I leased an 2003 XS four weeks ago: 27.3K on the sticker. Love the car. Lease was well under $300 a month, 36 months, 15K miles a year.
Received the insurance premium update: my beater '91 Escort [used for commuting]: $513 a year; my 2000 Mercedes SUV: $542; and the Subaru? $696 a year!
I just called Hartford to see if they had the XS listed as the commute car. Nope.
I told the rep: "something's wrong." The Mercedes listed for 45K and has gadgetry galore. The XS is impressive but it's "less" car.
Rep had last word: "The premium reflects our experience with the Subaru."
I think the quote depends on what coverage you want and how much the deductable is - if you want collision, liability and comprehensive, it should be higher. Also, NJ and NY areas are way too high. e.g., Progressive, insweb.com do not do business in NJ at all. Thanks.
Mine are around $600 per year, for each (the Forester and Legacy), and I'm in a DC suburb plus I commute. That's with 100/300/100, $500 collision, $200 comprehensive, PIP, uninsured motorist. The works, basically.
Not to mention we actually had a claim about 3 years ago. So those rates will drop next month (finally).
The Miata is a little less because it gets fewer miles, but it's still in the $500 range.
I pay $968/6mo for the Trooper and SVX with 1 primary car, both listed for over 7500 miles, clean record, 100/300/100, 200 deductible, 0 deductible on glass and only 1 driver! And I live in east middle of nowhere Adirondacks!
Wow, guess I'm glad to live in the "big city" (Denver's still a pleasant cow town in my book, having grown up outside of Chicago).
We pay closer to 700 per year for the works. Colorado supposedly has one of the highest insurance costs in the nation though. Some blame that on no fault, but I think it has more to do with hail damage risk. We do have a lot of uninsured motorists on the road here, so the risk isn't spread as evenly as it should be -> drives rates up for those who do carry it.
There was a storm in the early 90's that drove quite a few insurance carriers out of the state.
We have Farmer's, and I'm very pleased on balance. My agent answers his phone on Sundays.
Checked his rates against Geico and AIG not too long ago, they were higher and didn't offer glass protection.
about Insurance rates... I pay $2000. a year in Philly for a '02 Ford Focus ZX3. Clean driving record, no kids, and a geezer. That's after shopping around. Location, location,location.....
Test drove a CR-V, Forester, Impreza 2.5 and a Hyundai Elantra GT. The GT was too buzzy but a very nice car. The CR-V felt pretty tippy. Loved both the Impreza which is my first choice but they only offer Financung for the Forester so at the moment that is it. I'm waiting to test the Ion when it comes out in Oct. Looking for price and function.
In general, higher octane fuel does not help you unless your engine is knocking. In other words, if you're running fine on 87, adding 91 isn't going to give you a boost in performance. In some cases, 91 may even hurt your performance. Octane measures the resistance of gas to pre-detonation (knock) and does not imply cleaner burning or higher efficiency.
However, engine needs can be specific so the only way to find out is to try it for yourself. If you're curious try a few tanks of a higher octane gas and see what happens to performance and milage.
Test drove a Forester today. Not bad, but have one concern. The brake pedel was extremely spongy. I could press it all the way to the floor without it strongly applying the brakes and there was a loud noise like the sound of air through an air pump. Is this a trait of all Foresters and is there any way to reduce/eliminate it?
It certainly is not characteristic of all Foresters. My '01 S had excellent brake feel (although slightly softer than most of my previous cars) and there was NO associated noise. BTW, it's not really considered proper form to post the same message on three boards. Thanx.
Well, the Forester may cost more to insure than the Mercedes, but at less than half the initial cost and with better mileage, it will certainly make up for it. I know I am comparing apples and truffles here, but value, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I don't know how reliable vincet1's Mercedes SUV is, but during its initial model year, this vehicle had the distinction of being the most unreliable vehicle by far in Consumer Reports surveys. If I recall correctly, the problem rate overall was 143% worse than average. Only the Jeep Cherokee came even close.
It may have improved now, but I would bet that the Forester will still be more reliable. Thus, it may be that Forester rates are higher because they spend more time on the road while some other vehicles spend more time in the shop :-).
I guess the point is that you have to look at the overall cost of ownership. One cost may well balance off another, and an owner may be willing to pay a bit more to get a better perceived value.
With older cars, there was no question that hihger octane fuel was a waste of money if there was no knock problem. With modern cars, it is a bit more complicated.
Because many (most?) cars have knock sensors, and because most cars have no ignition or fuel adjustments, it is possible that a badly calibrated or deteriorated ECU is cutting back ignition advance using regular fuel. Thus, there will be no knocking, but performance will be degraded. Switching to higher octane may give a bit more performance and/or fuel economy.
Also, there have been some scandals involving fuel that did not meet its stated octane rating. You may recall years ago the Getty case where they claimed that ALL of their fuel was premium. Not according to tests run by some local and state authorities, it wasn't.
Given the current propensity for cheating in business (Enron, for example, and a whole list of companies that are being sued by employees for programming their computers to cheat them out of overtime pay), fuel ratings may be suspect. But I am not sure that I want to pay 10% extra to make up for such possible shortcomings.
Know I know this will be a goofy question, but has anyone on this board ever heard of adding some sort of adhesive-backed panel to their mirrors that allow you to heat the mirrors by way of an interior switch?
I know aftermarket heated seats exist utilizing such technology, why not mirrors.
clayman: keep us posted. I've seen basic models just under $20k, and right about $20k with the automatic.
And keep in mind "basic" does not mean stripped, those include AWD, ABS, PW/PL/PS, cruise, keyless, CD, temp gauge, 2 odos, roof console, etc.
CR has had the trio of Forester, RAV4, and CR-V at the top of their ratings, both overall and reliability, since they came out. JD Power also has those same three at the top of their IQ study. Consistent good scores across different sources.
PN: you probably have to change the entire mirror housing if you want to add those. But just one question - why not spring for an XS and get that nice feature from the factory? It'll even clear the water off the mirror on a rainy day.
Axt: I would, but I've owned my 2003 X 5sp just over a month and the XS wasn't in my budget. A great ride nonetheless. Thanks though.
Kens: With the windows cracked, not a bad idea on a warmer day, but I was thinking more in terms of ice. In Ohio, we get some pretty difficult ice days and clearing those mirrors can be difficult.
I used to use the plastic bags that came from my daily newspaper. They were long and thin, and fit perfectly over the side mirrors. I'd keep them in the car for use whenever it was parked and there was a threat of freezing rain or sleet. Just slide them over the mirrors and close the door on them to keep them in place. Of course, that won't work if you're out driving in it. In that case, keeping the window slightly open helps. Anyway, it beats having to chisel the ice off the mirror, which could easily break it. By the way, having done exactly that so many times is why I'll never again buy a vehicle without heated mirrors.
Then you're like me, Phil. Get the basics and then customize it as you can afford to. I have a moonroof, hitch, 16" alloys, 6CD changer, etc.
But no heated mirror here. I wonder if the glass is more heat resistant on the XS? I believe the mirror housing on the XS is bigger, as is the mirror, perhaps to allow room for the heating element?
Hi folks, I just checked the Subaru website and they came out with another benefits credit card! I was dissapointed when they stopped the program with MBNA, but am glad now that SoA decided to continue the overall program with another bank (Chase). There is no detailed description, but it seems that "Subaru bucks" can be used for tune-ups, etc. just like the previous deal. The offer also starts with $25 if you sign up before the end of the month. Go Subaru!
At least he got the all new design part right. Most of the reviews I've seen on the '03 Forester call it a "freshening", as if it wasn't all new sheet metal from the ground up.
They claim they drove the XS. Maybe they didn't drive it very far !
besides me think Subie could make a LOT of money by making an extended wheelbase version of Forester, with more rear seat room, and maybe a third row seat, or at least enhanced cargo space?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am picturing something with the same width and height as the current vehicle, just a bit longer. Forester could definitely benefit from more legroom for rear seat passengers. The third row seat thing came from the general trend towards these things right now - I think it would be very popular, and I would love to see more foresters out there.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think it should be wider - and based on the Legacy chassis instead of the Impreza.
The Legacy is relatively narrow for a mid-sizer, so a long Forester would be even less proportional.
You gotta ask yourself how far can the Impreza chassis be stretched? If they had made the wheelbase an inch or two longer, fine, but beyond that I think they should switch to the mid-size platform.
Look at the TrailBlazer EXT - it looks way out of proportion. The Tahoe sells much better.
that is a logical progression: they made forester from impreza, five years ago now. So it must be time to make "adventurer" from legacy platform! Stretch it out tho - give us lots of knee room in the rear seats. It could compete with the likes of Pilot and Highlander, only maybe not be QUITE so large, particularly compared with the Pilot.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IMO they're pointless in suvs / wagons. If you need that much people carrying capacity a minivan makes far more sense. The cramped 3rd row seats that are so popular now really only offer the perception of 7-8 passenger capacity. The reality is that the seats eat up interior space, leave virtually no cargo capacity, require the skills of a contortionist to get in to, and are only suitable for midgets or pre-teenage adolescents.
Jeff is right; MB had a disaster on its hands with the 98-99 ML SUV. My 2K has been flawless, FWIW.
My question was re: insurance costs on the 03 Forester. It can't be whim that causes Hartford to charge substantially more for the Forester [same coverage] than for the MB. I wonder if the Foresters have been totaled at some rate higher than other vehicles? Stolen more often?
make some sense, but well hey, in four years i'll still have 4 midgets. i wouldn't complain if subaru took some sales away from chevy and ford a few years down the road. i agree that it is unrealistic, but we are looking at stars...
There are a couple of reasons to want the 3-row SUV. My wife will tell you that she doesn't WANT a Minivan (completely a perception thing and not logical in the least - so don't ask).
ALSO, a big point for me is AWD and ground clearance. I've had more than one occasion where I needed to climb a curb or something along those lines to get the Forester to where it could easily be loaded with heavy cargo. And AWD is AWD. We're all here and all own Subarus because of AWD. Nuff said.
Oh, and to pre-emptively answer the point - No, I don't want a Chevy Astro.
Wanting Subaru reliability and technology with 7-passenger seating is not too much to ask, IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Today I've seen another one on the road: Silver XS+. Drove next to it for several miles, to get a really good look. My poor Silvius looks kind of "frumpy" next to its sportier younger brother.
I plan to get a new one in 2004-2005 when Silvius hits 100K.
Comments
Received the insurance premium update: my beater '91 Escort [used for commuting]: $513 a year; my 2000 Mercedes SUV: $542; and the Subaru? $696 a year!
I just called Hartford to see if they had the XS listed as the commute car. Nope.
I told the rep: "something's wrong." The Mercedes listed for 45K and has gadgetry galore. The XS is impressive but it's "less" car.
Rep had last word: "The premium reflects our experience with the Subaru."
Yipes,
Vincent
-mike
Rates in PA are high, but I think Jersey is even worse. Here in DC they're also fairly high.
-juice
And those are for a non-commuting geezer with a great driving record.
Steve
Thanks.
Mine are around $600 per year, for each (the Forester and Legacy), and I'm in a DC suburb plus I commute. That's with 100/300/100, $500 collision, $200 comprehensive, PIP, uninsured motorist. The works, basically.
Not to mention we actually had a claim about 3 years ago. So those rates will drop next month (finally).
The Miata is a little less because it gets fewer miles, but it's still in the $500 range.
-juice
-mike
-juice
Just not married (I'll pay the higher rates cause it would cost more to be married! hee hee)
It's funny though how yours is so much less. I mean the town where my house is has like 4000 people! and is 60 miles from albany!
Oh well I find it real cheap anyway.
-mike
Shoot, you talk now, but I bet you'll have 5-6 bambinos running around the house, eventually. ;-)
-juice
We pay closer to 700 per year for the works. Colorado supposedly has one of the highest insurance costs in the nation though. Some blame that on no fault, but I think it has more to do with hail damage risk. We do have a lot of uninsured motorists on the road here, so the risk isn't spread as evenly as it should be -> drives rates up for those who do carry it.
There was a storm in the early 90's that drove quite a few insurance carriers out of the state.
We have Farmer's, and I'm very pleased on balance. My agent answers his phone on Sundays.
Checked his rates against Geico and AIG not too long ago, they were higher and didn't offer glass protection.
Bob
-mike
Bob
-Frank P.
-juice
-mike
are there any advantages or disadvantages to using higher octane fuel?
thanks in advance, jorge
I pay $2000. a year in Philly for a '02 Ford Focus ZX3. Clean driving record, no kids, and a geezer. That's after shopping around.
Location, location,location.....
Test drove a CR-V, Forester, Impreza 2.5 and a Hyundai Elantra GT.
The GT was too buzzy but a very nice car. The CR-V felt pretty tippy.
Loved both the Impreza which is my first choice but they only offer Financung for the Forester so at the moment that is it.
I'm waiting to test the Ion when it comes out in Oct. Looking for price and function.
In general, higher octane fuel does not help you unless your engine is knocking. In other words, if you're running fine on 87, adding 91 isn't going to give you a boost in performance. In some cases, 91 may even hurt your performance. Octane measures the resistance of gas to pre-detonation (knock) and does not imply cleaner burning or higher efficiency.
However, engine needs can be specific so the only way to find out is to try it for yourself. If you're curious try a few tanks of a higher octane gas and see what happens to performance and milage.
Ken
Thanks in advance.
Ross
I don't know how reliable vincet1's Mercedes SUV is, but during its initial model year, this vehicle had the distinction of being the most unreliable vehicle by far in Consumer Reports surveys. If I recall correctly, the problem rate overall was 143% worse than average. Only the Jeep Cherokee came even close.
It may have improved now, but I would bet that the Forester will still be more reliable. Thus, it may be that Forester rates are higher because they spend more time on the road while some other vehicles spend more time in the shop :-).
I guess the point is that you have to look at the overall cost of ownership. One cost may well balance off another, and an owner may be willing to pay a bit more to get a better perceived value.
Because many (most?) cars have knock sensors, and because most cars have no ignition or fuel adjustments, it is possible that a badly calibrated or deteriorated ECU is cutting back ignition advance using regular fuel. Thus, there will be no knocking, but performance will be degraded. Switching to higher octane may give a bit more performance and/or fuel economy.
Also, there have been some scandals involving fuel that did not meet its stated octane rating. You may recall years ago the Getty case where they claimed that ALL of their fuel was premium. Not according to tests run by some local and state authorities, it wasn't.
Given the current propensity for cheating in business (Enron, for example, and a whole list of companies that are being sued by employees for programming their computers to cheat them out of overtime pay), fuel ratings may be suspect. But I am not sure that I want to pay 10% extra to make up for such possible shortcomings.
Know I know this will be a goofy question, but has anyone on this board ever heard of adding some sort of adhesive-backed panel to their mirrors that allow you to heat the mirrors by way of an interior switch?
I know aftermarket heated seats exist utilizing such technology, why not mirrors.
And keep in mind "basic" does not mean stripped, those include AWD, ABS, PW/PL/PS, cruise, keyless, CD, temp gauge, 2 odos, roof console, etc.
CR has had the trio of Forester, RAV4, and CR-V at the top of their ratings, both overall and reliability, since they came out. JD Power also has those same three at the top of their IQ study. Consistent good scores across different sources.
PN: you probably have to change the entire mirror housing if you want to add those. But just one question - why not spring for an XS and get that nice feature from the factory? It'll even clear the water off the mirror on a rainy day.
-juice
Ken
Kens: With the windows cracked, not a bad idea on a warmer day, but I was thinking more in terms of ice. In Ohio, we get some pretty difficult ice days and clearing those mirrors can be difficult.
Phil
I used to use the plastic bags that came from my daily newspaper. They were long and thin, and fit perfectly over the side mirrors. I'd keep them in the car for use whenever it was parked and there was a threat of freezing rain or sleet. Just slide them over the mirrors and close the door on them to keep them in place. Of course, that won't work if you're out driving in it. In that case, keeping the window slightly open helps. Anyway, it beats having to chisel the ice off the mirror, which could easily break it. By the way, having done exactly that so many times is why I'll never again buy a vehicle without heated mirrors.
Len
But no heated mirror here. I wonder if the glass is more heat resistant on the XS? I believe the mirror housing on the XS is bigger, as is the mirror, perhaps to allow room for the heating element?
-juice
I just checked the Subaru website and they came out with another benefits credit card! I was dissapointed when they stopped the program with MBNA, but am glad now that SoA decided to continue the overall program with another bank (Chase). There is no detailed description, but it seems that "Subaru bucks" can be used for tune-ups, etc. just like the previous deal. The offer also starts with $25 if you sign up before the end of the month. Go Subaru!
They claim they drove the XS. Maybe they didn't drive it very far !
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Legacy is relatively narrow for a mid-sizer, so a long Forester would be even less proportional.
You gotta ask yourself how far can the Impreza chassis be stretched? If they had made the wheelbase an inch or two longer, fine, but beyond that I think they should switch to the mid-size platform.
Look at the TrailBlazer EXT - it looks way out of proportion. The Tahoe sells much better.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
jorge
-Frank P.
-mike
My question was re: insurance costs on the 03 Forester. It can't be whim that causes Hartford to charge substantially more for the Forester [same coverage] than for the MB. I wonder if the Foresters have been totaled at some rate higher than other vehicles? Stolen more often?
Vince
I have seen practical vehicles with 3 rows, but never one that was truly fun to drive. The challenge is to make it fun, not a school bus.
-juice
jorge
ALSO, a big point for me is AWD and ground clearance. I've had more than one occasion where I needed to climb a curb or something along those lines to get the Forester to where it could easily be loaded with heavy cargo. And AWD is AWD. We're all here and all own Subarus because of AWD. Nuff said.
Oh, and to pre-emptively answer the point - No, I don't want a Chevy Astro.
Wanting Subaru reliability and technology with 7-passenger seating is not too much to ask, IMHO.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
We have 2 kids and that'll be it for us, most likely, so I think I can escape the prison sentence of driving a school bus.
-juice
I plan to get a new one in 2004-2005 when Silvius hits 100K.
I'll wait 'til the turbos arrive, and then until initial demand calms down a bit. Once prices are near invoice levels, I'll start shopping.
Out of curiosity - how do folks like the WRX face-lift? I know Ken, Frank, and Ed are all looking closely at that vs. another Forester.
I like the new look, but I'd still go with a roomier Forester turbo.
-juice