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Comments
Congrats to Amyash and pgump on their new 2002s. I'm sure you got deals. Also, congrats to bear and the first 2003 model! And kohall too! :-)
We bought a new car on Friday - a Subaru Legacy L. Could not resist the $17,827 price, for AWD, ABS, 4 disc brakes, keyless, cruise, carpets, A/C, power stuff. It's a 5 speed, wagon. We sold her 626 private party, which is how you'll make the most BTW. We made $1100 more than Edmunds used car quote.
I still have my Forester, and she didn't want to own 2. Also, she wanted a bigger cargo floor, and the Legacy's is long enough to fit the stroller and still have room to change a diaper. The Forester (and CR-V, which we test drove) did not.
She liked the CR-V, actually more than I did. I felt the interior was a bit on the cheap side, and it leaned too much. The engine is impressive, though. It would chirp the tires in 2nd gear, though I felt some torque steer. But the Legacy has a more useful cargo area, with a deep, wide floor, and cost less. Plus it felt more refined, more solid. The CR-V has a cavernous back seat though, so I can see the appeal if you car pool with a basketball team.
So now we have 2 Subies and a Miata.
Gotta check out a new Forester. I want major power, though, so I'll wait for a turbo, or even get a WRX wagon next time.
Nice to hear about the rear de-icer and the one touch open/close moonroof. Nice pluses.
-juice
One sentence to summarize on the '03: When the '03 is more refined, some drivers may still find more satisfaction with the '02.
We bought the car on May 4th. After all of the documentation stuff was done, my wife jumped to the drivers seat, inserted the key, started the car... what? Nothing happening! We were a bit nervous by now. What's wrong? She started the engine again. Darn, the engine had been running already! No joke here. '03 is this quiet at idle! After a while, we started to feel vibrations from the engine. Well, it's a big 4 banger engine afterall. Can't fault Subaru here.
You sit higher in the '03. The front hood does not slope down as much as CRV and RAV4's do so there will be a foot long dead spot in front of the car. Can be a problem when parking the car in a tight spot. All of the windows are big and bright. The rear view is excellent. Super easy to back out the car. RAV4 is a totally different story. Its rear window is like a tiny slit on a prison wall. Major turn-off. One main reason my wife dropped the RAV4. CRV's window is bigger yet not much better. Typical SUV problem, it looks like the opening at the other end of a tunnel. '03's C pillar is a little too wide for our taste. Not wide enough to block your view but it will be a good idea to pay more attention to your 4 o'clock.
I do not like the placement of the brake pedal. Moving it half an inch to the right will be good. My wife does not find anything wrong with its position though. I actually love the new AT shifter. The head feels right in my hand. Does not have any fragile feeling at all. Yes, it is easy to move from D to N but at the same time, D to 3 is a snap. Beats kicking down through the gas pedal. The AT switches gears reasonably quick. Yes, the gas pedal still feels a little touchy though not as bad as the 02s. Have not experienced the transmission lag problem yet because we have not done any hard launch. The lag problem probably is coming from the torque converter design. The fluid needs a higher pressure to drive the wheel. I will try Redline's AT fluid to see if there will be any improvement.
The engine... well, it is exactly the same 2.5L. The vibration has gone down a bit. thanks for the improved engine mount and better insulation. Terms like 'silky smooth,' 'elastic'...etc will never be used on this engine. It is not as rev eager and smooth as the CRV engine but definitely does not have the RAV4's annoying buzzy sound. I really like its torque band, combined with the new shfiter, the AT car should be able to handle most traffic conditions. Try to do the same downshifting from 4th gear to 3rd in a CRV! Man, I still have no idea how Honda engineers would come up this funny idea to put the shifter right up beside the central console!
Compared to the '02, the steering is lighter and more responsive. I was impressed with its good road feedbacks. You can't get this good with the RAV4 and CRV. I do feel the power assistant is too much at the highway speed. The steering will become overly sensitive. This is the only major complaint I have with the '03 so far. CRV's steering does feel more accurate and surer than '03s. I will rank it the best among the three(this does not mean CRV handles better). RAV4's steering is too quick and just gives you the false impression that the car is very nimble.
Now comes to the most important part: The handling!!! Well well.. after driving the car for a few miles, I immediately noticed how stiff the new chassis was! It was almost like driving a German car. Not quite there yet but definitely not your daily Corolla/Civic stuff. The chassis is solid, very solid. The car flew over the road like a tank. Another surprise: The suspension has become softer! Yep, Subaru has softened up the suspension. This means two things: First, with a stiff chassis, you will get a more comfortable ride, the whole chassis will keep most road irregularities under the floor. Second, inevitably, the '03 will have more body roll. If you want to have a spirited drive, probably a '02/MT will be a better choice. The '03 is more of a cruiser type, comfy and quiet. One thing to keep in mind though... softer suspension does not imply degradation of handling. Quite on the contrary, when I brought the car to the highway ramp, the car charged ahead with triumph. There was a little understeering but readily correctible. A small pull on the steering could immediately point the head to the right direction. Superb! Another interesting thing is the understeering will become less along with the speed increases. It's this the AWD thing? The rear end is very obedient, not like many front drive cars whose rear half has a life of its own. You gain a lot of confidence in this car. It is funny that a new Camry V6 tried to race with me and I easily out-turned it! I even had not pushed the car yet! Now I am wondering how this car will perform if I put on a new set of anti-roll bars...
After driving the '03, I really do not know how to describe the CRV... Mmm... Ok, it is a Civic anyway. The chassis has flex. You feel the bottom is overly exposed to the road, if you know what I mean. The car is jumpy, no '03s well controlled feeling. The car understeers, tilt...etc. I feel that Honda stretched the Civic chassis too much this time. To create the biggest interior space possible, Honda lifted up the cabin to create a flushed floor then moved the front seats and cockpit as forward as possible. Yes, you get a bigger cargo space but you know what have been sacrificed? Look at the steering column's position... the absurd glove box... the higher center of gravity ...etc. Be honest, if you want handling, at least try RAV4 first.
The brake is definitely better than '02 but I do not like the initial brake feeling. At the beginning it feels as if nothing was happening. RAV4 is at the other end of the spectrum. It is simply too touchy and sensitive. CRV's brake? Nothing much to talk about. Check Car&Driver's CRV test numbers then you will see.
At highway crusing speed, '03 is much quieter than '02. It is not a Camry yet, not even close. The Yoko tires are alright. Most road noises are confined beneath the floor, big thanks to the new chassis. The side mirror wind noise has faded away but the roof rack, especially the cross bars, have become the new source.
So is the '03 worth to get? Definitely, if you are in the market for a new compact SUV. The excellent new chassis, the handling, the comfort, the safety, the refinement...etc are a notch ab
Time has run up, I will talk about the interior later.
-bear
Excellent write-up! Thanks for composing such a detailed report. I read it over twice because there was so much there.
It's good to know that many of the advertised improvements in the 2003 were actually tangible. I felt the chassis was very good on my 98, but I can imagine it being even better as you wrote.
The entire Forester/Impreza line got quicker steering as you reported.
So when you wrote some drivers may still find more satisfaction with the '02 were you refering to the softer suspension? If so, I do agree with you that I would have prefered the older setup. Chances are more buyers would prefer the softer ride, however. A beefier rear sway bar should help.
I haven't tried the new CR-V, but I did note the body flex with the older model. At the Edmund's Live event, I took both the Forester and CR-V on the simulated "off-road" track. There was noticable chassis flex with the CR-V on the artificial hill with rocks. The Forester felt much more solid in comparison.
Ken
Good job.
ffsteve
Getting used to the new vehicle and found that it really is pretty zippy (agree 100% with the comprehensive review by "Bear").
After loading the 6 CD's into the dash (and wondering where they really all go?), I can't seem to find how to advance the current CD by an entire track. All I can figure out is that there is a fast forward knob that just moves you forward at some speed (5x?), but not whole tracks. I would appreciate a Subie Expert giving me a hand here....
I find that the Auto Trans does a kind of down shift as I take my foot off the gas pedal while approaching a corner. This is really neat, and sure to save on undue wear and tear on the brakes (unlike my asbestos eater conversion van!). I wonder if this is a feature or just what subies do?
I am also starting to grow fond of the gray metal looking dash. I originally was going to get the "wood kit" with the 2002 that I was almost to the alter with, but as mentioned in a previous message, that was another story.
Wondering if my "ez pass" electronic toll payer thingy will work if I place it in one of the sunglass holders? I really do not want to stick anything to the new car right now. Anyone who has experience with this, please let this group know. Also, sometimes the "heated windows" interfere with the ez pass as well. Wonder if the partially heated subie windows will foul up Mr. ez pass????
Finally, I sprung for the lug locks thinking that all midnight autoparts suppliers will most certainly see the nice new alum wheels on my subie and want to reappropriate them to another part of town. Well, I guess it would be a logical guess that somewhere in this car will reside the lug lock unlocker, else, the driver (me) will someday have a flat tire and not be able to change it because my unlocker is safe and sound in my garage somewhere. Wondering where a "good hiding place" would be so that I could find it, but a crook would not??
Many thanks for all your comments to this little note.
You mentioned you sit up higher in the '03 than in the '02. How much higher? Just a couple of inches (eye level, or ear level, if you will)?
Do you still sit lower than you would in a CR-V (relative to the road surface)?
Thanks!
Ciao!
Len
My advise is to purchase a Nissan, Honda or Toyota to anyone who is looking for a reliable vehicle to last them.
amgordo
Also my family has aproximately 8 subies a few are over 120K miles on them, most have at least 80K miles and no one has had any major problems with them, and I know a bunch of people with Honda, Toyotas and Nissans with problems. I guess you should have bought a Toyota Camry and gotten the dredded sludge problem, and had Toyota say it was YOUR fault for not changing the oil often enough. Yes very reliable.
-mike
Cat_and _bear - Nice report. That's the kind of detail that MT, C&D, etc.. cannot provide.
I guess I must of been lucky in the past because I have a Nissan(husband) and have owned a Honda, Toyota and a GM vehicle without having any problems.
"daniell": I just took my subie for an errand and wow, the "quick flick" did the trick in moving the cd fwd one whole track. I guess I better put down my Steven King book and read the subie manual for the next few nights!
One more thing of note. I ordered my new 2003 with the trailer hitch option (so I could use my bike rack) and am disappointed to find out that the toungue size is too small (I think the subie dealer installed a class 1, when I need a class 2). Here comes the first test of dealer satisfaction. I'll let you all know how it turns out....
-mike
I got, on average, 18-19 mpg...low as 17, high as 23. This seems really kinda low to me. I do city driving, but I also do a lot of highway driving too.
Does this seem low to anyone else? I know it is not the 10mpg that some big SUV hogs do, but I thought it should be better than that...even for city driving. Should I be bringing this up to my Subie tech next time I am in?
Thanks!
-kathy
98 Forester
Joe
As to the transmission. We have no data relative to the cause of the failure. We don't know what kind of transmission it is...do we? Amgordo has not said. We don't even know what the symptoms of the failure are. It might be a failure of the mechanics of the transmission. It might be a failure to maintain the transmission. How regularly has the car been serviced? Is it serviced according to the recommended schedule? If the car has not been in to be serviced, we don't really know if it is the transmission and not something else. And we don't know if it can be fixed and how much it will cost. It might be a relatively minor repair -- and as someone pointed out, it might be covered, at least in part by Subaru. I remember someone getting a new transmission out of Subaru after the expiration of warranty -- he made quite a to-do about it, and rightly so.
Finally, if co-workers want to get spooked by one person's car having a problem. Fine. But that is not very rational. If that happened on a regular basis, the used car lots would be swamped with every make car there is. And transmissions are not a weakness in Subies taken as a group -- no data to that effect in Consumer Reports at all.
-mike
You're quite welcome. My friend bought his 2000 Forester S at Marin Subaru (didn't know there was more than one) and enjoyed the experience. Many of the Bay Area dealerships sell for flat invoice + $200-300 pricing. I believe Carlsen Subaru started it and the rest are following suit to remain competitive. I don't know how to get in touch with a fleet manager, but for only several hundred over invoice, I wouldn't be too upset. Most places quote over the phone so call around and find out how much they're asking. Most places are willing to beat Carlsen.
Amgordo
Sorry to hear about your problems, but could you be a little more specific as to what exactly happened to your transmission? Have you tried working with a dealer to resolve the problem? Since you're just out of the powertrain warranty, there's a good chance Subaru might just cover the cost as a goodwill gesture.
As for the electrical problems, that's quite unusual. Subarus, along with other Japanese cars seldom have any major electrical problems. What specifically are you having issues with? Have you seen the dealer for this too?
I think the members here want to help -- we just need some more specifics.
Ken
As has been pointed out above, to indict a whole line of cars based on one case is unfair and is irrational. To be done with a whole line based on one case and problems atypical to that line of cars is irrational.
I had a bad '74 Volvo. Wouldn't be caught in one even now. Guess I'm irrational too :-)
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
OK, ready to take action? Call 800-SUBARU3. Tell them about your problem, plus give a whole history if there were early symptoms, particularly if they started before the 60k warranty limit. Get a case number. Even if they don't agree to do anything, you can get a case number. Maybe even ask if you can buy a Subaru Gold extended warranty after the fact, you never know.
Then e-mail Patti, pmickel@subaru.com. Tell her your whole story. Also keep us posted. Knowing a community is watching offers them an incentive to help you out in some way.
I'll admit it, words make you feel better, but actions will get the results you desire.
Another thing, and this is key - every manufacturer stumbles on occasion (or 3.3 million times in the case of Toyota), but their reaction is more important than anything. Toyota is covering the engines for 8 years, unlimited miles. Yes, they blamed owners, and that was awful, but at least in the end they paid up.
I really think you should call the 800 number, call Patti, exhaust all the avenues available to you. If after all that you are still unsatisfied, then it would be fair to tell your co-workers to sell their cars. But in my opinion you're not yet at that point.
-juice
Quiet, refined, softer - sounds right. I've driven an Outback Sport and would describe it that way, compared to the older ones.
EZ pass: check the instructions that came with it. Usually they give a specific height and location for those. It might not work in the sunglasses holder. Stick it on - you can always remove the glue guck with WD40 later.
Seat height - no, the CR-V is definitely higher. Feels more like sitting on a bar stool, the Forester is more chair-like.
Kathy: EPA city mpg is 21, so if you get 17-23 that's within the acceptable range. Just make sure you follow all the recommended maintenance intervals, and keep the tires pumped up.
-juice
This Sunday we took a trip to PA, and we noticed that some of the screws on the roof rack were coming loose and popping up. (Not a big deal)
What was a big deal, was that later that day we got stuck behind a traffic accident, and as the car started to get hot from the sun, we tried using the A/C and only hot air comes out. I called the dealership the next day and they told me that sometimes they forget to put a fuse or two in the car and that is probably what is wrong (Which is so reassuring, I wonder what else they forget)
Well, the fuse was there. I have to admit they took care of me right away, since the car was only a couple of weeks old, well these three service managers look at the car and can't seem to figure out what is wrong. Suddenly one of them sticks his finger in the engine and a spark flies out and he curse. He comes back with a insulated glove and snaps two parts of a plug together, WHILE THE CAR IS RUNNING. It seems that the A/C condensor wasn't plugged in.
The dealership is FREEHOLD SUBARU in Freehold,NJ. I don't think I am going to be going to them for service, something else might not work the next time. Has anyone else have any experience with them?
Steve
amgordo: that's the first vaccum canister failure I've heard of, and I read all the Subaru boards here.
I actually got up close and personal with mine when I installed my hitch, since you have to remove it and reinstall it. It's basically a plastic box, with air tight tubes running in and out. A loose tube would be one thing that can trigger a CEL.
The shifting and delay issues you mention were symptoms, so hopefully those were documented before the warranty was up.
-juice
Generally, if there's a problem with a line of cars they show up on the boards, i. e. Escape stalling, Santa Fe engine woes, Ranger engine woes (my CEL/02 problem and "marbling"), the incessant CEL lights that seem to go with a modern cars. Lots of cars seem to have sensor/air-fuel computer issues at some time or another: Escape, CRV come to mind instantly -- my Ranger problem, of course -- I'm sure there are/were others.
Oh, I just saw that GMC recalled 65,000 vehicles for potential fuel leaks -- that seems to be a GMC specialty.
Our 626 had a CEL and it turned out to be the O2 sensor. $220 for the part, ouch! High parts/repair prices are part of the reason we ditched the Mazda for a 2nd Subaru.
The CR-V was the most reliable car in CR's entire survey last year but you still find common complaints about check engine lights, in fact a couple of cases just came up in the last day or so. Check the thread, under SUVs.
-juice
If you do go back, let me know how it goes. I haven't been brave enough to try them yet. Will stop in to check out the '03 Forester, though, when they have a few.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Exactly, we all like to have stiff suspension to start if we want the car to go sporty. First time I tried a '02, I was so impressed with the way the suspension negociated a fat parking lot bumper, I forgot all about CRV, RAV4, or whatever at once. A '98/MT with beefier sway bars, a set of good tires should make the best handling SUV around. BMW X5? Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!
ffsteve,
Glad to know that my writing has been of some use to you.
kohall,
It depends on how much you ease off the gas. Many moderns ATs will do this downshift if you lift up the throttle before cornering.
wmquan,
The seat position... '03 is about one inch higher, probably one and half an inches. Numberwise this may not be much but it does open up the view a lot to you. CRV is still about 2 inches taller. 4 Runner and Explorer...etc are another half an inch up. I was surprised to find out that '03 was not much lower than Grand Cherokee though.
I feel that Honda has gone insane with the CRV design. On paper Forester and CRV have about the same ground clearance. The CRV number is very misleadning in reality. The rear double wishbone suspension's long arms will offset part of the clearance. Honda lifted up the whole cabin above the drivetrain to create a big interior space. If you check its rear seats, you will found out the floor is totally flat, i.e. the driving shaft, differential...etc are all under the floor. This will make the center of gravity dangerously high. Even you can compenate this design with a better suspension, still, I will never touch a car like this. No free lunch in this world. You have to pay the price for the height and bigger space.
dtauber,
Since you are a first time buyer, I will suggest you to do more research first. It is always good to pay several visits to dealers and testdrive the car to see if it is really for you. Fix your option list then check out the pricing list on the Van Bortel Subaru website. Van Bortel has a very interesting practice. For basic cars, you pay the invoice. They make money from the options. After you load the car with a few popular options, the price will still be ended up $400 or more over the real invoice price. Use Van Bortel's price as a reference and prepare to pay $100 more here in Bay Area due to the higher business cost...etc. I think you can just work with Marin Subaru first and see what kind of price you can get. Don't be scared off by dirty sales tricks and don't be fooled by smiling faces. The best prices I found are actually from Stevens Creek Subaru. As for looking for fleet managers, only big dealers with big volume do fleet sales. I am even not sure if Carlsen/Stevens Creek have a fleet manager. I do know that Mike Saunders is the final-say manager at Stevens Creek. Why not just call him directly, tell him that I send you there, and see what he will say?
-bear
-mike
amgordo -- I too, have never heard of a cracked vapor canister on the ATs. Subaru ATs are known to be quite robust. Is the dealer covering it under warranty?
Ken
-mike
Chuck
-mike
It is really refreshing to have such a pleasant experience. The dark side of customer service was recently experienced with my Honda Accord, which reported needed a $460 brake job. Well, $75 later paid to my corner garage for original equipment brake pads and it is off and running (and stopping). Sorry to hear some of the subie owners not having a good go of it. Better move to "Trail Town"!
New to this site which a Subaru salesman just told me about today. This is the 4th car dealership we've been to & he's the first one who's mentioned it....
Been looking at new cars for my mother. She had a 99 Saturn which neither one of us liked....very sluggish and too hard for her to physically get in and out of (she's 85) so at the end of the lease ...goodbye for good.
We've looked at the Forester which seems a lot easier to get in and out of.
Her main complaint actually is the 2 tone color scheme which she really doesn't like. We looked at monotone but she doesn't want a moonroof.
I do have some (probably basic) questions which I'd prefer to have answered by an actual owner vs car salesman...
1) How does this handle fully loaded? She does occasional antique shows and needs something that will be able to handle a heavy load. Since it's 4 cylinder, is it a case of having to turn off the air conditioner and "peddle as fast as you can" going up hills?
2) She's not too keen on the moonroof idea. She's afraid it will leak & how does having the moonroof open affect gas mileage and your ability to hear (both interior conversation and outside noises).
3) I love the sound of heated seats...is it worth the extra cost?
4)Are the tires that come with it all season or will we have to change them for winter (live in northeast)?
5)I currently drive a Caravan and cracked the axle when it was fully loaded (under warranty thankfully) as I was backing out of one of those annoying driveways that's flat but has a steep slanted easeway onto the street. Is the clearance on the Forester enough to handle this situation when car is loaded?
I'd appreciate any input you could give me on these subjects..thanks
Len