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Comments
1. AWD w/o any traction options
2. AWD w/ limited slip differential (extra ~$300)
3. AWD w/ TRACS/VSC system (extra ~$800)
My take on what has been stated so far is that option #1 above will do better than option #3. I am having a rough time understanding where to place option #2.
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I have never deal with them before. From their web site, it seems you just pay the price they ask for and supposely the price will reflect the market price (demand/supply).
Now, they will sell as MSRP.
Agreed. If you look at the IIHS article that touts side airbags that provide head protection (from curtains or "sausages" like in the X5), you notice that the (manufacturer sponsored?) tests clearly avoid measuring the more common t-bone collision and instead use the less common sliding-sideways-into-a-pole collision.
In:
http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2000/pr121400.htm
They do a pickup-into-vehicle t-bone crash with a lower-seating-position Volvo S80. Obviously the side curtains help because of the height of the occupants in the sedan.
They then do a sideways-into-a-pole test with both the Volvo S80 and the BMW X5, and tout the safety the side curtains or sausages have provided. Yet, curiously, they omit the fourth test which would have been very illuminating -- pickup-into-vehicle with the X5.
Why? Probably because the X5 wouldn't have done quite as well because of pickup injuries inflicted to the thorax, which the X5's head-protection side airbag sausages don't help as much with. The body of the pickup would have pushed the door onto the passenger's thorax.
I couldn't find the article, but I think there was a similar thing with the upcoming 2002 Ford Explorer's side curtain -- IIHS and Ford touted the extra safety margin when sliding sideways into a pole, but didn't address getting t-boned by a car or another SUV. I think the omission is revealing.
If MB does put side curtains in the M-class for 2002, that's a clear advantage and a big asset for MB, since the M-class already has front and rear side airbags to protect the thorax. And I'm sure you're more worried about getting t-boned than having a pole slide into the side of your vehicle!
So, is there a kill switch for VSC (even one that turns off ABS at the same time)?
If not, can one be rigged, i.e., can a switch be installed (by whom?) that turns off VSC. Again, if this rigged switch turns off ABS as the same time, as long as that is known, there is no safety issue that thus results.
We've had our RX (w/Nav) for 5 days now and love it. I had my doubts about spending an extra $2k for the Nav, but I absolutley don't regret it now.
TC
WRT turning off ABS, it is absolutely not a good idea in snow, especially downhill. My M-class has this capability in low range, and I found out the hard way when going downhill on about two inches of snow covered ice; I only tried this special low range algorithm in empty parking lots prior to this experience.
Basically, I slid a couple of hundred feet down my street (about a 10-15% grade) at below 5 km/hr with locked front wheels. It was quite a hair raising experience (since there is a stop sign at the botton of the street, that leads to the main road), and I had to occasionally let go of the pedal to prevent the vehicle from sliding towards the curb (with locked front wheels, directional control is zero). That would definitely stopped the vehicle, but I didn't want to risk ruining the alignment. I got it stopped eventually by rolling over a manhole cover. This extra traction, albeit to only one fo the front wheels, was enough to stop the vehicle. Whew!
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
AND/OR: Can you discribe EXACTLY when it would be good NOT to have VSC. I know deep snow has been mentioned. That's it? An, what would "not good" mean: e.g: the going is slow but it works; you just don't go; it's dangerous, etc?
1. How much does it cost?
2. Does that include installation?
3. Does it have any power outlets?
4. How does it look in person?
5. What opens and closes? What is inside to organize and/or hold stuff?
thanks...
1) shade the back window noticeably?
2) keep the back window cleaner?
3) reduce wind noise? or maybe add wind noise?
4) make a nice towel bar?
If anyone has experience with a rear spoiler on a similar vehicle, ie. RX300 or other suv, it would be interestng to hear your comments, also.
Let the money hungry Toyota know that we, the consumers, are not stupid and unreasonable price will not stand.
Yes, when loaded with everything except the kitchen sink, the highlander gets up to MDX's price. As such, I don't think it's a bargain.
But I don't think Toyota is planning to sell many highlander loaded with everything. It makes more sense to buy a highlander with some common options for under $30K.
I think if Toyota thinks that most Highlander buyers were going to opt for the fully loaded version, they would have just made those items standards and raised the base price.
If you are looking for something with all the gadgets/luxury stuff, it makes more sense to look at some higher SUV (no pun intended).
As for the gulf state. I totally agree. Toyota need to get rid of the middle man. It increases the price, and is bad for business. I don't know why Toyota put up with them in the SE region while the rest of the country does fine without them.
Sold one to a very nice board member local to me and I hope he pops in here to give you his opinions of their new V6 Highlander!
--Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
30" of snow but that the system in this 4-whl drive
car let one wheel spin out of control while locking
the others up.
Standard equipment on LX is pretty complete. Has anyone done the math to compare RX/Highlander with same equipment? Are they not basically twins?
My interest is peaked about the Highlander. I have seen one at the dealer, and I mean ONE. Pricey, 30K! I am not planning to buy until summer anyway..
I would be interested in this from a different point of view: which would tend to work best hauling a boat out of the water ?
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that what you are actually buying, when you order the "VSC option", is software, since the ABS already provides the hardware.
Though you may think you don't need it, it could literally save your life the one time you do. Let's say you have to make an emergency lane change (through no fault of your own) on less than optimal road conditions. There is a good chance that one or more tires are going to break free from the surface and send you into an uncontrolled skid, or worse a rollover. VSC would prevent this.
To get a good explanation of how a vehicle control system works, visit this link:
http://www.conti-online.com/en/contiteves/general/safety/safety_en.html
TC
But this is what Mr. Healey actually said:
"Other all-wheel-drive test vehicles that happened to be on hand zipped up the icy, inclined driveway without spinning wheels or hinting that a low-traction slope was underneath. Those weren't specialty four-wheel-drive vehicles, either, but family machines such as a Chrysler minivan with all-wheel drive. "
"
Thanks !
VSC is a big reason why I just bought a RX300. My attitude is that it doesn't matter how good a driver my wife or myself may be, all it takes is the the weather or the "other guy" to possibly hurt us on the road.
I really don't think there is a price you can put on your family's safety, unfortunately, the automakers (especially American) don't feel the same way and only offer these type of systems on higher end cars. I try to buy as much safety/value as I can afford. Just as airbags are now in almost every car, hopefully these active control systems will trickle down into the mainstream cars soon.
TC
Gulf States stinks. I hate the addition of nice but overpriced junk. You can buy elsewhree to avoid this. Kansas and MO are non-gulf states.
INKY
Tony, pictures say a thousand words (well in this case it would be a movie clip), so click here for a short video clip showing the effectiveness of ESP. I'm sure that you will enjoy it.
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Speaking of car systems, is Bosch still in this game? Haven't really heard of anything from them lately.
TC
Its a toss up...but if you want less than everything on your SUV, the Highlander is probably the route to go.
I'm not sure what many of these stability control equipped vehicles have on-board, but I suspect you are correct. I believe Bosch and GM worked together for the Stabillitrack system. Interestingly though, not all Stabillitrack systems are the same. The one systems in the Cadillacs and the Corvette are better/more advanced than those in the more mainstream (i.e. Bonneville, Park Avenue, etc.) vehicles. I wonder if Toyota has their own in-house supplier for VSC?
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
There was a limited version and a SR5, both V6 2wd.
Engine compartment was well laid out, with all the routine fluid containers easily available. The engine was set down fairly far in the compartment however, I know for stability reasons, but I don't want to imagine how difficult it's going to be to do any extensive work on the engine should you need to.
Previous messages have criticized the Highlander's appearance as being "vanilla". I, personally, do not believe this to be the case. It's not a sports car, but I thought the purpose of an SUV is to get 4-5 people from point A to B in the best comfort/safety as possible? Both my wife and I thought it looked much better than the 4runner or the other Toyota SUV's, not as "boxy" I think I heard someone say.
The interior I felt was very well designed. The lack of a console is a non-issue for my wife and I, she thought it would be great for dropping her bag/purse into, I liked the fact I had space for my right leg. It was the only SUV at the show, I sat in them all, that did not have either the shift lever or parking break lever digging into my right knee. The flat floor was a huge plus, and it easily had the best legroom of any small/SUV in all seating posistions.
An earlier post mentioned that it was hard to reach the wheel if you had the seat all the way back. I agree if you grip it at the top (I'm 6') it's a stretch, but I grip the wheel at the bottom and it was fine. The back seats folded flat very easily, and it was possible to fold the front passenger seat back flat as well if you removed the headrest.
An earlier post asked about hooks for a child seat, there are two of them covered by a snap plastic panel. The back had a good amount of storage space, and thank god a full size spare.
All of the controls were easily reached, and the glove box is huge.
An earlier post questioned the cupholders, but unless your arms are no longer than two feet it should not be a problem for you. My wife and I were wondering why they didn't just put one on the passenger seat, versus both on the drivers seat.
The sales staff was friendly and helpful, and there was a rear window defogger and wiper. I'm sure I've forgotten something, so post a message if you have questions. My wife and I are going to wait several months until the prices come down, but we are definite buyers.
These are opinions,
Good luck to all.
We both like the muscular look of 4Runner and our dogs would enjoy the window that could be roled down in the cargo area during the drive. With the added safety feature like TRAC and VSC, I will feel safer with my wife driving it in the raining days to come in the Bay area. We test drove the HL on Saturday and we just like the powerful enginer and smooth ride on the freeway. We like the bigger interior that HL has over 4Runner but my wife likes the tallerlooks of 4Runner. I am afraid the 4Runner's enginer is underpower and it might get replace with stronger enginer for 2002/2003? Which one should we get?? We are consider to have kid in couple year, which one is better??
Also, on the HL, how come the AWD version that we saw in Bay area, doesn't come with VSC? Only the 2WD has VSC?? Which version is better? AWD or FWD with VSC? Please advise.
Thanks in advance.
Regarding the MDX, you can get one from Sterling McCall Acura for 34,750 without any unwanted stuff; not 37K like you heard some where. The guy name is Bill. He was at the auto show yesterday (Saturday). Unless he lied to me, but he told many people around him...not just me.
I wasn't questioning safety concerns. As someone who runs a data processing/computer shop, the whole issue of what, exactly, "VSC" consists of interests me. Eventually, I assume, someone will purchase a car with various controlling functions as options and those options will be "installed" by the factory or dealer entering a code into the onboard computer which enables that particular chunk of code. In the long run all the sensors will be installed in all cars because they will be used by more than one code module.
Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV.
A similar vehicle but without the stability control system will not have any of the sensors listed in the first sentence of my first paragraph. It will also only have the ABS computer module (which has much less memory capacity than the stability control equipped module).
"Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV."
I disagree. That is exactly one of the reason why I got an SUV. The big question is which SUV to get and what you're willing to tradeoff for compared to a car. The most obvious answer is that for the higher ground clearance, the heavier curb weight, the higher seating position, and the higher position at which the passengers sit (potentially above the impact point when hit by a car for the side), one sacrifices the lower centre of gravity and the nimbleness of a car.
The SUV that I drive was designed to be car crash compatible. I know that its roof will not cave in after most 4-5 rollovers; more importantly, I know that its combination of permanent 4WD, state of the art stability control and ABS, a long wheelbase, 4 wheel independent suspension, a wide track and wide tires will prevent most rollovers from happening in the first place.
It has dual front airbags, side impact airbags in all four doors, 3 point seatbelts for all seating positions with seatbelt pretensioners and force limiters in all front and rear outboard siting positions. It has daytime running lights, good headlamps, as well as front and rear foglamps.
Do I feel safe in it? Yup...I should also mention that I make it a point to understand the limits of my vehicle. I know how hard I can safely push it without completley losing control. I have attended advanced driving courses to familiarise myself with techniques that could potentially get me out of trouble. I'm happy to say that I've already had to put them to use more than once and hence I strongly encourage all drivers to join one of these collision avoidance classes.
Would I consider a new car at this point in time? Yes, I would, but only if it is sufficiently heavy, has just about all of the same safety features listed above and most importantly, it absolutely must have some sort of side impact head protection system (ex. curtain airbags). This is not to say that I'm completely paranoid and won't ride in someone else's car though.
A tip for all of you out there. Please don't rest your hand on the top (12 o'clock position) of the steering wheel with an airbag equipped vehicle. I don't know how many times I've seen people driving like this. Try to keep your hands and the 9 and 3 o'clock position at most times. If you rest your hand at the top of the steering wheel and get into an accident serious enough deploy the airbag, your fist will be driven directly into your face at about 200mph (or whatever speed the airbag deploys). Ouch!
Drive carefully!
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
TC
Houston area Acura dealers are selling the MDX at MSRP with some discounts on after-market accessories and free service visits. The base MDX MSRPs at $34,850. No way would I buy a Toyota HL for the same price as an Acura MDX.
Also the local Toyota dealers are NOT discounting Sequoias much at all either. So if HL sales mimic SQ sale around here I do not expect any significant HL discounts for a while. But who knows. A loaded HL selling for $500 to $1000 above invoice may very well be a good deal, but who knows how long before we see pricing that low. For now I see HL as a VERY good mid-size (although somewhat smallish mid-size!) vehicle that is very overpriced at the moment.
Oh, and if you call, ask for Steve Clifford. Our operator can't figure out who Cliffy is.
Second, as a native of Denver, CO; I have watched too many transplanted Texans and Californians (read: never driven in ice and snow) buy a "safe" SUV and then wind up in a ditch with it during their first winter season with the vehicle. These "warm-weather flat landers" somehow think that by buying a tank-like vehicle, even with Awd/4wd and some type of traction control, will allow them to take a highway turn at 60mph when it is snow/slush-covered/icy roads. I applaud Drew for taking advanced driving courses, but 99% of people don't. The mental overconfidence that SUV's instill in their drivers/owners is just too dangerous.
REMEMBER: All the anti-lock braking systems, big deep traction tires, Awd/4wd systems, traction control, limited slip diffs, and stability control systems WILL NOT DO A BIT OF GOOD unless there is friction between the road and the tires, so on icy/snow covered roads. you still need to SLOW DOWN and allow 3 times the normal breaking distance (just like you're were driving your old Ford Escort)! A good car buyer will get all the safety features they can, but a good *driver* never puts themself in a situation where they rely on the features.
Interestingly enough the proffesional drivers, including the Formula 1 ones, have a completely opposite opinion on this.
I disagree that "deep traction tires" won't do anything. Good winter tires are probably the only things that can dramatically decrease one's stopping distances. These are, after all, the only things on the vehicle that have actual physical contact with the road surface. Since winter tires can bite into the snow/ice (hence significantly improving traction) much better than all-seasons, the ABS won't have to pulse quite as much since the wheels won't threaten to lock up as easily. One does not want wide winter tires though, but narrow (slightly narrower than the stock tires) ones. This puts more psi on a smaller footprint, hence improving traction. Slowing down to an appropriate speed for the conditions is, of course, a good idea.
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
On the inside, I thought the dash was laid out well. Doesn't look dated like the 4Runner. An interesting feature about the rear seats is that the seat bottom lowers as the seatbacks are folded down. So the cargo floor is virtually flat. In the normal position, you can store things under the rear seats. It's nice to have a full size spare and to have it located inside the vehicle and not have to crank it down like on the pickup. I don't care for the hammertone plastic bezels on the dash.
The price: With only 2 HL's on the lot, this dealer was not dealing. In fact, they added 17" wheels and tires on one of them and tacked on an extra $4k for them(yes, $4000.00). Ouch!
How about reading my WHOLE posting. IF there is friction between the road and the tires, yes, traction control, ABS, and big narly tires will help. But if you are in a very slippery situtuation - think black ice - frozen slush (again - ice), all of the above will not help. If there is no friction, you can turn your steering wheel all you want (with ABS brakes) and you are not going to go where you want to - why? Because you need friction in order to steer. Traction control only works if at least one of the tires HAS traction - again, if you're going sideways on ice, and NONE of your tires has any traction (friction between the road and the tires) then traction "control" is useless (and you are still going to be going sideways until one of your tires grabs). Big Narly tires do help in snow, but again, if there is nothing for the tires to grab onto then you're still S.O.L. (though sipping the tires and specially formulated rubber (Blizzack tires) do help eventually "grab" the ice). Formula 1 cars use huge tires to MAXIMIZE contact between the the tire and the track - again - to get the most amount of friction between the tire and the road. If there is the slightest amount of rain on the race track - guess what - they hold the race until the track dries. They do this because professional drivers know that stability control only works if you have traction between the tires and the road. There's no getting around basic physics.
My posting was not say that all these features are useless - because they are great advancements. But too many people new to winter driving think that all these great advancements will allow them to not have to slow down and use caution when the weather turns bad. They put themselves in situations they would not even think about going into if they were still driving a beat-up Gremlin. By driving too fast for the conditions and not allowing more breaking distance, a driver can put their car in a situation where all the traction control/braking enhancements in the world won't help them (again- back to basic physics and inertia).
Case in point: I do drive an SUV, a '94 Jeep Cherokee, with brand new sipped tires. While driving up to the mountains last month, there was a bad snow storm on the way up. Visibility was only about 20 yards at the most and the highway was frozen and snow covered. I put my jeep into 4wd - because the Cherokee normally runs in rear-wheel 2wd and those 2 back wheels have a lot of torque that can cause you to fishtail pretty easily. Even though I'm in 4wd with new tires, I still only drove at about 35-40 mph (the highway has a speed limit of 65) and so did most of the other drivers I saw. Then a brandnew oversized SUV comes flying by us, out of the corner of my eye it was either a Suburban or an Excursion. Despite limited visibility, where you wouldn't have enough time to see a curve to react properly even if the roads were dry, this idiot had to have been going at least 55 mph. I soon lost sight of him, but came across him a few miles later, he was upside and facing the wrong way in a ditch on the outside of curve. The only thing his oversized tank-like SUV helped him with was hopefully protect him AFTER he flipped it (assuming he was wearing his seatbelt). Again, a good driver should never put themselves in a situation where they have to rely upon all their new safety gear. Too many people think that just because they spent the extra money for the safety features, that they can ignore safe driving practices and overcome basic physics.
"I Don't Like SUV's - Why Do You - VIII" this topic has been beat to death there and the now defunct "SUV Poseurs".
You're preaching to the choir.
And besides, soccer moms don't listen to advice because they are too busy talking on their cell phones.
Safe driving,
TC
Dude,
I guess you never watched the Formula 1 events.
I suggest you check the Speedvision channel on your local cable once in a while.