Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

carinfohelp

Howdy! I am a student who needs help for my marketing class. We are doing a project and I need some feedback if anyone is willing!

By aftermarket I mean anything really that is added after the car is purchased and more typically like car features and not parts, aka adding aftermarket remote access features, not a new starter because the original broke.

Do you add aftermarket parts to your car?

Would you add aftermarket parts if there was a feature that you wanted but didn't have?

Why do you or others add aftermarket parts to their cars?

Would you add aftermarket remote access to your car?

Would you add aftermarket push button ignition?

if you are willing are you male or female and maybe general age if you want.

Thanks so much for any responses or help, it is much needed and very much appreciated!!!

estreka

Sure. I'm a 26/m.

Do you add aftermarket parts to your car?
Absolutely.
Would you add aftermarket parts if there was a feature that you wanted but didn't have?
Often I hold off from OEM features anyway because the aftermarket is so much cheaper and I can get specific items that are more in line with my personal taste.
Why do you or others add aftermarket parts to their cars?
Cost. Personality. Reliability. You name it.
Would you add aftermarket remote access to your car?
I have it for my car. I would do it again, yes.
Would you add aftermarket push button ignition?
No. My S2000 came with it and I like it as far as gimmicks go, but I wouldn't pay extra for it.

0patience

You assume that the computer will actually tell you what part to replace.

I have seen hundreds of young kids come out of tech schools where they emphasized Computer diagnostics and they were lost on basic diagnosis.

As long as there is still mechanical parts in the vehicles, the "teenage computer geek" (as you put it) will be lost.
The computer person will be lost, because he won't have access to thousands of dollars of diagnostic information, updated information and specialized tools.

The information system I have costs roughly $1800/year for each person.
Add to that, the costs of scanners, DVOMs (some run in the neighborhood of $600) and what ever training that comes along.

I'd like to see these computer kids rebuild a manual transmission or differential.

I get many of these vehicles that these "computer kids" have hacked the computers, messed with the programming and added Nitrous Oxide, boosted turbos and that and destroyed their transmissions and differentials.

Why? Because they were clueless to the basics.

No bit of computer knowledge can replace experience and knowledge.

stever

You assume that the computer will actually tell you what part to replace

I think we're heading that way. I've fixed a lot of computers by swapping parts around and I have no transistor or electrical theory background. I'm hoping that all the electrical diagnosis scanners that you are paying big bucks for will trickle down and wind up being onboard the car one day. So the car will flash the idiot video screen and tell you what broke, how it tried to heal it, and what needs to be swapped out.

It's not cost effective to resolder a resistor in a circuit board - are there still a lot of backyard starter/generator shops rebuilding alternators? I figure most of those guys have retired and that business is all bolt on now.

The economics of simply swapping out a factory rebuilt tranny or differential may outweigh a shop rebuild too. For example, my buddy got a crate engine a couple of months ago and paid $1,000 more for a factory job with a 5 year warranty vs the local shop rebuilt one that offered a one year warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't hold my breath for that. The car environment and the computer environment are very different with regards to diagnostics. The variables in a car are infinitely more complex and inter-dependent I think, and it's going to take some mighty hefty computer power to actually locate the faulty part.

But it will get better and better, I'll grant you that.

stever

Maybe - but a simple IM test last month told me I have a marginal (likely eroded) plug in cylinder #3. A few more sensors and smarter ECUs... who knows.

Maybe I'll get to buy a car with the hood welded shut before I croak.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes but what CAUSED #3 plug to erode and the others not is the question of the day!

The problem with diagnostic machines is that they often lead to symptoms, not to causes. The human element has to build a diagnostic "tree" based on what the machine is telling him.

Basically you are asking a machine to think. It can't do that. Well, it CAN play chess that's true but that's not quite the same thing. A chess board is a closed loop of sorts. A car is an almost endless universe of possible hassles :surprise:

stever

Yes but what CAUSED #3 plug to erode and the others not is the question of the day!

And maybe you and 0Patience and 3% of all the other "techs" out there could diagnose why the plug eroded (probably just old age in my case lol). Everyone else will charge me a $60 "diagnostic" fee, change the plugs, tell me "they all do that" and send me on my merry way.

ajvdh

Up to about a year ago, we owned a '98 Passat, and I did almost all the work on it at home. This included diagnosing and fixing body computer and central locking issues. This was because of Bentley publishers, and a company called Ross-Tech. Bentley sells the factory repair manual on CD, and Ross-Tech sells software that'll let your laptop plug into the OBD-II port and emulate VW's diagnostic tool. In addition to listing all the OBD-II standard codes, it understands and displays VW specific codes, which you can then diagnose with the repair manual. It'll also let you monitor and log engine, transmission and body computer operation in real time. Plus, you can clear codes, and set any "options" (auto-lock and the like). Total cost for software, cable and shop manual was about $260. Not cheap, but the first time I used it I was ahead of the game, money wise. Also good for peace of mind, 'cause the one time the check engine light came on and we were 700 miles from home, I was able to determine it was nothing more serious than a sticky idle control solenoid.

What's also interesting to me is how many other 3rd parties have been able to reverse engineer OEM software. If you have a forced induction VW/Audi, BMW, Evo or Subaru, there's some very good stuff out there. One of my cow-orkers was thinking of ditching his Legacy turbo 'cause of a nasty part-throttle stumble that Subaru knows about, but can't fix. Instead, he loaded Vishnu's stage I software, reduced the stumble to a tolerable level, and picked up 35 HP in the bargain.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, that's partly your fault for patronizing garages like that

stever

I found a good guy just today - when I told him my '97 needed a 60k service, he about swallowed his cigarette. :shades:

0patience

I do see the point you are making. There is a lot of advancement being made in the computers for the cars of tomorrow.

But let me give you an example of what can go wrong with the "techs" of today who don't learn basics.
Today, I had a machine that had an alternator problem.
For some reason, the alternator wasn't charging and some of the lights weren't working. The computer was telling us that the alternator wasn't charging.

Ok, we knew that.
Upon testing, the wire that signals the alternator to start (Some call it the signal wire, exciter wire or charge wire) didn't have voltage.

Here is where it gets tricky. The computer actually controls the voltage to the signal wire. So, where does the tech go?
Check the computer? It says the alternator isn't charging.
Check the alternator? Why? Alternator can't charge with out a signal.

Now, here's a bit to throw you, if you turned the lights on, the alternator started charging.

So, back to basics. Visual check.
Followed the alternator signal wire back and found that it had rubbed thru and was shorting on one of the wires that ran the headlights. (To clarify, the exciter wire had rubbed thru and partially into the headlight wiring) Headlights off, the connection was broken, headlights on, it supplied power to the alternator signal wire.

Repaired the wire and headlights and alternator worked fine.

The point of all this typing is that all the computer skills in the world wouldn't have solved this one. What solved it was basic electrical knowledge.

For those who I bored to death, sorry about that.

stever

Well, I'm not so sure that a sensor couldn't tell you that a particular wire is losing voltage or current under load because of a short. So a good computer would say that wire is bad and replace it. You use voltmeters now to test loads and such I assume, so the only issue I see there is figuring out how to track that load in real time without spending a fortune on the sensors.

Plus I'm sure you've run into situations where the wire got pierced or something and is shorted but there's no external visible evidence of a problem.

I'm just tossing out terms I don't fully understand, but I think you get my drift.

stever

"The AASP is a national consumer group based in Boston that is pushing the Right to Repair Act, now in the U.S. Congress and also the [Mass.] state Legislature.

The bill, if passed, will require car companies to provide independent repair shops access to all the diagnostic codes and repair information that it supplies to its dealers."

Local mechanics fight for car repair information (South Coast Today)

estreka

I found this article in the WSJ about the expense and ease of repairs. Apparently the IIHS and some group called the Research Coucil for Automotive Repair (RCAR) have been working together to persuade automakers to involve ergonomic design into their automobiles in relation to maintenance and repairs. Interesting article.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120671829721371953.html

It should be noted that RCAR is a collection of insurance agencies. I would imagine their agenda involves getting repair costs below the magical $1000 mark, where many folks set their deductables.

stever

I've seen a few of those headlight replacement horror stories, so any movement to fix idiotic stuff like that would be welcome.

krony

great story, as they say..."common sense isn't so common anymore"

stever

New Jersey's motoring consumers were granted "car repair" relief when three out of five Assemblypersons in the Consumer Affairs Committee today voted to pass The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act, A-803.

The legislation allows motorists to choose where, how and by whom to have their vehicles repaired, even work on their vehicles themselves. Vehicles are equipped with computers that control the repair and service information on vital systems such as, but not limited to: air bags, brakes, steering mechanisms, tire pressure, oil changes, electronics, check engine lights, transmissions and fuel injection."

NJ Assembly Consumer Affairs Committee Passes Pro-Consumer, Pro-Competition 'Right To Repair Act'

qbrozen

Soo.... I don't get it. What does this do? I am not aware of any programming or tools that are not already available ... for a price. The article doesn't state what actions, if any, will be taken as a result of this "Act." Will manufacturers be forced to provide software for free? I seriously doubt it. Dealerships don't get it for free, so why should indy shops?

The only example I can use to relate to this is the indy Volvo shop I used to frequent. There was nothing they couldn't do that the dealership could do ... but they needed to invest in the same equipment as the dealer. For Volvo, that meant having the VADIS software. Very expensive, from what I understand.

stever

Some of the shop owners complain that they invest big bucks in the equipment and software, only to discover that pieces of the software diagnostics are missing. Meanwhile the dealers get the complete set of tools.

The article is a bit misleading too - it sounds like the Act just got through committee and hasn't been passed or signed off on by the governor.

I want a wireless OBDII gizmo that will let my car talk to my computer so I can then upload the parameters to the forum or Edmunds Answers or the dealer or my indy mechanic and have someone decipher the results.

It's easy to run a program like HijackThis and upload the results to the net, and 10 tech heads will jump in and tell you what's going on with your computer for free. I want that for my car and maybe right to repair legislation will make the automakers go that way. :shades:

euphonium

While under warranty the local dealer kept throwing BMAP sensors into the car to stop the Rich combustion. The small dealer with a small shop used a portable diagnostic console to no avail.

I took it to a dealer in Tacoma who used a huge stationary diagnostic machine that provided a long printout.

After reading the Tacoma printout, the local service manager had a new computer installed under the dash and that fixed the problem. He said the Tacoma machine cost too much for them to invest in, but up there the quantity of business paid for it.

stever

"TORONTO - Automakers have agreed to allow independent garages access to the key software and training needed to repair newer-model cars, but the auto-repair industry says the voluntary agreement has no teeth.

Federal Industry Minister Tony Clement said Tuesday the agreement over what is called the right to repair will cover all Canadian auto manufacturers and distributors and will make for more competition and lower repair bills for consumers.

"The agreement will make information and tools available to independent repair shops . . . for the repair of all vehicles," Clement told a news conference in Ottawa on Tuesday.

"Often, fixing vehicles today is more about the car's computer system than it's about nuts and bolts and so, in order to repair and service newer vehicles, there are highly specialized and specific tools that require technical training and diagnostic information," he added.

Proponents of the agreement say it gives consumers the choice to get their vehicles repaired wherever they want once their warranty has expired, but the independent auto-repair industry says there will be no guarantees unless the right to repair is enshrined in legislation."

Automakers to give access to key software; repair shops say deal lacks teeth ( NBBusinessJournal.com)

hpmctorque

It's certainly an important step in the right direction, but it seems that it still needs stronger enforcement.

How does this compare with what we have in the U.S?

stever

That link says we have a better setup, still voluntary, but enforced by the provisions of the Clean Air Act.

Which was news to me.

hpmctorque

Yeah, more details are needed. Our laws should provide what's best for consumers. There should be as level a playing field as possible between dealer service departments and independent shops, whereby the independents can purchase the service manuals (hard copy or online), including updates, training, plus the correct tools, at reasonable prices.

There should be vigorous competition between dealers and independents, across brands and models, to ensure that the consumer can never be held hostage by dealers on maintenance and repair issues, quality of work, and prices.

The business arrangement must be fair to the vehicle manufacturers as well as to independent garages. The prices that manufacturers charge the independents for service manuals, repair tools and other products, and training should be fair and reasonable to all parties, to ensure healthy competition on service and repair work.

What am I missing? Are we there yet, especially with brands such as Volvo and Saab?

Mr_Shiftright

What about an affordable scan tool for Chrysler products? Consumers are still SOL on that, aren't they?

0patience

Right now, the technical information provided from the manufacturer's, along with the diagnostic tools and software are still pretty cost prohibitive.

Most independent shops can hardly afford the diagnostic tools and even if they can, they still don't have access to the software to reflash the PCM/ECM/TCMs.

Lately, the manufacturers are claiming that they are providing the technical information and tools to the independents. Which technically, they are.

But it's like your employer saying that he provides you health insurance, but costs you $1,000/month. It's available, but at a large cost.

Right now, there are a few scan tools available for the consumers. Some are reasonable in their costs, some aren't so reasonable.
It also depends on how in-depth you want the scanner to go.

This is an issue that I am constantly at battle with and trying to get legislatures to understand the situation is extremely difficult.

stever

Right to Repair Bill Introduced into Senate with Bipartisan Support (PR Newswire)

"The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act, which was introduced by Reps. Edolphus Towns (D-NY), Anna Eshoo (D-CA) and George Miller (D-CA), would require car companies to make the same service information and tools capabilities available to independent repair shops that they provide to their franchised dealer networks. The legislation further provides car companies with strong protections for their trade secrets unless that information is provided to the franchised new car dealers."

Mr_Shiftright

Some of the costs incurred by independent repair shops to "keep up" are STAGGERING....I don't think the average consumer has any idea how much some of this testing equipment costs.

One reason I don't fix my own cars anymore (well I do some things) is that the cost of gearing up vastly exceeds the repair bills.

hpmctorque

Yeah, unfortunately the era of the tree-shade mechanic is long gone, and will never return. I guess that's the price we pay for low emissions, safe cars, with lots of features. Will the average consumer be unable to afford car maintenance, eventually? Maybe.

stever

Weld the hoods shut and turn 'em in in 3 years?

Mr_Shiftright

Perhaps. I mean, who would repair a big screen TV when it goes POP and turns to black?

I'll still spring for a $130 code-reader and a repair manual, but this is not for repair. This is to arm myself with information so that I can *affect* the outcome of my repairs.

euphonium

A diagnostic code reader is worth the investment. Thankfully, I can still use my senses to tune the 289 in my 66 Mustang & our '77 302 Sea Ray. The timing light helps too.

stever

Diagnostics should be built into the car in the first place. It wouldn't be too difficult to have the idiot light actually send code info to your nav or radio display and tell you what the computer thinks is wrong. Some cars already tell you when to change your oil (and not simply based on time or miles either).

euphonium

Agree. If given the choice between Navigation & Diagnostics as you describe, I'd pick the Diagnostics.

0patience

I keep telling people to gather as much information they can BEFORE they take their vehicle in.
The more they know about what is going on with their vehicle, they better off they will be.

stever

I think it's a good thing, but it's notable that we have a few professional mechanics using Edmunds Answers to try to track down problems with their customer's cars.

It must be getting harder and harder to be a generalist shop owner instead of specializing in one brand.

euphonium

Location: Prince George, BC or Tok, AK

2006 Jaguar XJ8 L

any engine problem (won't start)

Who works on that? A generalist shop owner is all there is. The nearest dealer in BC is back down in Vancouver.

Now what?

stever

Tow to ANC, FBX or Whitehorse (Prince George is big enough to have some dealers who could probably get you going).

I had car trouble 20 odd years ago in Haines Junction (half the size of Tok, which isn't saying much, lol). Car wouldn't shift and I had to go over a pass in 2nd around 25 mph (the roads were dicey and I followed a slow plow the whole way over anyway, but still). It was on a Sunday iirc and the kid mechanic said the transmission was shot.

The older owner shows up that evening (we stayed overnight in his motel adjacent to his shop) and played with it some. The next morning he figured out that the compression was so bad, not enough vacuum was being created to shift the automatic. He advanced the timing or something and we got home ok. That guy had some sort of official Canadian certificate on the wall that looked harder to get than the ASE stuff you see in the States and he got us going for under $100 plus the motel bill.

THAT guy could probably solve Toyota's sudden acceleration problems. Probably a cousin of 0patience or Shifty or Mac24 and a few others here whose names escape me at the moment. :shades:

stever

Massachusetts to Mandate Sale of Diagnostic Equipment to Independent Mechanics (Inside Line)

motorcity6

Your boat ownership got my attention, the 77 30' Sea Ray...I had a couple of 30 footers, a 77 Express w/baby blue hull and twin 360 Chryslers and a 79 Sedan Bridge w/T-350 Chevys..Ran each one just during the summer months and flipped end of season..Buy low and sell high..Beats winter storage..

Diagnostic codes have never been a problem for me since I have had only one occasion in 53 cars that a light ever came on..Forgot to fasten the gas cap tight, 500 miles later the light went off, and finally had it tuned @111k mi, sold at 120k..

In fact at my age the Diagnostic light didn't come into existence until maybe late 70's...If we had problems in the old days the engine blew up, or the car stopped..

I like your Mustang selection, a 2011 GT or the V-6 w/performance pkg will be my next selection to fill the other garage space..The other wheels in thwe garage is a 2006 GPGT w/260 hp, S/C V-6, bought it cheap w/4300 mi, half price, and at 45k miles it is running super, needs more high speed time to loosen up the engine..

Take good care of the Sea Ray..I only put 100 hrs on the express model, and a like amount on the Sedan Bridge..Normal summer in Michigan..The best days of boating, "the day you buy and the day you sell it"..

0patience

Smoke and mirrors.

Section4: "Notwithstanding any other general or special law or rule or regulation to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall require a motor vehicle manufacturer to divulge information that is a trade secret or other such proprietary information related to the development or use of the manufacturer's repair and diagnostic tools, equipment and parts, except pursuant to a valid contract or agreement executed by a manufacturer and the other person."

Which means that they will still hold all proprietary information (scan programs) from aftermarket developers, so the mechanics will still be required to purchase the OEM scan tools from the manufacturer. These costs are usually quite high and often out of reach for the aftermarket/indy shops.

It is a step in the right direction. The problem is, these bills are often written by a lobbyist or legislature who has no idea what the real issues are.

stever

These costs are usually quite high and often out of reach for the aftermarket/indy shops.

Are they though? I asked my indy Subie mechanic about this a couple of months ago. The chief mechanic said they just got a new Subaru specific scanner in the shop for a couple of thousand dollars. That didn't sound too bad. I didn't ask if they got it from Subaru or if it was just "compatible" with Subies.

Are you still seeing quotes for ~$40,000?

Mr_Shiftright

It depends on a lot of things, such as a) which car you work on and b) how "deep" you want to go into each car and c) how NEW the models you choose to work on.

I know for Porsche it can cost an indy $30K for the right diagnostics---I saw a hand-held device for $12,000 bucks.

But these guys are doing some very high tech stuff, tuning, mapping, racing mods, etc.

astphard

If someone didn't have a super-computerized car, how do people even get started on how to repair their vehicles themselves? I have an interest in cars, but my parents didn't, and so all I know how to do is take it to a repair shop. Is this a matter of getting a book, practicing, screwing up, and learning, or should I try car repair classes at a community college, or...?

stever

How it Works! Welcome to Auto 101 may be of interest while waiting for responses in here.

Mr_Shiftright

BENTLEY REPAIR GUIDES are the best but they don't make them for all types of cars.

If you can't find a BENTLEY GUIDE, then I'd suggest taking out a 1-year subscription toALL DATA DO IT YOURSELF.

For a measly $26.95, you'll get step by step advice on most repairs.

In both cases above, some knowledge of terminology and some familiarity with tools is required, so yeah a beginner course at a community college would help as a starter.

Modern cars are complex, and if you want to repair *everything* in your own car, that's like committing to a two-year Associate's Degree in college.

imidazol97

The suggestions so far are good.

I don't know what brand of car, but I do know that the GM factory service manuals are great for learning how some things need to be repaired. For GM these are produced by Helminc.com.

http://www.helminc.com/helm/welcome_select_oem.asp?Style=helm

First, Helm has a listing of several, 12 or more companies, for which they do the manuals. I don't know how many years back in each they sell them.

I also know that you can buy the Helm manuals from ebay sellers. BUT you need to do some browsing for a while to see what the pictures look like. There are many trying to sell digital versions. I stick with paper--my one purchase, jsut to see of a digital still will not load on a computer.

Another problem is sometimes there are 2 or 3 volumes to a manual set; the seller may be selling only 1 or 2. So watching a while to see if others have more volumes helps avoid getting ripped off.

Sometimes helminc has a "sale" on certain older paper copies, at least they have for GM.

Second, many public libraries have access to AllData from their library computers. Our county library system has huge databases accessible from my home computer, but AllData can only be accessed at a branch because AllData charges per computer that has access.

By browsing through AllData, you can printout or save graphics or even whole webpages onto a USB drive or diskette or CD, and then click to reread and use them on your home computer.

thecardoc3

These costs are usually quite high and often out of reach for the aftermarket/indy shops.

This is correct, and it's what I call Newtons third law as applied to business. Every time potential is taken from the shops, it saves the consumer at that moment while it removes potential revenues which could make purchases like we will discuss here possible for the shops. There is a cost for free, and this is one of them.

Are they though? I asked my indy Subie mechanic about this a couple of months ago. The chief mechanic said they just got a new Subaru specific scanner in the shop for a couple of thousand dollars. That didn't sound too bad. I didn't ask if they got it from Subaru or if it was just "compatible" with Subies.

A couple of thousand? Euro's

http://www.nastf.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1

http://www.cardiag.com/subaru-select-monitor-3/

Well that doesn't seem too bad except that you never own it. When it's anniversary comes around you have to purchase a new license to continue to use it. That's $1000 each and every year that you own it.

Today my Tech II represents more than $20,000 when you figure the initial purchase, the Candi upgrade, and all of the subsequent yearly updates.

Ford I have the NGS, which surprisingly still comes out of the tool box two or three times a year, that's $10,000 all by itself and the IDS which is my main Ford tool today and is currently just over $9000 in it.

Chrysler/Dodge almost makes me sick. The initial $9000 investment for the DRBIII included three years of updates. Just as that was expiring, we then needed a tools that could support CAN vehicles, so I got the StarScan $6500. It was superceeded before the payment book was empty by the Star Mobile, which itself has been superceeded by the WiTech. The Witech is a $7000 purchase that requires yearly updates to the tune of $1700, or it turns off.

That's just the big three, and this excercise repeats for each manufacturer that I am free to choose to support or not and that's one of the keys to R2R, it's really all about choices. My shop is as small as any can get. It's just me and my wife (who's epilepsy condition makes her unemployable in any other career) . Back in 97 I realized the aftermarket tools (Snap-On, OTC etc) simply had too many holes in the coverages for me to deal with many of the problems my custmers faced. With GM being the largest market share it simply made sense to have their scan tool. I also found and purchased the NGS from a dealership technician and I had my first two O.E. scan tools.

Now all the while I still had the Snap-On red Brick which I eventually upgraded to a Solus.

Add in Toyota, Honda, Mazda, and the renewal of software licensing alone runs me more than $10,000 a year and that is to only get to keep using what I have already purchased.

I am an electronics/diagnostics specialist and get cars sent to me from other shops all over the county. The things they cannot solve can often times be very simple, and it comes down to the fact that they don't have the O.E. tools, or they can be real nightmares that can eat up an entire day's worth of time to track down especially if they are random or intermittent in nature. Sometimes I can turn those jobs into profitable ones by storing the diagnostic data and writing it up and selling them as case studies for advanced diagnostic classes. But usually they end up simply as losers. If we would actually charge the time that gets invested, we would be slaughtered as rip-offs and when we don't it explains why I work seven days a week, 12 hours or more between two careers just to try and keep from going bank-rupt.

At this point we have stopped buying any additional O.E. tools and are simply trying to maintain the use of what we have. 2012 vehicles and newer will likely never see our shop for anything beyond what a Snap-On Solus will support, the costs are simply prohibitive.

The shops that support R2R want to be able to do what I can. They have thought that they were locked out which has never been the case, in many ways they still run their shops like we are working on '70s era cars. Back then the work was much simpler, and all of it was more physical in nature. Today that is not the case and we need to attract academically gifted people who have the natural talent to also be a mechanic to the trade. That kind of a person can demand good money in almost any field and the reality is we have nothing comparable to offer them. That's a consumer issue that you see evidence of al over the place. We have no choice but to try and run with what we get as a trade. It isn't dishonesty that causes what people believe to be rip-offs, it's a competency issue.

Take anyone of the naturally talented people you meet who "do their own work" and drop them into a shop and you would find it will be fifteen to twenty years before they really achieve the experience where they don't make the mistakes associated to incompetence, the work we do day in and out is really that difficult.

So what does this have to do with R2R? It's simple really, the shops that believe in it think it will hand them what they need in order to make up for a couple decades worth of failing to invest in the future. They believe the O.E. tools if they could get them cheap enough would solve all of their problems when it comes to doing diagnostics. They think the tools will do the work at a level that they don't have to make their techs go to schools to continue their educations.

R2R will do none of that. It's a parts bill funded by offshore interests who are more interested in making knock off airbag modules and other components that they need specific software to make them work. The wording is in the bill, they simply refuse to see it. The word "certify" opens the door big enough to drive a parts truck through when in context it means to be able to prove something works and of course that something has nothing to do with repairs, it has to do with testing of replacement parts.

Auto repair today is underpriced by some 30-45%. That's a simple fact that can be proven in any basic business class. It's just a matter of adding up all of the costs for the business to survive, and then calulate what it needs to thrive. The pressure to keep prices low and/or revenues lower has resulted in a significant gap between the technology in the cars and the capabilites of the techs. Give the guys credit, for they have actually been smart enough to work around most of the roadblocks. But they lived in fear of losing customers if they raised their prices and so they have dug themselves into holes there is no way out of. They think R2R will save them so they support it. It won't.

thecardoc3

I forgot to finish Subaru. I have two scan tools that I currently rely on to service them, the Snap-On solus, and the Hannatech Ultrascan, which actually does a decent job. Neither replaces or is the equal of the Subaru tool. I use those tools on Subaru vehicles "MAYBE" ten times a year. Realize the tool will only improve my capabilites with Subaru for the last 35% of what it can do that my current tools cannot.

Now take the purchase price and divide it by twenty four. It will take two years to pay for the tool, we don't have that kind of cash laying around. For this excercise we won't even figure interest because that just makes it look even worse. The tool payment will be about $140 a month. I'll have two months out of the year that it won't be touched. If I charge my normal diagnostic rate, and if I could be instantaneous with it's use I'd only lose $30 for having bought the tool. Again, two months of the year, it will be a total loss.

Wait, that's the first year. The second year I'll have to pay for the update. That we will have to find the cash for. For the $2200 in revenues the tool gets to bring it by the time it is paid off it will have cost $3400, and be due for another $1000 update.

Now imagine this being repeated for each manufacturer that a shop chooses to support. Most are much more expensive than Subaru, yes some of the Euro's are over $40,000 initial purchase.