Right To Repair - A Hot Issue or Big Problem?

0patience

You wrote about when you worked retail, why did you stop working retail? Did the pressures brought by consumer expectations and demands reach a point that it became impossible to meet them?
The shop I worked in, customer expectations were high and rightfully so. Meeting the expectations and demands were never a problem, at least from my standpoint.
Actually the reason I left retail was that I was offered a job running a fleet shop for twice the amount of money. I had spent my younger years working the engines on my step father's fishing vessels in Alaska, so they knew I had plenty of experience on the heavy stuff and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse. So I took it.
I've worked fleet ever since. That was 25 years ago and 2 jobs.
Given my choice, I'd work fleet over retail any time. I have control over the repairs. I only answer to one person on costs. As long as the repairs are done efficiently and correctly, they pretty much leave me alone. I like the control.

When Edmunds was involved in that NBC sting, they condemmed some shops for how they operated, when the shops actually got it right, and they priased some who blew it so bad the result was they would chase their own techs out of the bays, and into different careers. Much in the way I suspect that you don't work retail anymore.
I didn't see that, so I really can't comment on it.
I still do work for other companies and customers, but it is now on my terms, not theirs. So, I still kind of do some retail work.

gagrice

State hopes to break car owners' habit of changing oil too often

California launches a campaign against the widespread notion that oil changes are needed every 3,000 miles. Officials say the practice wastes millions of gallons of oil a year.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autos-oil-change-20111215,0,4554184.story

thecardoc3

If you are intelligent enough and physically strong enough to repair today's modern automobiles with a high degree of success, what are you doing fixing cars for a living in a retail shop environment?

First if I wasn't a pro, you'd find me in the garage on all my free time, cause it darn sure would be my hobby. It's been said, have a career that you really love and you'll never work a day in your life. Well auto repair can be very mentally and physically demanding and yes many times the cars are easier to fix than the customers are but I love the variety and challenges that the job presents. There is always something new to learn.

With 35 years experience and a passion for studying (average some 20 hours a week) I'll tell you that today things are changing so fast that I have more study ahead of me, than I have behind me. It'so bad these days, that we have to choose to eliminate some cars from our list of what we plan to tool up and work on. There simply aren't enough hours in the day to study and prepare for the all makes and all models business plan. There darn sure isn't enough money, tooling up for the Euro's would be more than my shops gross sales in a year.

You know there is a worse perception that some people have raised, they litterally have taken a notion that if you fix cars for a living, you do that because your not smart enough to do anything else. Lets just say I have my own way of making them wish they hadn't let that slip out.

thecardoc3

Well now.... current minimal standards for the career of "auto mechanics" in the USA is a bad joke isn't it?

What's the minimum standard for offering repair advice? Just about the same right?

I was 12 when I reassembled the garden tractor that I helped my Dad tear apart, and I rebuilt the top half of a Chev 350 (valve job and camshaft) when I was 14. So what's your point? I was fixing bicycles and then minibikes and motorcycles then too. I did my first set of brakes and ball joints at 15, and no I didn't have a relative that worked in a shop. It was just something that I could do. Funny though I had no intention of becoming a mechanic, I actually wanted to be a fighter pilot, came close but fell short of that goal on the first crack.

Today the "apprentice" of yesterday is working in a quick lube job, instead of a career grooming position along side a master technician.

This wouldn't raise repair rates, since the garage will be getting perhaps $1500 a month from the apprentice while extracting meaningful work from him that it can charge for.

Actually it would, the master technicians productivity would drop because of the time spent teaching instead of wrenching. If I were to hire in an apprentice, he/she would litterally cost us money not generate additional income for at least three years.

Perhaps in 2-3 years he would be sufficiently trained to earn as much as he might on his first job out of college...perhaps more.

Today, with the right person who has natural talent, studies constantly and has good mentors it is a fifteen to twenty year journey to be the master technician equal to my generations mentors. That plateau you are thinking about is at least ten years from date of hire, the work is much more difficult than you are giving it credit for.

As for DIYers being smarter than repair shops, well, perhaps the fairest thing to say is that the best DIYers are better than the worst repair shops.

How about the best DIYer are not currently qualified to work at the worst shops without basic training. Sure there was once a time where a person with the right talents could walk into a shop and be somewhat productive, but not today. They would be at least six months before they could be allowed to operate on the simplest of tasks unsupervised. In that first six months they would make just aboout one of every mistake ever mentioned in these forums. (drain plugs and wheels loose, brakes dragging because they missed a bad caliper etc.etc.)

thecardoc3

Well if nothing else the comments section there is full of laughs!

gagrice

I agree with your position in auto mechanics today. In the 1950s and 60s and even early 70s I did all my own mechanic work. I rebuilt transmissions and engines of many types. Today forget about it. I don't even like lifting my own hood. Let the pros do it. Finding someone you trust to treat you honest is the biggest challenge. Most dealerships do not fall into that category.

A friend in a Buick/VW dealership told me he lost his best tech to the Caddy dealer. The other dealer offered the guy a guaranteed $150k per year. My friend could not match it. But felt the tech was worth it. The techs have to be really sharp and willing to keep up with the rapid changes. It was the same in the Telephone/Internet business I retired from. You snooze you lose.

0patience

Keep in mind that ALL of us mechanics were DIYers at one time.
We are just the ones who took it to the next level.

As for folks thinking that people become mechanics because they are not smart enough to do anything else.....
That was true years ago. That mentality was very prevalent. Today though, that mentality isn't so much. Folks are realizing that you have to be part computer tech, electronics tech and mechanic.

Ask anyone what the most important system in the vehicle is today and a lot will say the computer. Yet computer techs make far more than any mechanic.

stever

have to be part computer tech, electronics tech and mechanic.

And part detective and psychologist. And collection agent. :sick:

thecardoc3

So how do you tell if they are;

Competent. Ask them for references, ask for references from other people.

Honest. Give them a symptom and ask how much to "fix" it. There is ONLY one correct answer, "There is no way to know how much this could cost, we could only guess at this point and that won't do either of us any good. You need to know what this will cost to fix, and in order to do that we have to find out what it is, and how much the parts are and then estimate how long it will take to repair. So what we can do is the fee for the diagnostics will be "XXX" and we won't go beyond that without talking to you. If we have it diagnosed, we should be able to give you the exact price, if not, we can tell you what we know about the symptom, what we don't know, and then it will be your choice as to proceed or not."

I travel around the North East of the country and provide continuining educational classes for professional technicians on a number of systems, but prefer to, and get the greatest response out of the diagostic strategy and fundementals classes that I present. The techs who understand the basics today, are the ones who are the best at diagnostics. The basics however have changed over the last two decades from what they used to be before that. Most DIYers are still working like the cars are 60's and 70's models. Techs who are today struggling with the technology in the cars are somewhere in the 80's to early 90's and they know they don't like it and don't want to be where they find themselves. We will leave the fact that they are so worried about appearing "dishonest" and they haven't learned that price does not equal honesty and so they don't have the cash flow sufficient to make it more afforadble for them to get out of the shop and into the classroom and learning the things we are trying to share with them.

I cannot help but place a good percentage of the blame for that on many of the opinions and consumer advice that I see from organizations who position themselves as consumer advocates, who themselves are in fact totally ignorant of their own incompetence. Opatience felt I was talking down to Steve in the one response and I'm sure this will come across the same way but the goal is far from that. It comes down to I'm tired of the damage that the sucker punches do to the people in the trade and it's time to put real faces in front of the people who like to throw the blind punches and force them to look at the damage that they are doing.

And even then, you have no way of knowing if they are:
incompetence but honest
incompetent and dishonest
competent but dishonest
competent and honest
Naturally we all want #4, so the odds are 1-3 against us I guess.

Now should we really continue to turn the other cheek when someone pretends to be an authority and by giving advice for free pretends to be honest as if there is a genuine correlation between price and honesty?

Or is it time that someone stands up and says that will be enough of that kind of trash. I've been reading a lot more than I responded to and BTW Steve, nice job on that Isuzu the one the guy was throwing a grocery cart of parts at. He would have "spent less money" if he would have taken it to an electronics/diagnostics specialist and just let them figure the thing out and fix it. The high idle isn't likely related to the EGR issue at all because the EGR problem is probably a no flow issue due to blockage from carbon. By first seperating the two issues and then diagnosing/repairing one of them, the other would be much easier to recognize as it's own issue. Then it could in turn be addressed with a correct routine.

Let's see if I can paint a picture about "competence"and auto technicians today.

I've been fixing cars since before I could drive, but have been a pro for 35years. I averaged somewhere around five cars a day, 300 working days a year (average!) and some three issues per car so just crunching those numbers you get something like 160,000 repairs, that does not count oil changes, or tires, or other similar minor issues.

Today half of everything that comes in the door is something I have never seen before, and likely won't see a second time. When it comes to using knowledge and experience to solve these problems it takes a solid understanding of the basics, accessible information than can be understood in a timely fashion, and then take a disciplined approach to the task. That's how each repair event is done and there is no other way that anyone could suggest that wouldn't cause more problems than it solves.

With everything that I bring to the table and I study all the time on top of what I have learned in the shop, I know that I cannot look at someones description of a symptom and reliably tell them what they need to replace. I can in fact usually cite a similar sounding event that ultimately lead in a surprising direction in many of the cases. I'll even go as far as to say techs who haven't learned to diagnose the way I am talking about often end up thinking they know what to do based on the reported symptom and they do simply try and replace a part only to find out that they didn't fix the car. How can anyone "honestly" think that they can do any better with their advice than the technician did without seeing, feeling, and then correctly testing for the cause of a reported symptom?

Shiftright, don't take this personally it's not intended that way. I'm not taking one person to task here, I'm challenging the concept being used by many free advisors that fails both the competency and honesty checks when you really look at them. JMHO

On last question, I read another reponse that was not only incorrect, it could easily result in damage and an even bigger repair bill for that consumer. What should be done about that? ref Stop leak......

stever

Looks like you ran into the character limit - forget the number, but you'll have to continue in "Part 2".

My Subaru needed a timing belt a couple of years ago. So I didn't check with shops about what the problem or diagnosis was. I called the dealer and the indy place and asked how much it would cost. The dealer was high. The indy shop wasn't as high and made a point of telling me that they would also do the tensioner while they were in there. The shop also had been around a long time and had a good reputation. But, I also knew that they had changed owners a few months before and was afraid they were coasting on the reputation. But no complaints.

Hard to build a reputation, easy to lose it. Today it's easy to lose it without cause.

Did I mention that my current mechanic has a 3 bay garage (old service station) and has no sign and isn't even in the phone book? I'm in a small town where everyone knows everyone, but it still amuses me. He always has work.

0patience

I cannot help but place a good percentage of the blame for that on many of the opinions and consumer advice that I see from organizations who position themselves as consumer advocates, who themselves are in fact totally ignorant of their own incompetence.
So it's never the shop's fault? It's never the dealers?
I'll give you that with idiots writing stupid e-book on how your mechanic is ripping you off, it isn't easy to keep the good image alive. But I would have to think that the dealer or shop should look at their image and see if they are at fault.

Now should we really continue to turn the other cheek when someone pretends to be an authority and by giving advice for free pretends to be honest as if there is a genuine correlation between price and honesty?
I'm curious. Who pretends or even suggests they are an authority?

How can anyone "honestly" think that they can do any better with their advice than the technician did without seeing, feeling, and then correctly testing for the cause of a reported symptom?
They don't. And until you understand that, then I'm not sure how you are staying in business. Those people don't think they can even come close to a real technician working on their car. They only want to understand and possibly be able to correct a problem. That's all. They don't want to "rob" business from you or take your livelihood away from you, because you are an all important tech, who knows only the right way to do things and none of them could possibly be competent enough to actually do a repair on their vehicle. That is how your posts come across and to be honest, it's really sad to see that attitude.
It's that attitude that any site offering the consumer advice is a hack site.
That the only right answer is to see a shop. No question about it, I've often said that. But free advice is just that and should be construed as that. It isn't gospel, it isn't fact. It is someone's experience and opinion based on the information provided by someone asking a question. Is some wrong?
No question about it. What can we do to correct it? Dunno, remove all the free advice sites?

So let's look at that from a different view. If it is techs offering advice to consumers, that isn't a good idea, but techs offering techs advice and networking is ok. Right? I've seen just as bad advice from some professional tech sites as I have seen on consumer sites. So I can't say I agree with that argument.

If a mechanic/tech is serious about wanting to change the public perception of this industry, then I would think that they would make it their responsibility to try and educate the consumer as to why something is wrong. Why certain things need to be done.
To say something is bad advice and do nothing about or not try and correct it is counterproductive.
Some famous sayings that are relevant;
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Any action is often better than no action.
Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. Nothing.

thecardoc3

Did I mention that my current mechanic has a 3 bay garage (old service station) and has no sign and isn't even in the phone book? I'm in a small town where everyone knows everyone, but it still amuses me. He always has work.

That's great. But what is he doing to plan for next year?, What are his two year, five year, and ten year plans?

How many days training did he and his crew attend this past year? What are his plans for the upcoming years as described by his two year, five year etc?

Does he do reprogramming when TSB's or other sources dictate that it's needed?

Does he own, is he using the O.E. tools that are availalbe to him (wow all the way back to the original basis for the thread)

Being really busy and profitable are not necessarily synomynus today. In fact it could be exactly the opposite is occurring. Low pricing and high volume can keep the doors swinging today but it is not be sustainable with the evolution of technology in the cars. There are a lot of shops like that that have been told R2R will keep them afloat so they support it. meanwhile they have the appearance of doing all of the things the consumer has been told to look for. They don't realize they are caught in a trap and it's gonna seal their fate if they don't find a way out of it.

stever

How many days training did he and his crew attend this past year?

You're kidding right? Days off are for deer hunting.

Actually I mostly know the guy by reputation, and just met him once when I had my transmission fluid changed. Can't really speculate on your questions.

When my in-laws moved back here, they sold their Bimmer and got a Buick, since they figured keeping the BMW running would be tough.

back to the original basis for the thread

thecardoc3

I'll give you that with idiots writing stupid e-book on how your mechanic is ripping you off, it isn't easy to keep the good image alive. But I would have to think that the dealer or shop should look at their image and see if they are at fault.

We are closer in thought than you may be aware of, I just have a big enough chip on my shoulder these days that I push the topic all the way to one side even if it is to an uncomfortable level in order to allow the debate to center. You are correct, a lot of times shops are to blame, but not always. I've seen very little done in attempts to help consumers see what is really occurring in the trade. I often see poorly written and researched essays that get press soley because it's so popular for many to believe we are always out to take advantage of them. That often getrs shops and techs blamed unfairly and that will eventually turn around and hurt the consumers as well.

I'm curious. Who pretends or even suggests they are an authority?

You already mentioned the " idiots writing stupid e-book" There are many more have have been for decades. Do I have to put names down here? The actions of one of them is why I even came by here to take a look at this site and what prompted me to speak up.

They don't. And until you understand that, then I'm not sure how you are staying in business.

We can agree to disagree here. I see the results of bad advice in the cars belonging to first time customers (and maybe only time) just about everyday. As far as staying in business goes, that's easy. I'm not planning on continuing doing this much longer. (Two, maybe but not five more years) Physically the career is slipping (litterally) through my hands. I no longer feel burns/cuts. Remember what it felt like the last time you bruised a fingernail? For me? Nothing, I can just look at it and think, well that used to hurt, and get right back to work.

The heavy metals test the doctor ran this summer, well lets just say that I know that I don't really have to save for retirement anyway.

So let's look at that from a different view. If it is techs offering advice to consumers, that isn't a good idea, but techs offering techs advice and networking is ok. Right? I've seen just as bad advice from some professional tech sites as I have seen on consumer sites. So I can't say I agree with that argument.

Nor would I, the difference being if a tech advised another to use a coolant sealant to try and repair a customers car on a true professional technicians site, they would get their donkey handed to them as they recieved the education that they lacked which allowed them to even consider such a routine. As I read one such response here that has that suggestion mad in it I really had to struggle with myself between letting that stand or putting any comment on it which would ultimately lead to me ripping it to shreds.

Inside it's true intended use the product mentioned has merit, but for a consumer it was completely out of place and what was being recommended was not only going to fail but add other issues that would have to be addressed on top of that. I've seen shops that have had to repair a car that was treated in the manner that was suggested and it turned into an ugly mess for everyone involved.

Some famous sayings that are relevant;
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Any action is often better than no action.

Worth repeating.

thecardoc3

You're kidding right? Days off are for deer hunting.

I know the feeling, a day off? What's that? That's why many classes are held in the evenings so that the guys only have to work half days. 12 hour days ought to be enough!

Actually I mostly know the guy by reputation, and just met him once when I had my transmission fluid changed. Can't really speculate on your questions.

I really didn't think that you could and you'd probably feel uncomfortable trying to find out. But if you choose to, you could say that it's research for an article. Would you have the nerve to do this with a group of shops? Would you be more afraid of finding out just where the real problems lie and how big they really are?

When my in-laws moved back here, they sold their Bimmer and got a Buick, since they figured keeping the BMW running would be tough.

When my sister wanted one of those I told her, there will be many things that I can do with that car. BUT, there will be a lot that she will have no choice about except to go to the dealer. I told her if she is comfortable with that, then the rest was her choice. She bought it, and so far we have managed it well, even the convertible top issues it developed. But it's just a matter of time before she encounters something that we won't be the correct shop for.

0patience

I often see poorly written and researched essays that get press soley because it's so popular for many to believe we are always out to take advantage of them. That often gets shops and techs blamed unfairly and that will eventually turn around and hurt the consumers as well.
Agreed. More often than not, most of those written things often try to portray the "mechanics" as the bad people. The bad thing is, those e-books are often written with one sole agenda. To make the writer money.
They often make it seem like they are protecting the consumer, but most of the information is based on the consumer's fear of car repair.

There is a difference between educating folks to protect themselves, by keeping proper records, while the vehicle is under warranty and preying on their fear of shops.

And then there are the real horror story shops that deserve to be chastised. The problem is, half the time, we only hear half the story.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't take it personally at all. I've fixed hundreds of cars with a high level of success---I'm out of the hands-on game because I got too old to bang on cars. So i dropped out of the learning curve. But I am very proud of the work I did in the past. Yes, cars were simpler in the 80s and early 90s, and yes, I picked and chose my battles. Still, I *never* had a car beat me!

Besides, regarding online "advisors"----you can't expect a person sitting at a computer to have the same success rate diagnosing cars, as the person who actually has one in front of them--NO FAIR!

When I used to work on cars, I used my sense of smell and touch as well as my brain--I interrogated the owners doggedly--I knew the particular weaknesses of each model--I had a whole cadre of shops to swap info with.

None of that is available to me now. Steve and I have to operate much more in the dark than you do.

Besides, giving advice doesn't mean you have to know everything...you just have to know where to look to find the information, and to be conscientious about what you say.

The trick is to only give advice which be useful, not harmful. I don't tell people online to do things which are potentially dangerous or risky.

"Advice" covers such a wide range of topics--repair is just one leg of the stool.

LAST OF ALL ---there most certainly is a relationship between competence and money, in that the best mechanic is *always* the cheapest. (think about that for a minute) :P

thecardoc3

LAST OF ALL ---there most certainly is a relationship between competence and money, in that the best mechanic is *always* the cheapest. (think about that for a minute)

It doesn't take that long for me to think about it.
A gentleman walked into the shop saturday morning and wanted a price on a "tune-up" for his 2002 Taurus. The first thing I asked him is "What kind of a problem are you having?" He promptly described a misfire under load. He has a flashing check engine light when he notices the loss of power.

He told me that "someone told him he might need a tune up", and "someone also said he might need a fuel filter" so he wanted a price on that.

He came in the door wanting a price on tossing those parts at the problem(s). He didn't want any testing done and that meant we would have no chance of knowing whether this will fix his car. We have been burned in the past by doing exactly what someone like this wanted, only to find out the parts toss didn't fix the car and then we were accused of having done something to cause the further problem, or for having done the repair incorrectly.

My first reaction is to simply not even quote a price without checking out the problem first. It "could" be related to the plugs and wires which are still the originals. (10yr, 92K on them) The fuel filter could not be the cause based on the symptoms as described. Overall the maintenance history on the car is best described by the words missing, or unavailable.

In the end he's headed somewhere else to have them simply throw plugs, wires, and filters at this. I know where he's going and they won't check compression, nor fuel injector balance, nor fuel trims and fuel pressure. They won't test anything, just slam the parts and they "might" fix this. Knowing this engine and it's history of exhaust valve seat failure, they might not too.

We simply went back to work on the cars inside the shop.

thecardoc3

Besides, regarding online "advisors"----you can't expect a person sitting at a computer to have the same success rate diagnosing cars, as the person who actually has one in front of them--NO FAIR!

Couldn't have said that better myself,

stever

"The key element to tracking down a problem is effective communication between the motorist and the repair facility. The truth is that most auto repair shop personnel are trying to make an honest living and want to do quality work."

Get Results from the Auto Repair Shop

But it's more difficult for a mechanic to diagnose a car if the manufacturer won't let your mechanic have access to the technical info about your car.

Mr_Shiftright

I always tell people who are insisting that the advice they were given is correct to:

"consider the source".

Sometimes, people approach car ills the same way they do faith healers. They will selectively choose information that suits what they want to hear. They want to hear "tune up". They do NOT want to hear "head gasket" or "new catalytic converter" or "I can't say until I test it".

RE: "competence" -- I have to repeat what my dad once told me (he was an engineer for Packard Motor Car Co.):

"a diagnostic machine is only as good as the person reading it"

thecardoc3

But it's more difficult for a mechanic to diagnose a car if the manufacturer won't let your mechanic have access to the technical info about your car.

Exactly what information am I supposed to be missing?

thecardoc3

"But if you get the feeling that the auto repair shop is less than honest or staffed by a bunch of guys with red noses and big feet."

When the writer has to stoop to this level he/she isn't worth the time it takes to read. JMHO.

stever

You're the mechanic paying through the nose for scan data. You tell me.

And if you want real world horror stories about people getting their car "serviced", those are all over the forums.

thecardoc3

There is nothing that the dealer has that I do not have access to and it is totally "by choice" that I can either purchase it or decide not to. ROI and CODB do play an important role in that choice.

The author of that "essay" clearly realized that it wasn't standing on it's own merit, there is no other reason for the author to "go there". Substitute nationality, race, or gender in place of the trade and see how that sentence comes across.

stever

Hm, that's not what some of the proponents say.

("independent garages are investing in manuals and they are really getting the Cliff Notes version").

Mr_Shiftright

Even if you could somehow bludgeon automakers to give you all the secret info, they can still punish you by not selling you the parts for the repair if they so choose to play hardball. You can't for instance, get a belt for an Audi CVT transmission on an A4. But they'll sell you a rebuilt transmission, no problem.

stever

Wonder how hard it would be to get a radio code for that Audi or your MINI from a non-dealer?

Mr_Shiftright

Well some indie repair shops are actually friendly with dealers---but that's not the rule.

thecardoc3

("independent garages are investing in manuals and they are really getting the Cliff Notes version").

When they believe they have found a gap in the information, are they filing a NASTF report? Then was it genuinely a gap, or was it that they possibly didn't know where to look on the O.E site for the manufacturer in question?

When talking about many of the Euro's is the problem the fact that the majority of the repair information is engineered right into the factory scan tool, and absolutely available in that form prvided the shop chooses to make the required investment? That's the real reason I turn those cars away, on top of the fact that there simply isn't enough time in the day to study and prepare for all makes and models there would be no return on the investment that would be required to own those tools and software.

For the "price" I might repair two to five more BMW's a year, does spending 40K+ sound like a good idea to try and do that? rhet. The professional thing to do at that point is to refer that customer to someone that has made that investment.

thecardoc3

A friend of mine, former technician and shop owner, now instructor for standard motor parts will tell you that the diagnostic machine is the technician working with the vehicle, everything else is just a tool.

thecardoc3

You can't for instance, get a belt for an Audi CVT transmission on an A4. But they'll sell you a rebuilt transmission, no problem.

You CAN buy the belt if you choose to, but have you purchased the tools to set the transmission up? Why can you not just replace the belt alone? What other components must be addressed?

This is one of the traps today, what seems to be logical, "replace the belt" and reassemble the transmission isn't as easy as it may appear to be on the surface. Training and experience with each new version is essential and for the professional technicians who are used to having natural talents and previous experience carry them through on a routine basis they are walking into the kinds of traps these units can present.

There is a reason the dealers (and most other shops) don't rebuild trannies and other components anymore too, and it's all about "price". The training and experience required to have a technician that can repair the above mentioned unit as compared to simply having someone who can replace one from a crate is huge. Combine that with the fact that the warranty liability is also shifted outside of the shops doors and their profits are higher with significantly lower liability. I keep saying there is a cost for all of the price pressure being misplaced on the trade over the last few decades, this is simply another facet where it can be seen.

As a consumer you have played an active role in creating this situation, you should be happy that you got "what you wanted".

thecardoc3

I can give you a phone number if you like. Howard P. is a VW / Audi speciality shop and can do everything the dealership can. Last I looked there are some forty other independent shops that VW lists on their website as having achieved such status.

In many cases when dealing with "security" the technician is essentially isolated from what is actually going on beyond the hands on portion of the repair. VW / Audi actually do everything remotely. The scan tool simply displays a counter bar to keep the technician from fearing that the tool may have locked up.

stever

From forum and net posts, Honda will give an owner a radio code by phone for free. Why should I pay someone for similar information if I drive a Nissan?

And if VW can do stuff remotely, why can't I plug my laptop into the car and download and install updates?

Got an anti-static wrist strap in one of your toolboxes?

robr2

Personally, I don't support R to R. Being an MA resident, I hear the commercials and read the articles.

The biggest proponents behind R to R are the wholesale parts distributors. They know that if everything is made easier for the independent, then they'll get more business. Dealers are a closed market for 99% of what the wholesalers offer.

thecardoc3

From forum and net posts, Honda will give an owner a radio code by phone for free. Why should I pay someone for similar information if I drive a Nissan?

Assuming that your hypothetical situation is accurate, you'll do what the manufacture wants and pony-up, or live without the O.E. radio. Then again, don't purchase that car if your not willing to be professional in your approach.

And if VW can do stuff remotely, why can't I plug my laptop into the car and download and install updates?

Well, you can IF you purchase the VW scan tool which is required as the interface between the laptop and the car. Obtain a locksmiths ID, and bonding. Plus subscribe to the VW/Audi factory website.
You can set that all up from www.NASTF.org

That will set you back close to ten grand when it's all said and done but then you can do your programming yourself.

Got an anti-static wrist strap in one of your toolboxes?

Sure, several in fact. Why, do you need one?

stever

Honda radio codes are pretty easy. Why can't they all be that simple?

Extrapolate that example to most of the rest of the simple stuff an owner could do, with some free manufacturer info, and that'll free up the real techs like you to work on the fun problems. Some of us are comfortable flashing chips, but if you aren't, go hire a tech.

Rob, I'm not understanding why it's bad to let wholesalers sell parts that compete with dealer parts. Sounds more like a protectionist argument to keep cheap Chinese parts out of our market. That's fine if you want an OEM part, but if I want to get a replacement light bulb at Harbor Freight or RockAuto, and replace it without having to buy special instructions from the manufacturer on how to access the light housing, why shouldn't I?

robr2

Rob, I'm not understanding why it's bad to let wholesalers sell parts that compete with dealer parts.

I'm not saying that it's bad. What I meant to say is that the biggest backers of Right to Repair are parts wholesalers. The thinking is that if they can pass R2R in MA, then they will have the opportunity to sell more parts to the independents.

What R2R is trying to push now that they've changed their stance from "info not available" to "info too expensive" is legislation to regulate the pricing of the OEM tools and information. Do we really want legislation regulating price controls?

I checked out the websites of both sides here in MA:

www.righttorepair.org - specifically http://www.righttorepair.org/about/partners.aspx
and
www.nessara.org - specifically http://nessara.org/what_is_nessara.php

The former is mostly parts suppliers and a few trade organizations with the vast majority not based in MA in the R2R camp. The latter is all local MA independent shops.

Why are aftermarket parts suppliers in favor and independent shops not?

Mr_Shiftright

No I don't think you can buy the CVT belt from Audi. Maybe you could if you knew someone in Germany who could interface directly with the belt manufacturer, I don't know.

The reason for buying the belt is that it's the best shot, given the symptoms. Actually I recommended trying a type F fluid. I mean, they have nothing to lose at this point--a 2003 Audi A4 convertible with a slipping CVT is almost totaled vis a vis market value of a working one.

stever

Do we really want legislation regulating price controls?

I guess you have to weight that against price fixing/antitrust concerns (not to mention "unavailable at any price").

Mr_Shiftright

"The rich...are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life..." (Adam Smith)

True, but that hand is often in your pocket. :P

thecardoc3

The reason for buying the belt is that it's the best shot, given the symptoms. Actually I recommended trying a type F fluid.

Here is where we have a problem. You tell this to someone and get to have an assumed level of credibility, meanwhile someone with genuine training knows this to be totally incorrect, and when attempting to advise the customer properly, ends up getting treated like they don't know what they are doing......

Type F fluid is not compatable with CVT designs, it isn't even close.

I mean, they have nothing to lose at this point--a 2003 Audi A4 convertible with a slipping CVT is almost totaled vis a vis market value of a working one.

This is also a myth propagated by people who make their livings selling cars. Correctly repaired that 2003 will do everything the 2012 will, except come with 5-6 years of payments.

thecardoc3

Extrapolate that example to most of the rest of the simple stuff an owner could do, with some free manufacturer info, and that'll free up the real techs like you to work on the fun problems. Some of us are comfortable flashing chips, but if you aren't, go hire a tech.

You just refuse to comprehend, if the only thing we are supposed to be doing is the nightmares, then we either going to fail to be in business because there really aren't enough of them to sustain the shop, or else we would have to charge (and still get the work) enough to keep us viable, tooled and schooled on that tiny bit of work.

Not only do you want to have your cake and eat it too, you want everyone else's as well.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't agree with that. A person with a near-useless car that is worth only $8000 is faced with a $6500 repair because the CVT belt slips. Type F fluid is a last ditch, true, but it's not without reasoned thought, as it is a grippier fluid and the slippage is when the transmission is hot (works great when cold). What's the harm here? That the type F would cause a slipping transmission to...what....slip more? Well so what? it's done for anyway. The car just sits in a driveway and gathers dust. Wanna buy an $8000 German planter box? :P

Given that their only alternative is a rebuilt unit or (bad idea) a used unit, I don't see why advising them to spend $6500 on an $8000 car is a very good idea. The old trans won't be rebuilt in house--it's going for core value.

Besides, I checked in with an Audi-trained technician and he thought it was a good idea, given this particular car in this particular situation with this particular (near broke) owner.

Throwing money at things does work, I'll grant you that. Money has power, and to a certain degree, it can make you happier and it can solve problems.

But really, do you have your arm cut off before you try antibiotics?

You as a shop owner, can't put type F in this transmission, because of liabilities, but you could advise it as a "Hail mary" on a dying patient.

robr2

I guess you have to weight that against price fixing/antitrust concerns (not to mention "unavailable at any price").

Which IMO doesn't apply here. AFAIK, the OEM's aren't charging the aftermarket guys any higher price than the dealers for access. And they aren't limiting competition. The consumer is free to shop among the dealers for pricing and the independent shop can buy the access they need. They may not like the price...

stever

And we may not like being able to cut out the middleman and getting the info from the factory ourselves.

mmm, cake. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

maybe we could all compromise: as soon as a vehicle goes out of warranty, the consumer can download any repair info they need from the automaker's website--it can even be by yearly subscription. Or even pay factory technicians to analyze downloaded data from our cars (for those of us who can capture it).

stever

Speaking of car docs. :-)

"CarMD is a consumer tool designed to meet the needs of the average household. Our consumer customers can use CarMD to quick check an unlimited number of vehicles. They only need to register and run reports for a vehicle if they have a yellow or red LED. We limit it to registering three vehicles and running six reports per month because our data is so valuable. If we didn’t, we could potentially have every mechanic in North America using our data to help solve problems at little to no cost."

CarMD

Mr_Shiftright

Looks interesting. I'd love to try it out but not for $119. I'm disappointed that it won't let you reset the engine light. On German cars, this is almost a mandatory requirement, since there are so many false lights.

0patience

Personally, if you are going to spend that much, you might as well buy Davis Instrument's Carchip
It is more of a datalogger, than a code reader. But it will read and clear codes with other data.
But, for the money, there are so many other ones out there, such as Equus, Actron and AutoXray that have scantools that will do as much, but doesn't have the "online support" that the CarMD has.

I recently got a Android based code reader (Torque Pro), that was $5 plus $35 for the bluetooth connector. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but from the videos on youtube, it looks promising. Look up Torque Android Application on youtube.

As the technology moves faster, so is the tooling. If this app works as well as what I have seen, then I suspect that once people catch on that they can use their phones to plug into the vehicle, it will get interesting.