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The only way to make a response stick even close to the top is to wait until it fades, but that means that almost no-one is reading it and again the message gets lost.
In my e-mails to him I pointed out that if a consumer found out that a shop used the wrong oil, and they complained to him, he would no doubt tell that consumer to go back and have the shop put the right oil in it, FOR FREE. He might even tell them to also try and get their money back. If he really cares about the consumer, then that is a standard that he should live up to as well. I have offered to assist him with the technical information, plus references but since he wrote about something that he failed to correctly inform the readers about, it should be on him to fix it.
JMHO.
In order to do what I do, day in and day out successfully, we don't have the latitude that most other careers allow. If we fail even the tiniest amount, well, you see the stories. When someone else falls short of that same goal such as this article did, it simply isn't "fair" for them to still be lauded for their effort, while we appear to be dishonest to anyone that read their POV.
Mr Voelker wrote " However, understand that it's not my job to "see the world from a technician's point of view." It's to see the world from a customer's point of view. And I've had buyers express confusion and irritation to me that instead of simply buying oil at a chain store and changing it themselves, there are now more onerous requirements. The notion that their warranty might be voided--whether fairly or not--by an oil change done at a JiffyLube or the like angers them."
He's had consumers express confusion to him, and he didn't know what the correct answer was for them. Not only that, he didn't know the "whys" of the correct answer for people who were going to him for the answers. No one would tolerate that from me in the performance of my duties. He would have no remorse about taking my efforts to task should I fail to be "perfect". Is it really unfair to expect the same from him?
In my book, fair is always a two way street.
I figured it might save me a few hours of typing.
Here is a great disscussion of just what these tools can do as compared to what someone really needs when attempting to diagnose/repair cars today.
http://www.twoguysgarage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12742
In the real world of trying to keep pace with today's technology Mazda and Ford in just the last week have parted ways when it comes to scan tool software support. One subscription covered both of them. As of the version 77A update a complete seperate subscription is now required.
Based on the projected return on the investment required, Mazda is no longer going to be supported at my shop at the full dealership level. Let the reporter add that to the story he/she wants to write.
I'll contact them, but have significant reservations as to why I should. 99% of these stories are written from the perspective that the stereotype will sell, and the heck with real facts. They probably have their anecdotal story(s) already laid out and now just want some filler opinions to make it more marketable. In many ways I feel that trying to contribute to their story will put me a great risk for them to simply spin anything that I would share and only serve to make their story more sensational, which could help them make more money with it ultimately at the consumers, and my expense.
It's easy to tell people what they want to hear, far easier than it is to tell them the truth.
How would you like some input from a real Technician/Shop Owner in regards to just what we really face today when it comes to diagnosing and repairing some of these high tech robotics systems on today's cars? Robotics, is that a word that you the writer had in your mind when you set out to start wrting this story? Are you aware of the fact that most code pullers access the Global OBDII side of the fuel injection system and that's often less than 10% of what the car is really capable of doing? Most shops today still rely on aftermarket scan tools such as those found in the Snap-On tool line, and other companies like OTC, Hannatech, Auto Enginuity and many others. They do this simply because they in their own perspectives cannot justify the expense for the full O.E. tool for a given manufacturer. The full aftermarket tools often support any one vehicle somewhere between 50-80% capability of what the tool that a dealership would use. Top independents today go as far as to purchase the O.E. tool for the manufacturers that they choose to support.
Do you, the writer have any idea what kind of a committment it takes to do that for a shops customers? I can show you one tool that hasn't even generated enough work to even pay for itself let alone the time invested to use it. But without it a number of customers would have had no choice except to have their cars towed to the dealership to be repaired. The toy tools can pull codes and some will give generic data and from that there are two paths. One is to guess that the code means a specific part has failed and try to fix the car by simply replacing the part. The other is to understand that the code is simply the starting point from which proper diagnostic routines should be followed. That part takes training, experience, the right tools, and a good supply of self discipline to perform all of the steps that are required to diagnose a vehicle problem correctly. For top technicians, that also means problems in every system on the car which today can be anywhere from five computers, to over one hundred and is why the technician often needs the factory (O.E) scan tool, or said another way the same one the dealership technician uses.
You can contact me for more information.
You can also find more information in this thread here in Edmunds
steve_, "Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?" #397, 8 Jan 2012 6:42 am
John Gillespie.
ASE CMAT L1 A9 35yrs exp.
Instructor/Technical writer Carquest Technical Institute
Shop Owner/Technician
Electronincs / Diagnostics Specialist
I could hope that maybe my input would help the article be more well rounded and accurate. That would be a refreshing change from what the consumers typically get to see.
BTW, I'll remind you in case you forgot that the only reason I spent any time providing input here at all is because some members of Edmund's carelessly participated in an activity that failed to report the whole story while they deliberatly sensationalized just the facet that they wanted to tell. Based on past history, why should I expect this "story" to be any different?
Doc, I hate to break this to you, and I am NOT gloating...do you remember when we were talking about the Audi CVT with the slipping belt and I said "what the heck, the car is probably near-totaled with a bad transmission anyway, so I'm going to try some high friction Ford Type F fluid in it"
And you know what, it worked....not *right* away...took about 50 miles, but it's been (according to my friend who is driving it) almost 1000 miles trouble free.
Sometimes you DO get lucky!
RE: "biased" articles --well it will never get better unless there's input to give them the best information. One cannot (logically I mean) criticize an article for lacking the right info while at the same time declining to provide it. :P
Is it OK to be critical of such articles when the information was (is) available, but the writer for whatever reason simply failed to do enough research before they assumed that they knew everything?
I e-mailed them and what you read above was a copy of my e-mail. We shall see what they do with the information that can be provided. Being hesitant to provide input to them can be attributed to a once bitten, twice shy perception.
I am very smug though that I thought it up. :shades:
I also fixed my sunroof leak by blowing the drain out with a soda straw. I'm on a roll today!
Here in 2012, that is a worthless guarantee. If you attempted to fix it, one way or another you'll be expected to stand behind it. So I'll ask AGAIN, what would you do when it doesn't work and you are faced with someone who is now threatening to sue you, is posting bad comments about your business on consumer sites all over the web and trying just about every other tactic they can think of to force you to be responsible for their problem?
When they get you into small claims court, and the judge asks if you put in the correct fluid what do you think he will say when it's proven that you clearly put in something that doesn't meet the vehicle specs?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mutual trust is a basic building block for a prosperous business IMO.
But since you asked, I don't see how the customer could sue, since they are not legally an aggrieved party---they came in with a car with a useless, barely drivable car, and if my type F solution fails, they are no worse off than before---facing the same $6500 rebuild. Nothing was made 'worse'.
If you are diagnosed to die in two weeks and I give you a magic amulet to try out and you die in 2 weeks, am I guilty of murder?
I don't see how the customer could sue
Your trying to apply common sense to small claims court. As the business man, repair mechanic you were in a position of greater knowledge. As the consumer I only have to say that you assured me this would fix my car, and now it's trashed. Heck you even showed me on that website how you did this before and showed up that mechanic.
You have to agree, that's a lot of nonsense hanging over everything that we do but that is the way that it is today. We (I) are (am) good at fixing cars, and not good at legal #$%^. Under the above scenario, its cheaper to just fix it and walk away that it is to fight it and be forced to fix it too.
So anyone suing me for playing around with an already totally useless transmission would have to show how they were aggrieved---what loss did they suffer? What are they suing me FOR?
Exactly---nothing. Which is what they'll get.
When I started answering some questions here Steve pointed out many times that he felt what's the harm in a consumer getting something for "free". Looks like if some consumer was going to get something for free and you suddenly were the one who was going to get stuck paying for it that the thought has left you none too happy. As far as only doing this for a "friend" you'd learn in business when someone is facing a $XXXX repair bill, friendship will go right out the window if they think it will save them some $.
We have a little saying, "No good deed goes unpunished". You just found out how rough of a lesson that could be to learn, except in reality you wouldn't be the shop owner, you would likely be the service writer or a helper and certaintly not a technician. As the owner of the business, I would be the person expected to pay for your mistakes to make it right by the customer. We are often reminded that life isn't always fair, your mistake here would leave me and my wife with no paycheck for a few months, but the customer would be taken care of. Meanwhile the customer would go around town saying those people at "that shop" ruined my transmission and with no more details than that and add yet another layer to the nightmare.
Right now your thinking, but you should have insurance for that kind of a loss. The insurance will deny a claim that is caused by negligence or willfull misconduct on the part of an employee. The insurance won't pay for an employee who makes a mistake that proper training should have prevented. That's the real world and not the fantasy one that you get to play an expert in here. This loss would come directly from the shop owners pockets. Today that could be enough to put some shops out of business.
You should be thank-ful for me even bothering to try and explain this to you. You got to try and learn this "for free" instead of having to learn it by a judges decision. You claim to be an expert here, your buddy when the transmission ultimately dies could in fact test out my perspective. The question is, would he be successful going after you, or Edmunds? It would only cost him 30-50 bucks to try.
Sounds like you expected a big ole pat on the back for gracing this board with your presence. I'm not saying what is right or wrong, but there is no need or use in you getting so upset about it. If you feel you are unequivocally right, your end goal can be nothing more than leading the horse to water.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The world is full of armchair mechanics who are oblivious to how badly they would fail in a professional setting. Trying to pretend that what we do is simple can play easily to the PC crowd even when the things they propose are dead wrong. As I have said a few times here, it's easy to write and tell people what they want to hear, telling them the truth is a lot harder and often gets the reaction that you have made to my response. I'll never get used to anyone with no real experience playing the role of an expert, while real technicians are assumed to be anything but. If dealing with that means that I end up writing with a bit of a chip on my shoulder as I have in the last few responses then all I can do is ask readers to look beyond the emotion displayed and try and grasp the facts. This isn't a game from my perspective, I have to deal with the misconceptions all of the time and it's time someone does speak up and try and put a stop to them.
I suppose maybe Steve was thinking I'd see the addition to this thread and take some time from my current schedule and chime in about the scan tool story. He was right if that's the reason he added the link to this thread.
Part of a shop owner's skills is how to read people and situations. If an owner isn't particularly good at that, then I'd agree---trust no one, ever.
If someone is ready to junk a car and comes to you desperate for advice, and you get them back on the road for $75 bucks with a fluid change, I think it would be most unusual for them to sue you for it.
If I were some big city dealership, then no relationship would be personal and the subject of finding affordable solutions probably wouldn't even come up.
"We have attempted to temporally stop this transmission from slipping by installing incorrect fluid...This is not a correct repair and the customer is aware that the transmission probably needs an overhaul...We are doing this at the customer's request"
Then have the customer sign that. Problem solved.
This is a great example of why shops are relucant to do a customer a favor. They can and will backfire and the customers will "forget" how you tried to sae them money.
**Former shop manager who went to Small Claims Court four times and never lost.
We ate it of course.
Our Ford-Audi transmission shifts beautifully so far but if it craps out I'll let you all know.
To the guy making those comments...you have NO IDEA who you are talking to or what his experience and qualifications are!
We sold that Ford-Audi and it worked fine for a month. We got it back in our lap. The Audi dealer we took it to was able to figure out what had happened.
The shop siad they had told the Audi owner that they had no idea how long the fix would last so they traded it in.
Of course, we had no recourse and we let the matter drop.
I forget how many thousands of doallars that cost our store.
And, yes, we did test drive that trade and it operated fine.
What happens is that the belt slips when shifting and man, you get some ugly jolting throughout the car.
My advice would be if someone wants to sell you an older (early 2000s) Audi with a bad CVT, just junk the car. It's merely throwing good money after bad IMO.
Of course, if I were a shop owner fixing Audis, I might encourage the repair, of course, of course.
An "old timer" suggested that he poke a bunch of sawdust into the rear end which he did with great success!
As I recall, he had to give it a couple more doses but it was still pretty quiet when he sold the car a year or so later.
Other than the bad differential, the car was like new! I think he sold it for something like 350.00 at the time.
the private owner has more "remedies" at his disposal than the repair shop, no doubt about it.
"We have attempted to temporally stop this transmission from slipping by installing incorrect fluid...This is not a correct repair and the customer is aware that the transmission probably needs an overhaul...We are doing this at the customer's request"
OK, so you put it in writing that you knew what you were doing was wrong.
Need I really say more?
I know enough about his current level of experience. Besides, right back at you with that same comment.
Quote "We sold that Ford-Audi and it worked fine for a month. We got it back in our lap. The Audi dealer we took it to was able to figure out what had happened."
Ford-Audi? Care to elaborate on exactly what car this was?
But as far as getting burned by something doctored that's the most likely result of someone intentionally not repairing something correctly and that's an unsuspecting 3rd party ending up taking the fall exactly as you describe here.
Quote" The shop siad they had told the Audi owner that they had no idea how long the fix would last so they traded it in.
I'll speak out against such practices any time that I hear of one. Fix it right, or step away from the car.
There shouldn't be any question about what right is now should there? How "right" would you appear to be if you suddenly had a TV camera in your face with a reporter asking you why you didn't fix the car in a fashion that restored it to O.E. specs?
What if the repair works for another 100,000 miles?
Do you really want to play "what if" ? Would the repair as presented be acceptable to a customer who's vehicle was still under the O.E warranty? Do you think the O.E.M. would approve of the repair attempt in question?
A proper repair is one that would be recognized as correct by any (and all) of the afore mentioned parties under any conditions.
welding a crack in an aluminum transaxle housing rather than ordering a new one
What does the manufacturer permit? Welding aluminum isn't a big deal depending on where the crack is, but that doesn't make it a proper repair in every instance. Some manufacturers might even permit such an effort under very specific conditions. Professionalism requires that these kinds of decisions are not made by perspective of one lone individual. That's something that was clearly lost by shop owners in the past and is one the reasons we struggle with the kinds of image problems that we have today.
The honda seller tried to claim that I don't know enough about you, nor your experience. While I may not know all of the specifics, trying to push the idea that some hack remedy deserves to be recognized as a professional effort makes me glad you are a former shop owner, and out of the trade today. Some people try and call us the auto repair industry. This current exchange is a cold reminder of why we aren't an industry, industries have standards that they hold themselves and their peers to. For all of us who do perscribe to live up to an effective standard, there are a bunch who think it's OK for them to do anything they darn well please. Should they happen to get away with one even if only for a short period of time, they try and use that as anecdotal proof of their competence. In reality it's the exact opposite that is occurring and if it was only a mark on them, then nature would take it's course and they would be gone. But no, what they succeed in doing is pulling the whole trade down to their level, and that eventually shows up as a loss for the consumer.
I really can't get over the irony here, you're the host for an organization that got my attention because they took shots at a weak segment of the trade, and your "remedy" amounts to a snake oil scam and it seems no one else cares. But if the positions were reversed, someone in your organization would be out to burn me at the stake if I did as you are proposing.
I think this is an extreme exageration. Using different fluids than prescribed by the manufacturer to improve performance is done every minute of every day. Ever hear of synthetic oil? In several of my vehicles, I've changed the trans oil to a difference brand/viscositychemical compound to improve shifting. It is most definitely not "snake oil." It is absurd to state that it is. In many many instances, laboratory testing has shown great improvement in engine wear through the use oils alternative to the OE specs.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
No, how about you tell me what is a synthetic oil. (sarc)
Does the word synthetic have any real meaning here in the U.S. when it comes to engine oils and other automotive fluids? Does the word synthetic mean the same here in the U.S. as it does in Europe and other places around the world?
Exactly what is the base stock group oil that is required to make Audi CVT fluid? Group II? Group III? Group III plus? Group IV? Group V or is it a Group VI?
Ford Type F is a Group I base stock.
In order to make a CVT work the correct fluids molecules are engineered to be long and thin with an irregular shape. When under pressure between two components the oil squeezes out and the molecules interlock with each other turing into a glassy substance which allowins torque to pass from one component to the next without them coming into conatct with each other. Exacty how does Type F a group I mineral oil accomplish that task?
As far as people using non-approved oils just because you got away with it doesn't make it right and a failure down the road could easily have been caused by an incorrect choice but few people have the training to actually know the difference. We are seeing VW/Audi camshaft failures all over the place. The cause is actually the wrong engine oil has been getting used combined with innapropriate drain intervals. Many of these are with people who have been using a well known synthetic that claims to meet all of VW's requirements but if you go look you'll see the wording is very carefully chosen to suggest the oil meets VW specs when it in fact does not.
The owner had taken it to a shop who had told them it needed a transmission overhaul at great expense. The owner said " Isn't here something you can do to get it to hang on for awhile"
So the shop owner doesed it with the wrong fluid, additives ect and it started working again, just fine. The owner KNEW it had been mickey moused and that it wouldn't last long.
As a shop owner I wouldn't do anything like that and as a shop manager I learned that trying to save a customer money by cutting corners or by Jerry Rigging something rarely was appreciated and often would backfire.
Like our host here, unless I REALLY knew my customer I wouldn't short cut any repair. I would do the job correctly or I would decline the work.
As a kid working in a gas station, w did a lot of questionalble repairs in order to keep cars running for people who were barely making ends meet and living from paycheck to paycheck.
But cars were simpler then.
I can tell you how many VW heads we saved using these without further problems.
I even used JB Weld on an oil filter mounting plate on one of my cars. It never gave me a bit of trouble during the five more years I owned the car.
It's all a matter of communicationg with your **trusted** customer and
offering them a choice.
" Your oil pan drain bolt has been stripped. I can replace your oil pan for 400.00 which is the reccommended repair or I can try an oversized plug or maybe a Heli Coil for a lot less"
I would then explain pros and cons of both types of repair and let the customer know that on future oil changes, extra care would be needed.
If the customer chose the cheaper repair, I would note on the invoice..." Oil pan bolt was badly stripped...reccommended new oil pan but gave cusotmer the option of a lesser repair customer understands a replacement oil pan may be needed in the future"
Now, if the oil pan was horribly stripped to the point I wasn't comfortable my heli coil or oversized plug would do the job, I wouldn't do this.
And I wouldn't install one of those rubber expandable ones either!
I'm sure they would not put type F fluid in a stranger's Audi. But if they can save a good customer some $$$, they'll try. Years of experience tell them when it's worth trying and when it is foolish.
In the case of the Audi, it was either type F fluid or the junkyard---that's it---A or B. Which would you take as the owner? Option C, a rebuild, was financially impossible.
I'm sure a modern architect or engineer could find all kinds of faults with Roman aqueduct construction, but while these aqueducts are still standing, and many are, and still being used (!!), the Romans can thumb their noses at the experts. **
** the Romans had no re-bar, so they invented this crazy thing called "concrete".
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You know when someone with 35 years experience working on high performance cars says "I have an idea", it pays to at least hear them out.
I'm always listening not for WHAT people believe, but HOW they came to believe it.
Exactly. I suppose the cardoc would never save a head or other expensive part by using a Heli Coil.
I can tell you how many VW heads we saved using these without further problems.
Heli coils are a valid repair, and I use them and taperserts all of the time. I've got more NorthStar engines under my belt than I care to count.
You didn't answer the question about the CVT fluid, is that a dodge or do you not know the answer?
The term "Snake Oil" as used is accurate. You have to understand exactly what is taking place inside that transmission with the addition of the incorrect fluid. Instead of the fluid being able to prevent the metal to metal contact while allowing for torque transfer, it's being scraped off because of slippage. The CVT has a natural "slipping" feeling to it so for the moment it feels as though it has been restored but that is the equivalent of the placebo effect. The chain and pulleys are now contacting each other and wear will be occurring at a much greater rate. It is only a matter of time before that wear becomes a full failure. Exactly how much time is hard to say.
belt slips when warm, non-adjustable, repair worth more than the car
Hmmm.....
junk pristine vehicle or try higher friction fluid?
Answer: What would a reasonable man do for a valued customer, with customer's consent and full knowledge?
1. Say, no, junk it, I don't trust you.
2. Give it a shot.
The Audi we took in had a bad CVT transmission. Someone had installed Type F fluid and some additives to get it work and it did!
At least long enough for them to trade it in and for about a month afterwards.
Got it?
CVT fluid is typically a group V synthetic. It's long irregularly shaped molecules as I stated earlier interlock with each other when squeezed between two surfaces and form a glassy substance that allows torque to pass without the two components coming in contact with each other. Type F fluid is a group I base stock mineral oil. It will lubricate the components allowing for "consistent slippage" instead of the slip stick they were experiencing as the transmission was failing. Since CVT's have a feel that suggests they are slipping anyway it goes unnoticed unless you really know the input and output data ratios, VS vehicle speed and pulley apply pressures to look for in scan data. Even then it can be a little subjective right up until it fails completely. The slipping caused by the mineral oil allows the lubricant to be wiped off of the faces of the components and you get metal to metal contact which for a short while makes the transmission appear to work, when it's actually destroying the components.
Shiftright hasn't done anything inventive or creative here because it's been tried unsuccessfully many times. Doing this has been how other people have been ripped off when the current owner dumps the car, exactly as you described.
GOT IT ???
If they have a problem with the transmission, type F isn't the answer as you have now seen me explain.
You know when someone with 35 years experience working on high performance cars says "I have an idea", it pays to at least hear them out.
Now if I say something like that I'm all full of myself right? But let's try it anyway.
When someone has been a professional technician for over 35 years, is a current shop owner, technical writer, instructor, who specializes diagnostics and repairing the high tech computer controlled systems found on today's cars his training might just exceed the average. FWIW I teach a computer controlled transmission class for professional technicians that was written by a group of technicians and engineers. We have a nice set of slides that explain and show the damage done by the ill advised attempts such as yours. You were neither creative nor inventive as it has been attempted many times and we know exactly what the fluid and subsequent damage look like when this happens.
I'm always listening not for WHAT people believe, but HOW they came to believe it
I have gotten where I am at through hard work in the shop, constantly attending training classes, self study, and of course today while prepping to present classes. Even with being in the shop some 50 hours a week and in a classroom somewhere between eight and sixteen hours a week, I still study more than twenty hours, each and every week. Somehow you must have missed that I put forth that kind of effort in what "I have come to believe".
You see, I know that I don't know everything and so I constantly study so that I am as ready as I can possibly be for the customers today.
BTW on top of everything else I am the 2012 NAPA ASE Tech of the Year for Carrollton Ohio, while I actually teach for one of their competitors. This is the third time that I have achieved that level of recognition in the last decade.