and famous. So, as Mr. Shiftright said sometime back, Cadillac was identified with having it made.
Of course these were the times of not-so-easy-credit. It was hard for a working stiff to own a new Caddy, but now all we need is a credit card, a few hundred bucks and we can sign a lease. Ditto for most luxury cars except the really pricey ones. You still need some real juice to buy a new Benz 600 or BMW 7 series or Lexus 460.
or, a funeral director.
Dagnabit those darn Duke boys are at it again. :shades:
Fair Enough statement...
But the topic was mine, and my topic was Hood Ornaments...
Rolls Royce has a Logo too but I posted the Hood Ornament for them not the Logo.
Additionally, the Cadillac Logo WAS used as a Hood Ornament... I posted a picture of it. Is it not so?
The Mercedes Hood Ornament IS the Logo, so it's a distinction without a difference for them.
Of course it incorporates the star...maybe that's a good idea, two-for-one in recognition.
Does it qualify as both a Logo AND a hood 0rnament?
I think it's been on the front of every one of their cars.
Hood ornaments started out a fancy radiator caps.
Very few hood ornaments look very good any more, on modern cars.