Pontiac G8 vs BMW 3-Series vs Lexus IS 350
Is the new Pontiac G8, going to steal sales from the more traditional ELLPS sedans with it's big V8 power and luxurious interior for a fraction of the price ?
I personally think it will steal some sales from the others because not all people are worried about emblems and care more about the product.
Rocky
I personally think it will steal some sales from the others because not all people are worried about emblems and care more about the product.
Rocky
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Many's the pretender who has claimed the title before, only to eventually go back to his job in the rental car trade.
We'll have to wait till we get a chance to dance with this one a little before we start dumping our current heros.
Oh, and regarding:
I personally think it will steal some sales from the others because not all people are worried about emblems and care more about the product
You might want to ask some of the executives at Volkswagen about that. They have some recent experience on that point.
It won't in person. This car is essentially the Holden Commodore which was "World Car of the Year" I think.
Many's the pretender who has claimed the title before, only to eventually go back to his job in the rental car trade.
The G8, will not be a rental special because GM, is only going to import by demand for them.
We'll have to wait till we get a chance to dance with this one a little before we start dumping our current heros.
That is fair enough. I think you will respect it a lot. Your getting one hell of a lot of car for your dollar.
You might want to ask some of the executives at Volkswagen about that. They have some recent experience on that point.
Well VW, made a mistake by not giving the Passat more power. The "W" engine was a great one but VW made the mistake of not giving it more power via turbo charger. If the Passat would of made 320 hp. had a manual option, and perhaps a tighter sports suspension it would be more widely respected. I do think the current VW Passat is a respectable ELLPS car but it's sure not class leading. It's kinda like the Acura TL, it does nothing exceptionally well but does enough well to be desired. The one thing the Passat does very well is protecting it's occupants in crashes and that my friend you can't put a price tag on.
Rocky
Rocky
People care about the badge.
Nobody wanted a 70k Volkswagen. And it was a good one.
At that price point, why have the A8.
That was an Audi A8. Has Audi always bee prestigious ? I remember in the 80's they weren't all that special to own because they had lots of eletrical problems but I guess because they are German they will be forgiven easier. :confuse:
People care about the badge.
I respectfully disagree. People that have money in the bank don't near as much as someone who has every dime spent come pay day so he/she can say "look at me".
Nobody wanted a 70k Volkswagen. And it was a good one.
Well Volkswagen, customer service was ranked dead last a few years ago. It also was a rebadged Audi 8 and they did nothing really to distinguish them.
At that price point, why have the A8.
The Audi, had better customer service records and the A8 was arguable the better lookin' one of the two. Well in my eyes it was.
However this is suppose to be a G8 vs Lexus IS 350 & BMW 335i. The bottom line is this if someone is shopping for the best car in the $30K range they will buy the as loaded $32-33K G8. The base models of both the Lexus IS 350 and BMW 335i costs more dough. The base Lexus IS 350 is $3K more than a loaded G8. The BMW 335i cost's $38K but just like the Lexus, how many base models is either company going to produce because most folks will want at least some features.
Rocky
The Passat is a midsized car. The Pontiac is NOT an ELLPS--period. It's a full-sized sedan. It may even be a full-sized performance sedan. However, Pontiac is not nor has it ever been a luxury brand.
Wheels magazine here in Aus put it up against a 5 series Bimmer.
As I have said elsewhere here, It out handled, out grunted, out valued the Bimmer by a long way.
It was a v8 Bimmer, not a 6, against a v8 Calais.
The SS Commodore are selling like crazy here atm, I hope there are some left for you guys next year
-Brian
What ??????
You are comparing apples to oranges. Again allargon, is a badge more important to you than the product ? I know many ELLPS buyers are more worried about the emblem on their cars than what the car has in terms of quality, reliability, performance, etc. The Pontiac G8, clearly has a interior that is as good if not better than the Mercedes C class when it comes to design and touch. The BMW 335i's interior isn't much more luxurious than the G8's which should tell you something's wrong with this picture. Maybe the Bimmer and Merc are living to much off of past success ???? The G8 is a high performance RWD performance sedan that has enough luxury to be a ELLPS car but because it wears a Pontiac badge instead of a Lexus or BMW it won't get the credit it deserves. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be considred by cross shoppers looking for the best product for their dollar.
Now don't get me a wrong I do find the new BMW M3 to be quite attractive but by gosh how much is it going to cost ? Would I like to own a 08' BMW M3 ? Ya betchya !!! The last generation M3 didn't give the customer value like the mid to late 90's E36?
The Passat is a midsized car.
And ? The CTS, Acura TL, Infiniti G35 are more midsize so what's your point ?
The Pontiac is NOT an ELLPS--period.
I agree all because the badge is preventing it. The greatness of the product as I explained above says otherwise. It has as much if not more technology, quality, fit & finish, than some of the ELLPS cars I described above.
It may even be a full-sized performance sedan.
What ? This car is like 6 or 7 inches shorter than a current Grand Prix. That might be fullsize to BMW owners but not in the rest of the automotive world.
However, Pontiac is not nor has it ever been a luxury brand.
I agree. That isn't what I'm arguing. You are making this a brand war. I'm simpily comparing product not badges. If you step back for a momment and take off the badges then perhaps you could then do a fair comparo.
I personally am confident enough in myself that I don't need to wear other peoples names on my [non-permissible content removed] or have a certain badge on my car in order to make a fair judgement about it. I guess some people need the badge more than the product? The G8, perhaps offers the best overall value in this comparo of performance, luxury, reliability, fit and finish, a long with by far best in class value which you can take that to the bank.
Rocky
I had 2 Pontiac Grand Prix in my life. Nice cars. Now I can afford a BMW. Hope to get to the Ferrari/Bentley level real soon.
Why would I now buy a G8?????
Eye of the Tiger, Rock. Eye of the beholder!
I don't care about "Stinking Badges!" either. Get in the car and drive. Feel the difference. When I shop, I will always try US in the future to see how they are doing. Cadillac doesn't do it for me so last time, I left the edgy brand out.
Regards,
OW
Check out http://www.velocityjournal.com/journal/2008/pontiac/16827sp.html for G8 specs. The wheelbase is actually a good 2+" larger on the G8 than the current GXP. Length is about 6" shorter than the current GXP. Both width and height are a smidge more on the G8. Interior room is very similar as well.
For comparing to the 5 series, check out this http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison?styleid=100761595&styl- eid=100814243&styleid=100703682&styleid=100793075&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=- specs
The 5 series is actually shorter in length than the current GXP, but the wheelbase is a bit longer in the 5. Threw in the 3 series for reference and the Charger since it will likely be competing with the G8 as well.
-Brian
Rocky
My point in this comparo is to show us poor folks the G8 is a great ELLPS alternative without the badge but with a lot of goods. The Bimmer, is yes faster and probably handles better but it also costs thousands more just like the Lexus IS 350. The G8 is a drivers car with a great interior, lots of performance, for your buck. The Cadillac CTS, is all that and more. It has the badge and even more luxury. I'd love to own cars like your talkin' about like Ferrari's Aston Martins, Bentley's but even if I was that wealthy I'd never spend that kind of money on a car. The Cadillac XLR, Viper, Vette SS, would be as expensive as I'd go except I'd probably buy a mint Red 1994' Ferrari 512 TR my dream car. :shades:
Rocky
I am heartbroken that the US can not get out of it's own way in the automotive industry and spends way more cash developing bunker buster bombs that cost more than 10 years of all of Bently, Ferrari and Astin Martin Sales combined for a week of destruction in Iraq back in Dessert Storm.
Regards,
OW
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Let's get back on track, okay?
Good-bye Grand Prix. Slow sales for the G8 predicted. GTO gone. Just blend Pontiac and Buick and get it over with.
Real good stuff. Marketing genius. G6 now G8...meaningless. GM will merge with Chrysler to keep this thing going. General Chrysler... must be Custer's last brother!
Prices for this rear drive Grand Prix replacement should start just under $25,000 for a base V-6 model, about $27,000 for a bare-bones GT, and into the mid-$30,000 region for a loaded GT.
Regards,
OW
Because I have read many reviews on the Holden Commodore.
Rocky
Rocky
Pretty easy to look at specs on paper and say Pontiac will own the world. The problem with GM products is they all look great on paper until you own and drive them.
Just put all G cars under Buick and get it over with.
Regards,
OW
P.S. For the sake of the G8, we should hold off comment until actual experiences are known but I would NOT be too optimistic.
1. Well the G8, not only competes but does so with one of the best cars ever made when it comes to value.
Is this a fact or an opinion?
2. You get a 6-speed manual 56 more horses and if your riding in the back seat you don't have sit with your knees wrapped around your ears all for thousands less. :P
Meaning what?
3. The G8 interior rivals all in in the ELLPS segment but the G8 isn't just another Pontiac.
Fact or opinion? I guess that is like saying the 2010 M5 isn't just another BMW. :confuse
Just needlin'ya a bit there Rock. You really should wait until the next great GM thing hits the streets before claiming a new world order, though...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Wonder when you could order one, sight unseen. There's always people out there that do so. I need to drive it before I buy it.
-Brian
Rocky
Does anyone really see this bleeding stopping anytime soon? Is there any real changes that will turn around the slide?
I know the true answers but what do I really know? Just one thing...the trucks are OK and the C6 is great but the rest I would leave for distance shores. Too many great choices for it to end well for this once great but arrogant company.
The definition of insanity is expecting change without change.
Regards,
OW
Bills are being drafted to outlaw the UAW??? That will certainly help level the playing field...
I appreciate your allegiances to GM, but I really think that the fault lies within GM, not the stars... For YEARS AND YEARS they kept building the same terrible cars. Instead of improving interiors, upgrading engines, better build quality, etc. they just kept putting lipstick on J-car and X-car pigs. Sure, a core group of loyals kept buying the same ol' same ol'. But were they attracting new blood? The shrinking market share Magic 8 ball says, "No."
Personally, the arrogance of GM ticked me off to no end. Did they have some of the best engineering and design talent in the world? Yes. But I guess the Accountants union was stronger. They just kept building the same terrible cars year after year...
But, on paper, the future's looking a bit brighter. Mostly from what I've seen of the '08 CTS. Let's hope that history doesn't continue to repeat itself...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
laurasdada, The UAW aren't totally to blame. They do blame themselves for allowing idiot beancounter CEO's like Roger Smith, to let the curve go across the plate while GM, was caught looking. The UAW, promised recently they will play a bigger role on product launches and said they will play a role in signing off on it so bad cars do not make it to market causing a loss in jobs.
Rick Wagoner, is not the same old traditional CEO we've seen at GM. He knows GM, has the capability to build world class cars like the G8, and 08' CTS. The problem is their is a very unlevel playing field that needs some correction. Yes healthcare, is a major issue nowdays and yes GM, signed the UAW contracts to insure employees of GM get first class healthcare. The difference is GM, is 60-70 years older than Toyota, thus has a large retiree number it has to pay for. These obligations cost billions and instead of knocking GM, for paying these bills we should be proud of them as these folks will not be living off of your nickel when they are old like so many other americans. So I'd rather look at ways to cut healthcare costs in this country instead of griping about it. Toyota, in 15-20 years will face similar problems as more and more employees are elgible for retirement. I think a national healthcare plan is the only solution to get a grip on sky rocketing healthcare costs and fix a broken out of control system.
The other major issue as has been discussed is unfair trade policy's. Whether your a democrat, republican, independant, most reasonable folks recognize we have a MAJOR trade defecit problem that keeps growing each year. Foreign governments want to dump freely on our market their exports but put up barriers on our exports. China, for example won't let you sell automobiles their without a huge tariff thus company's like GM, have to build their products in China, instead of the ability to export U.S. built automobiles. As rep. Duncan Hunter (R) California
said U.S. manufactors are at a 74% disadvantage before anything is built. This is not fair IMHO.
The final major obstacle for domestic manufactors is currency manipulation. The Japanese yen is artficially manipulated by 38%. The Chinese Yaun is 40%. What this means is if Toyota builds a car in Japan, and GM, builds a car in america and all costs being equal their is anywhere between a $2,000 profit advantage on cars selling in teens. approx $3-6K profit advantage $20-35K range. A $12-13K profit advantage on luxury brands $60-70K. We are talking about billions in profits because the yen is artificially manipulated and the Japaense, as recent as last week said they thought the yen was valued to high and wanted to decrease it's value even more. Toyota, still imports 50% of their vehicles.
These are the REAL ISSUES that are affecting corporations like GM. Sure GM, can't fix it's past but that doesn't mean its future should be punished because of some bad management of the past. Rick Wagoner, is a good guy and has his heart in the right place. I think we should give him a level playing field to compete on and if GM, still fails they have no one else to blame but themselves. I however am very confident this new GM, will not make the mistakes of it's past and plenty of great cars like the G8 and 08' CTS will be launched over the next couple of years. Some of which we've already have spy photo's of and some we've already seen at auto shows like the 09' Camaro, Enclave, Corvette SS, Chevy Impala, Buick Velite, etc, etc, and the 2008 Pontiac G8's Zeta Architecture is the spring board for many new exciting RWD automobiles.
I just hope more american's will be willing to forgive GM's past and give GM, another try in the future. The 2008' Pontiac G8' is an exciting car for those optomistic about GM's return to greatness to take for a test drive. I grew up in a UAW-GM, family and even I and my family now can say that GM, has finally brought automobiles to the market they are proud to build and can be confident on reccommending one to family and friends. Trust me this was a concern in the past.
Just my $0.02 laurasdada, it's nice to talk to ya and hopefully we can have more nice discussions like this one in the future.
Now back to the G8 vs IS350 & BMW 3 series
Rocky
Not sure how nationalizing healthcare can reduce healthcare cost, without essentially letting the sick to die without adquate care. Nationalizing healthcare is not going to suddenly produce a couple million slave healthcare workers that can render service for next to nothing. If the pay is not there, people simply do not enter the healthcare field; if the large number immigrant nurses and doctors and nursing and medical students are banned as a consequence of the nationalization, the supply of heathcare providers will be even more limited. The problem with high healthcare cost is two fold: not enough people are willing to do it, and too much subsidized money chasing what few providers are out there. The manufacturers should never have joined the ranks of subsizers for healthcare. Workers should take care of their own healthcare needs, and as a consequence will use healthcare much more judiciously. Yes, some may argue that other countries have nationl healthcare . . . wonder why almost all the leaders of other countries, when they get really sick, they seek treatment in the US? When the citizenry are wards of the state, they are serfs of the state, as is the case of many countries; only the elite in those countries can hop on a plane and get treatment in the US. Not sure why we want to make this country just like that. BTW, it's not because American doctors are naturally smarter; the most talented doctors all over the world tend to immigrate to the US!
The bit about China slapping huge import tarrif on cars is simply untrue, at least since 2005, when it joined WTO. For what it's worth, GM was lobbying to keep the old tarrifs in place so its factories there could have an advantage.
Currency manipulation is another fig leaf. If Yen and Yuan were not pegged to a range vis. Dollar, those currencies would go to near-zero simply because their population have little faith in their own currency. Would you keep your life savings in a fiat currency printed by a non-transparent government? So does that mean democratic nations have a natural disadvantage in trade? Not at all. Think about it, making cars is a tremendously polluting process. Our system of relatively non-interventionist government is what keeps the faith of the world capital market in the US; that's what enables us to enjoy some cars without having to deal with the pollution of carmaking.
Put another way, if I got into a Cadillac CTS, and felt what I felt in December '06, I would have purchased the CTS.
To me, there is no product the U.S. offers that is even close what you can get from Japan, Europe and Korea. Wait until China gets going!
It's going to be a very bumpy ride for GM. The company could have been in WAY better shape if it opened it's eys long ago in the 80's when Japan began to offer top quality.
You know the rest 'cause it's history.
I still have a real bad tast in my mouth.
Again, take the CTS. Looks bad to me. I can sketch a car on paper that looks much better.
Bottom line. If the 3 or even the G had a GM badge, the competition would be designing to beat the combination.
Regards,
OW
Rocky
And this is coming from someone who hopes the G8 is the real deal. Too bad we had to rebadge an Aussie car to do it. But the engineers in the U.S. can't develop a decent car...then so be it.
I do believe the 08 CTS will be a huge winner though.
What ? The interior is a left-side drive Holden Commodore. Sure the color of leather which was ugly anyways in yellow and 20 inch tires won't make it into production yet but the HSV/GXP version will have 20's. Scaled back I think not !!!! Where are you getting your head filled with this hyperbole at ?
I'm a bit nervous of what they will do the G8. After seeing the G8 interior at the autoshows, I have a feeling that we will all be disappointed with what the production version will look like.
Again who is telling you this hyperbole. Got a link of proof ? Sure the interior color won't make it or the 20's but everything else is Holden Commodore production ready. :confuse:
Go check out the Holden Commodores on YouTube and Holden.com and their you will see a Holden interior which like the GTO's will be the same, only left-hand side for U.S. market
WOW....... :confuse:
Rocky
Really, the show car had 19" wheels and some skirting and whatnot. That won't make production, maybe on GXP version. Otherwise, as Rocky said, the G8 we've seen at the shows and on the web should be quite similar.
-Brian
Rocky
Rocky
-Brian
Rocky
BMW 550i vs VE Calais V8 vs Benz E500 comparison.
Lot of reading but very well written article.
http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/2358840.aspx
Rocky