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Comments
I'll bring it back by saying "I like the idea of the Forester XT. In fact, I like it so much that I will seriously consider a Forester XT when the time comes to replace my 2000 Forester S. Of course, I will still consider a WRX wagon or a higher-performance version of a non-Outback Legacy wagon, should the latter exist when I am ready to purchase. In any event it is highly likely I will be a repeat purchaser of another Subaru wagon or wagon-like vehicle."
Ed
Now, back on topic...
Bob
I am going to have to do more global travel on account of my job in the future. I do not want to be singled out as a target simply because I am an American. By the same token I am not going to pretend I am something other than an American because that is what I am. If being a potential target is the cost of being an American, I will have to accept that.
Now where was I? Oh yeah: "I like the idea of the Forester XT. In fact, I like it so much..."
Ed
Although, I'm starting to lean away from the WRX wagon with the XT and a possible Legacy turbo wagon.
Ken
The problem is that if Subaru tried to compete model-for-model with Toyota and Honda and VW in their key market segments, it would probably lose. Mazda and Nissan have enough trouble keeping up with them. Subaru has to stay in its alternative niche - even if it means losing a few sales - or it'll lose its identity altogether and fade away.
It's not unlike the problem Apple has in the PC market - if Apple tried to compete model-for-model with Dell, it would lose. Apple has to cater to its niche market or it loses its reason for existing altogether.
The problem with the "just buy the Legacy instead" reasoning is that I think a lot of people who like the Forester are not attracted to the Legacy, which makes a completely different styling statement. A lot of people cross-shop the Forester with the Passat rather than the Legacy, which they perceive as having dated styling inside and out. This could also explain why they might go to an Accord or Camry if they find that the Forester isn't quite roomy enough - they don't want to go to a bigger SUV, and they aren't attracted to the Legacy, so they settle for a roomy sedan from another manufacturer.
I think the current Legacy GT wagon is the best-looking Subaru of the lot, if not the best-looking Subaru ever built. I don't think it looks dated except maybe for its dashboard and interior appointments. If it had had more power than the Forester - regardless of number of cylinders, turbo or naturally aspirated - I think it would've won me. I liked the Forester's handling better than the GT wagon's. Although the GT has a lower center of gravity and better highway ride, I felt the Forester had a better power-to-weight ratio and was more nimble.
At the time of my purchase the Forester was the smallest car with a wagon body and the largest engine in the Subaru lineup. There was no WRX or H6-powered Outback, nor was there a wagon variant of the Impreza 2.5RS (which I may have considered as well had it existed).
I'm beginning to think that I don't think like the typical US vehicle buyer(?).
Ed
Thanks for listening,
CUSAFR
I agree 100%. The Legacy GT is a sweet looking vehicle and I think it would be perfect with a more powerful engine. Add some JDM style headlights and I'm sold!
I still like the old Legacy GT as well.
Ken
Let me see if I can contribute.
(1) Not every V6 (or H6) is alike. Tuning is everything. Look at the high-revving V6 in the A4 compared to some trucks or minivans. So, a V6 alone does not a towing engine make. In addition, the true limit is often in the weight, wheelbase, and tongue weight of the vehicle.
(2) The main reason most 4cyl. turbos are not suited as well for towing, compared to 6cyl. engines, peak hp being equal, is mostly - that this is exactly the only thing they share. For sporty driving, you want your torque to stay up there at high rpm. You don’t do that very often, so you don’t care if it is at 7000rpm or 7500rpm. For towing, you want the torque low down not only because you want to get going, but also because on an incline, you want your engine to make it at 3000rpm (vs. 6500rpm or whatever) because you know for that engine (but not necessarily for a 4cyl. engine), this is essential if you want it to last more than a couple of years.
(3) To summarize, whether an engine is suited for towing depends on the torque at low rpm and how reliable the engine is when driven at those or higher rpms under load. I submit a large displacement 4cyl. turbo can be as good as a small displacement V6 in this regard, but not as good as a high-displacement V6.
Having said that, the idea of a Forester as a major towing vehicle is distracting from its main qualities. There are other vehicles out there that will do a better job. This reminds me of the comparison between the Forester and Outback. “I want a Forester the size of the Outback, with a 6cyl. engine.” “Well, that would be the Outback.” “But I like the way it looks, and that it is smaller”. “It handles better because it is lighter and smaller”. “But why can’t they make it bigger, and still make it handle better, and get better mileage?”
OK, enough for tonight,
- D
I fit better in the front seats of the Forester than in the Outback. I may have above-average shoulders, but in the Outback my elbow and shoulder touch the glass, whereas I have plenty of space in the Forester.
So... if back seat forward space is not your primary concern, the Forester may be the better deal space-wise.
Glad to be able to confuse you,
- D
Well put. I, like many sales people (being a salesman deep down) would like to keep as many customers that look into a subaru in the subaru family. Hence my feeling that an H6/more rear seat space Forester is very important for retaining/reeling in customers.
As an example, Ed and several others above were considering a WRX wagon to replace their Foresters, which is great because they would be retained in the Subaru Family of vehicles, if the "new" Forester had an H6/more rear passenger room, then we would retain Ed and several others while bringing in others to buy the H6/roomier Forester. This would translate to more overall sales for Subaru.
-mike
Have I not already been talking about my interest in the Forester XT? I don't care if it doesn't have a 6, I'll take that turbo 4; I'm not as concerned about how I get more power as much as getting it. I also don't care about the rear leg room; it's not as if another adult or teenager is going to magically show up in my household overnight and besides, I'm only 5' 7". I think the Forester is just big enough for two adults and a preteen child; I look to juice's family pre-juice jr. for evidence of that. I hope I don't need the space of a Legacy; if I do I hope the Legacy has more power than what the 165hp EJ25 delivers. If that forces me into an H6 Outback - which I'd rather it not - so be it.
Right now, short of some catastrophic failure in my Forester that SoA does not stand behind, Subaru will most likely retain me.
Ed
Here's our game plan. We are going to drive both back to back (hopefully this Saturday morning, weather permitting.) This car will replace my truck, but since we will be buying an AT so she can drive it, I'm leaving much of the choice to her. I want her to decide which overall she finds the most drive able. I think for her, it's likely to be a contest between the extra room and smoothness of the Outback vs the shorter wheelbase nimbleness and higher seating visibility of the Forester.
After that is decided, I will take over and decide whether the power of the NA 2.5L is adequate enough for me. I'll have to decide whether we go with a 2003 and get a good deal and % incentives, or wait for more power, but at a higher cost. And cost is definitely an issue.
If she decides she likes the Forester, I'm really going to have a hard time resisting that 2.5XT! With the Outback, I'm not sure what's on the horizon power-wise (H-6?) so I may be inclined to take the 0% for 24 months and drive away happy.
Long term: in 2-4 years we'll replace the Crapalier with a turbo Legacy, and I'll get my manual shifter back;)
Randy
-mike
I hope when the time comes I will get enough seat time in the XT, WRX wagon and (maybe) hotter Legacy wagon to make an informed decision as to which would suit my needs best.
Apologies again,
Ed
I think it's clear that the Legacy and Forester are aimed at different style tastes, i.e. the Legacy/Outback is not just a bigger Forester. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
One of the reasons we went with the Forester was that it handles better, and has more power per pound. We didn't need the extra space in the rear seat. I was also attracted by the Forester's styling over the Outback's, although I like both wagons. It feels bigger inside.
If the Legacy came standard with more power, we might have gone for it, and I believe a lot of other people would too.
One of the problems Subaru faces is that they simply can't support 2-3 SUV styled vehicles, plus the Legacy/Outback/Baja, plus the Impreza/WRX.
I think a bigger Forester would cannibalize Outback sales big time. It would also face head-to-head competition from mid-size SUV's that truly are tow vehicles, weakening it's ability to draw new buyers to Subaru.
So I can understand wby Subaru positioned it the way they did, and has refused to "grow" it.
As to tow capacity, the 98-02 model meets our needs, barely, and the 03+ has been bumped with the MT. I'd like to see 2500# + 4 passengers + luggage for the AT as well. I'm not sure what folks mean by "true tow vehicle", but I suspect that lies outside of what the Forester can or should do.
With the XT, they've addressed the changing standards in the mini-suv segment for power and performance too.
Subaru is a builder of rally-bred AWD vehicles, not a truck maker, and not a brand that serves all segments. Some of those are compacts, some small SUV's, some sport sedans, some sport wagons. Where they currently loose a lot of customers is in 7-passenger category. People outgrow Subarus. Subaru will address that with the new SUW on a bigger platform.
Did I mention that I really like the XT ?
-brianV
I know that I'd like to upgrade/replace my current Outback with another Subaru. We've got a minivan, so room isn't a top priority on a replacement. I'd like something with more performance to it, but nothing like the STi. An automatic is preferred (by my dw even though this would be MY vehicle), but I wouldn't rule out a MT. A VDC has interested me since I like my current Outback, so that would be an easy move up. I've thought about the 'normal' Legacy wagon a bit, but would be more interested in it if it had the H6 or a 'hot' H4 (which we should find out in the coming weeks/months). And now the Forester comes up with an XT.
So, I'm not confused as to which model to persue, but merely I'm presented with plenty of choices now.
-Brian
Ed: well said, "smallest car with a wagon body and the largest engine". Exactly! You win eternal respect from your peers (or at least me) for that brilliant summary.
cusafr: I would have walked away from that dealer, too, but maybe gone to another Subaru dealer.
Randy: sounds like you have a game plan.
-juice
Boy is that Ford Mondeo a nice car. Why can't Ford just bring it over? The car service picked me up in one. Looked like 17" wheels (43.2 cm?) with blue lights in the foot wells and radio area. Felt like it handled very well. He picks me up this Sunday going back to the airport. Maybe he'll let me drive!
Greg
Asking if the current disagreement can destroy the oldest friendship we have.
I've heard rumors that Ford has been testing Mondeos here in the US, sightings of Mondeo estates in Michigan etc. They'd do well to offer those here.
Ed
Internet + Working = Miscommunications sometimes on here.
-mike
It's supposed to be greatly improved over the previous generation, and even that old one earned lots of praise from the press here. Quality control was always an issue, though.
A Mondeo wagon with AWD from the X Type would compete directly with the Legacy.
-juice
Interesting that the Mondeo, which is an excellent car and very popular in Europe, bombed here in Australia. Not sure why although I think pricing went against it.
Cood car, though
Cheers
Graham
Being a newbie to the AWD business, I see in the manual that the front tires are to be at 29 psi and the rears at 28-36 depending on load. I take it the goal of the tire pressure is to make the diameters of the tire identical front/back. This brings up a new question, has anyone noticed a mpg issue related to tires front/back that aren't identical in diameter?
-Frank P.
Craig
Thanks for any help.
Gene
Ken
Len
The only thing I can think of is tie baseball size fuzz ball to the latches. One color for each latch. Don't think it'll be much help in the dark.
My mom has trouble with doing the seat belts from the right side. That's on any car. When she rides with me, I'll assist her with the belt. If she rides in the back, she'll be on the left.
Personally, I find that locating the latch first instead of the belt in hand and then look for the latch makes the process easier.
-Dave
How do AWD owners handle this "extra" Yoko tire, does anyone try to bring it in to use or does it basically go the life of the car unused?
John
The spare on the OB is a donut (unfortunately), so you need to disable the AWD when it is installed (with a fuse). Some people will rotate in a full size spare and most will just let it sit in waiting.
Greg
-mike
-mike
my computer yesterday, and the light came back on after only 4.7
miles. Car is running great - no notice in gas mileage, it is not a
flashing light, so no misfires like it did last fall. I haven't had
the best of lick with the service departments in the Portland Metro
area, and would like to fix it myself, if only I had some way of
telling what was wrong.
Thanks, Amanda
Hello again everyone...
> >
> > I don't think I tightened my gas cap enough last night and my
check
> > engine light came on about the third short trip I took in it
after
> > that. After sitting overnight and driving 25 miles to work today,
> it
> > is still on. Any ideas on how long it takes to reset? Or
should I
> > reset the Computer?
> >
> > I've already had my O2 Sensor changed twice (once was
before the
> > recall) and I had to put in a new ignition coil($250) in in
> November
> > due to corrosion with a spark plug and coil.
> >
> > Almost 45K miles on my '01 L Manual that was put into
service in
> Aug
> > of 00 - quite proud of her so far!!! - Did awesome in the snow
-
> > handled better through the ruts than a HUGE F350 Crew
cab!!!
> >
> > Amanda
-mike
-Frank P.
I think Subaru says 29psi to keep the ride far from harsh, but I like the higher pressure for the handling and anti-hydroplaning it offers.
My current set of tires has 22k miles on them and they are wearing slowly and evenly, so I'm happy.
I do not include the spare in my tire rotation schedule. I've never used it, though I do check its pressure when I inflate the other 4.
Amanda: I would just let the dealer look at it at your next oil change, no rush.
-juice
Would you please explain how higher pressure *reduces* the chances of hydroplaning? My intuition leads to the opposite conclusion, and thus needs correction, but as yet I can't see just how. Thanks.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid52/pf1aeb3916f37cceb7cdc- 97b9640cfe68/fc9b9dad.jpg
Photo of Legacy Turbo motor
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/p81054d5e7d7c50a0e3eb- 8a3329d439bc/fca3875d.jpg
They appear to be very different. Any comments?
The battery seems farther back and diagonal, and the whipper fluid bottle moved to where the battery was, or is that the coolant reservoir?
Anyhow, don't look like what I'm accustom to seeing.
-Dave
Just wondering......
When we bought our 03 Forester last August, the best rate from Subaru was 5.9% for 60 months. During that same period, they were offering 3.9% on the leftover 02 models.
Subaru is now offering 3.9% for 60 months on 03 Foresters. I'm sure it will be higher when 04 models come out.
Craig
A higher psi will create a natural bulge in the center, one that can cut through more water than if the surface of the tire were flat.
Sounds nice in theory, any how. ;-)
The engines do appear completely different, particularly the shape of the intercooler, and the position of the engine in the engine bay. I'd love to see a 3rd photo - the Baja turbo's engine.
-juice
Cheers
Pat
-Frank P.