I'm not a defender. I just use common sense. If the oil in 27 out of 200,000 CR-V's causes fires, I don't see what the hoopla is about. Obviously there was enough data that shows it wasn't a simple "oil leak" that caused the fires or there would be a recall. It wasn't a defect in the design of the motor, or there will be a recall. It was shown to be improper oil change procedures. Just as if you go to the dentist and they screw up your teeth due to improper procedure, you don't sue GOD, you sue the dentist.
Honda volutarily recalled the all V6 transmissions in the fleet. That shows that they take a proactive approach when they find they have a problem.
I own a 2003 SI and an 04 Odyssey. I also own a 04 Accord EX-L but I'm dumping it due to the tranny issues, even though we aren't having any. That was the final straw since we wanted to get rid of it for a 5 speed anyway.
Just a little bit nervous about having my first oil change on my CRV. It's due now but I have a little trip to make first. Does anyone know if any certain engine size had more problems with fires than others?
I am looking at buying a new(for me, 99-03) car in the next 4-6 months. I've narrowed my choices down to a CRV or RAV4. My research thus far places them in nearly a dead heat. Anyone out there with knowldege or experience to help sway my vote either way? Thanks
Honestly, I don't think you will find an objective opinion here. You'll find people who are furious at Honda at this moment over the car burning flap...or those people like isellhondas who lives and breathes Hondas and other Honda defenders who despise Toyota.
As a person who test driven both the Rav4 and CR-V and done extensive research, there's no clear winner. But as a CR-V owner, if I knew then what I know now...I'd go with the Rav4.
Comparing the two, I don't think you can go wrong with either. If power is important to you, make sure you pick one of the newer models, as both the CRV & RAV4 made improvements in power. How are the local dealers in your area? I tend to favor Hondas over Toyotas simply because the local Toyota dealer is a royal pain (and I'm being nice). Both vehicles went through a design change in the year range you're looking, so you're actually comparing four different vehicles. Use all the research you did as a good direction and starting point, but make sure you test drive both thoroughly (old & new design) and pick the one that suits YOU, not some reviewer in a magazine.
I own a '99 CRV and if I were in the market again for a compact SUV, I'd pick a low mileage 2001 CRV. Simply beacuse it's the last year of that model design, which I'm happy with. Mine has been rock solid, just a couple annoyances. It's easy to do the maintenance myself. I've got 96K miles and all I've done is scheduled maintenance, one set of tires, a battery, and two brake jobs.
During my first trip to the Honda dealer with my 2003 CRV (in for a for a recall repair), there was a display in the parts department with Honda filters and some of the filter wrenches. Since I use the small Honda filter (A02,) and I had not found the perfect fitting wrench I bought it. It looked right. However, when I returned home the filter wrench was slightly too big for the A02 filter, so I returned it. A asked the parts guy why it didn't fit and he said that Honda was recommending a slightly larger filter now, and that they were no longer using the A02 in the shop. The filter he showed me was slightly longer and just a little wider in diameter. The guy said it would fit.
Also, in examining the A02 I noticed that the gasket free turns in the channel of the filter body and can be easily pulled out.
Johnny, I did notice that I was losing a major FM station at a point going into the Poconos (before I had previously lost it in my Accord). Around town, I don't have a problem.
piglet, it depends on your needs. I found I needed a roomier back seat for tall relatives (CR-V) and I really like the cargo room the V gives me when seats are folded up. I found the MT of the V a bit smoother than the Rav's MT. Drive them both, determine your needs, you can't go wrong with your choice. Good luck!
Both good cars and both good choices. I would sit in the back seat of the RAV-4 before making my decision. They have VERY little legroom. Otherwise, great cars, just like CRV's.
It's not "sooooooooooo Picky" changing the oil on a CRV. It's not picky at all. Just like any other car.
After removing the old oil filter, simply look at it to make sure the old gasket didn't stick on the mounting plate as they sometimes do on ALL cars. Take a shop rag and wipe off the mounting plate.
Apply a thin film of oil on the new gasket and install the filter making sure it's tightened properly.
Nothing to it unless someone gets careless or in too much of a hurry!
I'm still thinking about the bananas-and-cookies idea to replace the engine oil completely. Are those flammable? )
Oil filter relocator - yes, these exist. In fact they're sold for the Miata for a different reason - access. The filter is on the side of the block, under the intake (not the hot exhaust side), and it's kind of hard to reach. The kit moves the oil filter to a more accessible position, closer to the bottom of the engine I believe.
extech: 12 minutes for an oil change? That's kind of squeezing the techs, and *that* may be the real problem - if you have to rush, and Honda is the one that determined it should take just 12 minutes, well, mistakes are more likely when you're in a hurry.
I mean, you have to drive the car in, put it on a lift, raise it carefully, drain, remove the oil filter, clean the area thoroughly, pre-fill the oil filter, oil the new gasket, double-check that the old gasket is on the old filter, recycle the oil drained and the stuff in the old filter, replace the oil filter, torque the drain plug to specifications, refill, check the oil level, top off if necessary, lower the car, start it up to test it, and fill in the paper work. In 12 minutes.
I can change my oil quickly, but I don't think I can do it in 12 minutes, even with rhino ramps. And I'm not doing any paper work, plus I recycle the oil later, and I'm not including that amount of time.
Is Honda's pressure on the techs to finish in 12 minutes the real problem here? Just throwing that out there for thought.
Does anyone have any information about the 2005 CR-V? What changes in features are expected, especially safety features? What is expected regarding pricing? Thanks.
Figure 300,000 03/04 CR-Vs. Figure 3 oil changes each (some many more, some less). That's almost ONE MILLION oil changes and somehow 27 make you think this is a major problem with the vehicle, not with the techs?
... maybe because Honda recommends the first oil change at 10K miles (and 10K miles thereafter also) and few 2003's are even ready for their second oil change yet, much less the 2004's? Figure you drive like the average person and put on 12K miles per year and you bought the first 2003 CR-V that rolled of the assembly line in November 2002 - you would only just THIS MONTH be ready for your SECOND oil change. So I expect some of the 2003's to have problems with oil leaks and fires when they get their second oil change. We shall see...
who were careless and that is why these 'few' cars (that we know of so far) caught fire. I still do not ever recall hearing of this issue on other makes - even Hondas but forget all that.
If I were Honda I'd think I would have:
1) Immediately send a TSB for my techs to be especially carefull when changing the oil.
2) Designed a new filer or gasket or design to allow for the occasional human error that may occur when changing oil so it does not result in a fire; allbeit one car or one thousand. Quietly implement such a change as well.
3) Cover the expense under warranty and give those very 'few' affected a new vehicle thus keeping the whole situation quiet.
4) Thank the lord no one was hurt.
Instead they just stick with the finicky design, and blame the techs. Which costs more in th end?
Oh yea, does this mean the independent shops will now have to be so overly carefull when they change the oil that they will have to charge more for CRVs? Will the independents soon refuse to service them? How will this affect the reputation. I wonder how it affects insurance?
I think this is a really simple issue. Technically Honda may be correct that it is the tech's fault. But only because of some design issue that makes changing the oil on the CRV more particular than the norm. Hopefully that issue can be corected in a manner that gives the tech a margin of error that every other make and model appears to allow.
The second issue is reputation. It does not take much to besmerch your reputation when you are on the top. Whether desreved or not. You should always be on the look out to protect it.
Again I have no doubt the CRV is a great vehicle. ( I must check out these tranny issues though) My issue here is how these large corps appear arrogant when there is such an issue as the one being discussed.
Those poor techs have TWELVE minutes to do the entire job. Give them a break. Who determines 12 minutes is adequate to do the job thoroughly and safely?
Give them 18 minutes so they can do it right, even if you have to charge a tad more.
Have to agree with a couple of your points. I guess it's not a bad idea to remind people of what should be obvious.
1. Don't run red lights
2. Make sure you remove the old gasket material.
I don't think it's a "finicky design". I just think Honda figured the people changing the oil were smart enough to do it right. These are no different than any other car. This is NOT Honda's fault!
You are right about reputation. People tend to fix on and amplify what is bad. Human nature.
And CRV's have no "transmission issues". The cars that do have issues are very limited in actual problems.
Emmasadaddy - Try this link. There's well-informed speculation, and there's just wishful thinking. This comes from a source that is typically well-informed.
I guess I am ahead of the crowd. I bought my EX-03 in May 03 and got 27.6K on my odometer already. I did 5 o/c and ready for 6th. (I do o/c every 5K). After Sabrina's fire I always double check for leaks after changing filter. I did not have any problems - I am very happy with my CR-V EX 03.
I've been changing the oil in all the cars I've owned for the last 15 years. That line up includes an '84 Subaru GL, '93 Honda Civic, '01 Subaru Forester, '01 Dodge Dakota, '04 Subaru Forester, '86 Honda Civic Wagon.... I have never had an oil leak after I've changed the oil. I have never double-gasketed the filters. I have never crimped a filter. I have never had any problems. But to be honest, I'm terrified to be liable for anything that might go wrong after changing the '04 CR-V's oil. I don't think I will do the oil on this car myself for fear of an oil leak that I may be unable to detect and that may cause a bit of charring to car, home, life. I'd rather give a Honda dealership that liability (and of course, check their work). While my attitude has always been "if you want it done right do it yourself" in this case Honda's reaction scares me to the point where I prefer "if something could go wrong, let it be the the other guy's fault". Kizhe, you are a brave person. elissa
I just bought a CRV EX 2004 and was wondering if anyone could please tell me if the door egde guards are worth it? Thank you, JN ( sorry to change the subject)
"I'd rather give a Honda dealership that liability (and of course, check their work)."
Yeah, that's what I would do. But why did you buy that Dakota among all those fine dependable automobiles ? I gave up American since 1980s, never looked back.
This was posted on the NHTSA site today: MAkes it all worth it...READ THE LAST LINE Oops, Honda didn't count this one. Considering it looks like this O/C was done close to the 9th at a dealer, he obviously didn't get Honda's letter, because surely he would have done it right. "Defective filter"...
HAVING JUST HAD THE FIRST OIL CHANGE PERFORMED ON MY 2004 HONDA CR-V, I WAS ONLY A FEW BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE DEALERSHIP WHICH PERFORMED THE OIL CHANGE (HANOVER HONDA IN HANOVER, PA) WHEN SMOKE STARTED POURING OUT FROM UNDER THE HOOD AND THROUGH THE AIR CONDITIONING VENTS. I MANAGED TO GET THE VEHICLE OFF THE STREET AND THE IGNITION SWITCHED OFF WITHIN SECONDS OF THE LOW OIL WARNING LIGHT COMING ON. I WAS TOLD BY THE ASSISTANT SERVICE MANAGER THAT IT APPEARED THE OIL FILTER WAS DEFECTIVE. AFTER HEARING REPORTS IN THE NEWS (ON JULY 9, 2004) OF OTHER CR-V OWNER WHO EXPERIENCED FIRES IN THEIR VEHICLES THAT SEEMED TO ORIGINATE WITH THE OIL FILTER, I WANTED TO FILE THIS REPORT WITH NHTSA.
who said anything about being a major problem? You are so blinded you can't see the common denominator 03-04 models. How many cr-v's has honda sold since 1997? Why are we just now hearing about the fires and limited to 03-04 models? I am not here to bash honda as I drive a 02 model. I just find it real odd, why the fires are only happening to 03-04 models? It seems the only one who is totally cluess and lives in a honda perfect world is you.
Sabrina: Thank you for your post 12932. I always suspected that defective filters was part of the problem here. icvci: I understand that the odds of having a defective filter is very low but, as you see, that happens also. I heard horror stories about bad filters on other autos which resulted in oil loss but no fires (again Honda fault). Edunnet: I am not "brave", actually people are brave who trust Beaves/Buttheads "grease-monkeys", who must finish there job in 12 minutes. Quick o/c job is an oxymoron. - you suppose to leave oil drip as long as you can afford (in time) - I leave it drip overnight. If you did your own o/c and have the skills for it - continue to do it! All in your own hands. In case o/filter is bad (which is unlikely) double check for leaks after test drive.
A defective oil filter?? To be perfectly honest, I've never seen a defective oil filter. Maybe that was the asst. service mgr. saying that, rather than admitting his service tech. messed up? Who knows? Glad no one was hurt in that fire, and I'd be curious who (if anyone) covered the cost of replacing that CRV.
Actually I do not live in a Honda perfect world. There are always going to be problems with particular brands, particular cars in that brand, particular years in that brand and even particular cars made at particular times in particular years. Honda itself is making this a MAJOR problem by not nipping the issue in the bud. That is what burns me up. I am telling you, Toyota did the same thiing with the sludge. Very few cars in reality were affected (or so they claim) yet now if you go to another 'brand' and also mention you are shopping Toyota you'll likely hear about sludge. The last thing you want to do do is give your competitor, especially one who is already chasing you, ammuniition. This is what Honda is doing. I really do not care if only 03s and 04s alone are affected...if own I those years! I am not stupid. If these issues were NOT prior to the 03 model year then something has changed. Unless you subscribe to that fact that the techs only screw up on Honda CRVs from 03 and 04. Rectify the situation in a manner that does not cause the tech to need to 100% all of the time or risk a resulting fire. Thats all I am saying.
As far as the trannys go I was reffereing to Odessey van problems that appear to be occurring. I can not say for sure what the deal is with the trannys but if you look in some of the other minivan forums they are being mentioned.
If these issues were NOT prior to the 03 model year then something has changed.
Yes something DID change, THE ENTIRE VEHICLE!!!!!!!!!! Geesh! Haven't you seen an older CR-V on the road? It's different. Different exterior. Different interior. And a different engine. Of course something changed!!!
And I do subscribe to the fact that this is an issue that only affects vehicles worked on by buffoons. I have never had an oil filter leak in 15 years of doing my own oil changes. Never. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Ya know you can blow up your car if you don't jump the battery correctly. Who's fault would that be? Yours for not knowing how to do it or the manufacturers for making sure you couldn't do it?
Sloppy, incorrect oil changes can cause fires in many other cars. It has been linked here earlier. If you do a little research you can find that many cars are damaged after oil changes.
Yes, I know. But people keep asking about vehicles since 97. I have no idea why no 02s have burned. Maybe it was luck? The NHTSA report had 35 reported filter problems and 22 resulted in fire. So, the filter can fail without burning the vehicle. Probably depends on the rate of flow, direction of flow and temperature of the vehicle. All of which are completely dependent on how poor the oil change was.
If you overload a circuit in your home and catch it on fire, who is to blame? You or the manufacturer of the appliance? Or maybe the home builder?
How about dryer ducting? Lots of people burn their houses down every year by using flexible ducting. Yet it is still available and people still use it. Even though consumer groups and fire departments preach the hazards. Should the dryer manufacturer be held accountable for making a dryer that fits the flexible duct?
Comments
Honda volutarily recalled the all V6 transmissions in the fleet. That shows that they take a proactive approach when they find they have a problem.
They have voluntarily recalled parts things not even this important when they find design defects.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/may02/052302b.asp
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/may99/051299b.html
I own a 2003 SI and an 04 Odyssey. I also own a 04 Accord EX-L but I'm dumping it due to the tranny issues, even though we aren't having any. That was the final straw since we wanted to get rid of it for a 5 speed anyway.
As a person who test driven both the Rav4 and CR-V and done extensive research, there's no clear winner. But as a CR-V owner, if I knew then what I know now...I'd go with the Rav4.
I own a '99 CRV and if I were in the market again for a compact SUV, I'd pick a low mileage 2001 CRV. Simply beacuse it's the last year of that model design, which I'm happy with. Mine has been rock solid, just a couple annoyances. It's easy to do the maintenance myself. I've got 96K miles and all I've done is scheduled maintenance, one set of tires, a battery, and two brake jobs.
Also, in examining the A02 I noticed that the gasket free turns in the channel of the filter body and can be easily pulled out.
Investigation continues!
Steve, Host
After removing the old oil filter, simply look at it to make sure the old gasket didn't stick on the mounting plate as they sometimes do on ALL cars. Take a shop rag and wipe off the mounting plate.
Apply a thin film of oil on the new gasket and install the filter making sure it's tightened properly.
Nothing to it unless someone gets careless or in too much of a hurry!
Oil filter relocator - yes, these exist. In fact they're sold for the Miata for a different reason - access. The filter is on the side of the block, under the intake (not the hot exhaust side), and it's kind of hard to reach. The kit moves the oil filter to a more accessible position, closer to the bottom of the engine I believe.
extech: 12 minutes for an oil change? That's kind of squeezing the techs, and *that* may be the real problem - if you have to rush, and Honda is the one that determined it should take just 12 minutes, well, mistakes are more likely when you're in a hurry.
I mean, you have to drive the car in, put it on a lift, raise it carefully, drain, remove the oil filter, clean the area thoroughly, pre-fill the oil filter, oil the new gasket, double-check that the old gasket is on the old filter, recycle the oil drained and the stuff in the old filter, replace the oil filter, torque the drain plug to specifications, refill, check the oil level, top off if necessary, lower the car, start it up to test it, and fill in the paper work. In 12 minutes.
I can change my oil quickly, but I don't think I can do it in 12 minutes, even with rhino ramps. And I'm not doing any paper work, plus I recycle the oil later, and I'm not including that amount of time.
Is Honda's pressure on the techs to finish in 12 minutes the real problem here? Just throwing that out there for thought.
-juice
Namely, the oil filter itself, since not all Hondas use the same one, and the drain plug gasket, which should be replaced at each oil change.
-juice
Norne - With the percentages we are talking about here, it is very possible that the 2002 models escaped problems because of dumb luck.
That's a nice perfect world you live in.
-juice
If I were Honda I'd think I would have:
1) Immediately send a TSB for my techs to be especially carefull when changing the oil.
2) Designed a new filer or gasket or design to allow for the occasional human error that may occur when changing oil so it does not result in a fire; allbeit one car or one thousand. Quietly implement such a change as well.
3) Cover the expense under warranty and give those very 'few' affected a new vehicle thus keeping the whole situation quiet.
4) Thank the lord no one was hurt.
Instead they just stick with the finicky design, and blame the techs. Which costs more in th end?
Oh yea, does this mean the independent shops will now have to be so overly carefull when they change the oil that they will have to charge more for CRVs? Will the independents soon refuse to service them? How will this affect the reputation. I wonder how it affects insurance?
I think this is a really simple issue. Technically Honda may be correct that it is the tech's fault. But only because of some design issue that makes changing the oil on the CRV more particular than the norm. Hopefully that issue can be corected in a manner that gives the tech a margin of error that every other make and model appears to allow.
The second issue is reputation. It does not take much to besmerch your reputation when you are on the top. Whether desreved or not. You should always be on the look out to protect it.
Again I have no doubt the CRV is a great vehicle. ( I must check out these tranny issues though) My issue here is how these large corps appear arrogant when there is such an issue as the one being discussed.
Give them 18 minutes so they can do it right, even if you have to charge a tad more.
-juice
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/recall24_20040224.htm
1. Don't run red lights
2. Make sure you remove the old gasket material.
I don't think it's a "finicky design". I just think Honda figured the people changing the oil were smart enough to do it right. These are no different than any other car. This is NOT Honda's fault!
You are right about reputation. People tend to fix on and amplify what is bad. Human nature.
And CRV's have no "transmission issues". The cars that do have issues are very limited in actual problems.
varmint Apr 29, 2004 10:25am
I did 5 o/c and ready for 6th. (I do o/c every 5K). After Sabrina's fire I always double check for leaks after changing filter. I did not have any problems - I am very happy with my CR-V EX 03.
elissa
Thank you,
JN
( sorry to change the subject)
Yeah, that's what I would do. But why did you buy that Dakota among all those fine dependable automobiles ? I gave up American since 1980s, never looked back.
HAVING JUST HAD THE FIRST OIL CHANGE PERFORMED ON MY 2004 HONDA CR-V, I WAS ONLY A FEW BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE DEALERSHIP WHICH PERFORMED THE OIL CHANGE (HANOVER HONDA IN HANOVER, PA) WHEN SMOKE STARTED POURING OUT FROM UNDER THE HOOD AND THROUGH THE AIR CONDITIONING VENTS. I MANAGED TO GET THE VEHICLE OFF THE STREET AND THE IGNITION SWITCHED OFF WITHIN SECONDS OF THE LOW OIL WARNING LIGHT COMING ON. I WAS TOLD BY THE ASSISTANT SERVICE MANAGER THAT IT APPEARED THE OIL FILTER WAS DEFECTIVE. AFTER HEARING REPORTS IN THE NEWS (ON JULY 9, 2004) OF OTHER CR-V OWNER WHO EXPERIENCED FIRES IN THEIR VEHICLES THAT SEEMED TO ORIGINATE WITH THE OIL FILTER, I WANTED TO FILE THIS REPORT WITH NHTSA.
Thanks for the info regarding Door Edge Guards...
much appreciated.
JN
Steve, Host
Clueless? Because I'm not hysterical over 35 botched oil changes? LOL
icvci: I understand that the odds of having a defective filter is very low but, as you see, that happens also. I heard horror stories about bad filters on other autos which resulted in oil loss but no fires (again Honda fault).
Edunnet: I am not "brave", actually people are brave who trust Beaves/Buttheads "grease-monkeys", who must finish there job in 12 minutes.
Quick o/c job is an oxymoron. - you suppose to leave oil drip as long as you can afford (in time) - I leave it drip overnight. If you did your own o/c and have the skills for it - continue to do it! All in your own hands. In case o/filter is bad (which is unlikely) double check for leaks after test drive.
As far as the trannys go I was reffereing to Odessey van problems that appear to be occurring. I can not say for sure what the deal is with the trannys but if you look in some of the other minivan forums they are being mentioned.
Again, its all perception.
Yes something DID change, THE ENTIRE VEHICLE!!!!!!!!!! Geesh! Haven't you seen an older CR-V on the road? It's different. Different exterior. Different interior. And a different engine. Of course something changed!!!
And I do subscribe to the fact that this is an issue that only affects vehicles worked on by buffoons. I have never had an oil filter leak in 15 years of doing my own oil changes. Never. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Ya know you can blow up your car if you don't jump the battery correctly. Who's fault would that be? Yours for not knowing how to do it or the manufacturers for making sure you couldn't do it?
If you overload a circuit in your home and catch it on fire, who is to blame? You or the manufacturer of the appliance? Or maybe the home builder?
How about dryer ducting? Lots of people burn their houses down every year by using flexible ducting. Yet it is still available and people still use it. Even though consumer groups and fire departments preach the hazards. Should the dryer manufacturer be held accountable for making a dryer that fits the flexible duct?