Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

0patience

[Error Will Robinson Error]

When Right to Repair is passed, the new law will save motoring consumers money by requiring the car companies to provide all non-proprietary repair information to vehicle owners or their preferred technicians. The car companies provide full repair information to their new car dealerships, but relatively little to the independents or to the owners of the vehicles.

This is currently what the manufacturers are already doing. The "non-proprietary" information is already available in most instances, with exception of Suzuki's J2012 info, which is copyrighted by SAE International and they go after anyone trying to post, print or display their information.

Currently, auto manufacturers provide only some of the diagnostic and safety information needed to repair vehicle owners’ cars with independent technicians, limiting consumers’ choices and losing business for neighborhood repair shops.

They are stretching it a bit.

[http://massrighttorepair.com/2011/12/right-to-repair-ballot-spot-approved-by-st- ate-secretary/]

thecardoc3

While your at their website make sure you read the stories.

http://massrighttorepair.com/stories/

"Barry" is a typical ESO who is making a good living, and for the longest time refused to buy the tools that were available. The VAG/COM would have supported what he needed to do with his Audi at the crippling price of about $700. The VAS 5052 at a little close to $6000 would have him eye level with the Audi dealer.

They are stretching it a bit

LOL, that's an understatement. Have you seen their proposal of making scan tools based on J2534? J2534 is not a scan tool, and never was intended to be used as one, it is simply a programming interface. They confuse the facts that while some scan tools are also capapble of being the j2534 interface, the opposite is not true. But don't let details stand in the way of a good story.

0patience

The problem I am seeing in all this is that the original idea/discussion on making a bill like this was that the impression was that it was to make it so that the "proprietary" information would be available to the techs/shops and aftermarket diagnostic production.
Currently, there are a few of them that supply NO proprietary information outside their specific "brand" of diagnostic tools. This allows no competition by the aftermarket and eliminates a lot of smaller shops from being able to purchase the equipment.

The heavy duty side is even worse. Even large fleets have a hard time purchasing Cat diagnostic equipment. While there is "generic" diagnostic equipment, it is extremely limited in what it will do. Most won't run cylinder balance tests, injector cut out tests and the like. So, basically the generic versions are an enhanced code reader.

It seems that this has been twisted around so severely by politicians that it no longer even resembles the original idea.

thecardoc3

Currently, there are a few of them that supply NO proprietary information outside their specific "brand" of diagnostic tools. This allows no competition by the aftermarket and eliminates a lot of smaller shops from being able to purchase the equipment.

Nothing in the bill is going to change that. If you want to have full VW/Audi service information then you have to buy the VAS5052 and maintain a subscription to the VW/Audi website. Then you have everything that the dealership does,and in the exact same format that they get it. The same goes with BMW, and Mercedes. There are independents who have and are spending that money and support those makes fully.


The problem I am seeing in all this is that the original idea/discussion on making a bill like this was that the impression was that it was to make it so that the "proprietary" information would be available to the techs/shops and aftermarket diagnostic production

It's never been about proprietary information as far as repair information goes. The parts manufacturers overseas want to be able to make knock-off parts and need the software to prove if the part they are making actually meets the O.E. specs or not. Anyone with sufficient talent and desire can make a bumper support that would fit the front of a Mustang, but proving that it would crush correctly and transfer energy in such a way that the airbag system operates as it is designed takes proprietary software that the O.E.s don't want to release. The same goes for the airbag module itself, they can make modules overseas, but cannot prove they will do the job correctly. The O.E's have ways of proving that a part be it an original or a replacement will work as designed. In the langauge of the bill the word "certify" isn't one to be overlooked because as one preson said, it opens the door wide enough to drive a parts truck through. There are others in there as well, but that one is the easiest to explain. Read the bill, find that word and copy the paragraph here were you find it and then I'll break it down.

R2R has never been about us getting repair information or tools, the parts suppliers are just using the shops and techs. In fact they are simply exploiting the fact that many of the shops and techs out there don't have a valid business approach for all of these new generation cars.

Back in 1996 when OBDII first spread across the country the O.E's had their hands full just getting their own technicians up to speed with training and equipment. The facts are we in the aftermarket had always simply relied on natural talents and made our own way. It wasn't until arund 2000 that we finally got their attention and got them to realize that we weren't able to fix the cars like we always had and we were in trouble. They never tried to lock us out, basically they never thought about us at all. Meanwhile as a trade we were locking ourselves out. Some of us are still doing that! Some still refuse to buy the O.E. tools and limit the manufacturers they choose to work on. Many still don't get to training at all and try and rely on their base experience to get them through.

Then with all of that going on, we still have outside forces who make their own way simply by writing their rip-off books and stories and they themselves have no idea what it takes to really be a technician working on todays cars. That also means the consumers aren't being told the truth by the self proclaimed experts and in many cases a shop/tech could be doing the job exactly the way they should be only to have the consumer walk away with a car this was diagnosed and repaired correctly, but still thinking they have been taken advantage of. Oh yea, it was exactly another round of that kind of garbage in the media that led me here.

Steve, when you (or anyone else) press for free information for the owner to supposedly fix the car themselves you are in the very same breath still trying to say that the training and experience required to be that mechanic has no value. That pressure has worked for decades to keep prices low, so low in fact that the trade hasn't been able to grow with the technology. I said before there is a cost for free, someone is paying for it somewhere. Today the frees of yesterday are found when we see the real stories of multiple visits to try and repair a car that is having dozens of parts thrown at it. Those mechanics didn't get up that morning and think they were going to rip someone off, they feel deep down that they are doing the best that they can and it bothers them deeply to fail to fix something for a customer. When that car showed up with some strange symptom and all they are able to do is reach for the very same kinds of silver bullets that almost every owner looking for answers on one of the other forums is doing. As I watch this all take place I keep wondering what is it going to take for everyone who agrees that it is wrong for a shop to simply replace parts to turn around and agree its also wrong to set the consumer up to simply be able to do no better? It is wrong to just throw parts at the problem, it needs to be diagnosed correctly and here is where we have the biggest problem, the tools, training, and experienced required are more expensive today thanthey were at any other time in my career, and the Mr. Reeds of the world do everything in ther power to not educate the consumer about that aspect. In fact everything out of them still sounds like we are still working on 60's era cars.

By now you should have seen a clear difference in how I have answered many of the questions on that answers forum as compared to what would usually be there. There is still one responder who likely means well but would be the rip-off that all of the consumers fear if he really worked the way he is advising the consumers.

BTW, I'm about out of time and need to get back to my study routine so your going to be seeing less of me here. I can't keep paying with my time with nothing ever coming back.

stever

Parts manufacturers overseas want to be able to make knock-off parts and need the software to prove if the part they are making actually meets the O.E. specs or not.

There should be a happy medium there where the IP is protected and paid for vs limiting consumers to a single source of parts.

I fix a lot of stuff myself, usually by the "taking it apart and putting it back together" school and a lot of "sleep engineering". Last week's project was saving a sewing machine from the dump. But I pretty much know (now) how far I can go with my limited skill set, and when I need to get a pro in to fix whatever.

Paying to replace a battery when I can do it myself is a waste of my money. If changing the battery screws up something else, then maybe I need to know that I need a memory saver in the power port, or that I first need to remove a fender liner. That kind of info should be out there.

Plenty of shops don't diagnose problems correctly. Sometimes it takes them two or three tries to figure something out. Sometimes they are just ripping off the consumer. That's another reason why you see so many hidden camera stories - ripping off consumers is too common - look at the post from last night for example:

renickh, "GMC Yukon Reduced Engine Power message" #311, 30 Dec 2011 7:30 pm

The more info the consumer has, the better the odds that we won't get ripped off.

I know you have to make a living but don't be a stranger.

thecardoc3

The more info the consumer has, the better the odds that we won't get ripped off.

Funny. The lower the revenues are for shops, the less training and equipment they are going to invest in and therefore more consumers are likely to be ripped off, information or not. Will someone ever get to stop this insane merry-go-round?

thecardoc3

Something is wrong with that posts information.

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/mmp/gmc~yukon~throttle_body~parts.html

thecardoc3

Yes, something is wrong with that post.

http://www.bar.ca.gov/pubwebquery/station/stationlist.aspx

Searched for RCar, any number of ways as a licensed shop and I cannot find it.

stever

I asked him to post details Friday, so hopefully more info will be forthcoming. A cell number was posted and we frown on posting phone numbers in the forums so that was removed.

I suppose I could nose around and find some other recent posts where people are complaining about taking their car to the shop only to have the same problem within a short time. But I think you know the answer to that.

Oh heck, here's a few from the last several weeks.

link, link, link and link.

Of course millions more get work done right the first time and never bother to post about their experience anywhere. Not newsworthy.

But that gets us back to the question of whether there really are a lot of incompetent or crooked mechanics out there or are cars just too complicated these days? And if techs simply just need more training, how will Right to Repair help them to fix cars?

0patience

Meanwhile as a trade we were locking ourselves out. Some of us are still doing that! Some still refuse to buy the O.E. tools and limit the manufacturers they choose to work on. Many still don't get to training at all and try and rely on their base experience to get them through.
When the base wages in some areas are low and the shop itself refuses to pay for or pay the mechanic enough to afford it, then there is always going to be that problem.

It's never been about proprietary information as far as repair information goes.
In the late 90s, they were pushing it as such in seminars. There were even discussions at SEMA/AAPEX about it.

thecardoc3

Does the phrase "self fullfilling prophecy" have any meaning to you? Many of those stories are directly attributable to insufficient training, which is something that can only be addressed with $$$$$. If you understood the situation at all, then maybe you would really want to do something positive for the consumers involved and try and prevent those situations from occurring again, and again, and again. In many way's it's funny how everybody involved in those stories would also be someone elses hero like Rcar allegedly is in the above link. But as this career often does, there is just too much to know and eventually the gaps in someones education rears up and stories like your links are the result.

You want to govern a no-win situation. The shops are wrong for taking on work they cannot handle. The shops are also wrong for getting the training and becoming equipped to handle the harder work if they charge for doing so.

I'll tell you a rip-off "story".

2000 Ford Windstar, failed state inspection because the RF turn signal wasn't working. The schematic was incorrect, and where power to the RF turn signal was supposed to be coming out of the GEM module, the wire showed no output. But, as I said the schematic wasn't correct, the wires on the sides of the pin and color wire that was supposed to be the RF turn signal didn't match. Now, get the diagnosis wrong and the customer gets sold a GEM module that they might not (turns out did not) need.

Looking back I'm sure that part of the issue was the onset of vision problems brought on by age, the diagnostic time took a lot longer than it should have. But after getting a correct schematic, and removing the GEM module from it's restricted location under the dash to improve visibility, the correct output terminal was identified and the RF turn signal output was verified as present and the diagnosis of a broken wire was made. The repair was to simply run a replacement wire, that was properly woven into the harness for protection and for asthetics. The total time invested including searching for valid information was a little over four hours. The customer was charged one hour for diagnostics, and the one hour straight labor that it took to run the replacement wire. Now consider that it might have taken two to three hours to actually locate and repair the broken wire.

That "customer" felt we ripped him off, and has bad mouthed us ever since. You see you don't get both sides of the story with any one of those links, if you listened to "Lee" you wouldn't get our side. For our part, we didn't even pass on the information fee that we had to pay in order to go onto Fords O.E.site where I found a revised schematic that corrects what you can still find in MOD. We didn't sell him a $500 module that he didn't need.

If someone had replaced the GEM and then when that didn't fix the turn signal, simply repaired the wire and didn't say so, that would have been a rip-off. JMHO. We charged him what we would have if the job had flowed perfectly even though it didn't and to hear him talk we were supposed to be crooks. (approx $170)

Oh, BTW Lee tried to go back on his word and wanted to come in with his 2005 Malibu last year that was a random no-start security light flashing that had already had four attempts to solve elsewhere. One of the shops had actually called us to help them out, and I would have done it except I found out it was Lee's car. The best part of all of this is that both of the shops that failed to solve this advised him to take it to us. He even tried to apologize for the way he went around bad-mouthing us.

I told Lee that I hope he likes to walk.

thecardoc3

It's never been about proprietary information as far as repair information goes.

In the late 90s, they were pushing it as such in seminars. There were even discussions at SEMA/AAPEX about it.

Then under Congresses urging, NASTF was formed and the information and tooling issues have been getting dealt with. That's why ASA signed the agreement, and the people who were really only there for parts abandoned ASA and started out with their own campaign that is still running (unsuccessfully) today.

thecardoc3

But that gets us back to the question of whether there really are a lot of incompetent or crooked mechanics out there or are cars just too complicated these days?

A very competent mechanic can be suddenly faced with a complicated problem that simply outclasses his/her current level of training and it can end up as one of your links.

And if techs simply just need more training, how will Right to Repair help them to fix cars?

It wont. And neither will your links, nor one of Phillip Reeds articles. I could go on and on about all of the stuff that happens that won't help. Even the talk about the cars of the future that "might" be better at diagnosing themselves is wasted time, those cars don't exist yet and the consumers need people who can diagnose and repair the cars they already own, today. The consumers need real and fair advice on the work is really done today, diagnostics shouldn't be "free" and there is something wrong anytime someone suggests otherwise. The trade, and the work that the people inside the trade perform today has changed, and the public needs to be educated about the right way to approach problems with their cars.

That's something that you can't do if you don't really know what is right or not, and that goes for all of the self proclaimed experts that have been trying to give the public advice.

0patience

That's something that you can't do if you don't really know what is right or not, and that goes for all of the self proclaimed experts that have been trying to give the public advice.

So are you saying that no one should give advice? That all of the people who offer any advice are always wrong or hacks? That all of those people who offer advice are "self proclaimed experts"?
That everything on vehicles is "too complicated" for people without the proper training or tooling? That is how it comes across.

As I've said before. Free advice is worth what you pay for it. As long as folks understand this, take it for what it's worth.

thecardoc3

Read into that what you want. I'm referring to the so called experts who have been critical of pricing, and other management practices that have had to change in order for shops to try and keep pace with technology.

It's shops who have been bending to that pressure who today find themselves looking at some of the promises from the R2R proponents and get convinced that it might save them from their present fate. Shops who have been persuaded to try and live by the expectations of consumer experts who don't know what they are talking about that today cannot afford the training and equipment that they need in order to not end up being one of Steve's rip-off links.

But from there are the cars really complicated? Parts of them are and some parts of them still are not. The "uncomfortable truth" is if the people who have made the investment to handle the really tough stuff, only ever see the nightmares and don't get to subsidize that with some of the easy stuff your not going to keep them in business, and they won't be there when someone needs them. All of the nonsense aside, it's all to convenient to forget that we have to be profitable and earn a living or it's all for naught.

Free advice is worth what you pay for it. As long as folks understand this, take it for what it's worth.

It's one thing to say that here, lets see that phrase added to each answer any consumer gets on the questions forum and see how many agree with you. They are not going there asking for free help and expecting to be dissapointed with what they get. BTW "Z" must have gotten his butt kicked by a CMP one time based on all of the times I've seen him reccomend that someone should shotgun one.

thecardoc3

I wonder if "this guy" would like to write a story to become one of your links.

I ran down to the shop this morning to take care of some things that had to be done today, (that are administrative in nature, not mechanical )and sitting right in front of the shop was a Caravan that isn't supposed to be here.

Inside the shop I found a note from a "former" customer that says, 'No Gauges, windshield wipers, interior lights or headlights. Has a new Body Control module in it. etc....

I remember him price shopping and haven't seen him in some three years. Conventional thinking might have someone say, well fix this and you'll be the hero and get a customer for life. That's actually false, at best I'll get this one repair and never see him again. These kinds of problems can be very tricky because what may have simply started out as a broken car now easily has had additional problems added to it because of someone shotgunning parts. My first expectation is this isn't a new BCM, but simply a new to this car BCM, and the only reason it runs at all right now is because it doesn't have SKIM. But the moment communication is restored if this donor BCM came from a car that had theft deterrent this car is going to learn that it is supposed to have it, and this will immeadiately be more than just a simple diagnosis and repair.

To even consider working on this I have to know where the BCM came from and if it's anything other than a reman out of the box, the original has to go back in before I try to do anything with this car.

Well anyway he is about 12th in line right now and that pretty much means it will be Friday before it even gets close to the front door. Had he been a regular customer, this would have been addressed and repaired last week (if not sooner because I don't know how long this has been acting up). Now he should consider himself fortunate we are even here to try and fix this for him, if it came down to his choices in the past we wouldn't be. He followed the kinds of advice that the self proclaimed consumer experts have been handing out. He, like they refused to see and accept the bigger picture and the technology in this '98 forced shops and techs to change their business habits and we had a problem where what was really correct for us to be doing was treated as if it wasn't.

We survived in spite of the advice they gave consumers, but thats more a testament to me simply being too stubborn to give up and quit. That's the story that consumers really need to have shown to them.

stever

A twenty second net search on "replace bcm" will tell you that you have to program it. Knowing that, most people will go to the dealer or at least find a shop that has the factory tool that they invested several thousands of dollars in.

Be a bit simpler if you could just plug your old and new BCM into your laptop with a couple of USB cables and let the old memory flash the new one with the vin and odometer, fobs and all the rest. But no, every tech has to have a $3,000 scanner, and the manufacturer specific program that also costs a bunch.

Some of those links I found remind me of an old Seinfield episode.

robr2

But no, every tech has to have a $3,000 scanner, and the manufacturer specific program that also costs a bunch.

But is R2R going to get rid of that? Should the manufacturers drop their prices on the equipment and access to tech information to the independents? Should the independents get a better price on the above than the dealers who invest hundreds of thousands or more into facilities and training?

IMHO, no. Would Edmunds sell it's information to someone who wants to make a competing system?

stever

Hm, sort of explains why I try to avoid Apple products. Maybe we need an open source car.

0patience

Now he should consider himself fortunate we are even here to try and fix this for him, if it came down to his choices in the past we wouldn't be. He followed the kinds of advice that the self proclaimed consumer experts have been handing out. He, like they refused to see and accept the bigger picture and the technology in this '98 forced shops and techs to change their business habits and we had a problem where what was really correct for us to be doing was treated as if it wasn't.

The problem. The advice is out there. It is an integral part of the internet and isn't going away. No matter what. Wrong, right or indifferent, it is there and there is nothing that any of us can do about it, except take the responsibility to correct that information. I've probably said it a dozen times that the ECM/BCM/PCM/TCM should be the very LAST thing that is ever replaced.

In all my years doing this, I could safely say that I have replaced less than 20 control modules. 2 of which were TCMs that failed because of other problems. 1 PCM that failed because someone jump started it and crossed the jumper cables and the number one cause of failure on the ones in my area that I have seen pre-96 have been from moisture.

Do they fail? yes. Do they fail as much as people think? no.
Proper diagnosis in most cases will often reveal another problem, such as a ground problem, a short or open circuit or some other problem that hasn't been found yet. So I agree on that point.

However, on the advice part, while there is a ton of mis-information out there, I don't agree that it shouldn't be out there. That is conceited and a holier than thou attitude.
As a mechanic (or as the automotive side calls it, tech), being open minded is something that will get you a whole lot further than being set in your ways. Without bending to the ways of things, you will get lost in the shuffle.

I usually get folks come to me after they have been to most of the shops in the area to fix something. More often than not, the problem is often something that 30 years ago was a "basic knowledge" problem. Why it wasn't found, I have no idea.
And often they will make a comment on how someone suggested this or that and I politely explain why that before throwing parts, they or someone knowledgeable should properly diagnose it. Was this checked? Was that checked? What was found? Fuel pressure, compression, voltage, etc. What were those values? If you don't have the test values, then I have to start from scratch, which is what ANY SHOP should do.

I work with truck drivers and operators. More often than not, getting information out of them about what is happening is like pulling eye teeth, so you have to learn to start from scratch. Don't assume anything. Assuming you know what is wrong will only get you in trouble.

Again, the opinion of an old mechanic, take it for what it's worth.

thecardoc3

A twenty second net search on "replace bcm" will tell you that you have to program it. Knowing that, most people will go to the dealer or at least find a shop that has the factory tool that they invested several thousands of dollars in.

A few years experience , and/or looking that up in service information will show you that you "might" have to program it. Suffice it to say a high percentage of the O.E. replacement units are fully programmed. But don't confuse that with needing to do relearns and VTSS setups. That is not the same as programing it.

Be a bit simpler if you could just plug your old and new BCM into your laptop with a couple of USB cables and let the old memory flash the new one with the vin and odometer, fobs and all the rest. But no, every tech has to have a $3,000 scanner, and the manufacturer specific program that also costs a bunch.

$3000 scanner? Guess again, per manufacturer. Heck the top aftermarket tools without the ability to do reflashing are more than that.

USB cables? Pretend your an engineer and you have to design and build a car that is as troublefree as you can humanly make it, and you also have to be able to protect it and the software that makes it perform all of the functions that the operator and passengers need it to. Would making it that open be safer for the average owner or put them at more risk? Would theft deterrents really be as secure as you find them to be today? Picture a situation where an airbag should have deployed, but because of hacked or corrupted software it didn't. Do you think you'd win in court? Think about that, you left the system open, why didn't you know better than to do that?

thecardoc3

In all my years doing this, I could safely say that I have replaced less than 20 control modules.

So you have less experience with this facet of the job than a good number of other techs do. I've replaced more GM Safari van PCMs as well as Dodge Caravan TCM's each for road salt damage alone than that.

Proper diagnosis in most cases will often reveal another problem, such as a ground problem, a short or open circuit or some other problem that hasn't been found yet. So I agree on that point.

The problem is it takes time, training, the right equipment, plus the right technician to do that. You keep missing the point that the advice I am referring to was from consumer experts who keep trying to suggest to the consumer that this isn't something they should be paying for.

However, on the advice part, while there is a ton of mis-information out there, I don't agree that it shouldn't be out there. That is conceited and a holier than thou attitude.

You see, you keep missing the point. When you figure out that this isn't the subject that I have been talking about let me know.

I work with truck drivers and operators. More often than not, getting information out of them about what is happening is like pulling eye teeth, so you have to learn to start from scratch. Don't assume anything. Assuming you know what is wrong will only get you in trouble

However while we are on the subject in regards to the way you want to press it, you do realize that 99% of the "How do I fix my car when it does XXXXXX" questions can really only get responses that are based on nothing but assumptions?

Again, the opinion of an old mechanic, take it for what it's worth

Right back at you on that one.....

thecardoc3

Without bending to the ways of things, you will get lost in the shuffle.

Strange advice. You stopped working the retail sector and no matter how you may want to argue, the facts are fleet is different, a lot different. Virtually every independent technician over the last few decades has been getting lost in the shuffle and it's only the ones who have stood up and refused to continue to put up with all of the nonsense that the job shovels at them that have made progress in their careers. In many cases that means they left the trade for greener pastures and we have lost some people who the consumers really needed us to have on our bays.

If "I" would have simply accepted things as they were everywhere else, I wouldn't be self employe'd right now. I wouldn't be teaching right now, I wouldn't be getting articles published in national magazines, right now.

0patience

So you have less experience with this facet of the job than a good number of other techs do. I've replaced more GM Safari van PCMs as well as Dodge Caravan TCM's each for road salt damage alone than that.
Road salt isn't used where I live. Moisture used to be a major problem with the pre-96 vehicles, but not so much with the later models. Don't confuse not replacing with lack of experience.

You stopped working the retail sector and no matter how you may want to argue, the facts are fleet is different, a lot different.
No question about it. But I don't see how that affects diagnostics.
Time is still a concern.

thecardoc3

Road salt isn't used where I live. Moisture used to be a major problem with the pre-96 vehicles, but not so much with the later models. Don't confuse not replacing with lack of experience.

Actually I'm not, it's just that my experience and exposure to multiple situations allowed me to manipulate your statement in exactly the same kind of fashion that the writers of "those books" do against us. You haven't experienced that facet, at the same time you HAVE experienced hundreds of things that I have never seen. Those writers would try and twist that into anything other than the simple reality that the job is just that varied and complicated. That's why there are shops and techs who specialize more as I do, but we still need the easy stuff or we will fail to be able to sustain the pace we have to try and carry.

No question about it. But I don't see how that affects diagnostics.
Time is still a concern.

Can you/have you tested for and confirmed an out of time camshaft (advanced or retarded) with nothing other than "a compression test"? While the engine still made normal vacuum and compression?

Can you do a compression test that in a single event prove exactly where a cylinder is losing it's compression? (Intake Valve, Exhaust valve, cylinder/piston/ring issue)

Seriously though, lets say you have kept up the pace and can do compression testing with pressure transducer and an ocsilloscope, and other similar excercises. How many shops/techs around you and your shop can do the same?

Let's try another one.

Can you test and see a mechanical failure of an injector while in the road and know that the computer definately turned the injector on, had current flowing but the injector simply failed to open? That scenario would feel exactly like an ignition misfire from the front seat of the car. Tell us why it would NOT feel like a loss of compression misfire.

For the small percentage of technicians that we actually get out to training, these are routines that we are teaching them to do today (among tons of other stuff) that usually require them to also make a financial investement in equipment on top of what they are are already spending. Bear in mind, we don't sell any equipment with our classes, that is purely a decision that the shop owner/technician has to persue on their own. The equipment companies also do not ante in either. This is by design because we operate on a no-strings attached, it's all about the technology and training techs correctly policy.

The techs of today have to have that seasoned seat of the pants feel that you and I have learned through decades of experience, plus they have to also be the robotics technician that requires entirely new levels of critical thinking skills to troubleshoot complicated systems. This entire aspect of what we do is completely ignored until someone experiences an issue similar to the Caravan I mentioned. The routines that will be used to repair that are being actively shared with the techs that show up for training, but pricing pressure is still preventing the majority from filling the seats in the classrooms.

I'd like everyone to wake up to the facts that it takes decades to learn to be the master technician of our generation, and meanwhile we have nothing to really attract the kind of talent that we need in the trade as compared to what they can earn elsewhere, and it takes so long to learn that we lose many of the best candidates that we do attract. Our generation is leaving, and it's going to leave a large gap in capability that no-one will be able to fill in a short period of time.

This still all goes back to where R2R supporters think all they need is "the secret codes" and they will be able to have mechanics that can fix the cars.
That is a false assumption on their part.

stever

Do you think you'd win in court? Think about that, you left the system open, why didn't you know better than to do that?

That's really not much different from doing your own d-i-y brake job and forgetting to install pads on one side. Oh, that was GM, but the example still holds. Negligence happens.

If you're saying that only master techs should be allowed to touch a car, then that's not going to happen.

We're cycling back to the argument that eventually the car will self diagnose a lot of this stuff and you won't need a master tech to tweak something 99% of the time.

thecardoc3

We're cycling back to the argument that eventually the car will self diagnose a lot of this stuff and you won't need a master tech to tweak something 99% of the time.

Those cars don't exist yet. We need to concentrate on what the consumer owns now, and will be owning for the next fifteen to twenty years.

stever

More diagnostic stuff gets added every year.

And I want access to that info, just to help me communicate with my mechanic, if nothing else. :shades:

thecardoc3

And I want access to that info, just to help me communicate with my mechanic, if nothing else

You do realize that when you keep moving the target, you become impossible to satisfy.

More diagnostic stuff gets added every year.

Which is why tooling, and training expenses have skyrocketed for shops.
Oh, maybe you mean onto the cars. Will anything they add to a 2012 make the 1992 Lincoln I just dealt with easier? :P

stever

There are lots of reasons to want information about your car to be easily and freely accessible. Emphasis on free. :P

Communication with the mechanic/dealer, ability to do the scheduled maintenance yourself, ability to troubleshoot and fix problems yourself, ability to tweak settings (like the Prius hypermiling crowd).

And yeah, the more diagnostic routines built into the car, the easier the access should be.

Prices never seem to come down, yet if you think about it, cars are way more reliable these days. People drive them harder and further yet you don't really see that many broken down on the side of the road like you did when you and I were kids.

Some of that cost savings is due to better engineering, including computers that monitor and adjust settings for engine efficiency and shift points. It's not a big leap to extend the engineering to self-reporting, if not self-healing (that chip flash deal).

Mr_Shiftright

Well you 'get back' the gratitude of all the people you've helped---who are right now out of work, lying on their backs in a driveway, wondering what to do before you told them. :P

True we can't give you a trophy but doin' good FEELS good.

"the eagle in its flight leaves no path" ---LOL!

And ditto to Opatience and all the rest of the gang. Sometimes just LISTENING to people and responding encourages them to keep going.

0patience

Those writers would try and twist that into anything other than the simple reality that the job is just that varied and complicated. That's why there are shops and techs who specialize more as I do, but we still need the easy stuff or we will fail to be able to sustain the pace we have to try and carry.
Agreed. This why I advocate PROPERLY educating the consumer.

As I said before, I don't get into pissing matches about what I can and cannot do. I don't puff up my chest to let folks know how good I am. I let my actions speak for me.
As for an oscilloscope, as a heavy mechanic, it is one of the most used pieces of diagnostic tools I have, along with my laptop, which houses too many scan programs and information systems.
I suppose my temp gun is probably listed as one of my most used tools too, since diesels are my mainstay.

In this day and age, it seems that there are so many that are out there to prove that everyone else is wrong, that they fail to see the bigger picture.
There are a lot of places that have this fallacy that only those qualified should be doing any work. Equate that to doing carpentry work, electrical work or plumbing in your home. Licensed contractors do that kind of work, yet it is perfectly acceptable for the homeowner to do that work themselves.
I have several licenses for a lot of the work I do. Do I think that people shouldn't be allowed to do that kind of work on their own vehicles or equipment? They should.

Mr_Shiftright

My dad (engineer for Packard) used to have this saying:

"My resume is at the end of my wrench"

This is IMO a very wise saying, because in the end, it's the result that counts. How you got there *might* be important in terms of safety and cost, but when everyone is stumped, the person with the right answer gets the gold star.

Maybe this is why I loved the book "Moneyball" so much--everyone "sees" the same thing, but only one person looks at it in an entirely different way.

More to topic here--giving consumers tons of data isn't always helpful, if they don't know HOW to think about car problems.

thecardoc3

Maybe this is why I loved the book "Moneyball" so much--everyone "sees" the same thing, but only one person looks at it in an entirely different way.

Interesting. Note any parrallels?

thecardoc3

Prices never seem to come down, yet if you think about it, cars are way more reliable these days. People drive them harder and further yet you don't really see that many broken down on the side of the road like you did when you and I were kids

This is preaching to the Choir.

Prices never seem to go down. Our little business has five phone lines, and that's only because we can overlap three of them otherwise there would be eight.

I've never had a claim yet our business insurance is triple today than it was when we opened fifteen years ago. Rent is double, electric is close to the same but heating oil more than makes up for that as it costs almost $800 a month to heat the shop. Health insurance went over $2100 a month last July. We had no choice but to change to another carrier and with reduced coverage we are still over $1100 for two people. Add in the scan tools, software updates, advertising and everything else and you will find our fixed expenses wipe out the first 10K gross profit each month. The non fixed expenses can float as high as 2K and if we make anything over that we get to call it income. If we don't hit that GP, then the teaching job subsidizes the shop that month and it isn't income either.

R2R proponents claim they can reduce some of the fixed costs of operation, that would take money that right now is guaranteed to be going out the door each month and essentially transform it into income. The reality is it won't do that but everyone doesn't understand that and so they support it.

yet if you think about it, cars are way more reliable these days

That's a fact I often joke about how "They don't build them like they used to".
When I first started working on cars, we were doing regular repairs on them before they were a year old. By the time they were four years old if they had 80K on them they were usually worn out and headed for the junk-yard. Today, they are barely broke in as long as they have been maintained. 20 years ownership and 300,000 miles are both attainable .

thecardoc3

There are a lot of places that have this fallacy that only those qualified should be doing any work. Equate that to doing carpentry work, electrical work or plumbing in your home. Licensed contractors do that kind of work, yet it is perfectly acceptable for the homeowner to do that work themselves.

What you have said here is only partly true.

Mr_Shiftright

Nothing forbids the homeowner from buying the electrical parts he needs, even if the homeowner might burn his own house down.

Car repair or home repair isn't brain surgery after all.

0patience

What you have said here is only partly true.
I'm missing the partial part. There are no laws prohibiting a homeowner from doing any and all of their work on their own home.
If it weren't the case, those major building supply "depot" stores wouldn't be as successful as they are.
Places such as the large "discount" auto parts chains, home repair chains and all of those wouldn't be able to maintain those stores without the DIYer.
And if you think that regulating the DIYer on their vehicle will help auto repair shops, think again. If it gets to that point, the regulations will be so bad, that only the high dollar shops will be able to afford to stay in business. Because if they regulate the DIYer, they will regulate the shops.

There are some start up companies already discussing long term auto rental companies for folks who want a reliable vehicle without the repair and maintenance bills. I would imagine that the long term rentals wouldn't be cheap, but I see it flying if ever they try and regulate the consumers.

stever

Personal car-sharing is now legal in California - renting out your personal car could pay for the maintenance. Typical rate is $8 an hour or $45 a day. (mnn.com)

I don't think it's going to get so bad that you have to join several other people like flying clubs too in order to be able to own and maintain a fleet.

hpmctorque

This sounds like a workable idea, but since few people know about this service, I wonder what the demand is. I might consider being a renter, but I'd be reluctant to have strangers rent my car. How about you?

Steve, this could be a good topic for an forum, if it doesn't already exist.

stever

The topic is around, mostly inactive, but it focused more on the ZipCar model. Maybe a few new posts will bump it up again.

Car Sharing - ZipCar, FlexCar, City CarShare - do they work?

thecardoc3

There is no better perspective than a first perspective. I think you should go out and buy a Chevy. Volt, no three Volts and go into business renting them. Then two years from now let us know how it's working out.

I have loaner car for my customers, normally its just used to get someone to work or back home while we repair their car. You'd probably laugh at first but it's 94 Sundance that just turned 50K and was immaculate when I found it six years ago. While holding up mechanically, it's no longer as pristine as it once was. It's rare that anyone actually puts gas in it, other than my long time customers or myself. When someone uses it and something gets damaged or broken, do you think they walk in the door and at least tell me? No I find out about it when I pull it inside and do a quick check so that it's ready for the next customer. I have two people who may never borrow my car again. Lets just say they would never have tolerated their car to be returned to them in the same condition that they brought mine back, and they didn't even have the dececeny to say anything.

Funny you should mention a flying club hpm..

A few years back I got to join a flying club and accomplished one of my goals in life. If it wasn't for strict rules they wouldn't survive because the equipment would be constantly damaged and the repairs would eat them alive. The "average" consumer IMO would find those rules and requirements too inconvenient for them to accept for them to just use a car. Sadly when everything tighted up in 2008 I had to put that dream on hold and I was only ten hours of cross country flights away from taking my final test for my private license. Maybe someday I'll get to try again.......There was only one better moment than the one when the tower cleared me to take off on my first solo, holding my daughter for the first time wins out by a wisker.

thecardoc3

I'm missing the partial part. There are no laws prohibiting a homeowner from doing any and all of their work on their own home

Are you certain about this? I'll bide my time, lets see if anyone can think of some things that they cannot do themselves, because they would NOT be allowed to.

stever

I trenched new electrical to my house one time. Did it all but the utility had to come out and hook up the meter to the house and the other end to the service in the alley. Put in a gas stove at my latest house and paid the plumber since I'm lousy at soldering. Even he had to get the gas company to do the hookup though.

Doing your own work doesn't necessarily excuse you from the permitting and planning process but plenty of people put up garages or decks using a "plan" scribbled on the proverbial napkin. The guy who bought my last house put in a tall retaining wall. No idea if he went by the book, but in that hillside area, you were supposed to submitted drawings with an engineer's stamp for retaining walls over 3' high.

Lots of people skip the permits of course, but that can cause insurance and new financing issues.

Just like repairing cars. Screw something up and you may get sued, whether you are your own mechanic or whether you hire a pro.

qbrozen

Well, there is certainly a difference between being "allowed" to and just doing it. This may vary by state, but I know I'm not "allowed" to run new outlets in my house, for instance. It is supposed to be done by a certified electrician and inspected by the town, etc. Do I just do it anyway? Yup.

Very rarely, when you go to sell the house, the inspection might reveal some of these modifications. Worst case scenario, the town makes you "undo" your changes.

robr2

Actually the laws to do work to your home are the permits you are supposed to pull.

Legally in MA, I can do anything to my house as long as I pull a permit and have it inspected with the exception of plumbing. Only licensed plumbers and gas fitters are allowed to work on those systems.

The thinking is that the town doesn't care if you burn your house down just don't mess with anything connecting to our water supply where you could screw it up for everybody.

qbrozen

Only licensed plumbers and gas fitters are allowed to work on those systems.

Right, this is what I'm talking about. I know at least some towns in NJ require a licensed electrician, so i've been told by my brother-in-law who works for a town government.

Mr_Shiftright

But ironically, you don't need a license of any kind to do a brake job on a school bus.

0patience

My state [Oregon] has no laws prohibiting any work by the homeowner.
Plumbing, gas lines, electrical or any of it. Although some municipalities may have some fine print on some of it, my county does not.
They do require permits and inspections and the county/state inspector must sign off on it. But all work may be done by the homeowner. There are no exceptions.
I have a LP/natural gas pipefitter license for work, but have checked about doing my gas lines on my house with the inspector and since my license isn't covered as a private construction license, as a homeowner, I am allowed to do the work. As long as it passes the inspection, there is no provisions that it must be by a licensed pipefitter.

thecardoc3

But ironically, you don't need a license of any kind to do a brake job on a school bus.

Nor to open a shop, or claim that you can do anything as a mechanic/technician. A few years back we had a guy who worked for the bus garage take a Dodge Caravan that the driver was reporting that the pedal went to the floor fail to properly test and inspect the system and sent the car back out which resulted in an accident and a fatality. He is currently sitting in jail basically for lying to the investigators but the real issue was and should have been he didn't even hold a licensce to inspect cars and here he was working with minimal supervision.

Currently the ONLY answer is for real technicians to get to earn the respect and recognition that their dedication and commitment to their craft truly deserves. That can't happen until the "consumer experts, and media" learn what the career really demands of it's people. They also have to understand and respect that we shouldn't have to apologize for needing to turn a profit in order to be able to invest in our people, and the equipment that the customers need us to have.

We always talk about raising the bar, and it really seems that in any other career such efforts to improve one's self would be lauded. Yet we on the other hand only find interfeerence and obstacles constantly placed in our way. You can find examples of what I am referring to on this website.

BTW, No-One wants licensing, it may seem hard to believe but it's true. Most feel the government would only take the fees and waste them, and because they would be afraid that there wouldn't be enough licensed techs (that would drive prices up) they would not put any real strength into the law anyway.

So again, ultimately this is going to come down to the consumer being properly educated about how the trade has evolved, and just how a true top tech/shop goes about their business. Currently IMO the media etc. are clueless about what is really the right way for shops to be operating. Once we get them to start recognizing what is right, then we can move forward at a better pace than we are right now.