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However(no I don't work for Chrysler, but have 3 Dodge/Chrysler's I'm happy with)this fall hopefully sooner, Dodge & Chrysler will have totally new designed 2008 minivans worth checking out. Am anxious to see & drive them. The Chrylser seems to have all your looking for and additional options not on other minivans or many cars. Fully loaded though can get you at around $42K. Not loaded, in the $20's.
Hope that helps.
Huh? The Sienna AWD comes with run-flats, not a can of fix-a-flat. And AWD comes in two higher trim lines, not one lower one.
P.S. I'm not saying run-flats are a good thing. Fast-wearing and expensive to replace.
Not on Toyota's website, but Toyota's online build tools aren't very good.
All family vehicles eventually are seen as mommymobiles. Nothing wrong with that. The "image" part of a motor vehicle is pretty silly overall.
Correct, and when you go to sell them, the Sienna will retain more of its original value. So you more than make it up. I bet ownership costs are actually lower once you factor that in.
I'm not kidding, either. Just went to cars.com. 2006 Sedona EX, $21k (there was no Entourage in 2006). They have 3 2006 Sienna XLE Limited, priced $32.5k to $33k.
msindallas: I owe you an apology, I thought your handle stood for "Ms." in Dallas. Sorry 'bout that.
-juice
The only trim you can't get it in is the base CE trim.
So basically it's the other way around.
So doesn't that mean they are both about $2-3K less than actual purchase price?
EX's were going for 23 new...maybe less
To know the actual residual we'd need to know what they paid originally and what they actually sell for.
Since that's hard, we can look at Automotive Lease Guide instead, for residuals that lease companies believe in enough to bet their money on:
https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx
Sienna gets 4 stars, Sedona only gets 2. So you pay less up front, but you will lose a much higher % of what you paid when you go to sell it.
I've always told people to buy what you love. The better products hold more of their original value so TCO is similar.
For crossovers:
CR-V: 5 stars (!)
MDX, Forester, Element, FX, RX, CX7, Tribeca: 4 stars
RDX, Q7, X3, X5, Pacifica, Edge, Acadia, Pilot, Santa Fe, Murano, Outlook, XL7, Highlander, XC: 3 stars
SRX, Equinox, Freestyle, Endeavor, Outlander: 2 stars
Rendezvous, Entourage: 1 star
Ouch, Entourage gets only 1 star. They only came out in 2007 so that's just a forecast, but that's pretty sad. They're good vans!
I think we started on this track when the Uplander was being considered, well looks like depreciation on that model is pretty poor. Unless the buyer is getting a rather huge discount up front and/or plans to keep it forever, there are better choices out there.
I hope for their sake they can keep it up.
What is the percentage difference between the stars...5%, 10%?
How long a period are they talking about...3yr depreciation, 5yr depreciation, etc..
Also, they "utilize the actual transaction price that consumers pay for a vehicle".
That means they already take in to account the great deals and discounts, incentives and rebates. They're not just measuring residual as a % of MSRP. MSRP is meaningless nowadays.
The star rating system makes it simple. You can get details, but you'd have to pay for the service and subscribe. Lease companies use their numbers in actual transactions, so you can have faith in the star ratings.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/alg/index.html
The ratings are for 3 year residuals, FWIW.
I guess we could subscribe and chew on the data, but they're putting it in a consumer-friendly format, so that would sort of defeat the whole purpose.
If you trade every 3-4 years, isn't a lease the best way to go anyway? Then you just go for the cheapest lease you can find because you are pretty much long-term renting them anyway.
When the insurance gives you fair market value for the car, you could be looking at more out of pocket than you anticipated when you try to replace your wrecked car (gap insurance would be an option).
For example (not real figures), let's say the Freestyle has a 2 star rating and the Outlook as a 3 star rating and the 3yr value for a 2 star vehicle is 55% of cost while for the 3 star vehicle is 60% of cost...therefore a 5% difference. But if a similarly equipped Outlook costs $34,000 and Freestyle only $30,000, then after 3 years, the Outlook will be worth $20,400 and the Freestyle $16,500, so over the 3 years, it cost you $13,600 to drive the Outlook ($34,000-$20,400) but only $13,500 ($30,000 - $16,500) to drive the Freestyle, but you can only make these sort of comparisons if you know how the stars are calculated. Otherwise you may wrongly think that buying a 4 star vehicle is always better than buying a 3 star vehicle. On the other hand, a more expensive vehicle could have enough of a better depreciation to compensate for the initial higher cost, but you can’t tell from just a Star rating.
So for me the Stars don’t mean much other than to stick on some advertisement in a magazine.
Also, it would be better to see the for a variety of years and not just for 3 years, since many people have 5 year loans, so a five year depreciation would be pretty useful too of course if they provided the details and not just the stars.
My understanding (I have the bench seat) is that the 2nd Row Captains chairs slide fore / aft.
The FS is built like a Volvo; the doors are thick and solid. I have a very large area on which to rest my left arm - at the window level. That is one thick door. I believe this was a design choice, for extra safety, and not an accident.
Well, if you go that route, then the stars carry a *lot* more importance, because that's what the lease companies are using to calculate your costs.
I see your point about driving it until the wheels fall off, especially since I've kept my last two cars for 7 and 9 years each. However, resale still matters - I got $5500 for my Subaru after those 9 years, and only paid $19k for it new. That's a 4-star ALG rated vehicle.
I'm lucky if anybody would give me the price of a really nice dinner for my family as a trade-in or sale
$5500 is a pretty expensive dinner!
I bet if I had chosen a vehicle with 1 or 2 stars I'd only be getting $3000 for it. It's still significant, even 9 years later! It still matters, folks!
However, you're overlooking something - generally a buyer will shop in a certain price range.
For instance, I'll use myself as an example. We ended up getting a Sienna LE with the safety features and my preferred options for $25,247.
I could have bought an Entourage SE for $22-23k or so. BUT that's not how people think. Instead, they think, hey! I can get an Entourage Limited, and add a moonroof, for the same price! Heated leather seats, power tailgate. I'd have to give up the 8th seat and a 6CD changer (Hyundai is weird in that the Limited only has a single CD standard), but that is what most shoppers will do - buy extra features and still fit the same budget.
So either way, I was going to spend $25k or so. Not a significant difference in up-front costs, it's just that the Hyundai would have been more loaded.
OK, so now the 4 star Sienna vs. the 1 star Entourage had more meaning. See what I mean? We're talking about residual values as a % of the $25k I would spending regardless of which one I chose.
I guess in your example we could look at a base model Saturn Outlook vs. a loaded Freestlye with a movie player and leather, something like that.
Even with a 5 year loan, the 3 year redisual matters because you don't want to end up upside down if your needs change suddenly or if the vehicle is wrecked and totalled.
I agree with you that it would be nice to have the specific numbers but ALG ain't givin' 'em to us for free and I'm not forking out a couple hundred bucks just to satisfy our curiosity!
I had an unusual experience today. Went to test drive a Sienna, after all the inputs. I think it beats all the crossovers/SUV's I have tested so far in (combined) power, handling, space, visibility, comfort, location of the shift lever, folding console and the sliding doors. It had that crumple zone, too. What was unusual was the salesman. He made the following points:
1. You want HID, I can put that on ANY trim level, you don't have to get the Limited for that.
2. Other than the moonroof, I can install any option you want on any trim, and it will be cheaper than the factory.
3. Do not get the power sliding doors, kids play with them continuously and ruin them. Save your money on that one.
4. If we do not have the exact set of options you want, we'll order it, but you have to wait 3-4months for it.
Now I have to go through the trim levels again to figure out which one I want. Oh, he mentioned the $1500 rebate and that the 08 Highlander I am waiting for to see may not arrive until Nov. He also told us not to bother about the 7-seater RAV4, the 3rd row was small even for the kids. And finally, a handshake and summary with the SM and we are on our way. No sales pressure!
I dragged a colleague with me to the dealer, and he commented that the guy wont last long in car sales. But I was impressed. If I do end up buying it, he is going to get my business. Am still in the comparison mode, so writing this - I know this is the crossover thread. I will move over to another thread when I make my decision. No flames, please. Best wishes, - MS.
Personally, I don't think that lease is the best way to go, but thats for myself. I figured it out a few weeks back and posted it on the buying vs. leasing thread on the smart-shoppers forum, and boy did I get flamed for writing it!
You can actually calculate whats the best way to go if you have the numbers (monthly cost of leasing vs. monthly cost of buying). Apparently it costs a few $100's if you want to know the residuals from ALG. You to go to a dealer, ask for his lease quote and how he gets his numbers, and he will show you the residual numbers. Only a matter of time before that info gets published on Edmunds.
I am going to go that route - driving a new vehicle every few years (buying them, never leasing), and info on depreciation will help me a lot to figure out how much I need to save for my next vehicle. The star's are going to be useful in the 1st round of elimination, as an approximation - putting my own numbers for comparison.
I agree. The Freestyle has the same thick doors like Volvos, except on Volvo styling the "ledge" is on the outside of the vehicle and on the Freestyle it's on the inside.
I have the same issues with safety ratings in stars that I do with the depreciation star ratings. I wish they used a number scale because today there are a lot of vehicles out there with 5-Star safety ratings for side impact, for example, but I'm sure some cars are better than others for side impact even if they're both rated 5 Stars. At least have 10 stars available, so you can distinguish between all of the 5 Star rated vehicles.
not 100% positive as anything can be changed if you spend enough money but I suspect you are stuck with blue lights...
glad to hear you are enjoying your new ride otherwise...
Sure, you can buy parts off the shelf and have the dealer intall them. I'm not sure it would be cheaper that way, though. You have to pay the parts cost plus labor to have it installed.
The power sliding doors are my favorite feature by far. I have an 8 year old and a 4 year old. Took me about 15 seconds to show them how the doors worked and to set the rules for when to use them. No problem whatsoever.
The manual doors are a bit heavy and cumbersome for a 4 year old to handle, so I beg to differ, I think power doors are the way to go. No slamming, no jamming.
It's funny, lots of people want power mirrors and power passenger seats, but think about it - you use the doors MUCH more often than anything else in the entire vehicle! Spend the money where you will use it the most.
I have power mirrors, and guess what? I've used them ONE time!
I use the power doors at least 4 times every single trip. Open, Close. Then arrive and open, close again.
The tailgate has a closer assist, so you don't have to slam it shut. Just push it down, a power mechanism closes it with the right amount of force. Pretty cool. Only the CE lacks this neat bonus.
The CX9 I test drove had a power tailgate, that's pretty cool too (available on most newer crossovers). Imagine having a heavy load of groceries in your hand, and just pressing a button, vs. having to put everything down.
Pick the things that makes your life easier most often.
SUV/Crossover was the only one in my list a few months ago. Candidates were,
- Veracruz
- 04/05/06 MDX (cheaper than current, and rear turn is yellow, etc.)
- Pilot
I first dumped the high-hope Pilot because
1> high gravity felt during test drive ...
2> shorter and no space compare my grand-old '99 Ody.
3> '99 Ody had lot more driving fun, better 1st & 2nd shift handling over it.
MDX was dropped even though
1> space, space, space
2> just a center VAC for 2 rows
Vera was considered afterward for
1> space is clearly not significantly better than MDX
2> steering feedback is too artificial compared w/ '99 Ody, not to mention MDX
So, I realized comfort and space are more important, but I still need one has AWD. So, have to turn back to minivan. I eventually bought a Sienna XLE w/ AWD for reasons,
1> My favorite Ody doesn't offer AWD
2> Chrysler T&D is not a qualified candidate based on reliability and my own personal experience of "domestics".
3> Toyota has 0% APR
I didn't go w/ Limited w/ HID because it adds $4K+ and the Dynamic Cruise is confused and useless.
BTW, none of today's Crossover are not really "crossing", they all appear as SUV in size and other prospect.
Some CUVs are more car-like (eg Freestyle is like a big station wagon), some more minivan-like (lambda's with the largest overall cargo area), and some more SUV-like (maybe Pilot, but I think it's advertised by Honda as a true-SUV).
If you need true offroad with towing...get an SUV.
If you need max interior pass/cargo space and don't have an offroad or huge towing need...gen a minivan.
If you don't need all that space...get a car.
The 1996 RAV4 may have been one of the first, it was a cross between a station wagon and an SUV.
Or go back more to the 1995 Outback, a station wagon with SUV characteristics.
New name, but same old concept. The new crossovers are just bigger, and mimick minivan-like space, but that's not really new.
Why exactly do you need the AWD? Is it because of traction in the snow? Offroading? A dealer in Dallas once told me not to get it - "It snows only twice a year, and on those 2 days the city shuts down, anyway. Why do you need them"? I thought about the MDX for its much touted SH-AWD feature in cornering, but not sure how much I will actually use it (acceleration from the middle of a turn at 0.82g - I do not drive like that usually).
When I test drove the CX-9, the power liftgate wasn't available. May be it is now. Two other issues - I understood you cannot have the sunroof and the DVD player at the same time. Is that still true? I am planning to get an aftermarket DVD player/ceiling mounted folding 12" screen. Is that a problem with the sunroof? Also, I liked the access to the 3rd row, although at the cost of huge rear doors (don't want to leave ding marks on the next car in the parking lot). Sliding doors would solve that problem.
If anybody is thinking about having an aftermarket flip-down DVD put in, talk to the installers before you get a sunroof. Otherwise you may end up with either shoddy install or no DVD.
I got my 12" Jenson at Circuit City, and it's funny you bring that up because the first thing the installer asked was if I had a moonroof. I don't, so that made the install a lot simpler, he told me.
$899 web site price, and they honored it in the store, even though the price was higher in person. We love it. :shades:
7" screens
2 DVD Players
3 wireless head phones
2 wireless game controllers
2 wireless remote controls
15 internal games
Audio/Video ports for Camcorder or Game player like xbox
2 matching leather Headrests.
and run between 15 and 1700. installed...
one 12" screen (arguably better for movies)
1 DVD player (you win)
2 wireless headphones (you win)
Built-in speakers and/or FM Modulation
1 wireless remote (you win)
1 wireless game controller (you win)
30 internal games (finally! I win)
1 set of A/V inputs
Didn't have to touch the headrests. $900 installed.
I guess it depends. Our kids are happy watching the same thing. If your kids are spread out in age, and have different interests, your setup is better.
Gotta tell you, though, the 12" screen is BOSS. :shades:
Do you have a CX-9? or did you get something else... (ps...I got the power liftgate in mine...and it's definately a nice feature.... )
That seems to be the best option in this situation to me. I'm pretty sure Ford offers headrest screens as a dealer installed accessory on most of its vehicles. Not sure if Mazda does the same but it might be worthwhile checking with the dealer.
The factory DVD in our Explorer is just high enough that it doesn't obstruct my view out the rear window but we don't have a moonroof either. With a dual moonroof, like in the CX-9, I'd imagine that an overhead DVD screen would hang too low given that the ceiling sits lower to allow for the glass and sliding roof.
do a wikipedia to learn more...
Technically, they generate light from an electrical arc between 2 electrodes, as opposed to a glowing filament lamp. They consume less power (35W) compared to the halogens (55W), and produce more lumens of light output.
Practically, they are the blueish head lights you see on some cars with a sharp cut off and a small headlamp size. They are bright and offer better visibility, IMO.
I did an evening test drive with those on a Saturn Outlook XR (it's a $500 option), and those lights are awesome. I am not going to buy a car without it. Regards, - MS.