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Comments
-juice
Honda know exactly what was changed in 03/04 models, where the CAT is located , etc.
According to my [#12872] "... Again, mark my words, I believe there is something MORE to the problem then simply a "double gasket"... "
And the misapplied oil filter is technician error. You can't sue/blame [insert automaker here] for driver error. The same for technician error.
The examples you gave were of driver error, and therefore meaningless in this discussion. I could slip on ice and smash my head into my CR-V, and that too is meaningless in this discussion.
I'm not looking to blame/sue anyone - I'm looking for a straight, complete and easily understood explanation ... and I haven't heard one yet.
The best conjecture that I can come up with, based on the many posts I've read on this forum and other forums, is this:
1. In the redesign of the CR-V in 2003, something (maybe the catalytic converter?) was moved and is now closer to the oil filter.
2. Oil filters installed on new vehicles are put on very tightly, perhaps too tightly (not unique to Hondas).
3. Given the proximity of a source of high heat (the catalytic converter?), the gasket on the original filter sticks/melts and doesn't come off as easily as it perhaps should.
4. Honda technicians, going through same process they follow for all oil changes, either miss the original gasket and/or leave small parts of that original gasket in place, putting the new oil filter & gasket on top. (plenty of mistakes can be made with a simple oil change, and again this is not unique to Hondas)
5. Oil leaks/gushes shortly after the oil change, hits the source of high heat (catalytic converter?) and causes a fire.
I don't think these fires - only CR-Vs, only 2003 & 2004 model years, and only after the first oil change - can be attributed solely to technician error. I think it's also a problem with design. But again, I'm not looking to assign blame. I just want to hear a solid explanation of why it has happened in the past as well as be assured it won't happen to my CR-V next month when it goes to the dealer for its first oil change.
cybernut04: " I just want to hear a solid explanation of why it has happened .... ".
You would never get it until somebody (God forbid) will get hurt. Honda will extend "investigation" indefinitely until fatal accident and then, all of the sudden, will find the problem and make a recall. It is nothing to do with technology - it is politics and legal issues. I know it's sounds cynical, but that's probably what will happen.
http://www.claimsmag.com/Issues/Mar04/tech_notes.asp
Of the many causes of fires in motor vehicles, oil leakage ranks among the most common. Engine oil, transmission oil, and hydraulic oil all are flammable liquids easily ignited by hot surfaces or electrical means under certain conditions.
The article was NOT written by Honda. LOL
"The examples you gave were of driver error, and therefore meaningless in this discussion. I could slip on ice and smash my head into my CR-V, and that too is meaningless in this discussion."
I think I pointed that out in a later post. My point was that error is error and defect is defect. You don't recall a vehicle for an error.
Let's go down the list...
1.May be. But it wouldn't that cause fires at any time. If it happens after oil leakage, then why did the oil leak?
2.That is also not a design defect. Too tightly is not a defect of design.
3.Good one. Might be a good theory. But again, why not before oil change. And why not on all CRV's.
4.And it's not unique to Honda techs. Refer to the article linked above.
5.Technician error.
I would like a solid answer too. But the solid answer may be the one we have. Any defect in the procedure or part might cause a fire.
"Honda will extend "investigation" indefinitely until fatal accident"
Could you point out any time where Honda has done this and what you base this statement on? In recent history I have never known Honda to take that approach on problem with the potential to be fatal.
Second question: Do you believe that bad accident (when someone got hurt) here is OUT OF QUESTION?
You can sue anyone for anything in the US (until you get thrown out of court anyway) - my recall is fuzzy but unintended acceleration of Audis comes to mind.
There's an example of driver error that cost the manufacturer big bucks. And I think it was driver error, assuming that the brake/gas pedals weren't too close together.
Steve, Host
Again, I just don't believe it's quite that clean-cut. The CR-V is, at a minimum, fire-prone.
I do have a question about the filter position - does it face down, or to the side? I think some spill is almost inevitable.
The filter on my Subaru faces down and is located at the bottom, far from any hot exhaust. IMO this is the ideal location. Still, I poke the bottom of the filter with a screw driver to empty the oil from the filter itself, before I remove it, to minimize spills. Even so I end up having to wipe the area when I'm done.
My Miata? Honestly, that's a mess. The oil filter is on the side of the block and it's hard enough to reach, let alone change it without spilling a drop. I'm sure if it were a CR-V that it would have caught fire by now. I wipe it but there's just no way short of removing the entire engine to guarantee not one drop stayed behind.
Spills are going to happen with certain designs, I don't think that can ever be 100% inevitable.
So even if you think the CR-V's design is not technically a "defect", it is poor, error-prone, and fire-prone.
A good design is fault-tolerant. Not just free of defect.
-juice
.
Regardless of whether it's technician error or a design defect (and I'm keeping an impartial view here), this problem is Honda's.
.
They have to clear up this image. And their current stance of simply reminding dealers to do the oil change right doesn't stack up.
Remember the Ford Explorer tire blowouts? If I recall correctly, the number of problems with Explorers a couple of years ago was statistically insignificant compared to the number of Ford Explorers sold. Same probably could be said for any number of problems that led to major recalls.
Personally, I'm a little skeptical about the 'motor oil causing the fire' explanation. How many of us have had old 'beater' cars that hemorrhaged oil, but never caught fire?
Honda needs to own this and take corrective action, before someone is seriously injured, or worse.
I think I pointed that out in a later post. My point was that error is error and defect is defect. You don't recall a vehicle for an error.
Okay. I didn't say anything about a recall, but okay.
Let's go down the list...
1.May be. But it wouldn't that cause fires at any time. If it happens after oil leakage, then why did the oil leak?
Huh? I didn't say anything in #1 about the oil leaking. All I said was the CR-V was redesigned in 2003, and maybe (that's where "conjecture" comes in) something that gets REAL hot was moved closer to the oil filter. That's all I said in #1.
2.That is also not a design defect. Too tightly is not a defect of design.
Yes ... and did I say it was a design defect? No, I didn't.
3.Good one. Might be a good theory. But again, why not before oil change. And why not on all CRV's.
That's all it is - a theory. But, "why not before oil change?" If you mean, why aren't there fires before an oil change, my theory is that the oil filter is installed VERY tightly and there's no oil spill until after the first oil change. Why not on all CR-Vs? Good question. My answer is, it would happen on all CR-Vs but the design changed with the 2003 model, and son-of-a-gun, the fires started with the 2003 model.
4.And it's not unique to Honda techs. Refer to the article linked above.
Did I say anywhere that it was unique to Honda technicians? However, Honda's "solution" to this is to make sure Honda technicians are more careful. Do Honda technicians do all oil changes for all 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs?
5.Technician error.
Partially - the part about the oil leaking, maybe. But the technician doesn't have anything to do with the position of the oil filter or that thing that gets REAL hot.
I would like a solid answer too. But the solid answer may be the one we have. Any defect in the procedure or part might cause a fire.
Yes, any defect in the procedure or part or design or a combination of these may have caused these fires.
"Honda will extend "investigation" indefinitely until fatal accident" Could you point out any time where Honda has done this and what you base this statement on? In recent history I have never known Honda to take that approach on problem with the potential to be fatal.
I think the current situation qualifies. ""We consulted with Honda. Honda concluded it was a technician's error, and they have taken steps to make sure service technicians who work on this vehicle understand that they need to be particularly diligent when they replace the oil filter," NHTSA spokesman Rae Tyson said."
So oil filters will be correctly installed by Honda technicians, and there won't be a problem. But God help anyone who takes their CR-V someplace else for an oil change. In other vehicles, if you have a serious oil leak, your engine may be damaged; in a CR-V, that oil may hit that REAL hot something and a fire may result.
In any vehicle the oil may hit that REAL hot something and a fire may result.
When one of my brothers was kindly helping me screw the splash guards on my CR-V, I mentioned to him the current fire problem with the double/pinched gaskets. My 19-year-old brother's response was that anybody who took the filter off without checking for the gasket is an idiot. He also said that the techs would spill oil very often, but that they were told to always wipe it up. In addition, he said that they always sprayed (I can't remember the name) a cleaner/protectant/flame retardant-type spray ALL OVER the area.
My point is that even TEENAGERS realize the importance of checking for double gaskets and cleaning up spilled oil. Of course, not EVERY teenager probably cares as much as my brother does, but neither does every ADULT.
I just don't think we can bash all of the quickie oil changes. Quick shouldn't be seen as not careful or irresponsible... it is their job to be quick. I really think that a tech at a dealer is equally as likely to leave a gasket as a teenager at a quickie lube shop. Let's hope Honda techs are really being more careful now that there is all of the press...
EXACTLY!
Frankly I'm quite sure there are literally millions of them. Just look at the ground of the next parking spot you pull into - I guarantee you'll find oil stains.
HKJ: some interesting information in your post.
When I serviced my rear differential, I spilled some gear oil, it's almost inevitable because the only way to know a diffy is full is when oil leaks out the fill hole!
I did clean it, actually washed the whole undercarriage. But how common is that?
techs would spill oil very often
Exactly, it's human. It's going to happen, has and will keep happening.
What I'm saying is that this is normal, inevitable, behavior. The CR-V should be able to withstand this "normal" servicing without catching on fire.
-juice
But you have oil GASHING (mixing with oxygen) in the area close to the muffler or CAT it MIGHT ignite. All you need is a good MIXTURE :-)
By the way, Is CAT is so hot because of hot exhaust gases or also because of chemical reaction in the CAT? As I understand, CAT is speeding the reaction of oxidation and helps exhaust gases to be burned to the end (what was not burned in the cylinders).
In Europe in 2007 all trucks should be equipped with additional additive for CAT's in separate small tank. This additive would mix with fuel and make CAT's much more efficient.
Finally have time to respond to this.
Like I've said before, I changed oil through high school and college, so I've done quite a few oil changes. Thousands. Everything on the road short of exotics, very large trucks, and anything all new after 2001.
There are all kinds of vehicles with their filters very close to the exhaust manifold. Literally millions.
Off the top of my head, older Corollas, Camrys (V6 and 4 cyl), ES300s, Highlander/RX300 (filters are surrounded by exhaust manifold/pipe on those), MR2s, older Celicas, Taurus/Sable, Mazda6s, Jeep Cherokee V8, Dodge Dakota, Dodge full size vans, there's more....
Those are vehicles where the filter is near the exhaust manifold. I'm not even naming vehicles where the filter is only near an exhaust pipe (many Hondas).
None of the vehicles I named have the filter near the catalytic converter.
Everybody knows that a catalytic converter is hotter than an exhaust manifold is hotter than an exhaust pipe.
Since we haven't really heard about any problems with the vehicles that have their filters near the manifold and since I've spilled oil on hot manifolds many times and never had a fire, I think it's a very educated guess that the CR-V's filter is near the catalytic converter which is easily hot enough to ignite any oil.
I would like to reiterate, that oil change technicians are just human and not robots. They can't do a perfect job, everytime. They are underpaid and often undertrained people. My dad's car once leaked oil after a botched oil change in the past. Oil leaked, but there was no fire. An error during an oil change shouldn't mean the car should blow up.
Oil can also leak for other reasons than a technician error. It can leak if the oil filter is defective, something breaks, car gets old, etc. Again cars shouldn't be expected to blow up after such a leak.
Sure cars CAN blow up after an oil leak...but that's something that should be incredibly rare. 30+ fires and 150+ mechanical breakdowns out of 200,000 is quite a bit. If this is a problem that can occur normally in all cars...shouldn't we expect thousands of F150s, Explorers, Silverados and Camrys to blow up each year? But they don't.
I agree with others that the placement of the oil filter near the catalytic converter is the culprit to this problem.
All concerned CR-V owners should direct their anger to Honda, I urge everyone to do this. Their contact address is at:
http://www.hondacars.com/info/customer_relations.asp
Either you know the catalytic converter is near the oil filter or you don't. Until you know for sure all you're doing is speculating.
There's enough emotional content over this issue as it is, no need to throw oil on the fire (sorry, I couldn't resist!) and make things worse!
JM2C
Please, someone with a new CR-V go look and see where the catalytic converter is. You don't need to take pictures, I'll take your word for it.
I have a 99 CRV and it's fairly easy. I do get a small amount of oil on the exhaust but have never had a problem. I wipe it up when I'm done. I recently bought a 04 CRV. I believe it has the same engine as my old 03 Accord. I changed the oil in the Accord 3 times before I sold it and never had a problem. The dealer parts department said that both cars take the same filter. I never had a problem with the Honda filter. My new CRV won't be due an oil change for a while as it only has 600 miles on it. You can be sure I'll be extra careful on that first oil change! I'll put the new CRV on my ramps this weekend and see how close the converter is. Exhausts get hot, converters are another matter. If it's a filter gasket design problem, why hasn't it come up on the Accord forums?
Total -According to NHTSA site, there were 12 fires on 04 vehicles (double what was reported on 03's). As best I can tell they were on first oil change. A couple were indeed double gaskets, but most had no reason.
Now let's look at Honda's numbers
They admitted 22 03's as of 2/28 (forgot about the last 5 months)
Then they admitted 5 04's for a total of 27 as widely reported in press.
Of course, had they included the others that were on the web site, they would have been at 34. Can someone check this?
True, it looks like the recent ones all came to NHTSA after the publciity and the fires appeared before the 9th, so maybe they were not on the website. But Honda must have known about them, NO????
Can someone check? Here are the ODI numbers: All start with 100
81628, 75866, 67877, 78798, 78714, 80741, 81777, 80658, 80667, 72698, 81758, 80801
Investigation continues!
I don't know, people are not perfect. Let me rephrase that...
"...anybody automaker whose design leads to a fire when the tech takes the filter off without checking for the gasket are idiots."
I GIVE UP ON THIS TOPIC. IT NOW HAS A LIFE OF IT'S OWN ANYWAY!
To all the tech blamers, don't forget to have the dealer put your car on the lift so you can check it out before you drive away!
Huh? So we shouldn't expect them to do their job right? And many Americans wonder why jobs are being out sourced. It's their job, they get PAID for it. If they don't like it, they can get a DIFFERENT job.
The oil filter does not sit next to the cat. I've said that about a ten times. It is no further or closer to the exhaust system than any other oil filter I have ever changed.
If, over time, you lose oil from your vehicle at the rate these vehicles are losing oil, you've had a small leak for a loooooong time and you never got it fixed. We aren't talking about a minor failure of a gasket seal, this is a complete breach of the gasket, oil shooting out at a very high rate.
Let's start using out heads. A couple drops of oil aren't causing the problem.
Either way there is something wrong. It is not as simple as a bad oil change.
Oil doesn't catch on fire unless it's subjected to extreme heat. I am convinced it is a design issue. I bet there will be a recall.
I have an 02 (made in Japan) with almost 40k miles on it. Oil changes every 3000 - 5000 miles depending on how busy I get. Dealer has done it all but once. Up until about 6 months ago whenever we got an oil change there would be a puddle of oil on our garage floor from a messy oil change. Someone was too lazy to clean the mess they made. The past couple of oil changes the techs have been alot better about cleaning up.
But regardless, we have not even smelled oil burning throughout the whole 40k of ownership.
Someone needs to ask Honda the question.
"What changed from 02 to 03?"
Here's my opinion on the oil fire situation. I believe improperly installed oil filters leaked oil onto the front right axle. The spinning axle created an oil mist spray as the vehicles were being driven. This oil mist spray then was blown downwind onto the cat, igniting it.
I just went through the first oil change in June, before the story hit. I was aware of the investigation into the 2003 models. The Honda tech was sloppy on my oil change - I had to clean a lot of oil off of it at home. Believe me, I was not happy about it. I look under the thing all the time to make sure it's not leaking.
Future oil change trips will be made solo in case I need to bail out on the way home. In fact, I'm probably going to do it myself from now on. My family is not riding in this thing until I know for sure there isn't any leak. Thanks, Honda, for not resolving this issue with a recall for my peace of mind. Makes me think twice about getting another Honda.
aggie: perhaps you've been lucky up to now, or perhaps the '02 design is indeed different in some way and more fault-tolerant.
Any oil change pics? I could host them.
-juice
I used PineSol to clean before the Armor All.
The car doesn't have O-ring gaskets does it? Those are on the filter.
In many instances, the vehicles have been , totally destroyed.
"Destroyed" is absolute term like "dead" or "pregnant". You may not be TOTALLY dead or partially pregnant. I noticed, that the term totally destroyed have been used quite often in the press recently - but it's NOT correct.
"The complaint (LAWYERS) seeks certain relief including ... .. money, MONEY, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
I am afraid that the CR-V owners will get actually ... nothing, maybe a recall...
After the legal fees get paid, I bet all '03 and '04 CR-V owners get a coupon for a free oil filter too!
Steve, Host
I don't need luck, I've got brains.
You're lucky to have brains but some manners would be nice too. I think it's in poor taste to imply that those who have experienced the fires are witless.
tidester, host
Obviously those who didn't do their own oil changes can't be blamed for making the mistake.
Steve,
My 2003 seat rocks like my 2002 did (still does). The dealer took it all apart then, told me that the 2003 already had the bushing, to stop the rocking. After they put it back together, he decided to do something nice for me (without telling me); he changed the oil with a new Honda filter. Great guy! However, that very morning I had changed the oil with synthetic oil (Amsoil at that time)and a new filter. We drove to several Walmarts looking for Mobil 1. No luck, so he gave me 6 new Honda filters. I thanked him. I have just 2 filters left.
I said in an earlier post that I had changed oil about nine times with both CRV's. The last time the gasket came part of the way out of the housing. I did have to use a tool to start the filter turning, but it was just hand turning after the initial start. The gasket looks like an o-ring until it is removed from the channel, then one sees that it is flat on the backside.
I like the guy's comment on the other board to change the oil and filter in a lot of different Honda, then wait to see which one ignites. It seemed funny at the time!! Class action lawsuit? Oh my!
Some current owners may not feel 100% safe after an oil change, so they'll push to get some sort of resolution. If it takes a class action suit, well, that's hardly ideal, but if it gets Honda to actually take some real action then everyone can benefit.
I'd be appalled if the class action lawsuit came in after Honda took steps towards preventing all future fires, perhaps by using some sort of heat shield or a filter relocation kit.
Lawyers are an easy target, but what if Sabrina was your daughter? Would you just eat the thousands she lost, or would you hire a lawyer?
-juice
I will tell you I had absolutely nothing to do with the class action suit, but frankly, I am not sorry...
Well, it's not a difference in exhaust components. A check of a couple of Honda parts websites that have the Honda Parts Catalog online all shows the same part numbers for the exhaust manifold and catalytic converter for 2002, 2003, and 2004.