I have been following the newsgroup and am still a little confused about the HLs AWD system. I still cannot answer this question - "If the vehicle were going to be used for driving in snow often, what is the best AWD + option set up?"
My take on what has been stated so far is that option #1 above will do better than option #3. I am having a rough time understanding where to place option #2.
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I have never deal with them before. From their web site, it seems you just pay the price they ask for and supposely the price will reflect the market price (demand/supply).
One has a much greater chance of being hit with a normal height SUV or a car...this is where the side impact airbags (which protect the thorax) comes in.
Agreed. If you look at the IIHS article that touts side airbags that provide head protection (from curtains or "sausages" like in the X5), you notice that the (manufacturer sponsored?) tests clearly avoid measuring the more common t-bone collision and instead use the less common sliding-sideways-into-a-pole collision.
They do a pickup-into-vehicle t-bone crash with a lower-seating-position Volvo S80. Obviously the side curtains help because of the height of the occupants in the sedan.
They then do a sideways-into-a-pole test with both the Volvo S80 and the BMW X5, and tout the safety the side curtains or sausages have provided. Yet, curiously, they omit the fourth test which would have been very illuminating -- pickup-into-vehicle with the X5.
Why? Probably because the X5 wouldn't have done quite as well because of pickup injuries inflicted to the thorax, which the X5's head-protection side airbag sausages don't help as much with. The body of the pickup would have pushed the door onto the passenger's thorax.
I couldn't find the article, but I think there was a similar thing with the upcoming 2002 Ford Explorer's side curtain -- IIHS and Ford touted the extra safety margin when sliding sideways into a pole, but didn't address getting t-boned by a car or another SUV. I think the omission is revealing.
If MB does put side curtains in the M-class for 2002, that's a clear advantage and a big asset for MB, since the M-class already has front and rear side airbags to protect the thorax. And I'm sure you're more worried about getting t-boned than having a pole slide into the side of your vehicle!
From what i understand, you can get great deals on the rx300 so why not pay a little extra and get the rx300 with nav rather than the HL? at 36k, it's close to the level of the ML#320 also. a bit high don't you think.
There appears to be a problem with VSC and 4WD in some situations (deep snow, icy driveways, as I understand). In these two situations, in particular, one could certainly safely turn off VSC without compromising other safety issues (as, in these situations, one is moving very slowly).
So, is there a kill switch for VSC (even one that turns off ABS at the same time)?
If not, can one be rigged, i.e., can a switch be installed (by whom?) that turns off VSC. Again, if this rigged switch turns off ABS as the same time, as long as that is known, there is no safety issue that thus results.
At the present pricing levels for the HL (MSRP), you're exactly right. The RX offers certain other safety features and luxury you just can't get on the HL, but of course, you pay extra for that. But then again, not everyone cares about this stuff and for them a HL will be fine. But at the HL price range, you have many other choices out there.
We've had our RX (w/Nav) for 5 days now and love it. I had my doubts about spending an extra $2k for the Nav, but I absolutley don't regret it now.
Actually icy driveways is where the system excels. It can prevent a spinning wheel from breaking loose and leaking power. It's only in really deep snow that it is a problem without the off-switch.
WRT turning off ABS, it is absolutely not a good idea in snow, especially downhill. My M-class has this capability in low range, and I found out the hard way when going downhill on about two inches of snow covered ice; I only tried this special low range algorithm in empty parking lots prior to this experience.
Basically, I slid a couple of hundred feet down my street (about a 10-15% grade) at below 5 km/hr with locked front wheels. It was quite a hair raising experience (since there is a stop sign at the botton of the street, that leads to the main road), and I had to occasionally let go of the pedal to prevent the vehicle from sliding towards the curb (with locked front wheels, directional control is zero). That would definitely stopped the vehicle, but I didn't want to risk ruining the alignment. I got it stopped eventually by rolling over a manhole cover. This extra traction, albeit to only one fo the front wheels, was enough to stop the vehicle. Whew!
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Our first HL arrived this morning with the VSC. There is no cut off switch. I am honestly still trying to figure out how this TRACS system is suposed to work with a limited slip center differential. I suspect I am missing something here but I can't place my finger on it.
From the Highlander literature, one can not tell where the limited slip differential (if ordered) is located. You say it is at the center location. Are you sure? If it is at this location, it would seem to negate the viscous coupling's ability to transfer energy? Are you sure it is not at the rear location? Thanks.
ANY way to disable the VSC for those times when it could cause problems? Do you think a dealer might tinker and install such a switch?
AND/OR: Can you discribe EXACTLY when it would be good NOT to have VSC. I know deep snow has been mentioned. That's it? An, what would "not good" mean: e.g: the going is slow but it works; you just don't go; it's dangerous, etc?
Hey - wonder if anyone could answer a couple of questions about the optional console.
1. How much does it cost? 2. Does that include installation? 3. Does it have any power outlets? 4. How does it look in person? 5. What opens and closes? What is inside to organize and/or hold stuff?
Just been to Auto show in Houston and could not understand how the HL pricing compared with MDX's. HL with comparable equipment as the MDX runs close to 34K. On top of that, Gulfcoast Toyota added option runs more than 1K and Jay Mark Toyota added $295 for prep charge. They said they may take off $500 on the total and final price around 34.5K. I was told by a Acura rep guy at the show that they would sell a base MDX for $34,750 (Sterling McCall Acura) with 2-3 month wait. So some body please explain why I should buy HL for 34K in stead of MDX for 34.75K.....I really like the HL but it is no where near the MDX.....I think Toyota company should do some thing about this Gulfcoast thing; otherwise a lot of people would take their business else where...correct me if I am wrong...
So the answer is easy. Don't buy HL now because its price will drop in the next few weeks. Just look at Sequoia which is discounted more than $2K in some area just a few short months after its introduction.
Let the money hungry Toyota know that we, the consumers, are not stupid and unreasonable price will not stand.
I think the idea is not to load the Highlander up with every option available.
Yes, when loaded with everything except the kitchen sink, the highlander gets up to MDX's price. As such, I don't think it's a bargain.
But I don't think Toyota is planning to sell many highlander loaded with everything. It makes more sense to buy a highlander with some common options for under $30K.
I think if Toyota thinks that most Highlander buyers were going to opt for the fully loaded version, they would have just made those items standards and raised the base price.
If you are looking for something with all the gadgets/luxury stuff, it makes more sense to look at some higher SUV (no pun intended).
As for the gulf state. I totally agree. Toyota need to get rid of the middle man. It increases the price, and is bad for business. I don't know why Toyota put up with them in the SE region while the rest of the country does fine without them.
can't believe there's a sudden and crazed demand for these. I set up a specific area of my website for photos of all Highlanders in all colors I have ... I have 40 but only had room for 24 til I add the extra room for 24 more. To the question regarding the rear spoiler, it's pretty cosmetically intentioned but they do shade the rear and they do keep a lot of dirt and dust (and snow?) off the rear window too, I imagine. I drove a few today with customers, and I love this car! Smooooooooooth as silk.
Sold one to a very nice board member local to me and I hope he pops in here to give you his opinions of their new V6 Highlander!
The issue is not whether it is 3", 5", 10", or 30" of snow but that the system in this 4-whl drive car let one wheel spin out of control while locking the others up.
Went for a short spin in Limited HL with a "no nothing" salesman and this "suv" is a delight. All vehicles in 2 dealers stock right now are super loaded, top price. In Saturday paper there was an ad for RX300, std. equipment for $31,995 (apparently includes freight etc.) Edmunds TMV for this is 30,856 plus 545 freight: 31,40l. Assume you might be able to get this $600 difference. Standard equipment on LX is pretty complete. Has anyone done the math to compare RX/Highlander with same equipment? Are they not basically twins?
its economics 101 all over again. If your patient and can wait its just a matter of time for production to fill the Toyota lots around the country will Highlanders. Once Dealer lots have enough of these they will bargain, prices will drop. Competition also plays a key role, with the new Saturn VUE, Jeep Liberty, Buick just around the corner. Not to mention what is already on the market in this segment.. My interest is peaked about the Highlander. I have seen one at the dealer, and I mean ONE. Pricey, 30K! I am not planning to buy until summer anyway..
"I have been following the newsgroup and am still a little confused about the HLs AWD system. I still cannot answer this question - "If the vehicle were going to be used for driving in snow often, what is the best AWD + option set up?"
I would be interested in this from a different point of view: which would tend to work best hauling a boat out of the water ?
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that what you are actually buying, when you order the "VSC option", is software, since the ABS already provides the hardware.
The VSC is more than just "software". In order to make a decision it has to determine what the driver/vehicle's intentions were. It does this by sensors on the wheels, steering column, and yaw sensors that determine the momentum angle of the vehicle.
Though you may think you don't need it, it could literally save your life the one time you do. Let's say you have to make an emergency lane change (through no fault of your own) on less than optimal road conditions. There is a good chance that one or more tires are going to break free from the surface and send you into an uncontrolled skid, or worse a rollover. VSC would prevent this.
To get a good explanation of how a vehicle control system works, visit this link:
Drew, you said that "Before I even saw his review, I was absolutely certain that he would critise the AWD system...and I was right!"
But this is what Mr. Healey actually said:
"Other all-wheel-drive test vehicles that happened to be on hand zipped up the icy, inclined driveway without spinning wheels or hinting that a low-traction slope was underneath. Those weren't specialty four-wheel-drive vehicles, either, but family machines such as a Chrysler minivan with all-wheel drive. "
"The VSC is more than just "software". In order to make a decision it has to determine what the driver/vehicle's intentions were. It does this by sensors on the wheels, steering column, and yaw sensors that determine the momentum angle of the vehicle. "
VSC is a big reason why I just bought a RX300. My attitude is that it doesn't matter how good a driver my wife or myself may be, all it takes is the the weather or the "other guy" to possibly hurt us on the road.
I really don't think there is a price you can put on your family's safety, unfortunately, the automakers (especially American) don't feel the same way and only offer these type of systems on higher end cars. I try to buy as much safety/value as I can afford. Just as airbags are now in almost every car, hopefully these active control systems will trickle down into the mainstream cars soon.
In my opinion a stripper RX for 32k is a bad investment. It will have no resale. No CD changer, no roof and no leather. Same way a loaded Highlander for 35k is a bad investment. may as well get a disounted RX 300 loaded in AWD for going price of 36.5k. Gulf States stinks. I hate the addition of nice but overpriced junk. You can buy elsewhree to avoid this. Kansas and MO are non-gulf states. INKY
If you read the Mr. Healey's X5 and M-class reviews, you will see what I mean.
Tony, pictures say a thousand words (well in this case it would be a movie clip), so click here for a short video clip showing the effectiveness of ESP. I'm sure that you will enjoy it.
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I just ordered a Highlander in Houston yesterday. I ordered it without all of the Gulf States Options added. Supposedly, I can do this (they get the car as it comes off the boat) and will get the car I want in a couple of weeks. I ordered the Limited with Leather and the JBL 6-disc DC. (nothing else but floor mats). The cost with taxes and all other annoying dealer charges was ~33.5K. I would agree the MDX has some nicer features (especially extra seats) but I have seen notes showing comparable to be about $37k MSRP before all other charges. That equates to close to $7k difference when all is said and done. The only caveat is that I have not received the car yet and I have a friend who supposedly bought a Rev 4 from SUM in Houston and they added $4000 to the sticker after it was delivered, so we will see if that happens to me.
The center differential is limited slip on all of them. It is a "vicsous coupling" type. The optional Limited slip differential goes on the rear axle and is of the clutch type. I hate clutch type LSDs. The just can't last as long as open differential.
Yup, already familar with that video. I'm pretty sure the Teves system is what goes into 90% of the cars that are using some kind of active control system nowadays.
Speaking of car systems, is Bosch still in this game? Haven't really heard of anything from them lately.
We really liked the V6 Highlander 4x4 that we test drove this weekend. For us, however, we don't have kids to cart around, so the 3rd row of seats in the MDX is not necessary. In fact, we drove that a while back and really liked it--even though the leg room for that third row of seats (seemed to be) under 12". However, with both of these vehicles, by the time you add the basic options, and account for "well if we're gonna spend this much', whats another 2 grand for the ___package", they are probably very comparable in terms of price. However, I do think the Acura is a step above in the terms of build quality, color selections, and I really fell in love with that navigation system, that followed me along the test drive route. But then there is the proven Toyota reliability and the fact that the dealer was throwing in free maintenance and a loaner for the first 24K miles.
Its a toss up...but if you want less than everything on your SUV, the Highlander is probably the route to go.
Yes, Conti-Teves and Bosch are the two big players in this game. MB has offered stability control for over 5 years already (have a look at the 5 years of ESP article), so they have worked extensively with both companies for further development. Check out the links on these pages: 1, 2, 3. A fellow M-class owner hosts the site, so there's a fair bit of MB/M-class info on it.
I'm not sure what many of these stability control equipped vehicles have on-board, but I suspect you are correct. I believe Bosch and GM worked together for the Stabillitrack system. Interestingly though, not all Stabillitrack systems are the same. The one systems in the Cadillacs and the Corvette are better/more advanced than those in the more mainstream (i.e. Bonneville, Park Avenue, etc.) vehicles. I wonder if Toyota has their own in-house supplier for VSC?
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This is my first post on this board although I have read it from the begining. Just went to the Houston Auto Show today and spent an hour looking, asking questions, and trying everything I could about the Highlander without driving it.
There was a limited version and a SR5, both V6 2wd.
Engine compartment was well laid out, with all the routine fluid containers easily available. The engine was set down fairly far in the compartment however, I know for stability reasons, but I don't want to imagine how difficult it's going to be to do any extensive work on the engine should you need to.
Previous messages have criticized the Highlander's appearance as being "vanilla". I, personally, do not believe this to be the case. It's not a sports car, but I thought the purpose of an SUV is to get 4-5 people from point A to B in the best comfort/safety as possible? Both my wife and I thought it looked much better than the 4runner or the other Toyota SUV's, not as "boxy" I think I heard someone say.
The interior I felt was very well designed. The lack of a console is a non-issue for my wife and I, she thought it would be great for dropping her bag/purse into, I liked the fact I had space for my right leg. It was the only SUV at the show, I sat in them all, that did not have either the shift lever or parking break lever digging into my right knee. The flat floor was a huge plus, and it easily had the best legroom of any small/SUV in all seating posistions. An earlier post mentioned that it was hard to reach the wheel if you had the seat all the way back. I agree if you grip it at the top (I'm 6') it's a stretch, but I grip the wheel at the bottom and it was fine. The back seats folded flat very easily, and it was possible to fold the front passenger seat back flat as well if you removed the headrest. An earlier post asked about hooks for a child seat, there are two of them covered by a snap plastic panel. The back had a good amount of storage space, and thank god a full size spare. All of the controls were easily reached, and the glove box is huge. An earlier post questioned the cupholders, but unless your arms are no longer than two feet it should not be a problem for you. My wife and I were wondering why they didn't just put one on the passenger seat, versus both on the drivers seat. The sales staff was friendly and helpful, and there was a rear window defogger and wiper. I'm sure I've forgotten something, so post a message if you have questions. My wife and I are going to wait several months until the prices come down, but we are definite buyers.
All, this is my first post. I just want to say it has been very informative forum. I will need some help here since my wife and I are getting a SUV and we can't decide whether to get a 4Runner 4X4 with Sport PKG or a HL 4X4?
We both like the muscular look of 4Runner and our dogs would enjoy the window that could be roled down in the cargo area during the drive. With the added safety feature like TRAC and VSC, I will feel safer with my wife driving it in the raining days to come in the Bay area. We test drove the HL on Saturday and we just like the powerful enginer and smooth ride on the freeway. We like the bigger interior that HL has over 4Runner but my wife likes the tallerlooks of 4Runner. I am afraid the 4Runner's enginer is underpower and it might get replace with stronger enginer for 2002/2003? Which one should we get?? We are consider to have kid in couple year, which one is better??
Also, on the HL, how come the AWD version that we saw in Bay area, doesn't come with VSC? Only the 2WD has VSC?? Which version is better? AWD or FWD with VSC? Please advise.
Retselydnew: whom did you buy the HL from without the Gulf State in Houston? I was told twice by Jay Mark and Sterling McCall that all vehicles come through Gulf State will have all added port installation options. There is no way around that. I called them "requirement" in my book because they shoved these "options" down your throat whether you want them or not. To me, "options" are optional...I would appreciate if you tell me the dealer name and specifically what options did you get (use option codes for less confusing). Regarding the MDX, you can get one from Sterling McCall Acura for 34,750 without any unwanted stuff; not 37K like you heard some where. The guy name is Bill. He was at the auto show yesterday (Saturday). Unless he lied to me, but he told many people around him...not just me.
"I really don't think there is a price you can put on your family's safety, unfortunately, the automakers (especially American) don't feel the same way and only offer these type of systems on higher end cars."
I wasn't questioning safety concerns. As someone who runs a data processing/computer shop, the whole issue of what, exactly, "VSC" consists of interests me. Eventually, I assume, someone will purchase a car with various controlling functions as options and those options will be "installed" by the factory or dealer entering a code into the onboard computer which enables that particular chunk of code. In the long run all the sensors will be installed in all cars because they will be used by more than one code module.
Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV.
A stability control system in general consists of a steering wheel angle sensor, lateral sensors, and yaw sensors. The vehicle compares the angle that the steering wheel is being turned (and hence where the driver is pointing the front wheels) and the actual movement of the vehicle. If both don't match, the vehicle is start to skid and hence appropriate brake and throttle actions are taken to correct the skid before it even happens. Traction control is integrated with stability control, as is ABS (it also uses the ABS wheel speed sensors to detect wheel slippage).
A similar vehicle but without the stability control system will not have any of the sensors listed in the first sentence of my first paragraph. It will also only have the ABS computer module (which has much less memory capacity than the stability control equipped module).
"Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV."
I disagree. That is exactly one of the reason why I got an SUV. The big question is which SUV to get and what you're willing to tradeoff for compared to a car. The most obvious answer is that for the higher ground clearance, the heavier curb weight, the higher seating position, and the higher position at which the passengers sit (potentially above the impact point when hit by a car for the side), one sacrifices the lower centre of gravity and the nimbleness of a car.
The SUV that I drive was designed to be car crash compatible. I know that its roof will not cave in after most 4-5 rollovers; more importantly, I know that its combination of permanent 4WD, state of the art stability control and ABS, a long wheelbase, 4 wheel independent suspension, a wide track and wide tires will prevent most rollovers from happening in the first place.
It has dual front airbags, side impact airbags in all four doors, 3 point seatbelts for all seating positions with seatbelt pretensioners and force limiters in all front and rear outboard siting positions. It has daytime running lights, good headlamps, as well as front and rear foglamps.
Do I feel safe in it? Yup...I should also mention that I make it a point to understand the limits of my vehicle. I know how hard I can safely push it without completley losing control. I have attended advanced driving courses to familiarise myself with techniques that could potentially get me out of trouble. I'm happy to say that I've already had to put them to use more than once and hence I strongly encourage all drivers to join one of these collision avoidance classes.
Would I consider a new car at this point in time? Yes, I would, but only if it is sufficiently heavy, has just about all of the same safety features listed above and most importantly, it absolutely must have some sort of side impact head protection system (ex. curtain airbags). This is not to say that I'm completely paranoid and won't ride in someone else's car though.
A tip for all of you out there. Please don't rest your hand on the top (12 o'clock position) of the steering wheel with an airbag equipped vehicle. I don't know how many times I've seen people driving like this. Try to keep your hands and the 9 and 3 o'clock position at most times. If you rest your hand at the top of the steering wheel and get into an accident serious enough deploy the airbag, your fist will be driven directly into your face at about 200mph (or whatever speed the airbag deploys). Ouch!
On January 25 my wife and I took delivery on our Highlander V-6 front wheel drive with the Limited package and heated leather seats . We drove a front wheel drive and AWD prior to making our purchase. Our front wheel drive rides and handles just like the Acura we traded. This is the ride and handling we wanted. We've driven our Highlander on the interstate, city and paved mountain roads. It is a fun to drive, has lots of power and great exterior and interior appearance. Our buying experience with the Boulder dealer was excellent.
Yes, for now they are gouging Highlanders with port added options (one is Window Etchings for $795) and selling them more or less at MSRP. I've been told that $400 to $500 discounts are a real possiblity. Most (not all) of the available HLs are loaded, with MSRPs of $31K to $36K. Yes that is not a misprint, the very first HL I saw at a Houston area dealer was MSRP $35,900.
Houston area Acura dealers are selling the MDX at MSRP with some discounts on after-market accessories and free service visits. The base MDX MSRPs at $34,850. No way would I buy a Toyota HL for the same price as an Acura MDX.
Also the local Toyota dealers are NOT discounting Sequoias much at all either. So if HL sales mimic SQ sale around here I do not expect any significant HL discounts for a while. But who knows. A loaded HL selling for $500 to $1000 above invoice may very well be a good deal, but who knows how long before we see pricing that low. For now I see HL as a VERY good mid-size (although somewhat smallish mid-size!) vehicle that is very overpriced at the moment.
Since you live in the DC metro area, why don't you give me a call here in Springfield. The number here is 703-451-0300. We got three V6, AWD models over the weekend. One has leather, VSC, side bags, hitch, heated seats and everything else you can stuff on to one. The other tow are sans the leather, heated seats and hitch but still have the VSC, side bags, roof and all.
Oh, and if you call, ask for Steve Clifford. Our operator can't figure out who Cliffy is.
Bought a Highlander over the weekend. Got the Limited version. My criteria for a car were an SUV like vehicle so I have easy access to the trunk for my 15 hp Yamaha outboard and my Zodiac. I also wanted 20 MPG and the biggest criteria were an automatic that could be towed behind my motorhome with all 4 wheels down without needing a drive shaft disconnect or a transmission pump. This car surprisingly met my criteria. Prior to this car, according to motorhome magazine I would have had to get a Honda CRV, Dodge Durango, Chevy Blazer and a couple of others. I'm very thrilled that I did not have to get those other cars and I love the ride, safety features, looks etc. I was hoping to stay in the mid $20,000 range but once I drove this car I was willing to go to $32,000.
I can't help but notice the talk of the "Gulf States" option package or Window Etchings for $795 (msu79gt82). Window Etching is listed as the #1 scam at http://www.carbuyingtips.com/scams.htm . Everyone should rufuse to pay for it - what a ripoff!!
Second, as a native of Denver, CO; I have watched too many transplanted Texans and Californians (read: never driven in ice and snow) buy a "safe" SUV and then wind up in a ditch with it during their first winter season with the vehicle. These "warm-weather flat landers" somehow think that by buying a tank-like vehicle, even with Awd/4wd and some type of traction control, will allow them to take a highway turn at 60mph when it is snow/slush-covered/icy roads. I applaud Drew for taking advanced driving courses, but 99% of people don't. The mental overconfidence that SUV's instill in their drivers/owners is just too dangerous.
REMEMBER: All the anti-lock braking systems, big deep traction tires, Awd/4wd systems, traction control, limited slip diffs, and stability control systems WILL NOT DO A BIT OF GOOD unless there is friction between the road and the tires, so on icy/snow covered roads. you still need to SLOW DOWN and allow 3 times the normal breaking distance (just like you're were driving your old Ford Escort)! A good car buyer will get all the safety features they can, but a good *driver* never puts themself in a situation where they rely on the features.
Well, a stability control system won't decrease your stopping distance on snow. However, it will give you more control to try to avoid any obstacles. It is best to think of stability control as a steering assist system, rather than a braking assist system. ABS will help to keep the vehicle in a straight line (normally for most nose heavy vehicles, the lighter tailend will break loose and start to swap ends with the front without ABS).
I disagree that "deep traction tires" won't do anything. Good winter tires are probably the only things that can dramatically decrease one's stopping distances. These are, after all, the only things on the vehicle that have actual physical contact with the road surface. Since winter tires can bite into the snow/ice (hence significantly improving traction) much better than all-seasons, the ABS won't have to pulse quite as much since the wheels won't threaten to lock up as easily. One does not want wide winter tires though, but narrow (slightly narrower than the stock tires) ones. This puts more psi on a smaller footprint, hence improving traction. Slowing down to an appropriate speed for the conditions is, of course, a good idea.
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I was at the Toyota Dealership this morning, going in for the routine oil change on my Avalon. While waiting I looked at a new Highlander. My first impression, it looks better in person than the photo's reveal. A second comment, no center console, not a biggy but I do like the one in my Avalon. Now where can I place my music and video cd's, cell phone charge etc...? Could there be a portable console option in the making? Third comment, A little pricey. I didn't have time for a full run down on prices but of the ones I quickly looked at, the Limited, Leather, No sunroof runs 35k ( I don't remember if this was AWD or not the window sticker was on the dashboard and was hard to read), and FWD cloth seating, sunroof 31K. As usual its a new product with new pricing. I'll return for a test drive but at these prices you can have a 1 or 2 year old RX300 loaded.
Finally test drove a HL yesterday just before the game. Drove around town and on the freeway. I was impressed how well it handled uneven road surfaces (my point of reference is a '90 Toyota pickup). Cornering was about what I expected, average for an SUV. Outward visibility was good in all directions, but parking was a little difficult because I couldn't easily judge where the corners of the vehicle were. The noise level was very good.
On the inside, I thought the dash was laid out well. Doesn't look dated like the 4Runner. An interesting feature about the rear seats is that the seat bottom lowers as the seatbacks are folded down. So the cargo floor is virtually flat. In the normal position, you can store things under the rear seats. It's nice to have a full size spare and to have it located inside the vehicle and not have to crank it down like on the pickup. I don't care for the hammertone plastic bezels on the dash.
The price: With only 2 HL's on the lot, this dealer was not dealing. In fact, they added 17" wheels and tires on one of them and tacked on an extra $4k for them(yes, $4000.00). Ouch!
Dudes, How about reading my WHOLE posting. IF there is friction between the road and the tires, yes, traction control, ABS, and big narly tires will help. But if you are in a very slippery situtuation - think black ice - frozen slush (again - ice), all of the above will not help. If there is no friction, you can turn your steering wheel all you want (with ABS brakes) and you are not going to go where you want to - why? Because you need friction in order to steer. Traction control only works if at least one of the tires HAS traction - again, if you're going sideways on ice, and NONE of your tires has any traction (friction between the road and the tires) then traction "control" is useless (and you are still going to be going sideways until one of your tires grabs). Big Narly tires do help in snow, but again, if there is nothing for the tires to grab onto then you're still S.O.L. (though sipping the tires and specially formulated rubber (Blizzack tires) do help eventually "grab" the ice). Formula 1 cars use huge tires to MAXIMIZE contact between the the tire and the track - again - to get the most amount of friction between the tire and the road. If there is the slightest amount of rain on the race track - guess what - they hold the race until the track dries. They do this because professional drivers know that stability control only works if you have traction between the tires and the road. There's no getting around basic physics.
My posting was not say that all these features are useless - because they are great advancements. But too many people new to winter driving think that all these great advancements will allow them to not have to slow down and use caution when the weather turns bad. They put themselves in situations they would not even think about going into if they were still driving a beat-up Gremlin. By driving too fast for the conditions and not allowing more breaking distance, a driver can put their car in a situation where all the traction control/braking enhancements in the world won't help them (again- back to basic physics and inertia).
Case in point: I do drive an SUV, a '94 Jeep Cherokee, with brand new sipped tires. While driving up to the mountains last month, there was a bad snow storm on the way up. Visibility was only about 20 yards at the most and the highway was frozen and snow covered. I put my jeep into 4wd - because the Cherokee normally runs in rear-wheel 2wd and those 2 back wheels have a lot of torque that can cause you to fishtail pretty easily. Even though I'm in 4wd with new tires, I still only drove at about 35-40 mph (the highway has a speed limit of 65) and so did most of the other drivers I saw. Then a brandnew oversized SUV comes flying by us, out of the corner of my eye it was either a Suburban or an Excursion. Despite limited visibility, where you wouldn't have enough time to see a curve to react properly even if the roads were dry, this idiot had to have been going at least 55 mph. I soon lost sight of him, but came across him a few miles later, he was upside and facing the wrong way in a ditch on the outside of curve. The only thing his oversized tank-like SUV helped him with was hopefully protect him AFTER he flipped it (assuming he was wearing his seatbelt). Again, a good driver should never put themselves in a situation where they have to rely upon all their new safety gear. Too many people think that just because they spent the extra money for the safety features, that they can ignore safe driving practices and overcome basic physics.
Comments
1. AWD w/o any traction options
2. AWD w/ limited slip differential (extra ~$300)
3. AWD w/ TRACS/VSC system (extra ~$800)
My take on what has been stated so far is that option #1 above will do better than option #3. I am having a rough time understanding where to place option #2.
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I have never deal with them before. From their web site, it seems you just pay the price they ask for and supposely the price will reflect the market price (demand/supply).
Now, they will sell as MSRP.
Agreed. If you look at the IIHS article that touts side airbags that provide head protection (from curtains or "sausages" like in the X5), you notice that the (manufacturer sponsored?) tests clearly avoid measuring the more common t-bone collision and instead use the less common sliding-sideways-into-a-pole collision.
In:
http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2000/pr121400.htm
They do a pickup-into-vehicle t-bone crash with a lower-seating-position Volvo S80. Obviously the side curtains help because of the height of the occupants in the sedan.
They then do a sideways-into-a-pole test with both the Volvo S80 and the BMW X5, and tout the safety the side curtains or sausages have provided. Yet, curiously, they omit the fourth test which would have been very illuminating -- pickup-into-vehicle with the X5.
Why? Probably because the X5 wouldn't have done quite as well because of pickup injuries inflicted to the thorax, which the X5's head-protection side airbag sausages don't help as much with. The body of the pickup would have pushed the door onto the passenger's thorax.
I couldn't find the article, but I think there was a similar thing with the upcoming 2002 Ford Explorer's side curtain -- IIHS and Ford touted the extra safety margin when sliding sideways into a pole, but didn't address getting t-boned by a car or another SUV. I think the omission is revealing.
If MB does put side curtains in the M-class for 2002, that's a clear advantage and a big asset for MB, since the M-class already has front and rear side airbags to protect the thorax. And I'm sure you're more worried about getting t-boned than having a pole slide into the side of your vehicle!
So, is there a kill switch for VSC (even one that turns off ABS at the same time)?
If not, can one be rigged, i.e., can a switch be installed (by whom?) that turns off VSC. Again, if this rigged switch turns off ABS as the same time, as long as that is known, there is no safety issue that thus results.
We've had our RX (w/Nav) for 5 days now and love it. I had my doubts about spending an extra $2k for the Nav, but I absolutley don't regret it now.
TC
WRT turning off ABS, it is absolutely not a good idea in snow, especially downhill. My M-class has this capability in low range, and I found out the hard way when going downhill on about two inches of snow covered ice; I only tried this special low range algorithm in empty parking lots prior to this experience.
Basically, I slid a couple of hundred feet down my street (about a 10-15% grade) at below 5 km/hr with locked front wheels. It was quite a hair raising experience (since there is a stop sign at the botton of the street, that leads to the main road), and I had to occasionally let go of the pedal to prevent the vehicle from sliding towards the curb (with locked front wheels, directional control is zero). That would definitely stopped the vehicle, but I didn't want to risk ruining the alignment. I got it stopped eventually by rolling over a manhole cover. This extra traction, albeit to only one fo the front wheels, was enough to stop the vehicle. Whew!
Drew
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AND/OR: Can you discribe EXACTLY when it would be good NOT to have VSC. I know deep snow has been mentioned. That's it? An, what would "not good" mean: e.g: the going is slow but it works; you just don't go; it's dangerous, etc?
1. How much does it cost?
2. Does that include installation?
3. Does it have any power outlets?
4. How does it look in person?
5. What opens and closes? What is inside to organize and/or hold stuff?
thanks...
1) shade the back window noticeably?
2) keep the back window cleaner?
3) reduce wind noise? or maybe add wind noise?
4) make a nice towel bar?
If anyone has experience with a rear spoiler on a similar vehicle, ie. RX300 or other suv, it would be interestng to hear your comments, also.
Let the money hungry Toyota know that we, the consumers, are not stupid and unreasonable price will not stand.
Yes, when loaded with everything except the kitchen sink, the highlander gets up to MDX's price. As such, I don't think it's a bargain.
But I don't think Toyota is planning to sell many highlander loaded with everything. It makes more sense to buy a highlander with some common options for under $30K.
I think if Toyota thinks that most Highlander buyers were going to opt for the fully loaded version, they would have just made those items standards and raised the base price.
If you are looking for something with all the gadgets/luxury stuff, it makes more sense to look at some higher SUV (no pun intended).
As for the gulf state. I totally agree. Toyota need to get rid of the middle man. It increases the price, and is bad for business. I don't know why Toyota put up with them in the SE region while the rest of the country does fine without them.
Sold one to a very nice board member local to me and I hope he pops in here to give you his opinions of their new V6 Highlander!
--Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
30" of snow but that the system in this 4-whl drive
car let one wheel spin out of control while locking
the others up.
Standard equipment on LX is pretty complete. Has anyone done the math to compare RX/Highlander with same equipment? Are they not basically twins?
My interest is peaked about the Highlander. I have seen one at the dealer, and I mean ONE. Pricey, 30K! I am not planning to buy until summer anyway..
I would be interested in this from a different point of view: which would tend to work best hauling a boat out of the water ?
P.S. I don't feel that VSC for controlling sideways skids is all that important to me ... I have done without it so far in life
I might be wrong on this, but my sense is that what you are actually buying, when you order the "VSC option", is software, since the ABS already provides the hardware.
Though you may think you don't need it, it could literally save your life the one time you do. Let's say you have to make an emergency lane change (through no fault of your own) on less than optimal road conditions. There is a good chance that one or more tires are going to break free from the surface and send you into an uncontrolled skid, or worse a rollover. VSC would prevent this.
To get a good explanation of how a vehicle control system works, visit this link:
http://www.conti-online.com/en/contiteves/general/safety/safety_en.html
TC
But this is what Mr. Healey actually said:
"Other all-wheel-drive test vehicles that happened to be on hand zipped up the icy, inclined driveway without spinning wheels or hinting that a low-traction slope was underneath. Those weren't specialty four-wheel-drive vehicles, either, but family machines such as a Chrysler minivan with all-wheel drive. "
"
Thanks !
VSC is a big reason why I just bought a RX300. My attitude is that it doesn't matter how good a driver my wife or myself may be, all it takes is the the weather or the "other guy" to possibly hurt us on the road.
I really don't think there is a price you can put on your family's safety, unfortunately, the automakers (especially American) don't feel the same way and only offer these type of systems on higher end cars. I try to buy as much safety/value as I can afford. Just as airbags are now in almost every car, hopefully these active control systems will trickle down into the mainstream cars soon.
TC
Gulf States stinks. I hate the addition of nice but overpriced junk. You can buy elsewhree to avoid this. Kansas and MO are non-gulf states.
INKY
Tony, pictures say a thousand words (well in this case it would be a movie clip), so click here for a short video clip showing the effectiveness of ESP. I'm sure that you will enjoy it.
Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Speaking of car systems, is Bosch still in this game? Haven't really heard of anything from them lately.
TC
Its a toss up...but if you want less than everything on your SUV, the Highlander is probably the route to go.
I'm not sure what many of these stability control equipped vehicles have on-board, but I suspect you are correct. I believe Bosch and GM worked together for the Stabillitrack system. Interestingly though, not all Stabillitrack systems are the same. The one systems in the Cadillacs and the Corvette are better/more advanced than those in the more mainstream (i.e. Bonneville, Park Avenue, etc.) vehicles. I wonder if Toyota has their own in-house supplier for VSC?
Drew
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There was a limited version and a SR5, both V6 2wd.
Engine compartment was well laid out, with all the routine fluid containers easily available. The engine was set down fairly far in the compartment however, I know for stability reasons, but I don't want to imagine how difficult it's going to be to do any extensive work on the engine should you need to.
Previous messages have criticized the Highlander's appearance as being "vanilla". I, personally, do not believe this to be the case. It's not a sports car, but I thought the purpose of an SUV is to get 4-5 people from point A to B in the best comfort/safety as possible? Both my wife and I thought it looked much better than the 4runner or the other Toyota SUV's, not as "boxy" I think I heard someone say.
The interior I felt was very well designed. The lack of a console is a non-issue for my wife and I, she thought it would be great for dropping her bag/purse into, I liked the fact I had space for my right leg. It was the only SUV at the show, I sat in them all, that did not have either the shift lever or parking break lever digging into my right knee. The flat floor was a huge plus, and it easily had the best legroom of any small/SUV in all seating posistions.
An earlier post mentioned that it was hard to reach the wheel if you had the seat all the way back. I agree if you grip it at the top (I'm 6') it's a stretch, but I grip the wheel at the bottom and it was fine. The back seats folded flat very easily, and it was possible to fold the front passenger seat back flat as well if you removed the headrest.
An earlier post asked about hooks for a child seat, there are two of them covered by a snap plastic panel. The back had a good amount of storage space, and thank god a full size spare.
All of the controls were easily reached, and the glove box is huge.
An earlier post questioned the cupholders, but unless your arms are no longer than two feet it should not be a problem for you. My wife and I were wondering why they didn't just put one on the passenger seat, versus both on the drivers seat.
The sales staff was friendly and helpful, and there was a rear window defogger and wiper. I'm sure I've forgotten something, so post a message if you have questions. My wife and I are going to wait several months until the prices come down, but we are definite buyers.
These are opinions,
Good luck to all.
We both like the muscular look of 4Runner and our dogs would enjoy the window that could be roled down in the cargo area during the drive. With the added safety feature like TRAC and VSC, I will feel safer with my wife driving it in the raining days to come in the Bay area. We test drove the HL on Saturday and we just like the powerful enginer and smooth ride on the freeway. We like the bigger interior that HL has over 4Runner but my wife likes the tallerlooks of 4Runner. I am afraid the 4Runner's enginer is underpower and it might get replace with stronger enginer for 2002/2003? Which one should we get?? We are consider to have kid in couple year, which one is better??
Also, on the HL, how come the AWD version that we saw in Bay area, doesn't come with VSC? Only the 2WD has VSC?? Which version is better? AWD or FWD with VSC? Please advise.
Thanks in advance.
Regarding the MDX, you can get one from Sterling McCall Acura for 34,750 without any unwanted stuff; not 37K like you heard some where. The guy name is Bill. He was at the auto show yesterday (Saturday). Unless he lied to me, but he told many people around him...not just me.
I wasn't questioning safety concerns. As someone who runs a data processing/computer shop, the whole issue of what, exactly, "VSC" consists of interests me. Eventually, I assume, someone will purchase a car with various controlling functions as options and those options will be "installed" by the factory or dealer entering a code into the onboard computer which enables that particular chunk of code. In the long run all the sensors will be installed in all cars because they will be used by more than one code module.
Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV.
A similar vehicle but without the stability control system will not have any of the sensors listed in the first sentence of my first paragraph. It will also only have the ABS computer module (which has much less memory capacity than the stability control equipped module).
"Returning to the issue of safety, I believe that someone who *truly* puts the safety of his/her family as top priority will not buy an SUV."
I disagree. That is exactly one of the reason why I got an SUV. The big question is which SUV to get and what you're willing to tradeoff for compared to a car. The most obvious answer is that for the higher ground clearance, the heavier curb weight, the higher seating position, and the higher position at which the passengers sit (potentially above the impact point when hit by a car for the side), one sacrifices the lower centre of gravity and the nimbleness of a car.
The SUV that I drive was designed to be car crash compatible. I know that its roof will not cave in after most 4-5 rollovers; more importantly, I know that its combination of permanent 4WD, state of the art stability control and ABS, a long wheelbase, 4 wheel independent suspension, a wide track and wide tires will prevent most rollovers from happening in the first place.
It has dual front airbags, side impact airbags in all four doors, 3 point seatbelts for all seating positions with seatbelt pretensioners and force limiters in all front and rear outboard siting positions. It has daytime running lights, good headlamps, as well as front and rear foglamps.
Do I feel safe in it? Yup...I should also mention that I make it a point to understand the limits of my vehicle. I know how hard I can safely push it without completley losing control. I have attended advanced driving courses to familiarise myself with techniques that could potentially get me out of trouble. I'm happy to say that I've already had to put them to use more than once and hence I strongly encourage all drivers to join one of these collision avoidance classes.
Would I consider a new car at this point in time? Yes, I would, but only if it is sufficiently heavy, has just about all of the same safety features listed above and most importantly, it absolutely must have some sort of side impact head protection system (ex. curtain airbags). This is not to say that I'm completely paranoid and won't ride in someone else's car though.
A tip for all of you out there. Please don't rest your hand on the top (12 o'clock position) of the steering wheel with an airbag equipped vehicle. I don't know how many times I've seen people driving like this. Try to keep your hands and the 9 and 3 o'clock position at most times. If you rest your hand at the top of the steering wheel and get into an accident serious enough deploy the airbag, your fist will be driven directly into your face at about 200mph (or whatever speed the airbag deploys). Ouch!
Drive carefully!
Drew
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TC
Houston area Acura dealers are selling the MDX at MSRP with some discounts on after-market accessories and free service visits. The base MDX MSRPs at $34,850. No way would I buy a Toyota HL for the same price as an Acura MDX.
Also the local Toyota dealers are NOT discounting Sequoias much at all either. So if HL sales mimic SQ sale around here I do not expect any significant HL discounts for a while. But who knows. A loaded HL selling for $500 to $1000 above invoice may very well be a good deal, but who knows how long before we see pricing that low. For now I see HL as a VERY good mid-size (although somewhat smallish mid-size!) vehicle that is very overpriced at the moment.
Oh, and if you call, ask for Steve Clifford. Our operator can't figure out who Cliffy is.
Second, as a native of Denver, CO; I have watched too many transplanted Texans and Californians (read: never driven in ice and snow) buy a "safe" SUV and then wind up in a ditch with it during their first winter season with the vehicle. These "warm-weather flat landers" somehow think that by buying a tank-like vehicle, even with Awd/4wd and some type of traction control, will allow them to take a highway turn at 60mph when it is snow/slush-covered/icy roads. I applaud Drew for taking advanced driving courses, but 99% of people don't. The mental overconfidence that SUV's instill in their drivers/owners is just too dangerous.
REMEMBER: All the anti-lock braking systems, big deep traction tires, Awd/4wd systems, traction control, limited slip diffs, and stability control systems WILL NOT DO A BIT OF GOOD unless there is friction between the road and the tires, so on icy/snow covered roads. you still need to SLOW DOWN and allow 3 times the normal breaking distance (just like you're were driving your old Ford Escort)! A good car buyer will get all the safety features they can, but a good *driver* never puts themself in a situation where they rely on the features.
Interestingly enough the proffesional drivers, including the Formula 1 ones, have a completely opposite opinion on this.
I disagree that "deep traction tires" won't do anything. Good winter tires are probably the only things that can dramatically decrease one's stopping distances. These are, after all, the only things on the vehicle that have actual physical contact with the road surface. Since winter tires can bite into the snow/ice (hence significantly improving traction) much better than all-seasons, the ABS won't have to pulse quite as much since the wheels won't threaten to lock up as easily. One does not want wide winter tires though, but narrow (slightly narrower than the stock tires) ones. This puts more psi on a smaller footprint, hence improving traction. Slowing down to an appropriate speed for the conditions is, of course, a good idea.
Drew
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On the inside, I thought the dash was laid out well. Doesn't look dated like the 4Runner. An interesting feature about the rear seats is that the seat bottom lowers as the seatbacks are folded down. So the cargo floor is virtually flat. In the normal position, you can store things under the rear seats. It's nice to have a full size spare and to have it located inside the vehicle and not have to crank it down like on the pickup. I don't care for the hammertone plastic bezels on the dash.
The price: With only 2 HL's on the lot, this dealer was not dealing. In fact, they added 17" wheels and tires on one of them and tacked on an extra $4k for them(yes, $4000.00). Ouch!
How about reading my WHOLE posting. IF there is friction between the road and the tires, yes, traction control, ABS, and big narly tires will help. But if you are in a very slippery situtuation - think black ice - frozen slush (again - ice), all of the above will not help. If there is no friction, you can turn your steering wheel all you want (with ABS brakes) and you are not going to go where you want to - why? Because you need friction in order to steer. Traction control only works if at least one of the tires HAS traction - again, if you're going sideways on ice, and NONE of your tires has any traction (friction between the road and the tires) then traction "control" is useless (and you are still going to be going sideways until one of your tires grabs). Big Narly tires do help in snow, but again, if there is nothing for the tires to grab onto then you're still S.O.L. (though sipping the tires and specially formulated rubber (Blizzack tires) do help eventually "grab" the ice). Formula 1 cars use huge tires to MAXIMIZE contact between the the tire and the track - again - to get the most amount of friction between the tire and the road. If there is the slightest amount of rain on the race track - guess what - they hold the race until the track dries. They do this because professional drivers know that stability control only works if you have traction between the tires and the road. There's no getting around basic physics.
My posting was not say that all these features are useless - because they are great advancements. But too many people new to winter driving think that all these great advancements will allow them to not have to slow down and use caution when the weather turns bad. They put themselves in situations they would not even think about going into if they were still driving a beat-up Gremlin. By driving too fast for the conditions and not allowing more breaking distance, a driver can put their car in a situation where all the traction control/braking enhancements in the world won't help them (again- back to basic physics and inertia).
Case in point: I do drive an SUV, a '94 Jeep Cherokee, with brand new sipped tires. While driving up to the mountains last month, there was a bad snow storm on the way up. Visibility was only about 20 yards at the most and the highway was frozen and snow covered. I put my jeep into 4wd - because the Cherokee normally runs in rear-wheel 2wd and those 2 back wheels have a lot of torque that can cause you to fishtail pretty easily. Even though I'm in 4wd with new tires, I still only drove at about 35-40 mph (the highway has a speed limit of 65) and so did most of the other drivers I saw. Then a brandnew oversized SUV comes flying by us, out of the corner of my eye it was either a Suburban or an Excursion. Despite limited visibility, where you wouldn't have enough time to see a curve to react properly even if the roads were dry, this idiot had to have been going at least 55 mph. I soon lost sight of him, but came across him a few miles later, he was upside and facing the wrong way in a ditch on the outside of curve. The only thing his oversized tank-like SUV helped him with was hopefully protect him AFTER he flipped it (assuming he was wearing his seatbelt). Again, a good driver should never put themselves in a situation where they have to rely upon all their new safety gear. Too many people think that just because they spent the extra money for the safety features, that they can ignore safe driving practices and overcome basic physics.
"I Don't Like SUV's - Why Do You - VIII" this topic has been beat to death there and the now defunct "SUV Poseurs".
You're preaching to the choir.
And besides, soccer moms don't listen to advice because they are too busy talking on their cell phones.
Safe driving,
TC
Dude,
I guess you never watched the Formula 1 events.
I suggest you check the Speedvision channel on your local cable once in a while.