Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

gotb

I wondered why I got 23.5 MPG this week! I never got below 26MPG with my 2005 Forester X. I live in northern VA.

ateixeira

I love my torque wrench, got a click-type with a long shaft for leverage. I can remove those lug nuts without straining myself.

Must-have for any garage.

-juice

edunnett

lug nuts... that's what i've got the impact wrench for :-)

ateixeira

My kinda girl! :-)

-juice

once_for_all

still getting good mpg here in California...27.9 my last tank '03 XS.

John

leo2633

juice,

I understand you can damage a torque wrench by using it to loosen heavily tightened fasteners. I've had mine "slip" when using it in this manner. Like Elissa, I also use an impact wrench to loosen mine, as well as to run them down. I do the final tighteneing with the torque wrench.

Len

edunnett

I really do love these Subaru boards! So many knowledgeable people to talk to about cars! It's the highlight of my day checking out the posts here! I love the smart questions some people ask and the smart responses too. This is so much more interesting than the Honda boards for some reason! Thanks everyone for your Q and A posts!
Elissa

ateixeira

I also have one of those X shaped ones, with two hands you get lots of leverage and they spin on/off quickly.

-juice

jbye

Sounds like you're sitting on the Beltway in traffic too much.

Seriously, my '05 XS is routinely getting 28+ on the highway. Might want to check your tire pressure. Calls for about 29psi.

If anything, mileage should improve with less AC use in colder weather.

mjsnd80

I have an 03 XS 5-speed. Love the car! Excellent mileage, great in Maine snow, etc.

BUT --> it has the aluminum engine click-click-click clatter noise at start-up. It's MUCH worse in colder weather, and takes a good 5-10 minutes to go away.

The cause is the different temperatures inside the engine... which means the clattering parts aren't fitting together just right until the engine is hot. Then they quiet down.

Subaru claims this is "normal" and says it's doing no harm. BUT this "normal" occurance happens in less than half of their cars.

This has been going on for over a year now, and I've had it at the dealer many times over this.

I am meeting with a Subaru Regional Service person at my dealer's service dept in the next few days.

At this point, I would like to sell the car - but CANNOT with that noise! (If I was shopping for a used Forester and heard that at start-up, I would RUN in the opposite direction! Wouldn't you?)

Soooooo, I will be asking them to fix it; or buy it back. I don't want the full retail that I paid two years ago... but I DON'T want to be penalized for their engine defect either!

Any thoughts?
Advice?
Experience with Regional Service Reps?
Similar Engine Problems?
Difficulties at Resale time with this engine noise?

Thank you!!

Martin

ateixeira

Turn up the stereo. ;-)

But first ask them to agree to cover any future problems that stemmed from whatever caused this symptom.

Subaru is offering a guaranteed trade-in value on cars if you really can't live with it.

-juice

mjsnd80

Guaranteed Trade-In Value?

How does this work?

I suppose it has to be on another Subaru...

Does anyone have experience with, or details about this program?

Thank you!!

ateixeira

I got a mailer with some general info, but nothing that specific, really.

Doesn't hurt to ask them to appraise your car as a trade, I guess.

-juice

lfdal

Any thoughts? - It really is very common with the 2.5 NA engines. Generally piston slap, but I believe the engines use solid lifters as well and they're always good for some cold clatter. Anyone know for sure on the lifters?

Advice? - Get an oil analysis done and if it comes out okay, don't worry about it. If its chewing metal getting it fixed should be easily covered under warranty. If the noise is driving you nuts, get rid of the car. Its not worth the mental pain.

Experience with Regional Service Reps? - Not with Subaru's but not generally a fun time overall.

Similar Engine Problems? - See above. My wife's 03 OBW sounds like crap the first 5 minutes in the summer, the first 15 in the winter. Oil analysis says everything's fine, and she loves the car. She also doesn't know enough about engines to know good noises from bad noises. Ignorance can be bliss.

Difficulties at Resale time with this engine noise? - There was a posting a while back from someone who tried to trade their car in on another Subaru and the salesman tried to deduct several hundred dollars for the piston slap noise. The person then produced information about the number of times they'd complained about the problem at their dealers and to 1-800-Subaru. I seem to recall they gave them a better deal on the trade the next day or so.

Basically, people who know the brand won't be as concerned as those who don't.

HTH

Larry

bluesubie

Similar Engine Problems? - See above. My wife's 03 OBW sounds like crap the first 5 minutes in the summer, the first 15 in the winter. Oil analysis says everything's fine, and she loves the car.

Sounds like my situation with my wife's '99 OB. Engine sounds like a diesel for the first 10 minutes and it's annoying to my wife. I also did a UOA and it came back great.

I just switched to Castrol GTX Start Up, which contains ester basestocks that cling to the engine parts. The car seems a tad quieter and warms up quicker. Might all be in my head though. :-D

-Dennis

a_bum

My wife and I have decided our next car is going to be a Forester. We're are in no hurry, but she's had her Civic for ten years and is looking forward to a new car. We're hoping to wait until Subaru offers cash back on the Forester. Anyone know about how often Subaru puts that kind of offer on the table and usually for how much? I don't remember ever seeing anything in the neighborhood of the multiple thousands that Ford and GM offer, so maybe waiting isn't really that big a deal.

stever

You should monitor the Subaru Forester: Prices Paid & Buying Experience discussion as well.

Steve, Host

eric102

I think there is a $1,200 rebate on the Forester X right now, a little bit less on the other models.

Eric

rkw2

have a 1997 automatic Forester with about 117,000 miles. Car has been fairly well maintained. Last week I noticed that the temp indicator was approaching H. Brought in to the dealer. Put in new thermostat, flushed radiator and new radiator cap. Said all belts and fans were working properly. Next day same thing happened. THen I noticed that if i turned off the heater and drove less than 45 mph temp indicator stayed in normal range. Brought it back and they cleaned out the heating coil.Once again it hit the H. While driving tonight I noticed that when the heater was on, there was a lot of static on the radio. Once again indicator hit the H. Then when I turned the radio off the indicator was in the normal range. It appears to me that there may be some short some place that is causing teh car to overheat when the radio and/or heater are on. Anyone know of a fix.

Thanx

Rich

ducktapeguy

Are you losing coolant? Or is your coolant overflowing? Is the car really overheating or just the gauge that is going wild? I'd check the head gaskets, I'm surpised they didn't check for head gasket leaks, that's a common problem on the early foresters, with similar symptoms.

ateixeira

In most regions Subaru offers a dealer incentive rather than a rebate. The dealer can use that money for advertising or promotions, or give that discount to the buyers.

The $1200 dealer incentive is pretty solid, though, so now's a good time to buy IMO. Subaru doesn't do the $5000 rebate game, thankfully, because that would kill residuals.

Rich: see my response in the problems thread.

-juice

mckeown

Martin, use the Go to msg feature at the top of the page and go to msg 14782. I had slap on my 02 and the msg then tells the rest.

jbye

Might watch this for updates.

http://www.Autoweb.com/content/research/rebates/index.cfm/action/- rebatesByMake/make_vch/Subaru

Good Luck!

edunnett

Subaru puts the new model years out around May each year so starts to offer cash incentives to buyers to move the previous model years off the lots during the summer. This last year I watched the rebates go as high as $1500. Yes, the American makes rebate ridiculous amounts but that drives resale values down. So you either PAY thousands less now or you GET thousands less later when you're trying to sell the car and no one will pay what you're asking for it. If you can get a brand new Dodge Dakota for $17K after the $5000 rebate, why on earth would you pay anywhere near blue book for a three year old model selling for the same price? Honda does a great job of not offering cash incentives either and that keeps their resale really high too. Watch when your wife goes to sell her Civic....
Elissa

ateixeira

She's right. A month or two ago I calculated the book value on my Forester at $8600. A Jeep Grand Cherokee, same year and mileage, was $8000.

Yet it cost maybe $6-8 grand more when new. Jeep owners take a bath when it's time to sell.

Resale does matter, even 7 years down the road.

-juice

jbye

Might watch this for updates.

http://www.Autoweb.com/content/research/rebates/index.cfm/action/- rebatesByMake/make_vch/Subaru

Good Luck!

jnnt29

Martin i had the same problem with my 03 XS and met with the Regional Rep and was able to duplicate the noise. The Service Rep then took my Forester to the Regional center for more evaluation. They then instructed the Dealer to replace the Short block. That was last March. No noise since. I have a post in the Problems and Solutions Boards #3086. Hope that helps. JT

a_bum

Thanks everyone for the great information on cash rebates I went back to my dealer today and they are offering the 2.9% for 60 months in this region although it doesn't show on either Subaru's or Edmund's web pages. Over time, that is approx. comparable to a $1,000 rebate.

The dealership had an XS on the lot in the color we want with 12 miles and the only option is the moonroof. I'm really not a fan of moonroofs since I had one leak in a Saturn I had about 8 years ago. Then again, it was a Saturn so... What can I expect from a moonroof in a Subaru? We keep our cars for about 10 years, so I want to be comfortable that it will hold up with no leaking problems. You definitely get your moneys' worth with this moonroof. The salesman said that he will sell it at invoice since I really couldn't care less about the moonroof.

Hopefully this weekend, we'll be new Forester owners.

ateixeira

I'd say about half the Subies on the road nowadays have moonroofs. While problems are not unheard of, it's not common at all.

The XS Premium has a moonroof, so that one probably has the Premium package.

-juice

c_hunter

I have had 4 Subarus with a moonroof, and never had a problem. They have an excellent moonroof design.

Craig

gouldn

I'm an infrequent contributor to this board, but I offer periodic updates on my car ... for those considering buying one and holding onto it for awhile.

I bought a new 2001 S Premium Automatic in 2000. It now has 70K miles. During that time, I have used a dealer (Subaru of Santa Cruz) for all scheduled maintenance.

Impressions so far:

It still feels like a new car. I was skeptical on how well the cheapish looking interior would hold up, but there have been no problems. Even the flimsy cupholders have not given me any problems with lots of use.

The engine is still as strong as when I bought it, although I do occasionally hear very mild knocking under hilly terrian, it's been doing that since I bought it.

Routine maintance at the dealer has proven to be a bit more expenisve that I expected, but I cannot complain, since I always use the dealer!

Outside of routine maintenance I have needed front brakes .. and I'm currently dealing with warped rotors again. Early on, I had to replace the axle boots (under warranty). Other than the brakes, there has been no need for unscheduled mainteance larger than burnt out lights.

I am mostly happy with how the car drives. I think it's quite peppy, and I see no need for a turbo for my puroses. It handles nice, and is fun to drive. It's quite noisy, and I have to turn up the stereo high to drown out the road and tire noise.

In the snow (I don't go often), the car is very surefooted and inspires confidence.

I plan to keep mine until 90K, and then replace it. It will be interesting to see the depreciation at that point.

As usual, thanks to everybody on this board for all the helpful insights I have gained along the way.

I get about 24 mpg average.

Would I buy one again? Yes .. I am happy with the car.

joseph50

I read your update with interest, since I have much the same model and year.
I'm curious, did your dealer ever say that you needed your fuel injectors cleaned?
I've had mine to the dealer once or twice, and they got me on that one, at about 38,000 miles. I bit the bullet, but will never know I got hosed for almost 300 bucks.

kev_xt_owner

I've been lurking on here, mostly just reading the comments. The forums here played a large part in my testing and eventually purchasing my 2004 Forester XT. I can say my XT ownership experience has been awesome; there's never been a time that driving it hasn't been a pleasure.

After living for several years in South Carolina and Hawaii in the Navy, I've moved to Kansas where I purchased my XT. Knowing the weather here gets a bit colder and with the more frequent opportunities to visit various family members back in Iowa, I decided to install a remote starter. The good news is that after following the manufacturer's wiring guide for the Forester, the remote starter works great and I can use the remote starter key fob to unlock and lock the doors. The bad news is I really wish I knew where to tap into to get the same unlock/lock combination of actions as the normal keychain (that is, door lock movement, horn "chirps", and the flashing hazard lights. Has anyone else installed a remote starter that uses the normal keyless unlock/lock actions or have any wiring diagrams that help (or have any suggestions on where to obtain such diagrams?)

Oh, and I'm now one of the few who probably appreciates HAL as the remote starter+HAL combo can now get my XT to a more pleasant interior temperature before I even get in.

gouldn

No ... I've never been told to clean the fuel injectors. However I did go for a different upsell during the 60K ... had them do the front engine gasket while they had it opened up for the timing belt. In general I trut the Subaru of Santa Cruz ... they are about 20% cheaper than the ones near the Silicon Valley.

ateixeira

I'm at 70k also but it took me longer, mine's a '98.

-juice

grahampeters

G'day

Subaru in Australia recommend a dose of fuel injector cleaner in a full tank of petrol at each service. Depending on situations with fuel etc and experience of local conditions some dealers will leave a second bottle of cleaner in the car after service with recommendation to add it after about 3-4000 miles (half way between services).

I presume that this is a lot cheaper than an injector strip down and clean.

Cheers

Graham

a2jimw

I have just purchased a 2005 XS and expect to enjoy. I towed it behind my motorhome on the ground. I will do the same with my new XS. My Saturn did not accumulate towed mileage because I removed a fuse at Saturn's insistence. The dealer told me that the Subie WILL accumulate towed mileage. Anyone know if that is for sure and, if so, is there a solution?

mpgman

I'm pricing an 05 Forester X with automatic, after-market leather and a few other goodies like trailer hitch, cargo nets and floor liner, splash guards and armrest extension. I'm being quoted a low of 20,600 plus tax and tags after checking with 4 dealers. It sounds very competitive to me but I've never owned a Subie. No trade involved. I also want to get lease quotes but thought I'd nail down a purchase price first. What do you think of the price and any ideas on depreciation to figure a no money down, 3 yr/36k lease? Thanks.

c_hunter

Check on the Edmunds new-car section for the "invoice" pricing with those options. If you are paying at or below invoice (before any incentives) then it's a good deal. From that point, factor in any incentives for your area (Edmunds should also know about these).

Of course aftermarket leather is something you will have to price on your own.

Craig

mpgman

Thanks. The leather is being quoted at a grand. If the dealer does it they'll warranty it and the side air bags. Otherwise, I'm on my own for the sake of saving a few bucks. Is there a hold back with these and if so, how much?

suvt

Im on my way to hopefully purchase a 2004 Forester XT premium w/ leather.Its used w/ 22,600K Its now being offered @ 21,500. KBB said it has a retail value of 23,865. Edmunds says dealer retail of 24,187. New prices very high. This has all options I want in price range I can afford. Should I be looking for a better deal from dealer & are incentives or rebates given on used. Also in my research I come across the words sunroof & moonroof under options listed is there a difference!!? This one is described as having power sunroof Is this the large one Ive heard talk of? Im a bit confused. Thanks in advance for your reply! SUVT

jimmee_k

suvt -
It's been my experience that dealers seem to pay loan value (or less) and try to sell for retail. If you can get it in the middle of the two you should be doing all right (if the vehicle is in excellent shape). I recently bought a 2004 Forester XT new (manual trans, Non-premium) for 22,600. I really wanted the premium but just couldn't afford it. If there was an equivalent XT Premium on the lot it would have been a tough decision for me which to get given the price difference.

As for the sunroof/moonroof thing, I always thought moonroofs were glass and sunroofs were not. The premium has the big ol' glass moonroof.

skykeys

What is the difference in the way the two types of AWD (Continuous and Active) work? Is one really better then the other? I was reading a note in a Honda forum, where someone said that "certain Foresters" had what he described as "proactive" AWD, which could vary power to all wheels, and was more effective than the "reactive" AWD used by the CR-V and Escape. By "proactive", is he referring to Subaru's Active AWD? Also, is it fair to describe Continuous AWD as "reactive"? I may not have understood precisely what he was describing. But in any event, I'd like to know if there is any difference between the two types of AWD.

Thanks

a_bum

We purchased our new Forester XS Saturday and got a great deal thanks to the information I received on this board...

*$850 below factory invoice (unadvertised dealer cash) and 3.79% financing for 60 months (required $0 down) through Subaru financing (not a promotional rate)!

Knowing about Fitzmall made a big difference. I would have given them my business, but they didn't have a forester at their Clearwater, FL dealership that we liked. The pricing information from them gave me great leverage with a dealership about 30 miles from Fitzgerald.

mckeown

Active AWD waits for wheel slippage to occur to engage.
Subaru uses 2 different AWD approaches:
Manual transmission: Power is distributed evenly between the front and rear. When slippage is detected, power is then applied in the direction of less slippage, more traction. All done via a sealed viscious coupling in the tailshaft section of the transmission.
Automatic Transmission: Has an electronically controlled coupling which without signal runs in 'open' mode. That means normally the Automatic is mostly a front wheel drive vehicle. Sensors are in place on both sides of the coupling to detect changes in speed between the front and rear. The Transmission control module does this task. When it detects a change in ratio, it applies a signal and 'locks' the coupling so front and rear are turning at the same rate during this time. They stay locked until the next time the vehicle slows below either 7 or 10 mph. (some older Legecy's suffer from a backup/parking bind when this center coupling no longer releases requiring it to be replaced).
True there are a few, very few , conditions under which the standard (no lsd) can have 1 front wheel spinning and 1 rear wheel also, but this is the exception. The add a LSD on the rear of the S models and both rear wheels can have traction together. Here you are almost assured that with both rear and 1 front powered, you will be covered under all conditions.
This is a simple overview, there is more to each of these systems depending on conditions.

bluesubie

"This is a simple overview,..."

That's a simple overview? ;-)

A simple overview would be all of the various Subaru All Wheel Drive systems have some power to the front and rear wheels at all times. The CR-V system is 100% FWD until after slippage occurs. :-) Some more info here: http://www.subaru.com/allwheeldrive/ver2005/index.jsp

Even though the Auto is mostly FWD it still has 10-20% of power to the rears in normal operating mode, as opposed 0% to the rears in the CR-V.

-Dennis

c_hunter

Active AWD on the 4EAT will proactively transfer power forward on braking (to avoid dive) and aft on acceleration (to avoid squat). Both of these enhance traction and stability and will minimize possible slippage before it occurs. So that's the "proactive" aspect that skykeys was asking about. In my opinion, this is a very important part of what makes Subaru AWD different.

Of course the other thing is that the entire Subaru drivetrain is laid out for AWD from the get-go, with a longitudinal engine/transmission and the diffs and shafts lined up and balanced very nicely (ie, Subaru's "symmetrical" AWD). This is a far cry from the kludged FWD-based AWD systems most manufacturers offer (including Honda) where they tack on the AWD system to a transverse-engine FWD vehicle. The result, which we see in almost every Subaru, is very efficient packaging of the drivetrain, and lower CG when coupled with the Boxer engine's layout.

Craig

ateixeira

If leather is a grand then the well equipped X auto for $19.6k seems like a good value. The hitch is invaluable, I use mine often.

21.5k for that XT Premium is great, just check it out closely. Why'd they sell it so soon?

Nice thing about Subie AWD is they are engineered for full-time use, with a center differential that lets them work even on dry pavement.

-juice

mnf

What kind of system does the Lexus RX 300 have on them... Thanks

c_hunter

The RX 300 had a viscous center diff, nominally at 50/50 (like continuous AWD on Subarus). The Torsen rear diff option was dropped in 2000.

The RX330 lets the traction and stability control systems apportion torque (meaning it uses the brakes to clamp slipping wheels and force torque to the other wheels).

In all cases, it's a FWD based platform (based off the Camry).

Craig