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Crossover SUV Comparison

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Comments

  • jigmasterjigmaster Member Posts: 32
    I drove both and TX drives way more like a car comparing to CX-9. Add difference in price, better MPG, better safety, better third row leg room, same or even more standard options and it becomes quite a nice amount of $ just for the sporty look. CX-9 is a nice car - no doubt but why it is so much more expensive?
  • lbthedawglbthedawg Member Posts: 48
    I see that it's fair game to bash US automakers with the "mediocre" nonsense.

    But never will those that care to throw that gauntlet admit that it is beyond indisputable that Japan plays with currency values to defend their manufacturing base. All you have to do is learn real economics and then go track national interest rates.

    And pray tell what have Japanese interest rates RISEN to recently? Have they gone over a half percent?

    The fact is currency manipulation is protectionism and by doing it it is in the long term a subsidy paid by the market that has the higher rate and the trade imbalance.

    Don't get it yet? Well the executives at Toyota do. They freely admit that nearly 20% of their profits come from currency exchanges.

    BTW, the 2009 Pilot? It better do something right because nobody will buy it for looks. Kinda like the second generation Scion XB which is doing a great job covering storage lots. Now there's mediocre.
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    I see that it's fair game to bash US automakers with the "mediocre" nonsense.

    Yep, absolutely fair. Example: Ford Taurus, huge win for Ford when first introduced. Then they let it go to crap, with poor interior quality and technology, and let Honda and Toyota pass them while doing nothing to improve the car, assuming the american buyer will not be able to tell the difference. Now that's mediocre. Oh, and by having a bad car, it also opened the door for people to try Honda's and Toyota's SUVs.

    All this currency stuff is a wash, imo: it's a global economy, and the Big Three send a lot of business to Asia (all the interior plastic, for example, hence hurting plastic manufacturers/molders here in the US).
  • baseballmom97baseballmom97 Member Posts: 101
    I just bought an '08 Acadia last week -- I was having cold feet right before I took delivery of it since I kind of wanted to see what Honda had up their sleeve on the '09 Pilot. Since the photos of the new Pilot were just unveiled at the Detroit Auto Show, I'm glad I didn't wait. Acadia looks much better and we love the second row captains chairs and the third row has tons of room. :shades:
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    I'd have to agree: what were they smoking when designing that front end? Maybe a mesh grille would make it look better (and different headlights).

    Otherwise, same basic shape as the outgoing Pilot, just bigger. That cylinder de-activation thing is cool (it can run in 4- and 3-cylinder mode, thus saving gas). I guess people who love the current Pilot design will love this one too (personally, I was never crazy about the Pilot).
  • humblecoderhumblecoder Member Posts: 125
    I think it will take sales from TX. It has more room and price as mention in article will be at level with the main competitors Acadia and Pilot. So, the price will at same level as TX , just may be 2-3K more. It's another failure by Ford.

    Time will tell, but my guess is that the Flex might cannibalize sales away from the Explorer or Expedition, rather than the TX. Until the Flex comes out, there is no vehicle in the Ford CUV stable that can carry seven passengers and also tow 4000 pounds. If you want this feature combo, you are going to be looking at one of the Ford SUV's, and not the TX.

    Besides, GM is notorious for having vehicles which directly compete against one another. Next year when the Chevy version of the lambda comes out, there is no doubt that it will cannibalize sales from your beloved Acadia. I guess GM has deemed the Acadia a failure too, huh? :)
  • humblecoderhumblecoder Member Posts: 125
    In term financially I don't see nothing smart in tis step. It's huge financial over head the spending money for unknown future, called the word "May be".
    Ford should compete with Toyota or Honda


    If I remember correctly, the Flex and the TX are built on the same platform, so it is not like they are designing a new vehicle from the ground up. This is similar to what GM is doing with their three (soon to be four) lambdas.

    Actually, one could argue that Ford is doing a better job of leveraging this common platform. At least Ford is using this platform to built vehicles which are distinct. GM is basically building three copies (Saturn/GMC/Chevy) of the same vehicle with some cosmetic changes and slapping different name badges on them.
  • lbthedawglbthedawg Member Posts: 48
    "it's a global economy"?

    Since when?

    Or better yet, why?

    You've been duped. Global economy is a two word hedge that says some countries look upon the American market as "their" property simply not because of product but because of political influence. If there was a "global economy" (which there isn't) all national interest rates would eventually float to a similar level. To put it simply, they don't. And they won't either.

    Are the Big Three sending business out? They have to. They have no choice. Thanks to the ineptness of both political parties, they get absolutely no support (unlike the predators from some countries) and they cannot obtain capital at a competitive rate. In the meantime, the charlatans from Asia are buying here with capital where they pay next to nothing for.

    And if it is a "global economy" why aren't the Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans paying the workers here at the same relative rate as they do at home? Same lifetime benefits, same union representation?

    Do you get it yet?

    By beating up on those "overpaid UAW workers" it doesn't make you any richer. And as far as the cars and trucks go, there isn't a huge gap. But you are helping throw your neighbor under the bus. But go one falling for the "global economy" crapola. May as well trust Jim Jones for a glass of KoolAid

    Mediocre, dare the subject of Toyota sludge raise it's ugly head again? Or Tundra tailgates and FJ bodies? And let's not talk about the extreme corrosion issues that were a hallmark of Asian imports all through the 70s & 80s.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    I’ve disappointed with new Pilot, but happy at same time. I thought it will look better than GM.
    image
  • unixxusunixxus Member Posts: 97
    I agree. The 2009 Honda Pilot is really ugly. For a while I thought it the new Pilot would be sporty or borrow lines from the MDX. However, I'm sure people will blindly buy it without giving a second look to the CX-9, Acadia etc because of it's big 'H' logo.
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    You're obviously reading from the "American Auto Industry Propaganda Weekly" (I see similar lines of reasonings in different forums, you guys are organized!)

    I'll say one last thing about this, since it's the topic of a different forum:

    The Big Three decline is not due to the UAW workers: it's the Suits that made horrible decisions, especially the bean counters who toned down quality for years. Instead of trying to make better cars to gain more profit, they laid off workers. Go figure. I'm amazed that workers are still defending management's ineptitude...oh well.

    The Acadia is a great car. Huge turnaround for GM. Hopefully GM management won't screw it up...
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The United Automobile Workers of America (UAW) discussion is better suited for this thread so please take up the "decline of the Big 3" over there. Thanks.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Any word on fixing the bugs here in the forums?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Nothing new. You can follow the Forums Software! Your Questions Answered... discussion for updates.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks - I didn't know it existed!
  • draymond2draymond2 Member Posts: 134
    My Wife was seriously considering the new Pilot until she saw the pictures, wow that is freaking ugly. I guess Honda doesn't really care about the look of their vehicles. Other than the new civic, most are hard on the eyes.

    My brother n law bought a new Ridgeline last year and I was kidding him about how ugly it looked. He didn't care, he only buys hondas, if honda made underwear he would buy them. I guess that's common among many honda buyers.........
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Larry: thanks for the informative posts.

    Looks like Ford has some serious potential with this technology, let's see how they execute.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hope she has a good personality. ;)

    Edmunds' Blog on the 09 Pilot concept:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4093

    The Forester looks much better:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4097

    The X6 doesn't offer much utility, but here's the link since I'm there anyway:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/.eea2390

    Here's Lincoln's go at the Flex platform (I like the Ford better):

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/.eea2478

    Toyota Venza non-Crossover (reverse psychology at play?):

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4118

    Anyone else think they copied the MDX styling? Blatantly?

    Lots of stuff at NAIAS. Anyone going?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, anyone get both right?

    I got the Malibu right, but I said Enclave, so I was 1 out of 2.

    Anyone pick both correctly?

    GM probably was hurt by having the Tahoe hybrid and Enclave competing against each other, splitting votes from GM fans.

    Any how, Mazda is flying high, on cloud nine.

    For those who think this award is for "Made in Japan" only, this is the first time Mazda has been awarded. Also, Malibu beat Accord, and remember these are North American journalists voting here.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Here's Lincoln's go at the Flex platform (I like the Ford better):

    But you would never know the two were related by looking at them. That's the most impressive thing about the MKT to me. I expected something completely different I have to say.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, definitely great job being distinct from the donor car.

    Even more than the Enclave is from the Acadia/Outlook.

    Too bad the Lincoln looks...awkward.
  • cason1cason1 Member Posts: 65
    Toyota Venza non-Crossover (reverse psychology at play?):

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4118

    Anyone else think they copied the MDX styling? Blatantly?


    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    As for the new Pilot, I find it pretty disappointing. I briefly considered waiting around to buy until the Pilot design was unveiled, but I'm glad I didn't bother because the design is much to safe for my taste.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just in case anyone doesn't agree, click on the thumbnail to see.

    Looks like Toyota changed the grille and the color. That's about it.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    I think Venza is more close to size of RDX. But anyway, good picture to compare both vehicles. What for design, it wasn't surprise to me, because if I'm right the biggest car designer school located in CA. So, most car designers come out from same school.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, I think it'll probably end up quite a bit smaller than the Highlander (information is pretty scarce, though).

    I haven't even seen good photos of it, it's just not getting much coverage.
  • cason1cason1 Member Posts: 65
    I went out to the Toyota site and it does appear to be smaller than the Highlander. When you get a little better view of the front, it looks a bit like a more stylized version of the Ford Edge (at least it does to me)...so there you have it, an MDX with a stretched Ford edge grill and headlights. Oh...and it has the CR-V style shifter on the dash and the smallest rim size is 19" dia. It will be interesting to see the pricing.
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,783
    Yeah, I think it'll probably end up quite a bit smaller than the Highlander (information is pretty scarce, though).

    Some prelim measurements are on the Toyota press release, and you can find more coverage here.

    Its about the length of a Tribeca, with the height of an Outback (as well as ground clearance), but with a longer wheelbase than either. Sounds smart to me, but not really a competitor to CUV's in this thread.

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0 / 03 Montero Ltd

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sounds smart to me, but not really a competitor to CUV's in this thread.

    There's no specific CUV included or excluded from this thread, best I can tell. Bring on the comparisons!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They call it a "crossover sedan". :D

    Sounds better than crossover hatchback, I suppose.

    The narrarator got tangled up with the name, watch the video and he sys "Venda...Venza".

    I dunno, this had better handle like a champ.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I dunno, this had better handle like a champ.

    It has that pesky indicator of flabby handling on its hood... a lowercase t.
  • tencjeddtencjedd Member Posts: 44
    I think the lambda folks are just jealous because the FS was out 2 years before the lambda, which is pretty much a copy of the FS design, just a few inches wider. The FS was the first in this category...providing adult seating in all three rows and decent cargo behind the 3rd row in a CUV.

    Now that's a funny post!

    Just so were all on the same page, the Chrysler Pacifica defined the class and was in the market nearly two full years ahead of the FS! Know what you're talking about before proclaiming yourself an expert. Having had both through rental agencies, the Pacifica drove circles around the FS as well as having a tremendously nicer fit and finish on the interior. But I digress,...

    If you think the Lamda's are a mere copy of the FS you should go to a doctor and have your eyes examined. They are far from similar, and the Enclave in particular is both more elegant AND sporty when compared to a FS/TX!
  • tencjeddtencjedd Member Posts: 44
    I have applauded Ford for it's efforts in bringing AWD to the mainstream. As many long time posters on here know, I'm not a Ford fan at all but they have almost made AWD available across the board in their cars and for that I am happy, even if it isn't the best AWD out there.

    Ford brought AWD to the mainstream? Are you kidding? Audi and Subaru were GENERATIONS ahead of Ford in bringing AWD into the mainstream!!
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    GM probably was hurt by having the Tahoe hybrid and Enclave competing against each other, splitting votes from GM fans.

    I had my bet on the Tahoe Hybrid, but the $50k price tag is probably what did it in. GM is way off base with that pricing, sure you're helping the environment, but for $50k I can think of many other vehicles I'd rather buy than a Tahoe.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    talk about alienating your "buy it blindly" customers... I can't wait to hear about the spin they put on the customer clinics with that one... It seems they picked up the aztek designers that were canned from gm. another buyer for ford to make a big play for as I can't see anyone wanting to drive anything that looked like that.

    the lincoln, for as good as the flex is the lincoln is horrible and should be parked next to pilot in the design study crusher. All I can think of is "does this lincoln make my a__ look fat"? the rear of that device could not be more horrifically proportioned and the front is a face only a mother could love, the rest are all quite safe as would be expected in aim to keep market share.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    the Enclave in particular is both more elegant AND sporty when compared to a FS/TX!

    Elegant is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, no 5,000+ lb utility vehicle will ever be elegant in my opinion. It's not as guilty as some Cadillac vehicles of being too bold to be elegant, however. The big nose of the Buick is sort of in-your-face. Bold, but not elegant to me. It's not bad looking at all though.

    Calling a larger, heavier, Buick-tuned vehicle more sporty than ANYTHING is a funny post, however. They are more luxurious than the Ford, but I think that's where it ends.

    By the way, the Chrysler Pacifica we used to move some things to the gulf coast after Hurricane Ivan was nothing worth talking about. Cheap interior plastics and poor tactile quality to the switchgear. It was less than a year old (20k miles on it) and had a couple of interior lights burned out already (such as those behind the climate controls).

    We've had two Chryslers - there's a reason we didn't remain loyal to them.
  • romagjackromagjack Member Posts: 5
    How about Venza vs. Murano:

    Venza 189 L, 75 W, 63.4 H, 109.3 WB
    Murano 188.5 L, 74.1 W, 67 H, 111.2 WB
  • sssfegysssfegy Member Posts: 132
    "sure you're helping the environment"
    Who said hybrids are better for the environment? Every long-term test I've seen gave vehicles like Wrangler and small ecomy cars in Europe a MUCH higher rating, they always fell in the middle of the scale, these tests take in account what it takes to build them all the way to when you need to get rid of that battery!
    Great job Mazda, they had to make the car so big so nobody would miss it this time!
    Roll stabillity control anybody?
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,783
    I guess I see the height as being a big difference between the Murano and Venza. Remember, a few folks on this thread think the Taurus X is a wagon because of its height, and this Venza is considerably shorter than a TX.

    Besides, 95% of the content on this thread is about the 3-row CUV (Acadia, TX, CX9, Outlook, Enclave and to lesser extent, Highlander, Tribeca and Pilot). I know what cars are listed on the column on the right, but how often does the Santa Fe, Outlander, VUE or RDX come up in this discussion thread? So a 2 row thing like the Venza that's effectively Outback size doesn't seem to really be aimed at the same market.

    That said, I have weird requirements for my next vehicle...I personally want something long (for cargo and legroom) but with a shorter roof height (garage friendly with roof cargo box) and AWD. Like an R-class but reliable. So this thing is definitely on my radar screen now. :shades:

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0 / 03 Montero Ltd

  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Just so were all on the same page, the Chrysler Pacifica defined the class

    The class I was talking about was a CUV that could carry 6-7 adults plus luggage. The Pacifica couldn't carry much of anything behind the 3rd row and only held 6 pass despite being so wide. And is the Pacifica AWD? I'm not sure.

    CUV like the lambdas, CX-9, etc are in the same class as the TX/FS, since they can hold 3 rows of adults plus luggage. So that's the class of CUVs I'm talking about, adults in all rows plus a good amount of luggage space behind the 3rd row.

    Plus I'm not talking about exterior sheet metal, but rather the interior capabilities.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Well since I wasn't saying one wins or the other loses I don't know where you are coming from. I have stated my opinions as well as stated that those same opinions are just opinions. Several times you took those opinions of mine, compared them to what Honda offers, and boasted that Honda wins.

    Oh- I could point out several times your use of "Ford wins" but why? You haven't shown me any examples of my saying Honda wins (I know I have, but I'm going to do as much work as you did).

    If you still think it was reverse sensors then either find the post where you made that statement or find them on this page which is the official Honda Pilot specs page on the Honda web site. Go ahead and build a top of the line Pilot while you're there too. You'll see the same thing I do which is that reverse sensors are a dealer installed option and do not come from the factory standard or not.

    I know they are a dealer option- but dealer option is still an option.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    The big plus in Ford Flex 2009 is that it will come with new Eco-Boost system which according to Ford will improve MPG by 20%. So with same 3.5l engine and 6 speed trany official EPA numbers should look like 19 city/28 hw MPG. That will be a huge plus comparing to any other CUV's especially acadia-outlook because interior space difference will be gone as well.

    I think the Outlook gets 18/19 and 24/26.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Looking through Detroit Auto show picks and the Pilot looks terrible to me. Is this Honda's new design theme? Ugly with a touch of futuristic? Looks like they applied MDX skin to an old Pilot body. Hopefully interor room will make up for it.

    The Lincoln looked great- until I saw the back. Hpefully they were being creative- CONCEPT creative and not production creative. If they reshape that butt, this could be a hit seller.

    And that Venza does look like an MDX (actually, maybe better).
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    "The class I was talking about was a CUV that could carry 6-7 adults plus luggage. The Pacifica couldn't carry much of anything behind the 3rd row and only held 6 pass despite being so wide. And is the Pacifica AWD? I'm not sure."
    Yes Pacifica has option AWD.
    And we all know your TX is best in class with the lowest sales numbers. Is it something telling you?
    Useless arguments.
  • tencjeddtencjedd Member Posts: 44
    Bob,

    The Pacifica is (and was) available in AWD long before the FS. And neither the FS, Enclave, or CX-9, despite having 7 cuft more space behind the 3rd row than a Pacifica, will carry 7 adults plus luggage for all passengers, without use of the roof. But the point was the Pacifica defined and started the crossover class. What happened after that is just copy and modify. (Kind of the same way Chrysler invented the minivan class - even if Ford blew their chance to beat Chrysler to the punch on it).

    I spent 3 years as a "road warrior", flying around for my job and renting cars 30-40 weeks a year. I'd easily log 30k+ miles in rental cars a year, criss-crossing the midwest to see customers and do crop tours. I'd purposely rent cars that I had an interest in buying. I've done Pacifica vs. FS comparison. The Explorer vs. Grand Cherokee vs. Envoy. The reality is, Ford's interiors are the worst among US automakers. Their plastics are rock hard and poor fitting. And their dash layouts and design are just totally UNINSPIRED. I'm guessing their engineers just don't enjoy spending anytime in a car.

    I will say I agree with you on Chrysler's quality issues. I too owned two, and don't see myself buying another one anytime soon, even if for the most part, they drive the best of the American autos in their respective classes. Chrysler does have some of the best design work (interior and exterior) among the US automakers.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think the Outlook gets 18/19 and 24/26.

    Nope.

    16/22 for AWD models.
    16/24 for FWD models.

    You have to compare apples to apples, and that means using the revised EPA standard for 2008. See Fueleconomy.gov for details.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    It's funny that it doesn't get much attention here. Went to check it out last weekend and was frankly impressed. Much more than I had ever expected from a Hyundai. If one ignores the nameplates, the VC Limited is clearly more luxurious in feel than the Highlander or TX in limited trim. The top-end leather in the limited is very impressive. Living with snow/ice covered streets 5 months of the year, the AWD lock is a nice feature. There really wasn't much not to like but they were there. Little things like the fact that the sliding second row seat goes all the way back every time. Models with 2nd rows that slide, but which remember that position after flipping for 3rd row access will stop many arguments. "Dad, tell Adrian to slide his seat forward, he's crushing my knees!" I can already predict and am dreading. 3rd row headrests are marginally low for me but should be fine for 2 of our kids for a very long time. In the end, am I willing to pay as much for a Hyundai as a Toyota or Subaru? Don't yet know the answer to that. The lack of a split 3 row still really handicaps the Highlander in my view. I am waiting for a Tribeca to arrive at the dealer to assess the 3rd row in it. TX remains the economical and functional leader, but now that it seems that we've decided the new CUV will replace my wife's car, personal taste and feeling of luxury has re-entered the equation.
  • nxs138nxs138 Member Posts: 481
    My wife really liked the Veracruz, but what turned us off was the lack of availability of the Limited model. Otherwise, the interior is very nice, nicer than the Highlander, as is the ride (a little soft, but comfortable). The car is a great deal lately since people are getting deals way under invoice, so in the end I'd rather get a VC than a Highlander, if I had to choose between the two.

    I believe Hyundai will start actually marketing the VC in 2008 (they really dropped the ball in 2007, imo), so maybe people will pay attention.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    And we all know your TX is best in class with the lowest sales numbers. Is it something telling you?
    Useless arguments.


    You might want to reread my post. I didn't say that the TX was best in class. Just that the TX/FS was the first CUV that could hold 3 rows of adults and a good amount of luggage behind the 3rd row.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Again, I was looking at the interior layout and capabilities of the current CUVs that are designed to hold a adults and stuff. I think if you look at a lambda, TX and Pacifica that it would seem to me that the lambda looks more simliar inside (2nd row bench, good cargo space behind 3rd row, etc then the Pacifica. On the other hand, one can have the opinion (like you does) that the Pacifica was the first early form of CUV, although I think that the FS roots come turning the Explorer into a CUV, versus copying the Pacifica...my opinion...and that CUVs following the FS/TX were more similar to the FS/TX than the Pacifica.

    The reality is, Ford's interiors are the worst among US automakers.
    Correction, YOUR reality....
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