Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

stever

Thanks for the "inside" scoop.

I think one solution would be to let techs plug cars into the net and let a central source handle the diagnosis. That would eliminate the need for every tech to own every scanner and all the software updates. If the manufacturers keep trying to limit the use of the software and tools to individual shops and not let tools or updates be shared or otherwise licensed for a reasonable price, then maybe legislation could force them to share.

Remote diagnostics of these kinds of issues would eliminate the need for other shops to physically get the car to an expert like you.

And we're already seeing cases where car computers get reflashed to improve driveablilty, things like reprograming shift points. There's no reason that software or firmware update can't be delivered to the car remotely (really no reason why a customer couldn't plug their car into their computer and update stuff, or let OnStar do it remotely).

thecardoc3

OK, had to cut that off to do the radio show. So quickly before I go back to wrenching this morning.

I mentioned that If I could use the tool instantaneously, I would only lose $1400 the first year, $2400 the second year, then $1000 a year from then on. The problem is, you don't use the tool instantaneously you have to spend real time to use it. That means the consumer is actuually paying for your time and not the tool with the amount the market allows us to charge.

Damn, that's not exactly right either, no matter what we charge, someone can grandstand and claim we are ripping the public off, "It should be Free!!!" they will exclaim. The hell with the details, they don't need to know any details to know what we should be charging!

This has all been one madhouse "Race To the Bottom" as one shop owner puts it. A small handful of technicians, shop owners have been carrying the trade with consumers, consumer advocates, and even other shops kicking and screaming all the way to where we are today and it isn't pretty.

GM's new GDI system is currently out of my price range, and so is Fords. Chrysler, forget about it my StarScan never made a single payment and it sits in the box wearing out the lithium battery, which reminds me I probably should plug it in today just to try and keep it from dying.

The Mastertech Toyota Software that I have is good through 2009 model year vehicles, some tmie in 2012 I will have to purchase TechStream Lite. At an investment of around $2800 without the laptop it isn't bad and will run for the entire first year. Then I'll just buy short term subscriptions on an as needed basis. You see I won't actually own it, I'm just paying for permission to use it. Honda I'm good on for now through 2011 model year and I can update that for 2012's. But it will be four or five years before one of them even comes through the door. By then I don't expect to be in business anymore. I saw the story on MSN about the family getting by on $50K a year. My wife and I have never made that much take home, EVER.
We have no retirement savings I'll work till they close the lid. Vacations? We did a trip to Toronto in 95 to see the Phantom of the opera and this year when I was teaching two classes in the midwest we closed the shop for the whole week and drove to do them instead of me just flying in and right back out.

That's the kind of committment that it has taken to do what we do, and to have the scan tools and software that we use for our customers. R2R supporters believe it's passage will make them capable of doing what a shop like mine can, without all of the expense and sacrificing that we have endured. It won't.

R2R supporters often still play the game and point fingers at someone like me and try and say we are ripping off the public with our pricing, you can see consumers do that, and others who work for this site as well. Now you get to see the reality of the other side, when we walk away from our shop there will be no-one to fill our shoes. The costs to do so is prohibitive. The tools that I have collected will sell for pennies on the dollar. The software and the scan tools will end up in a landfill. R2R supporters believe it will spare them of that fate, it won't.

Time for me to get back to work. Soon I'll stop posting on this site. For the moment its a little relief from the grind, but I have to get back to studying both for class preperation as well as for my own continuing education. Steve I told you nothing is free, someone pays for it somehow. Every second I spend writing is time that should be spent studying and I am actually hurting myself timewise in that regard. But some things needed said if anything is going to have a chance to change, so maybe all of this time hasn't been wasted. We will see.

thecardoc3

Remote diagnostics of these kinds of issues would eliminate the need for other shops to physically get the car to an expert like you.

And we're already seeing cases where car computers get reflashed to improve driveablilty, things like reprograming shift points. There's no reason that software or firmware update can't be delivered to the car remotely (really no reason why a customer couldn't plug their car into their computer and update stuff, or let OnStar do it remotely).

And when one of the modules onboard crash the data bus eliminating communication between them, then what?

thecardoc3

Remote diagnostics of these kinds of issues would eliminate the need for other shops to physically get the car to an expert like you.

You want to have OUR cake and eat it too right?

How would someone remain, let alone become that expert unless they routinely had the cars with those types of problems in front of them?

That kind of short sightedness is why the business model is a failure in the end. We are wrong for investing and doing things the right way.

Mr_Shiftright

You have to specialize these days. I just don't see shops that "fix whatever comes in the door" surviving much longer--at least not surviving while doing really quality work.

I have friends who run successful shops and they are all specialists---2, maybe 3 marques and that's it. Another shop I know combines body work + used car sales + general auto repair, and that seems to work because he has the luxury of picking and choosing which cars he wants to work on. His other businesses take up the slack.

I suppose the "general auto repair" will be left eventually to the big chain stores.

Another kind of specialization I've noticed is working on all types of cars, but specializing in WHAT you repair--that is, perhaps brakes and alignment and tires, for instance.

stever

And when one of the modules onboard crash the data bus

That happens now with personal computers. No communication. So you try getting in through the USB port or whatever OBDIII may include as a backup, instead of the online wifi or cell coverage. People have called for OBDIII to include telemetry.

If that fails, that's when the tech starts swapping parts out. If you're lucky it's just something that needs to be reseated; if not, you try a new mobo or video card or whatever. The other 99% of the time everything works as expected and you update and continue on your way.

thecardoc3

And when one of the modules onboard crash the data bus ??

That happens now with personal computers. No communication.

Personal computer, what's that $400? Average new car today, $25K?-$30K

So you try getting in through the USB port or whatever OBDIII may include as a backup,

This is done by hand, with a schematic, voltmeter/ohmmeter and an oscilloscope. You have to seperate the databus to identify the failed module, which in some cases can simly mean open a bus connector, and on others physically cut a splice in the harness.


If that fails, that's when the tech starts swapping parts out.

We can't do that. Show me a consumer who expects to pay for a part that didn't fix their car.

If you're lucky it's just something that needs to be reseated; if not, you try a new mobo or video card or whatever.

Apples---- Oranges.

The other 99% of the time everything works as expected and you update and continue on your way

This I might agree with, except we still have to deal with the fact that our equipment costs us the same whether we get to use it on fifty cars or just that one, and if it really is only one, that means we would have to charge a lot more than we do now, or else there was no sense in buying it in the first place.

stever

The whole car costs $30k, but it's still made up of systems. The difference these days is that the systems talk to each other.

There really aren't any discrete components on the modules anymore are there? You can solder in some new caps or something, but that's not cost effective. So you reseat the part, and if that does nothing, you bench test it, or put the suspect part in another car and see if it works, or you put a known good part in the car (and hope it doesn't get fried by something you missed in the car, lol).

The last technique is what people do when they pull a code at the auto parts store and figure it's the sensor that's bad, not some underlying problem. And sometimes that fixes the car.

OBDII defines standards for communicating with the vehicle. Maybe Right to Repair could be tweaked to open the architecture more.

thecardoc3

Your never going to get the manufacturers to agree on a single system. OBDII was never intended to be a diagnostic interface, it's an emissions platform.

Let me say this another way. OBDII is NOT about helping a technician perform diagnostics, and it never was intended to. While it carries some standards, that is not what it is all about. It is essentially an emissions inspection built into the car and Global OBDII capabilities can access that information.

Sure there are the global codes, which BTW is exactly what code pullers can access and there is specific global data which some manufacturers choose to add to, and others do as little as is allowed by law, intentionally. But when it actually comes to diagnosing and repairing problems, the manufacturers all write everything around their "proprietary system". Most of the European manufacturers even write their service manuals right into the scan tool software which is why you see things like "The manufacturer does not release information for XXXXXX system" Well they don't release it to Alldata, or Mitchell et al, but they do in fact release it, you just have to buy the O.E. tool to get it. R2R proponents think they can force the O.E's to un-marry that information from the scan tools and sell it seperately. But when all they can request is that we get to have the same information allegedly at the same cost to the dealership, that means it's available we just have to purchase the same O.E. tool that the dealership has to.

The part that everybody is missing is that all of the whining about costs are only serving to make these things more unaffordable for an aftermarket shop that is already struggling. Shiftright is correct about needing to specialize and it boils down to we don't have a choice other than to choose to buy the information and tools, or don't buy them. That is a business decision, pure and simple. The problem is aggravated by ignorance of these facts and the attempts to pin shops down to pricing that amounts to opinions out of thin air.

Steve, I was trying to make you go through that business planning excercise. Your refusal to do so, is of course your choice but it leaves you without the first hand knowledge of just what it really takes to do "what I do" and without that you will never know what we should really be charging. That essentially let's you perpetuate your opinion even though it has no legitimite basis. Now of course it's popular to simply claim we overcharge (no matter what we really charge) and from there we are wrong and you get to play the hero.

Many times you hear the phrase "Fair Pricing". Define fair. Does fair equal "Cheaper to Me"? Does "Fair" mean if its cheaper it's fairer? How does one do things cheaper if they are spending more and more money each year just to prevent themselves from being "locked out" of doing complete repairs? Or are they in fact turning a blind eye to that requirement, skimming the gravy off of the top and essentially running themselves out of business in the next ten years (or less)

Are they maybe choosing to only do the easiest work? Slam those brake pads and ignore the ABS, TCS, lights that are on?

I'm not picking on you Steve, your just doing what you have seen others do who are every bit as uneducated about trying to run a small repair business today. Everytime I turn around there is yet another attack towards the trade spouting the same old stereotypes and never any rebuttal, nor even an attempt to truly shed a light on the subject.

None of your work around attempts mentioned in the last few responses have any basis in the real demands for technicians to repair the level of problems that the computerized systems are capable of exposing us to. Instead of trying to associate what you don't know to a guess about what someone might do as you did above maybe you should sit in on some classes and see how we are really teaching today's senior technicians to approach these repairs. You see I'm not only a full time technician, who really does this work I am a writer and an instructor who is helping other technicians work to be everything their customers needs IN SPITE OF THE EFFORTS FROM MANY OUTSIDE SOURCES WHO ONLY WANT TO MAKE THEIR OWN LIVING BY SLANDERING TECHNICIANS JMHO....

I suppose that is the biggest problem, the witch hunts that take place actually serve to hurt the consumers, because they hurt the shops and technicians through the continued use of outdated stereotypes. Now sure someone can run around and snap photo's of and do traps on the dinosaurs in the trade. But when they fail to tell the whole story and only grandstand a single facet they in fact should be seen as doing a disservice. But no, they get to pretend to be the hero's and everybody applauds their efforts. Meanwhile guys like me out here take that kick in the gut, and have to pick ourselves back up and struggle on against the rush of technology.
Really doing what we do the right way isn't something you can effectively judge from a distance unless you first know what it took for us to even be there, and that's been changing so fast you cannot even find a consensus on that inside the trade!

I represent the kind of shop/technician that is doing everything we can to be professional, educated, equipped, and of course simply there for the consumers that need us. The kind of shop that has been preparing for what the customer needs us to be tomorrow as well as today.

With 35 years experince and having had a habit of studying more than you would ever imagine (more than 20 hours a week) I actually have more study ahead of me than I have behind me today. A little over a decade ago I could work on all makes, and all models today the Big Seven is starting to get to be too much to keep pace with both from the volume of information as well as the cost associated to try and do so.

You have several times tried to assert that if a person has symptom "X", then someone should be able to tell them essentially to replace part "Y". If you take time to really read you will see my responses are different than many of the typical ones. I know that there can be multiple reasons for many observed sysmptoms (trouble codes) and the best that can be done is to talk as much about what needs to be done in order to prove what the problem could be as to simply say what the problem could be. The practice of simply tossing parts by anybody needs itself to be tossed. If Edmunds was truly tring to help the consumer, that is what they should be getting told, how to test and diagnose. Guesses don't belong here in any fashion anymore (they really never did).

stever

Steve, I was trying to make you go through that business planning excercise

We can do it here. I just have to catch my breath and get caught up on some other stuff. :shades:

0patience

I tried to stay away from this one. I really did.
Anything said now would just start a battle and I'm not that interested in dealing with that.

I just bought the IDS/VCM/VMM program last summer for $2800 from Ford. Updates will run me about $800/year, so the costs are coming down. Granted, that was a fleet cost, so the actual indy retail cost may be a bit more, but I can't see it being a lot more.

I'm bothered by the "incompetence" comments. I prefer to say that they lack proper education, which is part of the problem with today's industry.
Not only does today's tech need to be properly educated, but today's consumer needs to be properly educated. Once educated, then they will understand how the system works and why it needs to be repaired or replaced.

To chastise a consumer for asking if a repair price is out of line is a bit over the top. They ask, because they don't know. Educating the consumer goes further to making them understand. The problem is that when a person purchases a vehicle, they hand them the keys and send them out the door without really going over the systems of the vehicle. The consumer is then left to their own devices to "learn" how to operate the vehicle. To me, that is a poor way to do business.

Today's vehicles are quite complex and the fact that you see so many questions about what the dash indicator light means and such, indicates that the consumer spends zero time being educated on what does what.
This is something that the industry needs to change. Blaming the consumer really doesn't work, as it starts with the people selling the vehicle. I realize that if they actually spent time going over the vehicle, it would mean less sales, but it needs to be done.

I've seen a lot of successful repair facilities and the ones who seem to have the most loyal customers tend to be the ones who spend the time to educate the consumer on why a repair is necessary and what can be done to prevent it.

If automotive would take their model from commercial vehicles, it would probably be a much better system. Most, if not all current commercial trucks have onboard dash displayed diagnostics. In a lot of instances, this information can be sent to the fleet facility to start diagnostics on the vehicle. The driver can toggle through a large number of parameters right from the dash's diagnostic switch. This is something that commercial trucks are years ahead of automotive in.

thecardoc3

The IDS2 is coming out as we speak. Back when I purchased my IDS it was $4800 plus the laptop. Add in 7 years of updates and what do you get?

I agree with most everything else that you said, the consumer does need to be more educated about their vehicles, but instead of concentrating on that all we see are Mr. Reed's with the TV networks types of stories. Which BTW is why I visited here in the first place.

Consumers as described by one shop owner ask price first most of the time because they don't know what else to ask, and also because that's what consumer "experts" have told them to do. If someone needs taken to task for that kind of advice it's the self proclaimed experts.

In 1986 GM had the entire scan tool engineered into the top of the line vehicles. Most of the Cadillac's, Buick Riviera, Oldsmobile Regency, could each be used to access trouble codes, scan data and even bi-directional controls right through the buttons for the climate control. They pulled that capability back out of the cars by the time OBDII came around.

As far as the difference between incompetence, and a lack of education, one of those can be dealt with through continuing education, what should we call it for those who refuse to go to classes?

Your right about one thing, we don't need any more battles our plates are quite full with the ones we have to deal with already. What other O.E. tools do you or your shop have?

0patience

As far as the difference between incompetence, and a lack of education, one of those can be dealt with through continuing education, what should we call it for those who refuse to go to classes?
I wish I had an answer for this one. One of the reasons that I see that some techs don't go to classes is lack of money. Whether it be from their lack of money or their employer's lack of money, I don't know. But it seems to be one of the main excuses for lack of training. I live in a rural area, so a lot of times, the training is 100 miles away, but I make it a point to go to what I can. If the training is available and they still refuse to go, then I would think they would be better suited in some other industry.
You cannot stay on top of the game in this industry and NOT have the training. It just doesn't work. There is a good comparison to today's computers and today's vehicles. They change faster than you can keep up.
Not keeping up, means you get left behind in the dirt.

Don't get me wrong. There are some bad apples in the industry (the parts changers) that give techs a bad name and until the consumer is educated properly, it will be hard to change that image.

What other O.E. tools do you or your shop have?
Our main facility has mostly the OEM scan tools for the makes of vehicles/equipment we have.
I have the IDS, DRB3, GM Tech2, Volvo heavy truck VCADS, Cummins Insite, CAT diagnostics and the Snap-On Solus. Plus an assortment of OBD2 scantools and programs that I test out for various companies.
The technology is moving fast and there are a lot of good scantools available in the aftermarket. Comparing some (low budget) them to the OEM is not a good comparison, because that isn't what most of them are designed to be. In a lot of instances, they should be considered "enhanced" code readers, but they will give enough information to make a quick diagnosis.
And folks need to be educated that trouble/fault codes DO NOT mean to replace anything, but that the system/circuit has a problem. Once we can get folks (and some techs) to understand that, the trek to improving the image of this industry will go far.

Money drives everything. So consumers are "geared" towards asking how much first. So educating the consumer should be a priority.
I've seen tons of "info-mercials" on certain code readers that profess to do a lot more than they are capable of doing and that is something that needs to be change. One even says that it will tell you what to replace.
Which kills me. I have said a hundred times that codes DO NOT tell you what to replace, but what circuit has a problem. This is a prime example of how the industry needs to change it's view.

thecardoc3

It's easy to recognize the good techs and shops, if we did a class on cleaning battery terminals, they would be there. Wednesday I'll be in St Mary's Pa. doing a kick off event to try and get a training region started. We do those for "free". In otherwords, I will close my shop, travel and pay for the night in a hotel out of my own pocket to try and make it happen. Thursday I'll drive to Palmerton Pa and do a Vehicle Security class as a stand alone in order to try and start a region there. At least that one will bring in some money for expenses. Then I'll be right back home and wrenching until I run out of things to do. I expect my next day off will be Christmas, and it's been since Thanksgiving since I had my last day off.

Heavy truck stuff, yuck you can keep it. Now in my mid 50's the physical damage to my body through the years is getting to be more noticeable all of the time. There are many things which are simply getting to be too heavy, and I pay for it with aches and pains when I strain to wrestle with them.

That is an impressive list of tools, just imagine what it must be like for anyone trying to run without them. Being a one man show has made this aspect of the business problematic for me, but also being a one man show I was free to try and choose my fate. I have the Tech II, Tech 1 (Mastertech, which also accounts for some of the other O.E. tools) NGS and IDS for Fords, DRBIII and StarScan for Chrysler, Honda HDS (and the Mastertech) Toyota (Mastertech), Then I have the Vedis, Hannatech Ultrascan, Snap-On Solus (fully loaded), and a Genysis which I use for demonstrations, Vag Com for VW Audi, and EscanPlus... I think that's all of them..... Mercifully I'm only still making payments on two of them and will pay them off late next year.

But that means I have some decisions to make. The GM GDS platform replaces the TechII. My Toyota stops at 2009, so that means Techstream lite is on my radar, I already mentioned the upgrade for Ford the IDS2, and Chrysler well I just don't know what to do with them. My StarScan never made a single payment for itself. I just can't picture buying the WiTech and suppose I'll have to take those vehicles off of my list of supported manufacturers. Honda is rumored to be coming out with a new tool as well. If I'm still wrenching in three years when those cars are coming out of warranty I may have to consider that one.

With the Techstream Lite, which uses a Mongoose Cable, I could do more J2534 flashing.

The people on the outside don't realize just what kind of an expense that tool list I just outlined really is. They also don't see me diagnosing the blown headgasket in a Jeep Liberty a couple weeks back, that I felt I had no choice but to send away both from a time standpoint, as well as not having the special tools that are required to deal with the timing chains. I felt bad for the dealer tech assigned the job. He called me after trying to diagnose it, and hadn't found anything wrong. They never told him it only misfired right after first starting for about twenty seconds and then ran fine the rest of the day. I had him grab his emissions machine and measure for exhaust gasses in the coolant system, and then he knew he was good to tear the thing down. Then I find out from the owner, she got the car back the next day. With 130K on it they didn't send the heads out to be serviced, it didn't even get new valve seals.

I should have spent the money for the tools and done it myself..... :sick:

The thing here is I don't blame the technician, he is doing what he gets told to do, and doing that extra to strip the heads and send them out, then wait for them to come back probably costs him labor time. Somtimes they are so worried about price, they stop short of everything they should be doing only to set the customer up for a subsequent failure. That's my definition of Newton's Third law applied to business again. The action of treating them like they overcharge results in them purposefully making decisions that make them less expensive which ultimately causes them to not reccomend things that they should have.

0patience

I work fleet, so it is easy for me to say, this needs to be done or that needs to be done to have the job done right the first time. When I worked in a retail shop, in the early 80s, the service writer and mechanics would have a "failure to communicate".

Half of the recommendations would never make it to the customer. Which never made sense to me. Or they would make the estimate lower than it could possibly be done for. Then it was the mechanic's fault, because the mechanic should have foreseen those problems.

I advocate the right to repair, because I work for a fleet and the manufacturers fight us tooth and nail to provide the OEM information to us. Even though some of them entered into an agreement or contract to do so. I can just imagine an indy shop trying to make ends meet with all of the stuff out there.
While even the heavy trucks aren't "on the same page" with their programming, they at least have the foresight to provide diagnostics from the driver's seat. Which in many cases, saves the fleet thousands of dollars.

Heavy trucks have fault codes that are, in my opinion, far more descriptive.
Most sensors on the heavy truck have a specific fault number for open circuit, shorted circuit, out of range, etc. Which makes it real handy sometimes. I had one truck that the crankcase pressure sensor (don't see that one in many automotive applications) was giving a fault for below threshold, which shuts the engine down to an idle. Meaning the value wasn't there. The driver called, had him unplug and recheck the codes. Active code changed to an open circuit fault, which told me the circuit was good and having known issues with the sensor, I was able to pull a new sensor from the shelf, run out to the truck, replace and send it on it's way.

If automotive programming was more like heavy truck, diagnostics would be far more accurate. But then again,some of the heavy truck faults will shut an engine down to limp mode, idle or if not dealt with, will shut the engine down.
I don't think the general consumer would like it too much if there were a problem and it shut the engine down.

The problem is, that there needs to be something to streamline the whole diagnostics industry and none of the manufacturers seem to be inclined to go the way they need to go. Personally, I don't like govt getting involved in it, but until they voluntarily find a common programming, then it may come to that. It's seems odd that Microsoft was blasted for monopolizing their programming, because they made it proprietary, but the automotive manufacturers are able to do what they weren't supposed to be allowed to do.

OBD2, when CAFE first started to go on about it, was supposed to be OPEN SOURCE, but after it hit the manufacturers, it quickly became not so much.
It's amazing how fast they were able to knock that idea out.
I'll admit that a portion of it is considered open source, it's pretty evident that most of the pertinent information isn't.

Now remember, this is just my opinion.

thecardoc3

I don't support R2R. The tools that are supposed to be unavailable, are available. I get every piece of repair information and software that I have ever needed. Now some can say "But it isn't affordable" To that I'll respond well yes it is but you likely cannot have all of it and you have to choose what you want to work on. Most shops would easily choose to not have the tools for the heavy trucks like yours does. You on the other hand would have little need for some of the small Asain imports that I do, which is why I have the Hannatech scan tool.

R2R is a parts bill, it won't fix any of the other issues that we deal with. Offshore parts manufacturers want the software and testing proceedures that are needed for them to "certify" that their parts will meet the O.E's standard. Name one thing that a dealer tech has today, that you cannot get.

You said you have to fight the manufacturers tooth and nail for information. Have you ever filed a report with NASTF? www.NASTF.org

NASTF came about because at one time everyone supported a legislative solution to what was then a real problem. Congress didn't want to have to pass the legislation and the FTC wanted no parts of attempting to administrate it if they had. So they looked at both sides and ordered both sides to come to a mutual agreement to solve the problems we were facing. That created NASTF. NASTF again was created under the oversight of Congress. For the O.E's to not live up to the agreement made, they would be in direct defiance of Congress. Legislation would then not only be necessary but easy and wouldn't be tying up milliions of dollars that could be used elsewhere.

Now you know that they are trying to get this on the ballot in Mass? It looks like they may just succeed, and from there New Jersey will likely fall right in behind them. Exactly what do you think it will be like if R2R became law and the O.E's decided to fight instead of play nicely?

First you'd have to encounter a situation where you had a need for information that you couldn't find or get. Then you'd send a complaint off through what ever process is designed to address this. That's where the FTC is involved. Do you know how long it normally takes them to adress and rule on an issue? About six months on average, so they rule in your favor and the O.E decides to appeal. It could be another year for that to be solved.

The law has provisions to punish the O.E's if they withold information. Tell me, exactly where does the O.E. get the money from which they would have to pay the fines? Why ultimately the consumer. They don't want that but will go that route if forced to. But there is yet another stumbling block.

The law says that the manufactuers have to release information for any vehicles that they sell in the state, if a manufacturer is so dead set against releasing the information that the parts manufacturers want, exactly what choice could they make? They could choose to stop selling cars in that state. Remember the law subjects the to fines which would drive up the prices of their cars, the law is powerless if they don't sell cars there.

Usually about now someone's opposing argument would start off like "I don't think......" I believe they better start thinking....The O.E's are dead set against this legislation and they will fight it in every way imaginable. The passage of the legislation is our side going back on the agreement that was made under congresses direction. The O.E's will at that point have every right to completely stop everything that they do presently in working with us. We would then be able to sue them over it but how many of us will last 5 or 10 years while everything wrangles out in court? I know I won't. Who would get the settlements should there be any? The lawyers and the corporations who "own" the lawyers will, we won't. This will get very ugly before we ever get back to what we have right now, if that ever happens. The legislation WILL make things worse than they are now, not better.

thecardoc3

Send me your email addy. I send you a copy of my Discipline Discouraged. Or else go to my shops website and read it there .

http://www.gillespiesauto.com/index.html

It's on my articles page.

0patience

Well, I agree with a lot of what was written. It is a good example of how the manufacturer drives the diagnostics.
It also is a good example of why I work fleet and not retail.
I don't believe in replacing parts without proper diagnosis. I've run into way too many instances where parts were replaced, only to later find a connector, hose or wire problem.

Because I work fleet, the ultimate end result has to be that the vehicle is fixed. Time becomes a secondary factor in the repair. If it takes an extra half an hour to fix the problem properly and it saves an hour of the vehicle coming back, then money is saved. Cost effective is a key word in fleet. Not so much in retail.

stever

I'm a bit more caught up if you're still around Doc.

OBDII can be used for diagnostics regardless of why the standard was initially created. So could an emissions wand. It's another tool.

Business planning - you have to charge enough to pay for your overhead (including those tools) and leave enough for a salary, benefits, retirement savings, etc. But, you can't charge what you are worth if the market won't bear the price. If you are an independent shop and you charge as much or more than a dealer, then there has to be something else you offer to convince me to go to you. A shuttle service, longer warranty on the repair, better donuts in the waiting room, something. Or maybe I hate the dealer so much that I'd rather go to anyone but. And lots of people will chose an independent shop for the same price, thinking it's better to still with the "little guy" and thinking that the little guy will be less likely to recommend that needless work be done. But there's still plenty of gripes about independents. And the price can't be much more than the dealer.

I had a mechanic uncle who cherry-picked business. He specialized in starter/alternator repair and after he got established, he mostly limited his work to a few commercial trucking companies (and they pulled the starters and dropped them off) . Other guys I knew did auto electronics (that was back in the 80s) and I used to take my '82 Tercel to a lone wolf who tried to limit his shop to fixing Volvos. He threw in the towel after two years. Even dealer shops have problems keeping up within their model line (think Liberty CRDs when your shop has no techs who've ever wrenched on diesels).

It's not a witch hunt, it's what the market will bear. Manufacturers started doing "self diagnostics" with the key codes (or before?) and it's going to continue. Like Microsoft and its Fix It solution center, it's not far fetched to have the cars spit out diagnostic stuff to the tech, and the tech may be in Detroit or Taipei. And the fix may be a software or firmware update. And indicator lights and scan results need to get changed from "P4xx" with a brief phrase to sometime more detailed.

Right now when an O2 code is thrown, on most cars you don't know whether it's the upstream or downstream sensor throwing the code, much less have enough information to tells you why it's throwing the code. Why take an hour to get your car to the tech when you can have the car dial it in? (as is already happening, per 0patience and his commercial truck example).

Every field requires continuing education if you want to stay on top of the game.

Swapping parts isn't necessarily bad, assuming you know which part is bad, and why it went bad (no swapping sensors out unless you know the sensor itself is bad). If there's a bad circuit on a part, it's not cost effective to isolate and fix it. You could sent the part in and a bench tech maybe could fix a pile of them and make money that way, but that's not going to happen in a dealer shop.

Expand and open up the codes and the techs and d-i-y guys will all benefit.

thecardoc3

Well after that, I really don't know where to start. Anyone who believes as you do has no reason to ever expect a consumer should be able to find a technician trained and equipped to service their car. I guess that's why you don't realize the value in correct advice when the right answer is for a consumer is to see a pro. Maybe that's why your so much into free answers, again you don't have a feeling for just what it takes to gain the kind of experience and knowledge to be a top technician today.

You also don't recognize the dire straights the trade is in because the market won't bear the expense required to get the techs to enough schools, and to invest in the O.E. tools. Again the people who support R2R think closely along some of the lines as you do, techs are a dime a dozen, there is no real talent required to be a mechanic/technician, anyone can do it. They think that a scan tool tells the tech what is wrong with the car etc. etc.

Even your example of the O2 sensor and not knowing which sensor "circuit" is causing a code is factually incorrect. The codes are clearly descriptive enough to not only properly identify which sensor, and but which sub-circuit for the sensor has an issue. But not enough to say what's wrong specifically, a technician still has to test and prove that.

A computer can monitor a circuit that it controls. Lets use the jelly solenoid circuit for our example. Power is supplied to the Jelly solenoid through a fuse in the fuse block, the computer supplies a ground to the circuit to dispense the jelly. When the solenoid is turned off, the computer constantly measures the voltage on the solenoid circuit. It should be at system voltage. When the solenoid is turned on, the computer should measure close to 0v because of the voltage drop across the solenoid when current is flowing. In the event there is a circuit failure the computer knows this because it would measure either voltage on the wire, when it should be at 0v when the solenoid should be turned on, or no voltage on the wire when it should be at system voltage, as when the solenoid is turned off. That's all it can do, to the computer if the solenoid is turned off and the voltage should be high, it cannot tell the difference between the fuse being blown, the solenoid being unplugged, or the wire between the solenoid broken or grounded. All of those result in the voltage being low, when it should be high. So the computer generates a fault code for the circuit open/short.

Unless you want to run multiple detection point wires the computer has no way to measure beyond it's connector, so all of this left up to the technicians to test for and solve. Now this example is simplified, but 100% accurate in it's representation of how the computer would set a trouble code. Just swapping the jelly solenoid is exactly what you should be preaching against, not supporting! The reason is, the opposite condition, where the voltage is high, when it should be low could be a bad computer, that might be $1000 or more, and it could easily have another cause such as too much current flow and the driver inside the computer shutting itself down as it limits current flow but has no way to tell the microprocessor that this has occurred.

With training, every technician should be able to explain this one trouble code generation routine. In fact they should be able to explain all of the different routines that the system runs that generate failure codes. That kind of knowledge reduces mistakes, and has real value for the consumer and that's what we bring to the table, real value.

I came here because I saw a tendency for this orgnization to try and devalue service technicians, you are doing just that with your post here, trying every way that you can to make what we do "worth less". Cars are machines, loaded with robotics, and today are among the most complex devices man has ever created. It takes training, skill, and decades of experience to be a good technician.

stever

And yet, sometimes an 02 sensor simply fails, and getting one at AutoZone, after they've pulled the code, can get you back on the road.

But if the manufacturers hide the sensor information from the generic scanners, then you'll be out of luck (or out of pocket), as will the d-i-y owner.

I "build" my own computers but if something gets flaky, I'll likely not be able to explain to you why I can get it going again, other than saying I reseated a board, or rolled back the software or flashed the BIOS. But I can get it running again without any background in the theory. The solution is either revealed by running a diagnostic program, searching the net for other people who have had the problem and trying their solution or swapping parts.

If none of the above work, then I could send it in for service. But I'm going to try the other stuff first. Maybe if I didn't have a spare computer (like my spare car), I'd be under the gun to get a real tech to have first dibs on it. But since I have spares, I have time to nose around and see if there's a fix I can handle on my own.

My van's heater fan stopped working on all speeds except "4" three months ago. 90% of the solutions offered on the net involve replacing the blower resistor. A few days for the part to get here from RockAuto, a little discomfort crawling under the dash (I'm not getting any younger either), undoing two screws, swapping the part, and I have all fan speeds again.

Why should I pay someone $80 just to diagnose that, much less to fix it, when I can get the part for $47 and take my chances? We need good techs, but not for everything.

Mr_Shiftright

This debate reminds me of the same one being aired presently in the field of medicine. The doctors warn people not to self-treat themselves and to stay away from 'quacks"---sometimes this is GREAT advice---but, on the other extreme, trusting everything a doctor says, questioning nothing, not participating in your own treatment-----well, that can also lead to bad results.

I personally do not see why a *better informed* car owner is necessarily a threat to the professionalism and livelihood of auto technicians.

After all, the role of better diagnostic systems might not be to show the car owner how to fix something, but only to tell him more about what's going on

auto technicians can't be a priesthood in the modern age, with secret language and ritualistic tools. They have to find a way to fit comfortably into the information age.

stever

My wife got an insect bite camping on the last road trip. We researched the bite and figured it was the classic bullseye of Lyme Disease from a tick. At the ER a bit later, the doc on duty got on his computer and pulled up the same Google image that we had found, agreed with our "diagnosis" and prescribed some antibotics. :shades:

My GP is two hours away and we communicate by email if I need something between visits. Haven't had to email her a pic or video or a mp3 of my cough, but I could see that coming. I don't think I want to get into the Japanese toilet seats that measure everything from BP to potassium levels.

0patience

I don't think anyone is de-valuing techs at all and I don't think that if the information was available, it would devalue the need for properly trained techs. The heavy truck industry is a prime example. There is a lot of diagnostic information available from the driver's seat of a commercial truck, yet qualified, experienced, trained mechanics are in great demand in the heavy truck industry. Granted, down time is money lost to these folks, but it still shows that regardless of how much information is available from the driver's seat, someone still has to test things out and properly diagnose things.

Use the charging/starting system for example. Up until a few years back, remained relatively unchanged for decades. Yet, the need for quality diagnostic equipment and knowledge has remained relatively high. Even though, up until years ago when the computer took over, the systems were pretty simplistic, there were still a lot of electrical specialized shops. Even today, those shops are usually busier than ever.

No matter what the industry thinks, there are going to be people who are going to do their own work. It is how the world has always worked.
You can do your own electrical work on your house, yet electricians must be licensed to work on your house, the same goes for plumbing.
As long as parts are available, there will be people who will do their own work. Those people will never go to a shop until they have exhausted all their own efforts. And even then, some will keep trying on their own.

I've heard discussions from techs who have made comments about wanting techs to be licensed, so that the DIYer wouldn't be able to work on their own vehicle. But it won't work that way. The DIYer will be allowed to work on their own personal vehicle, the same as you are allowed to work on your own electrical and plumbing. That cannot be prevented and if it is tried, will probably push the envelope of distrust towards techs. Understanding how people (the consumers) think will go far towards a successful business.

0patience

It's funny you mention that. They've already started live video feed in some hospitals for specialists and patients. The ER doc or GP would move the camera to where they want the specialist to see and the specialist would give the recommendation from where ever in the world they are.

Some of the newer commercial trucks have data streaming to the repair facility. While it isn't live video, it can tell a lot about what is going on with the vehicle. Add picture/video messaging through the cell phone and in some cases, I've even sent recordings of a specific noise to someone to see what they thought. Utilizing the technology that is available is huge.

stever

For the rest of us, there's YouTube. :shades:

(Village health aides do telemedicine like you're talking about in the Alaskan bush).

thecardoc3

And yet, sometimes an 02 sensor simply fails, and getting one at AutoZone, after they've pulled the code, can get you back on the road.

Then two weeks later when we are re-diagnosing the car correctly, we remove that sensor because the current flow through the heater circuit is incorrect and the PCM was misinterpreting the low current as a sensor that is at full operating temperature, so it was decreasing the heater ontime resulting in the sensor cooling off and turning off.

We could go back and forth on this forever, the problem is I'm all about having better trained and equipped technicians for the consumer, and you by your own words are against that. You don't see that continually trying to lower the bar is the worst thing ultimately for the consumer. For an organization to portrait themselves as advocates for the consumer, and then turn around and take a position that clearly serves to make getting it right the first time less likely is beyond reason.

You cannot compare poor work habits that you might take with your own equipment to taking a professional approach. Even then you have to hedge the fact that you might not achieve success with your guesses, but they don't have the responsibility that we do where someone could be stranded along some road.

I've been trying to think of a way to be PC and still say this, but there really isn't a way to do it, so...... Your examples represent the kind of incompetence that any consumer who was in a positon to need to pay for "your services" should be very upset over. That's the difference between our perspectives. I have to keep the consumer in perfect focus for everything that we do, and that whether you like it or not puts price way down the list of things to be considered. Attempting to pull it towards the top of the list only serves to dissapoint the consumer and that is what has been wrong with this trade for decades.

No where do we ignore price, it is always important to be as efficient as possible, and deliver real value. The things you pressed as reasonable by your argument would be overpriced if they were free, and they wouldn't even be a good value if you paid people to let you try.

Mr_Shiftright

Your argument, while persuasive, would hold more weight than it actually does if, in fact, it could be shown that licensed trained mechanics outperform DIYers across the board; but the level of DIS-satisfaction with dealer service, and with many "repair" shops, indicates that outward displays of licensing and training and piles of fancy equipment have not served to win the trust of many consumers.

I submit to you that an uncomfortable percentage of repair shops ARE, in fact, DIYers themselves!

stever

From a consumer standpoint, let's say a new car costs, oh, $25,000. And let's say we take the new car to the dealer while the 5/60 drivetrain warranty is in effect and we wind up mostly paying for oil changes, brake pads and tires during that time. Assume that nothing else goes wrong that isn't covered by warranty (cars are way more reliable these days).

Okay in 5 or 6 years, you have a car with 60,000 miles on it, no warranty, and it may be worth $10,000 after all that depreciation. But it's probably going to be okay for another 3 or 4 years.

At 10 years of age and 100,000 miles, you are looking at timing belts and plugs. That's okay, even though the car is now worth perhaps $6,000. But what if the transmission goes? You can't really justify putting a $6,000 transmission in a $6,000 car.

Well you can, and you might, if the car is otherwise running well and you don't have $25,000 in your pocket to buy a new car.

So where do you draw the line? $6,000 may be too much but is $1,500 too much for that preventative timing belt and water pump? Or it could cost $1,500 for the O2 sensors and, say, a catalytic converter.

But if I can keep my car running for $80 by taking the parts guy's advice and simply replacing the sensor - well, that's the economic thinking the shop is going to be up against. Why throw a bunch of good money after bad, especially if you are afraid that something else is just going to go wrong?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't mind taking my car in to get fixed because I know that it'll be fixed first time every time and done right. This level of confidence in the shop I deal with somewhat deters me from doing most of my own repairs; HOWEVER, even in this case I want the information so I can dialogue with the shop, and perhaps explore alternatives (e.g., do we go new or used; can we fix rather than replace; are there updates to the component; should we be doing something else while we're in there?; what happens if the shop is wrong, etc).

robr2

It'a all about perspective.

I know somebody with a 99 A8 with well over 200K on it. Every quarter or so, he'll drop $1K into it for repairs and maintenance.

He looks at it as follows: A car payment is $500 a month. As long as he spends less than that, he's ahead of the game.

stever

Well, that works okay, so long as you aren't getting stranded, as Thecardoc3 mentions.

And that assumes you have a good mechanic that you can trust too. They are getting more rare it seems, at any price.

Mr_Shiftright

Well this brings up the question that nobody much likes to ask (but I will): :P

If you are intelligent enough and physically strong enough to repair today's modern automobiles with a high degree of success, what are you doing fixing cars for a living in a retail shop environment?

0patience

I have to ask about this comment (in italics);

You cannot compare poor work habits that you might take with your own equipment to taking a professional approach. Even then you have to hedge the fact that you might not achieve success with your guesses, but they don't have the responsibility that we do where someone could be stranded along some road.
Are we to assume that you refer to these folks as having poor work habits?
That is the way it comes across. As someone who verses themselves as a "trainer", you should know that this is probably one of the worst things you could do. It comes across as "talking down" and to be honest, a person, especially a trainer, should never make that mistake.
Some comment come across as it is the consumer AGAINST the repair shops. If that is the case, then that stance will kill a business. Even when I worked retail repair shops, there were many customers that did a lot of their own work. Did it affect profits? Not in the least. In fact, some of them were our best customers. They knew their limitations.

You have to remember that as mechanics/techs, we are in the service industry and provide a service. Should we not provide that service appropriately, then the customer will go somewhere else. At the time that we become so full of ourselves, it will reflect upon our attitude towards the customers. I've seen it dozens of times and seen many shops come and go.
They got to the point where they decided that the customer won't tell them what they are going to do and their customer base dwindled.

A famous saying is...........A stupid question is only the question that does not get asked. So, when a customer asks you a question about a repair or what is wrong with their vehicle, how do you respond?
Think about that question the next time you are dealing with a customer and ask yourself it it could possibly come across as condescending or talking down. Every once of us at one time or another is guilty of it.

There have been several occasions where a customer has asked me how much something will cost and when I tell them, kind of freak out. But when I explain what is involved in it, the diagnostics, what needs to come apart and all of that, their tone changes. Even the folks who ask how to replace something, will often decide that a shop is better suited to do the repair, when they find out what all is really involved.
As I've stated hundreds of times. Educating the consumer properly will go further than just about anything. We can't do anything about the costs of parts and repairs, but we can help the consumer understand why those costs are there.

stever

I think you meant to reply to Thecardoc3.

Re your "best customers" comment, I think this is where AutoZone reaped a lot of good will and profit, and this is where the dealers are falling down. If you provide a lot of free information (free pulling of codes at the parts store), then many people will buy those parts from you.

If the dealers offered free diagnostics (or even reduced the fee to $20) and banned service writers from working on commission, customers could find out what was likely wrong with their car and could decide if it was something they could do themselves.

Most will just have the work done while they are there, but they'll feel better about the diagnosis. Some simple stuff will get fixed "free". Some customers will shop the quote around but that's okay. They'll figure out soon enough that the dealer was being honest in their assessment and word will get around.

Of course this requires that the dealer look beyond next week's profit and loss statement and hires good techs to do the diagnosing (but hey, I can dream).

If an indy shop could afford to do this, the lines would be out the door and around the corner. Be a great hook for a franchise company too.

0patience

I'll give you an example of a recent experience I had.
I was at a local high quality repair shop a few weeks back. (They do overflow work for me) A customer came in and asked about a trouble code and what to replace. Replace nothing was the reply, which I liked. But it was an EVAP code and the shop owner gave the guy a list of things (obvious things anyone can check) to check and see if they were the problem. When I asked why he went to the lengths to help the guy out and didn't just tell him they'd have to look at it, his reply was that this guy will do his own work 75% of the time, regardless of whether he gets the help or not. It's those 25% of the time that he takes it to a shop, he will remember who it was that was on his side.

So, since the vehicle was one that I had plenty of experience on and knew of some hidden EVAP hoses that were historically problems, I told the shop owner about them. He immediately called the "customer" and told him to check them too.

So why would he go out of his way? That customer will remain loyal to that shop, even though the customer does a lot of his own work. Is that customer an inconvenience? Depends on how you look at it. If you can afford to shoo away customers, then I suppose those types can be.

People often under-estimate the power of word of mouth. It can build a business or destroy it.

0patience

Yup, I did.
Got going on too many different things.

stever

Thecardoc3 has a radio show, so he must doing a lot of that (in addition to helping people on Edmunds Answers).

thecardoc3

I did also write that I was searching for a PC way to say that, but being in a rush decided on just setting it down there. Sometimes you can sweet talk all day only to find out the other person is so blinded by their desires that anything short of grabbing their arm and tugging a little doesn't get them to stop talking long enough to hear you.

That was aimed straight at Steve and his implication that the way he addresses his own PC problems represents a valid diagnostic and repair strategy. In fact taking him word for word and applying that to the real automotive repair world would have him failing to solve the customers concerns time and time again. This is something he has attempted to press more than once and saying no it doesn't work that way nicely failed to get through. So it became time to be a bit more assertive, and if it was talking down to him what should I say, sorry?

You wrote about when you worked retail, why did you stop working retail? Did the pressures brought by consumer expectations and demands reach a point that it became impossible to meet them? You can see in the responses over the last day comments about "if they would reduce the price just" which are based on emotion and have no basis on the realities of operating a shop today. When someone like that gets a loud enough voice, and a consumer gets misinformed because of them, they have set the shop up to fail no matter what they do, and the consumer to walk away dissastisfied even when the shop has operated perfectly.

When Edmunds was involved in that NBC sting, they condemmed some shops for how they operated, when the shops actually got it right, and they priased some who blew it so bad the result was they would chase their own techs out of the bays, and into different careers. Much in the way I suspect that you don't work retail anymore.

thecardoc3

Thanks Steve. Even tough I started pounding on you a bit that is my goal to get the word out there about how the work has changed and people need to see what really is right.

If someone walks in the door and they have an expectation that doesn't match how we must approach the issue with their car we can be doing everything perfectly only to have them walk away thinking it was a bad experience. If we don't charge enough, then we won't be there for them in the future whether they were happy with what we did or not.

The costs to us have exploded in the last decade and no amount of haggling will change what the tools and schools and insurances etc cost. It already is taking over 65 hours of productive time in the shop each week, plus the second job of teaching to try and make ends meet and provide the level of service that we do. There is no fat that can be cut anywhere in the equation so when someone walks in the door insisting on cheaper, they will walk back out dissapointed as our concentration has to move onto the next customer who does understand the changes. We don't want to dissapoint anyone, but people who would listen to only some of the things you have written here will be dissapointed and we had no chance.

Never lose sight of the fact that we are already 35-40% underpriced, that is a real number. We are also the highest priced shop in the town and 50% of what we do today is sent to us directly by other shops, including four local dealerships.

thecardoc3

Your argument, while persuasive, would hold more weight than it actually does if, in fact, it could be shown that licensed trained mechanics outperform DIYers across the board

Arrogance ON...

This tech does...

Arrogance OFF...

Seriously though, how should I comment on that? It takes a lot of arrogance to try and claim that a bi-annual weekend warrior has all the capabilities of even an average technician (5 yrs exp). Let alone a truly seasoned master technician today.

I submit to you that an uncomfortable percentage of repair shops ARE, in fact, DIYers themselves

So you would support a REAL licensing program, and only technicians who have completed all of the training required can buy parts, and repair vehicles?

You would support the technician candidates going to a four year college, and then having a five year internship in order to qualify to be tested to recieve his/her licensing?

Do you have any idea what this would do to pricing as compared to what it is today? Double? Triple?

thecardoc3

Correct Robr2

We can fix them cheaper than they can be replaced. The people who assign trade in and retail "value" to a car are the ones who make money by simply buying and selling them.

A correctly serviced, and when needed repaired '98 will do everything a 2012 will do, except come with a guranteed monthly payment.

We encourage that oldercart owner to open a savings account and start making "that new car payment" to themselves. The only time they should touch that money is on the day their present car needs a major repair, and they choose to fix it, or when the day comes and we look at the car and tell them it's time for a new one.

When that day comes, they have CASH for whatever they want. That's what a good shop with good technicians mean to the consumers. We save them money, maybe that's why there are so many attacks on us that really are baseless.

Then if they continue that habit by the time they retire they could have several hundred K in the bank.

thecardoc3

And that assumes you have a good mechanic that you can trust too. They are getting more rare it seems, at any price.

I am trying to do someting about that. Can you hear me now?

stever

Good morning Doc. I address my car problems like I do my PC problems. And often I can research and fix my car myself, depending on the problem. Brake pads and some part swapping is about the limit of my ability (and tools). That still leaves a lot (the blower resistor, sticky tach in my van, window switch, throttle body cleaning) that I can do. If it saves me $100 and keeps me on the road, I don't care if my method is "valid" or not.

So, why aren't the Right to Repair bills and ballot propositions getting passed? Massachusetts keeps trying, and just got it on the ballot again this month.

thecardoc3

It's a solution in search of a problem.
It will not make anything more affordable, it won't make what is already available, more available. It won't make the shops that are not presently buying the O.E. tools spend the money to have them. It won't get the techs who are not presently attending every school that comes by to attend it. In short it won't do anything that shops or consumers will benefit from.

Can you take your routines out onto the street and get a job servicing a consumers vehicle? Mr Shiftright seems to feel that's all it takes.
If you would try and get a job as a technician, would you really live up to the standards that you would expect from a technician working on your car?

If you got a piece of metal in your eye would you grab a flashlight, a mirror and some instrument to try and remove it, or would you seek out a professional?

What if there wasn't one to be found?

We have actually achieved a status where we can "almost" survive doing just the night-marish stuff that cars can present. Without a good dose of the easy stuff to subsidize that night mares we wouldn't be there to prevent you from risking poking your own eye out.

My tool rep called about 1/2 an hour ago. My IDS update plus support cost us $1095. Only five more tools to go and we will be good till September....

Heck of a choice, Christmas or the IDS....

Mr_Shiftright

Well now.... current minimal standards for the career of "auto mechanics" in the USA is a bad joke isn't it?

I mean, you can theoretically be a 12 year old boy and open up a shop and start working on people's brakes. There's no law that says he can't--of course he'd have to have someone of legal age I suppose to sign a rental contract for the facility. Any "training" is strictly voluntary.

I would *heartily* support an apprentice program in this country. We don't even have to get the government involved at all, nor any educational institutions.

For Example:

Instead of paying a college tuition, you, the apprentice, pay a quality repair shop to employ you and teach you for a year or two.

This wouldn't raise repair rates, since the garage will be getting perhaps $1500 a month from the apprentice while extracting meaningful work from him that it can charge for.

Perhaps in 2-3 years he would be sufficiently trained to earn as much as he might on his first job out of college...perhaps more.

As for DIYers being smarter than repair shops, well, perhaps the fairest thing to say is that the best DIYers are better than the worst repair shops.

ateixeira

One thing I think we should do is distinguish between a trained mechanic and the grease monkey part-timer who just changes oil and does routine service.

I can change the oil myself. And yes I think I take better care of my own oil changes than some part-timer.

If a transmission needs to be rebuilt, I'll happily pay for a real pro.

Mr_Shiftright

True but how do you tell the difference? There is no state "license", like for a contractor.

I suppose you could ask to see their diplomas, which is a fair request.

And even then, you have no way of knowing if they are:

incompetence but honest
incompetent and dishonest
competent but dishonest
competent and honest

Naturally we all want #4, so the odds are 1-3 against us I guess. :P

ateixeira

vs. 1 to 1 for a DIY, we're honest with ourselves but whether or not your competent depends on you!

Mr_Shiftright

Well I am painfully aware of my limitations as a DIYer. I'm 1/2 a good DIYer--that is, I can often figure out what is going wrong, but I have no idea how to fix it. :P