* On the 4WD models, the transaxle, front and center differentials, and the transfer unit are all integrated into one unit. This is a full-time 4WD system so power is transferred to all 4 wheels all of the time for optimum stability and traction. In addition, the center differential is a viscous coupling unit that provides a limited slip effect when distributing power between the front and rear wheels. For additional traction, a helical-type, torque sensing limited-slip rear differential is optional on 4 WD models in some areas.
Also, on 4WD models, the propeller shaft is a 4-joint, 3-shaft type. A cross groove-type constant-velocity joint (CVJ) is used for the number three joint to help reduce noise and vibration. A center bearing is also provided to further reduce noise and vibration.
I WAS WONDERING WHAT THE BEST PRICE I CAN GET ON A TOYOTA HIGHLANDER IN THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AREA. AM LOCKING FOR A 2001 TOYOTA HIGHLANDER V6,AC,MOON ROOF,ROOF RACK,CENTER COUNSEL,TONE COVER,POWER DRIVERS SEAT. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT DEALERS IN THE SO AL AREA WOULD BE THE BEST TO DEAL WITH IN GETTING A GREAT PRICE. THIS WOULD PROBABLY SAVE ME TIME FROM GOING TO DEALER TO DEALER, IF ANYONE HAS BOUGHT A L LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU PAID FOR IT AND WHAT FEATURES IT CAME WITH FEEL FREE TO MAIL ME AT FRANKAART@AOL.COM
I just test drove a hl today. Has everything I want except 500 miles on it already!!! My husband feels the break in period is now ruined, because we don't know who drove it & how fast !! They are willing to come down 1,600 of list for this. Is it worth it? Or should I wait for a new one 4 months?
Belanger: Buy it. Toyotas are generally reliable vehicles.I've bought demo vehicles with 10,000 miles on it nad had no problems. My friend bought a camry with 8500 miles and he has no problems and we are in NYC (pothole capital of the U.S.)
I live in Orange County, CA. Today, I saw an ad for 2001 Highlander with V6/4x4 for $27,997 at Toyota of Buena Park. I also saw an ad in Alhambra Toyota for $1500 off MSRP on all Highlanders.
I'm not in the market for Highlander, but I thought I pass this along to those who live in OC.
I just bought a Chevy Impala LS. So far, I think the Impala is a better car then a Camry. Time will tell.
I can never say with confidence what vehicle is going to be safer for an individual. We're all quite different in our driving preferences and skills. What constitutes "safety" can be manifested in different ways beyond just crash tests, airbags, and safety cages. E.g. a navigation system may be something that saves one's life (I recall a time when we got lost coming out of JFK in New York and ended up somewhere around Bedford Stuyvesant when it was a REALLY bad neighborhood). Having a hands-free cell phone, steering-wheel-mounted audio controls might an accident caused by distraction.
That said, I had made up my mind a while ago that I would not buy another vehicle that didn't have, or was expected to get the highest category grade in both the NHTSA and IIHS crash tests (some might say I'm compromising with the "expected" part and they may have a point -- but IIHS/NHTSA doesn't crash test fast enough!). The Highlander (and MDX, ML320, RX300) would fit that personal requirement, but not the Pathfinder/QX4/GM SUV's.
Thanks for the correction. I got confused by the GM cousins switching; what was the upcoming Olds version of the Aztek/Rendevous going to be called? (Besides toast, since Olds is toast.)
Yikes! I see that body-on-frame sure didn't help the crash test results of those GM SUV's. At least the chest and foot were reasonably well-protected, even though the expected head injuries were comparatively massive (sarcasm intended).
to #910 thank you ! i do feel better now, just have to convince my husband! we never spent this much money before on a vehicle! it means a lot to him to put on the first 500 miles instead of someone else!! for that kind of $$
I have not driven a Highlander yet, but I know that the MDX has significant road/wind noise for a near $40k vehicle. Honda/Acura vehicles tend to have worse NVH performace compared to Toyota/Lexus. However, you should test this theory for yourself.
Would someone be willing to mail or post a dimension for me? I need to know the length of the back when the rear seats are up. I camp a lot and often like to just crash out in the back. The 4 Runner is only 5' and that is not enough room for me. There are no local Highlanders to be found here for a few more weeks. I need a straight and a diagonal measurement if you could. Thank You.
On the Pathfinder townhalls, there is quite a bit of traffic regarding buying a PF in Canada and saving $2K - $3K because of the current exchange rate. I located and called a Toyota/Acura dealer in St. Catherines and each sales rep told me that Toyota and Acura restrict sales to Canadian residents only.
With the seatback folded down, there is 69" to the top of the headrest and another 6 or 7 inches to the back of the front row seat. On the diagonal, there is 7 feet. You said, "with the rear seats up". I'm assuming you meant with them down. Wally
We've had our Highlander for 9 days, 600 miles and through three days of snow. Overall, I'm very impressed with the Highlander and it's the first vehicle in 28 years that my wife is really excited about. It's really a solid road vehicle and bank vault tight. There have been a couple of questions on how it does in snow. Our experience has been "great." We returned from our lake place after a couple of days of cross country skiing yesterday afternoon. Our parking area is a bit below the level of the gravel road leading to our place and there was about two inches of snow left in the parking area since the last time it was plowed. It snowed 6"+ of wet, heavy snow Friday night and we left on Saturday afternoon. The Highlander "walked" up and out of the below grade area with absolutely no hint of wheelspin. The 45 mile trip home, on slush covered, two lane roads was uneventful. I took it easy enough that the VSC never kicked in. This morning we woke up to another 6 inches of snow and, again, no sweat. The only issue is that this is our first AWD vehicle and it goes through snow so easy that it's easy to forget that the AWD drive does nothing to make it stop faster. I'd definitely recommend the HL and we're very glad we passed on the MDX and the other alternatives out there.
I would like more definative information about towing with the Highlander. I am looking to tow a small pop-up camper (1800lbs) about a dozen times this summer. It will be on flat land for the most part (Michigan). We are getting out of an Expedition and need something smaller, but not too small. I am 6'2" and hate cramped quarters. I will be going to look a Highlander next week but need to travel a couple of hours to do that. I would like to save myself a trip if I would be doing a great dis-service to the vehicle by towing with it. I am not familiar with unibody towing. Any links or statements such as, "don't do it", would be fine. The 4-Runner is just too small for me. We really want a vehicle that will last us more than the standard US made 50,000 mile and your done.
I must admit that I may have discovered an error on something I posted some time ago. I was reporting on what I had read in our training material and what I saw in a training video so it is an honest error. The error is, after driving the HL in snow, I don't think it has traction control.
Allow me to explain. The HL has a limited slip center differential. This means that power is split 50-50 unless one end of the vehicle is slipping. If that happens, power is biased toward the end of the vehicle with more traction. It had been my understanding that if you got the VSC, you also got traction control (TRACS). This didn't make sense to me because TRACS applies brakes to slipping wheels which would fool the center differential into keeping power to the end with the least traction.
Now, on to an experiment I did on Thursday. We had about 3 inches of snow which is enough to shut down the world in suburban Washington DC. I took two HLs to the back of the parking lot. One had VSC, the other didn't. From a standing start, I mashed the gas pedal to the floor. Both took off like a rocket. The one without VSC had some side to side fish tailing. The one with VSC tracked very straight.
The part that surprised me was that there was no straight line braking nor reduction in RPMs from the one with VSC. This is what one would expect to feel under these circumstances if it had traction control. I didn't feel it at all and no warning lights flashed on the dash.
This actually makes sense on this kind of 4WD system. It just goes against what I had been told from two different sources. It seems that the VSC on a 4WD (I know the 4x2 must have TRACS), is only to handle later skids. If anybody has more experience with this, I'd love to hear about it.
Cliffy, your conclusion is almost 100% correct. Any auto-wd or all-wd vehicle can help you get/keep "un-stuck", but VSC helps you keep in directional control (front or rear-end misdirection). And that my friends is what is going to save your life.
But because VSC has all the necessary intelligence/components to fully modulate any wheel, TRACS is actually a subset of VSC. So if you get VSC, you have TRACS. And VSC will help in ALL road conditions, you don't need snow to justify it.
LexusSafety.com has explanations.
In my opinion, anybody who doesn't get VSC (if available) is simply saving some dollars at possible expense of their life. But hey, everybody has different priorities.
I do not have any towing information, but I am completely confident the HL (unibody or not) would easily handly your load without any question. With the towing package, the load is rated at 3500 pounds .... that is a tremendous factor or safety over your stated requirement. What I do know something about is the cabin size. I am 6'-3" and turning in a leased Explorer. You will find the HL MUCH roomier than the Explorer. The leg room is very generous (I do not place the seat back as far as it will go). In addition, the dash is recessed yielding even more room. Most surprising, is the room in the rear seat. I am very impressed with the vehicle. Not just "satisfied," no more, impressed with the fit, finish, power and ride. Happy motoring.
"The part that surprised me was that there was no straight line braking nor reduction in RPMs from the one with VSC. This is what one would expect to feel under these circumstances if it had traction control. I didn't feel it at all and no warning lights flashed on the dash."
Steve, the traction control works by monitoring the speed that each individual wheel is spinning. If one wheel is spinning faster than another by x mph, the traction control then thinks that it is spinning and brakes it. It is conceivable that since you started off on a service with equal mu (read: friction co-efficient), all wheels spun at about the same rate, and hence A-TRAC did not see the need to cut in.
Do you think you could find a spot with unequal amounts of traction on each side of the vehicle (split-mu surface?) Perhaps half on snow, and half on gravel (preferably on an unhill slope)? Or simply shovel away about 2-3 car lengths of snow under the left or ride side wheels. I bet the traction control will cut in if you try the same thing.
"...because VSC has all the necessary intelligence/components to fully modulate any wheel, TRACS is actually a subset of VSC. So if you get VSC, you have TRACS."
Tony: Yes! That's precisely right! I'm glad you got it since so many people (including some auto journalists) have trouble with this concept. :-)
Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
I guess all those years of engineering school and working on systems concepts in F-14s and Tomahawk Cruise missles gives me a slight edge
P.S. I'm a lover, not a fighter, but the guidance systems in a Cruise missle are simply unreal. Topographic and other maps are downloaded into it's on board computers before it is launched. The thing can be launched over a 100 miles away from it's target and it will literally "hug" the terrain while navigating towards its end destination, twisting and turning as necessary to avoid obstructions.
The reason I bring it up is that pieces of the technologies that go into these missles can be used to eventually design "auto-drive" and safer cars.
I beg to differ here. I tried the exact same experiment with a 4Runner which has an open differential in the center, plus VSC/TRACS. When I did the same thing under the same circumstances, I didn't get the rev limiter but did get the braking action of TRACS and the TRACS light came on. I tried it again in 2WD and the same thing happened plus the rev limiter came on. There was no difference in left to right traction.
I've mentioned before that I don't understand how TRACS can work with a center LSD. This experiment seems to confirm they don't.
One other point here, TRACS and VSC are not the same thing. TRACS uses the ABS sensors to detect when one wheel is slipping more than the others. VSC detects lateral skid by other sensors including steering wheel position sensors. These systems work well together in the Sequoia, Runner and Land Cruiser but it escapes me how it can work with a center differential that is a limited slip variety.
I found the Toyota Highlander to be quite noisey on a test drive at highway speeds (above 65 mph), seemingly from road noise rather than engine or wind noise. Does anyone have any comment, opinion, or comparisons in this regard?
"One other point here, TRACS and VSC are not the same thing. TRACS uses the ABS sensors to detect when one wheel is slipping more than the others. VSC detects lateral skid by other sensors including steering wheel position sensors. "
You have all the facts straight, yet you don't seem to see the forest through the trees.
No one claims they are the same. But the sensors and equipment used by TRACS is a subset of the equpiment used by VSC. You are exactly right with your breakdown of the stuff. TRACS uses wheel sensors (to detect speed differentials between wheels) and 4-channel ABS to individual pulse-brake (downward modulate) a wheel to correct for "sensed" loss of traction. VSC (as you pointed out) uses yaw (angle direction) sensors, plus steering wheel sensors, and engine throttle control. In order to correct a cars trajectory, it needs to make a decision based on individual wheel speed (the TRACS wheel sensors), yaw, and the steering wheel position. It will then adjust overall engine speed (upward or downward) and individually brake wheels (the 4-channel ABS) as necessary to correct the cars angle, not necessarily its traction this time. A human being can't possibly individually brake any of 4 wheels, hence the VSC's superiority.
Maybe this will better explain the "building blocks" of VSC/ESP (and why TRACS is part of VSC) better than I can:
I finally bought one today! I love it ! It is a red limited moon roof loaded ! I got $2,000 off list. I thought it was a good deal. Has everything I want on it. I should of waited till next year for a better price, but I can't wait . It's much better than a four runner, unless you go on rocks all the time. It's roomy, quick, quiet, awesome! I am so excited to get it tomorrow!
I was just at my Toyota Dealership today looking at Highlanders, its a great day to look since there are no sales people on Sunday. I notice all new Highlanders had a Consumer Serves fee of 385 dollars. It also says a written explanation is available upon request, so what is it and is it a dealer profit item???
Diane, I was looking at a Highlander this weekend in Colorado and overall very impressed. Question I have is the salesman told me they were making 97% of the Highlanders as V6, AWD, Limited Package with Leather and most of the other options. I was wondering what you understand Toyota is building at the factory? A limited package V6/AWD is what I would like, but without the leather
The road noise you heard at highway speeds may have been due to overinflated tires. There have been several posts regarding overinflated tires and bumpiness/noise. As explained by Cliffy, I believe, tires are overinflated by the factory to reduce flat-spotting during shipment and are supposed to be deflated to recommended pressure upon delivery to the dealer. There has been a few cases mentioned on this board of overinflated tires on test drives.
Another possible cause would be the road surface itself. Did you test drive the HL on an unfamiliar road that may have had a "noisy" surface?
I am going crazy. I am upside down on my leased BMW 3 series. I owe $31M and it's probably worth $29-30M I adopted a dog that I want to carry along with me. Looked at the Tacoma, but the "deep well" in the xtra cab and the skimpy seats would cause the dog to lose balance. I started looking at SUV's because I like new cars and now have an excuse to get another style. I have champagne taste and started with the Highlander. Should I be looking for a classy used SUV? I don't really want 4WD. I do want a V6. Seems that the Highlander is the best thing going. Is there a cheaper way to go?
By "classy used SUV", you may be referring to the Lexus RX-300. If you get one certified from a Lexus dealer expect to pay at least $30-33K for a 1999 model. If you buy privately, you may be able to find a '99 for $28-29K. So, frankly not much cheaper than an HL for arguably a 3 year old car ('99s came out in May 1998).
As far as less expensive car-based SUV's (which is presumably what you're looking for), there are lots of options including the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute (sister cars), Toyota RAV4, Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe. Each of these cars can be had for under $25K. You might also consider the Nissan Xterra or Izusu Rodeo if interested in some offroad capability. Truck based SUVs tend to suffer from poor gas mileage and poorer safety features/ratings. Sounds like you may need to do some more research before hitting the showrooms. There are lots of good guides to SUVs on the newstands. Consumer Reports has one of the better ones. Good luck.
I understand completely how VSC and TRACS work together. You missed what my question and observations were about. There are two pieces of evidence that cause me to doubt that the 4WD has TRACS, at least in the traditional sense. By using selective braking on a slipping wheel, you are "telling" the center differential that this wheel has traction. This is great on an open center differential but on an LSD, you have just fooled it into keeping more of the available power to the slipping wheels. This has never made sense to me on the HL and my experience over the weekend tells me Toyota considered this when adapting the VSC system to it.
The other part of TRACS is the rev limiter. From a standing start, this is quite helpful on a 2 wheel drive vehicle. Combined with the braking action, this keeps you from spinning your wheels. On sand and snow on an AWD vehicle, this isn't really a desirable thing though. The rev limiter is an integral part of all other Toyota TRACS systems but was notably absent on the HL I drove.
Now, it is possible that Toyota deleted the rev limiter from the VSC/TRACS on the AWD models. That still doesn't answer the question of how TRACS can function in a vehicle with a center LSD. This is the central question I am asking.
Now, if I am correct that the AWD model with VSC does not have a traditional TRACS system associated with it, the whole thing makes much more sense. The center LSD transfers power front to rear as designed without interference from selective braking on slipping wheels. Power is not cut to the engine under heavy acceleration. The yaw control and position sensors selectively apply brakes and throttle to prevent lateral skids and all is well. Does this make sense? If not, how can the center differential keep power to the correct end of the vehicle when slipping wheels have brakes applied?
I see what you are saying now, my apologies for being a little dense on this. I guess the part I'm confused on is this: Is the drive shaft/axels on the HL similar to the ones on the RX300? I guess I was assuming it was. As you might know, they've eliminated the LSD on the '01 RXs. Sounds like this falls in line with your theory.
It'd be helpful I think if you could get access to a Toyota factory tech to get a definitive answer to whether the HL and RX share the same AWD/VSC/TRACS set up. From your observations, it sounds like there are some differences.
I'll see what I can dig up and report back. I've always had a bit of difficulty finding a technician at Toyota that can answer questions like this. I normally run into the same incorrect answers consumers do when they call the customer service number.
Drove a Pathfinder and Highlander back to back to compare. Both were very nice. I found the Highlander to much more car-like in overall ride quality and handling. My wife and I both preferred the Highlander because of interior room and the handling. The Pathfinder was just more "truck-like". We own a Sienna and found the HL to handle even better the van...I sure the stiffer suspension helps with that perception.
I just pulled the following quote off the Lexus web site and it makes me think they didn't change the 4WD system and it would confirm my thoughts on the VSC/TRACS on the HL. This is from the standard equipment page.
-Front-wheel drive (FWD) with Traction Control (TRAC) or full-time four-wheel drive (4WD) with viscous coupling center differential -Vehicle Skid Control (VSC)
This would seem to indicate that while VSC comes on both the front and 4 wheel drive, the 4WD does not have TRACS. It also says the center differential is a viscous coupling which is by definition a limited slip. This is making more sense now.
Honda SUV musings by Cliffy1: "A bit late to the party don't you think? Coming in the summer of 2002? Gee, I can't wait. I wonder what the invoice will be. "
If it's anything along the lines of what happened with the Odyssey, it will come late but then be sold out months ahead of time while Toyotas will be selling well below MSRP.
Cliffy: I'm sure you "can't" wait to see the invoice on the new Honda SUV. It in effect will be a scaled down Acura MDX. Since a loaded HL costs as much as a base MDX the Honda SUV will certainly MSRP for less than the HL. Yep, I know you can't wait. Better sell as many overpriced HLs as possible, ASAP!!
We finally bought 4x4 V6 on limited w/ leather. We might be getting it in a week. We can't wait, since I've been reading so many good feedbacks on it. I got it for about $30,000 which is $2,000 below MSRP.I just want to know if this is an okay price. We had to get other packages we didn't really want since it apparently came with the available vehicle.
When I try to back an SUV with privacy glass out of my driveway at night, I find that visibility is poor. The backup lights aren't of much use with privacy glass, especially on poorly lit streets. With the 4-Runner, it is possible to roll down the back window to compensate, but that is not possible with the Highlander, or with most other SUVs. When I ask dealers why privacy glass is included in the Limited and in most other upscale option packages with most SUVs, I am usually told that it has to do with heat from sunlight through the windows during the day. But most SUVs these days have air conditioning, and station wagons that also have similar windows usually do not have privacy glass. Can someone explain to me why so many SUV buyers seem to want privacy glass, despite the obscured vision when backing up after dark?
We currently drive a '99 Eddie Bauer Expedition (Ford's version of Limited w/ privacy glass). We have never experienced the problem you describe. Perhaps the Toyota reverse lights are not as powerful as Ford's. Or perhaps you suffer from poor night vision. So many people see poorer at night relative to daylight that the medical term for it is Night Blindness.
I agree with Doug's post regarding night vision. It happens.
Also, the purpose of privacy glass is just what it means, it makes it a little harder (though not impossible) for a passing pedestrian to see the contents of your vehicle. The glass is basically a "weak" one way mirror, seeing out should not be a problem, though slightly tinted. And I mean slightly.
I have spoken to Dianne regarding the unavailability of VSC in Southern California on the FWD HL. I would like to hear some of the techies opinions regarding VSC and its usefulness in an area with good weather. I am being stupid for wanting a FWD model with VSC?
My experience with privacy glass was with a Jeep Grand Cherokee with its optional deep tinted glass. I rented it for a day. My street has only one street light, so is very dimly lit. Backing out of my driveway with the Jeep was very different from backing out of my driveway with my Camry that does not have privacy glass and creates no problem of that sort. I have never driven a Highlander after dark, so I don't know whether its tinted windows would create that problem for me or not,
"I am being stupid for wanting a FWD model with VSC? "
No! A skid condition can happen on any surface during a drastic emergency manuever. There have been plenty of links posted to other sites that have both graphic and video examples of why VSC and other similar systems work.
In the near future VSC will be as common as ABS is today. 10 years ago you could only find ABS on certain vehicles.
Comments
http://216.219.239.199/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000008
I also tried to explain the 4WD a little better!
* On the 4WD models, the transaxle, front and center differentials, and the transfer unit are all integrated into one unit. This is a full-time 4WD system so power is transferred to all 4 wheels all of the time for optimum stability and traction. In addition, the center differential is a viscous coupling unit that provides a limited slip effect when distributing power between the front and rear wheels. For additional traction, a helical-type, torque sensing limited-slip rear differential is optional on 4 WD models in some areas.
Also, on 4WD models, the propeller shaft is a 4-joint, 3-shaft type. A cross groove-type constant-velocity joint (CVJ) is used for the number three joint to help reduce noise and vibration. A center bearing is also provided to further reduce noise and vibration.
Dianne
I'm not in the market for Highlander, but I thought I pass this along to those who live in OC.
I just bought a Chevy Impala LS. So far, I think the Impala is a better car then a Camry. Time will tell.
That said, I had made up my mind a while ago that I would not buy another vehicle that didn't have, or was expected to get the highest category grade in both the NHTSA and IIHS crash tests (some might say I'm compromising with the "expected" part and they may have a point -- but IIHS/NHTSA doesn't crash test fast enough!). The Highlander (and MDX, ML320, RX300) would fit that personal requirement, but not the Pathfinder/QX4/GM SUV's.
Yikes! I see that body-on-frame sure didn't help the crash test results of those GM SUV's. At least the chest and foot were reasonably well-protected, even though the expected head injuries were comparatively massive (sarcasm intended).
I have not driven a Highlander yet, but I know that the MDX has significant road/wind noise for a near $40k vehicle. Honda/Acura vehicles tend to have worse NVH performace compared to Toyota/Lexus. However, you should test this theory for yourself.
Anyone else try this approach?
Wally
We really want a vehicle that will last us more than the standard US made 50,000 mile and your done.
Thanks
Allow me to explain. The HL has a limited slip center differential. This means that power is split 50-50 unless one end of the vehicle is slipping. If that happens, power is biased toward the end of the vehicle with more traction. It had been my understanding that if you got the VSC, you also got traction control (TRACS). This didn't make sense to me because TRACS applies brakes to slipping wheels which would fool the center differential into keeping power to the end with the least traction.
Now, on to an experiment I did on Thursday. We had about 3 inches of snow which is enough to shut down the world in suburban Washington DC. I took two HLs to the back of the parking lot. One had VSC, the other didn't. From a standing start, I mashed the gas pedal to the floor. Both took off like a rocket. The one without VSC had some side to side fish tailing. The one with VSC tracked very straight.
The part that surprised me was that there was no straight line braking nor reduction in RPMs from the one with VSC. This is what one would expect to feel under these circumstances if it had traction control. I didn't feel it at all and no warning lights flashed on the dash.
This actually makes sense on this kind of 4WD system. It just goes against what I had been told from two different sources. It seems that the VSC on a 4WD (I know the 4x2 must have TRACS), is only to handle later skids. If anybody has more experience with this, I'd love to hear about it.
But because VSC has all the necessary intelligence/components to fully modulate any wheel, TRACS is actually a subset of VSC. So if you get VSC, you have TRACS. And VSC will help in ALL road conditions, you don't need snow to justify it.
LexusSafety.com has explanations.
In my opinion, anybody who doesn't get VSC (if available) is simply saving some dollars at possible expense of their life. But hey, everybody has different priorities.
TC
What I do know something about is the cabin size. I am 6'-3" and turning in a leased Explorer.
You will find the HL MUCH roomier than the Explorer. The leg room is very generous (I do not place the seat back as far as it will go). In addition, the dash is recessed yielding even more room. Most surprising, is the room in the rear seat. I am very impressed with the vehicle. Not just "satisfied," no more, impressed with the fit, finish, power and ride.
Happy motoring.
Steve, the traction control works by monitoring the speed that each individual wheel is spinning. If one wheel is spinning faster than another by x mph, the traction control then thinks that it is spinning and brakes it. It is conceivable that since you started off on a service with equal mu (read: friction co-efficient), all wheels spun at about the same rate, and hence A-TRAC did not see the need to cut in.
Do you think you could find a spot with unequal amounts of traction on each side of the vehicle (split-mu surface?) Perhaps half on snow, and half on gravel (preferably on an unhill slope)? Or simply shovel away about 2-3 car lengths of snow under the left or ride side wheels. I bet the traction control will cut in if you try the same thing.
"...because VSC has all the necessary intelligence/components to fully modulate any wheel, TRACS is actually a subset of VSC. So if you get VSC, you have TRACS."
Tony: Yes! That's precisely right! I'm glad you got it since so many people (including some auto journalists) have trouble with this concept. :-)
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
P.S. I'm a lover, not a fighter, but the guidance systems in a Cruise missle are simply unreal. Topographic and other maps are downloaded into it's on board computers before it is launched. The thing can be launched over a 100 miles away from it's target and it will literally "hug" the terrain while navigating towards its end destination, twisting and turning as necessary to avoid obstructions.
The reason I bring it up is that pieces of the technologies that go into these missles can be used to eventually design "auto-drive" and safer cars.
I've mentioned before that I don't understand how TRACS can work with a center LSD. This experiment seems to confirm they don't.
One other point here, TRACS and VSC are not the same thing. TRACS uses the ABS sensors to detect when one wheel is slipping more than the others. VSC detects lateral skid by other sensors including steering wheel position sensors. These systems work well together in the Sequoia, Runner and Land Cruiser but it escapes me how it can work with a center differential that is a limited slip variety.
You have all the facts straight, yet you don't seem to see the forest through the trees.
No one claims they are the same. But the sensors and equipment used by TRACS is a subset of the equpiment used by VSC. You are exactly right with your breakdown of the stuff. TRACS uses wheel sensors (to detect speed differentials between wheels) and 4-channel ABS to individual pulse-brake (downward modulate) a wheel to correct for "sensed" loss of traction. VSC (as you pointed out) uses yaw (angle direction) sensors, plus steering wheel sensors, and engine throttle control. In order to correct a cars trajectory, it needs to make a decision based on individual wheel speed (the TRACS wheel sensors), yaw, and the steering wheel position. It will then adjust overall engine speed (upward or downward) and individually brake wheels (the 4-channel ABS) as necessary to correct the cars angle, not necessarily its traction this time. A human being can't possibly individually brake any of 4 wheels, hence the VSC's superiority.
Maybe this will better explain the "building blocks" of VSC/ESP (and why TRACS is part of VSC) better than I can:
http://www.conti-online.com/en
/contiteves/themes/products
/electronic_brake_systems/abs_en.html
TC
Thanks in Advance
Michael
I was looking at a Highlander this weekend in Colorado and overall very impressed. Question I have is the salesman told me they were making 97% of the Highlanders as V6, AWD, Limited Package with Leather and most of the other options. I was wondering what you understand Toyota is building at the factory? A limited package V6/AWD is what I would like, but without the leather
Another possible cause would be the road surface itself. Did you test drive the HL on an unfamiliar road that may have had a "noisy" surface?
As far as less expensive car-based SUV's (which is presumably what you're looking for), there are lots of options including the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute (sister cars), Toyota RAV4, Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe. Each of these cars can be had for under $25K. You might also consider the Nissan Xterra or Izusu Rodeo if interested in some offroad capability. Truck based SUVs tend to suffer from poor gas mileage and poorer safety features/ratings. Sounds like you may need to do some more research before hitting the showrooms. There are lots of good guides to SUVs on the newstands. Consumer Reports has one of the better ones. Good luck.
The other part of TRACS is the rev limiter. From a standing start, this is quite helpful on a 2 wheel drive vehicle. Combined with the braking action, this keeps you from spinning your wheels. On sand and snow on an AWD vehicle, this isn't really a desirable thing though. The rev limiter is an integral part of all other Toyota TRACS systems but was notably absent on the HL I drove.
Now, it is possible that Toyota deleted the rev limiter from the VSC/TRACS on the AWD models. That still doesn't answer the question of how TRACS can function in a vehicle with a center LSD. This is the central question I am asking.
Now, if I am correct that the AWD model with VSC does not have a traditional TRACS system associated with it, the whole thing makes much more sense. The center LSD transfers power front to rear as designed without interference from selective braking on slipping wheels. Power is not cut to the engine under heavy acceleration. The yaw control and position sensors selectively apply brakes and throttle to prevent lateral skids and all is well. Does this make sense? If not, how can the center differential keep power to the correct end of the vehicle when slipping wheels have brakes applied?
It'd be helpful I think if you could get access to a Toyota factory tech to get a definitive answer to whether the HL and RX share the same AWD/VSC/TRACS set up. From your observations, it sounds like there are some differences.
TC
-Front-wheel drive (FWD) with Traction Control (TRAC) or full-time four-wheel drive (4WD) with viscous coupling center differential
-Vehicle Skid Control (VSC)
This would seem to indicate that while VSC comes on both the front and 4 wheel drive, the 4WD does not have TRACS. It also says the center differential is a viscous coupling which is by definition a limited slip. This is making more sense now.
If it's anything along the lines of what happened with the Odyssey, it will come late but then be sold out months ahead of time while Toyotas will be selling well below MSRP.
- or the MDX vs the Lexus, for that matter....
Also, the purpose of privacy glass is just what it means, it makes it a little harder (though not impossible) for a passing pedestrian to see the contents of your vehicle. The glass is basically a "weak" one way mirror, seeing out should not be a problem, though slightly tinted. And I mean slightly.
"I am being stupid for wanting a FWD model with VSC? "
No! A skid condition can happen on any surface during a drastic emergency manuever. There have been plenty of links posted to other sites that have both graphic and video examples of why VSC and other similar systems work.
In the near future VSC will be as common as ABS is today. 10 years ago you could only find ABS on certain vehicles.
Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/brauerchat022701.html
Drew
Host
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