"...Hopefully more reviews like this will force DCX to redesign some of the things like the rear Pinto-like gas tank behind the rear bumper, as well as the thin side doors."
What I'd rather see is them improve the manufacturing so it has less defects, and is more reliable right from the factory. Take a hint from the Liberty people. Keep the design the same, that is what makes it a Jeep!!
"...That way, you can have fun and yet at least be safe at the same time."
There are a lot of things which are fun, but unsafe, in fact, the "danger" is often what makes it fun. Again, realize it is what you make it out to be...
"...I'm not sure that I personally would like to be constantly worried about the threat of the rear tank leaking fuel in a rear end collision."
Funny, I don't worry about that. Nor do I worry about radon, too much coffee, etc. .... Maybe it's "a Jeep thing"...
"I do admit that sometimes I've got to wonder how you guys enjoy yourself so much that you're willing to take the doors off completely! ;-)"
I thought we enjoy ourselves BECAUSE WE CAN take the doors off!
"Then again, I don't even open my moonroof very much and my cabin air is electrostatically filter ;-) Good thing too or my pollen allergies would be worse than what they are."
You sound like you need to get out of your plastic bubble and experience the world a little...
My first reaction when I thought about how the Wrangler would do in a side crash test was "awful, duh!" but after thinking about it for a while, I'm not so sure. There's a bunch more metal in a Wrangler than there is in most mini-SUVs, and I would think that would count for something. I, for one, would be interested in seeing results. It wouldn't make the slightest difference to me - I would just be curious.
This whole discussion brings up all kinds of philosophical questions. I have definite views on the question of responsibility - both personal and societal, but can't think of how to put it all into words. I tried to phrase things as I worked out at the gym this morning before work, but couldn't come up with anything very coherent.
The bottom line is that I want to be able to take my own risks without anyone's interference.
Actually, I've always thought Bob Bowden does some of the best car reviews available online, right up there with the edmunds.com folks. He does not pull any punches, that's for sure. This is the third time he has reviewed the TJ, and clearly the vehicle is growing on him a bit. If car reviews are designed to help would-be car buyers, then they should concentrate on every flaw the reviewer can find, because these things wear on you after a while when you own the thing. This is the second Wrangler I've owned in a row, so you all know I love Jeeps, but he is completely correct when he points out that the TJ is worlds better than its predecessor, and that it still has a lot of room for improvement. I am NOT talking about an IFS, but rather better fuel efficiency (please? is that so hard on a vehicle this small?), a quieter and more ergonomic soft top, and a lower price. The seats could be better. The factory stereo is godawful and usually drowned out by road, engine, and wind noise. A 3-speed automatic is a rip-off, and I don't know how any of you with one tolerate that. The location of the gas tank is a legitimate concern as well.
These topics come up on the board frequently, so why be surprised when a reviewer is honest for once and goes into them in detail? I actually sent Mr. Bowden an email last week about this latest review and told him that while I disagreed with some of his points, I am glad he brings them all up so that would-be Wrangler owners consider them. I've said it before, owning a Jeep for the long term is a love-hate relationship. I love my '98 Sport and it is almost paid off, but there are times I wish for a quieter, more fuel efficient vehicle.
BTW, Mr. Bowden emailed me back almost immediately. I don't want to post the whole email up here, but I will post this quote from it because I think it really brings home the point:
"What angers me most is inaction on the part of an automaker to improve or upgrade a "cult" favorite, like the Jeep. Yes, Chrysler has made it better, but failed it in many ways."
Oh, and I'm back online now y'll, and now living in beautiful San Diego. The new job is working out quite well, and I'm living 3 blocks from the beach. I'll try to make the thursday chat this week but I don't yet have home internet access so it may be difficult.
goducks, I think that the quote from the e-mail hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned. But that's just me. Good to hear that the new job is working out well!
Bob, you have the government's lack of funding to thank for the lack of side impact crash test results for all vehicles. The NHTSA is only allocated x dollars for crash testing by Congress, and they cannot spend a cent more. As such, they are forced to pick and choose which vehicles they can purchase to crash test. Over in Europe or Australia, all vehicles are required to go through the stringent new car assessment programme, which covers side impact crash testing, offset front crash testing, and full width frontal crash testing, before they are approved for sale.
You don't really have to be a safety expert to predict how a vehicle will do in side impact crash tests. If you compare other side impact crash test results from other vehicles with/without side impact airbags and the injury measurements, it's quite obvious.
The automakers were the ones who rejected the proposed fuel tank placement locations, citing that it would be too difficult of cost too much. However, most vehicles have their fuel tanks ahead of the rear axle now. It will take some shifting of components around to accomodate the tank in front of the rear axle, in a vehicle as short as the Wrangler. Light trucks do not have to meet the same kind of side impact or rollover standards that cars and minivans do, BTW.
mtngal, yes that was my point I think. Even though the review brought up safety, it's ultimate up to the customer to decide. I'd rather have Bob Bowden mention it than not :-)
SUVs, pickup trucks, and minivans typically do better in side impact collisions with cars because of the higher up position that the driver/passengers sit. This allows the dangerous impact forces to be directed down and away from the occupants. Note that the NHTSA uses a 3500 lbs car height ram, not one which is SUV or minivan height. What you do have to be concerned with in a side impact with all SUVs, especially short wheelbase ones, is the threat of a rollover. It doesn't take much of a hit (even at low speeds) to cause it to roll.
sasquatch, my plastic bubble is quite nice, thank you :-)
I've sat in a couple of Jeep Wranglers, but I guess I don't get it either, heh heh. I can most definitely appreciate its abilities off-road though. How's the towing going, BTW?
Talk to you all later! :-) Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Geez, Drew, I always took you for being more "enlightened".
Actually, today I was calling around for tow hitches. It is actually cheaper to order and pay shipping to Quadratec for a hitch than to get locally ($129.90 for hitch and ship, 145.30 to drive to a place for one I am not even sure if I'll like!). The other option is to get a bumper with built-in receiver hitch such as Tomken (rated for 3500#) and that is 199.95 + 18.95 ship= 218.90. Then I can add a tire carrier and rack in the future if I want to.
Drew, I'll admit that I too, didn't "get it" until I drove one at the beginning of the year. Even after owning some "neat/cool/phat/dope/etc." cars in the past 15 years, the Wrangler is one that I'll be keeping in some form or fashion for a long time. Last weekend, our Jeep provided top down fun on the way to/from the lake, hauled 2 kayaks around to some coves (slow speed; straped to the sport bar), provided tunes down close to the dock (nothing else was narrow enough to get between the trees), and took us deep in the woods to our campsite.
This fall, hop a flight to ATL. I'll pick you up at the airport, feed you a couple of Claritin, hand you the keys, and we'll take off for the mountains or the lake with the top down. If you still don't "get it" after that, we can't help you.
Until then, keep up the great moderating and commentary.
I'm wondering if any of you have suggestions/recommendations for a rack for my TJ. I'm looking at a Con-Ferr Sport Rack and a Kargo Master Sport Rack. Right now I don't need the basket for either rack, but just the crossbars so I can mount Yakima Mako Saddles for a pair of kayaks.
The two kayaks weigh in at about 60# each, so I don't think weight is a concern. But what are the pros/cons of the Con-Ferr loader kit? Would the rack be much more stable with this addition?
All thoughts and suggestions are welcome... Thanks.
crazyjpr - I can't remember if you're considering the Top Five rack, but while cruising their site last night, I noticed they are discounting their rack form $500 to $450, plus they are throwing in the rack step and free shipping. The Top Five and Garvin are the only ones I've researched in detail so far. Both are great racks and allow you to put the soft top back on without removing the rack. The Top Five does not require any drilling but does not come with the "basket" as part of the current price. It does ship with pads and is compatible with Yakima and Thule. I'm looking for kayak transport as well and the Top Five looks like the way to go for us.
I'm guessing by the weight you listed for the 'yaks, they are either rec/touring or sit on tops. We transported 2 sit on tops (Necky Cruisers) about 5 miles this past weekend on nothing but the sport bars. I used a piece of pipe insulation to go over the windshield header. While we never got over 45 mph, everything worked pretty well. While this worked for short trips, most of what I will need a rack for is transporting kayaks 1-2 hours. Good luck with the shopping and let us know what you decide to do.
ya, ya, imports, blah blah. but they have a 20% discount or a $30 off a $100 purchase at www.carparts.com. Not bad if you need something that they carry. *shrug*
As for the racks...i'm curious as to how the top five rack doesn't have to be tilted or anything like the garvin to put the soft top down. It just doesn't seem that high, and i know when i put my top down the front sticks up pretty high. Anyone have one that can explain it to me? Personally i think the garvin is a much better deal (comes with a basket as opposed to top five) but unloading and tilting to put up or down the top kinda sucks. Plus from the sounds of it the top five doesn't require the adapters for thule and yakima accessories like the garvin. I looked at both the top five and garvin as well. Now i just need money. Anyone have any extra laying around?
I was curious as to how the Top Five didn't need to be removed or tilted as well. One of the posters on JU desribed it as follows: The rack is supplied with two thumb screws that replace a pin component at the pivot point of the front soft top bow. Before raising or lowering the soft top, you have to remove these screws, allowing the front soft top bow to be slid backward instead of moving through its normal arc. I believe the rack has enough clearance under it to slide the hard top on and off. I'm trying to get some detailed photos of this assembly since I can't find anyone local with this rack. For as infrequently as we put the top up, I think it's workable for us. HTH.
I can't believe you have been driving around with only one door off! It is fun to have the door off, huh? You have the top down (or off) too?
I still haven't gotten around to taking Thelma's top and doors off- it has rained so much around here that I haven't missed anyting yet. I think I will be doing that this weekend.
Hi Y'all. It is so hot and humid in Atlanta that we aren't considering the thought of no doors or top off until after Labor Day when things cool off. It is no fun sitting in the sun, without air conditioning in stop and go traffic!
I am really looking forward to driving in the North Carolina mountains when the leaves turn to orange, yellow and red. Maybe I will find Eric Rudolph!
For those of you who are looking at racks: we just installed the Wilderness Rack by Garvin. We did have to drill 6 holes on the rear of the Jeep, but is wasn't any big deal. The rack and basket are just as wide as the vehicle and we considered this a plus when shopping for a rack.
We have not yet tried "raising" the rack to let the top down. It appears we must keep a wrench on us at all times, as this will require unloading any gear on the rack and loosening a few bolts in order to lift the rack. This is not as convenient as I had hoped, but certainly not the end of the world.
Would love to post a picture of my yet to be named Jeep and its Wilderness Rack, but can't figure out how. Any help would be appreciated!
What? Not taking the top off cause of the heat!?!? I'm in Austin, TX - where we had like 11 straight 100+ days, and don't think we've dipped below 99 or so for a while during the day. Absolutely beautiful with the top off. Just gotta remember to put the sunscreen on before driving off. hehe.. that's kinda funny. Of course, we don't have a very bad humidity problem which makes it a lot more enjoyable. With humidity i doubt i'd take it off either.
Question about the door bolts. What size is the nut? Sounds stupid (well..is), but i've tried both metric and standard sockets and none fit. What have others done to get the doors off for the first time? Pound the socket on, use a crescent? Anyone have the Tuffy door locks? If so do they make taking the door off easier? I'd like to leave the nut off so taking the door off is as simple as taking off the upper skins - but with my luck someone would take my half doors.
The nuts are 13MM metric. I STRONGLY recommend that you use a boxed end 13 MM wrench instead of an adjustable wrench, and even then, be very careful not to let the wrench slip! Otherwise you will have a nasty scar on your Jeep.
You have the half doors, so I'm sure they are not nearly as heavy as my full doors, but it is still important that you come STRAIGHT up with the doors as you lift them off. Those exposed threads at the end of the hinge bolts will make some very bad scratches on your paint!
Also, don't forget to pull the fuse for your overhead light. It's number 4 in your fuse panel, and if I remember correctly, it is the bottom fuse in the right hand column of fuses. I guess you know that your fuses are behind the glove box. Just take the strap loose that keeps the glove box attached, and remove the whole thing. This will expose your fuse panel.
twylie - So it has nothing to do with top five's rack and everything to do with screwing with the soft top itself. In other words i could buy those pins separately and mess with the soft top myself and not have to flip up the garvin rack either, and have the option to simply flip up the rack if needed. I'll have to take a look at my top tomorrow to see exactly what they're referring to.
*shrug* i like the garvin better anyways. Your tidbit of info just solidifies it.
Thanks. Now i just need the money.
Bob
PS - tsjay - thanks for the info on the door nut size.
I HAD the darn metric on there, but said NO WAY could Jeep use a metric!! I guess the goofy torx should have given me a hint of other oddities.
(I put on black front tow hooks 2 nights ago. $12.99 at Consumer Auto Parts. The front most bolt does not let you put the washer and nut on the bottom, however, the bumper torx bolts did not have nuts either. I put on the one which fits, but is it OK to not put the other since it is already threaded through the frame?)
I always slide a piece of cloth b/w the nut and the door when using the 13MM socket to remove the nut. Nobody told me about the 13MM size, I just rooted around in my socket set until I found one that fit. I bought the touch-up paint to clean up the nuts a bit when I put them back on.
BTW, for the move down here (from Oregon to San Diego, about 1000 miles) I had a Class 2 hitch attached to my Jeep and hauled a U-Haul trailer down with my worldy possessions. I bought it (a Draw-Tight model) and had it installed, wiring and all, by the U-haul people for only $130 or so. The ball hitch etc was another $30 or so. I thought this to be a very good deal.
The Jeep handled the load (probably around 2300 lbs, more than you should haul I know) very well. No problems going over the Siskyous or San Gabriels, which were the two real mountain passes I had to drive over. I was actually able to maintain 55mph the whole time, and averaged about 11 or 12 mpg for the trip, which really surprised me. That 4.0L engine is a wonder and the torque is plentiful.
Was that review by Robert Bowden some kind of joke? I have never seen such a pathetic piece of work. I would like to read some more of his reviews to see if he has a clue about anything.
When it is real hot and humid you can still run without the top. You just need a bikini top to keep the sun off you. I don't ever bother putting on the nuts to the doors.
I've been reading the old posts and came across one where you listed your past vehicles and thought you would be interested in seeing my list:
1979 Firebird Formula (first car) traded for- 1989 Firebird Formula (my favorite till my Jeep, I hope traded for- 1995 Pontiac GrandPrix GTP (first new car & first accident) traded for- 1991 Pontiac Trans Am GTA traded for- 1996 Pontiac Trans Am (unfortunately my second accident) totaled. 1991 Ford Festiva (commuter car) 1997 Chevy Blazer 2dr (stay away from these see my post #231 on Chevy Blazer/Jimmy problems board)
and now finally my Jeep.
Like you said I'm not rich just have really good credit I guess. Hopefully I will stick with my Jeep for a long time. Too early to tell but so far I love it. Spent (wasted) way too much money over the past 10+ years on cars.
Now I just wish it would cool off and stop raining up here so I can take the top off....
goducks - ya, i plan on using a terry cloth in the back to try and protect it. I actually took my entire socket set out with me before i asked since i didn't know the size. None fit, nadda, not 12mm, 13mm, 14mm, 1/2", 7/16, etc. That's why i asked. Didn't feel like guessing which size (english vs metric) was the closest and forcing it on.
In other news i finally went back to my "dealership" to duke it out with the factory service manual they promised me when i bought the jeep in Oct. I last went there in Feb or so, and forgot about it till now. This time the manager is ordering it directly himself and is supposedly calling me in a few days when it gets there. Needless to say i'm calling Monday to get the status.
well, it looks like this is a pretty comprehensive board for TJ owners ....
I will to become one soon enough. I owned an '83 cj7 for a couple of years. actually, it was the first vehicle I ever paid for with my own $$$. I've had a couple of ponys since then, but the old yearning for another jeep has never quite gone away.
I had the same initial reaction to Mr. Bowden's article. but rather than flame people like him, I'm just sorry I wasted more than 30 seconds reading the review. writers get paid to pull stuff outta their [non-permissible content removed], anyway.
well, if anybody has any advice on the buying process, lay it on me. I'm not very good at haggling b/c I can't stand talking to salesmen for 2 minutes, much less 2 hours. I heard that August is a good time to buy a new car (?)
oh, and what is the deal on the gas mileage ? I'm reading anywhere between 13 and 18 mpg on the six .. ? whats the deal ?
So far all i've done is put on a new rear tube bumper w/ tow hitch (went cheap cause didn't have the cash and needed a receiver). Put on a new front rock crawler warn bumper after my little run in with a caddy in MI. Want to put on rocker panels, and some more under armor but need a job first.
Want to go wheelin but since it's a brand spankin new jeep (and i don't know jack about off roadin)wanna at least get some basic protection for when (not if) i do something stupid.
The best advice I can give about buying a Jeep (or any new vehicle for that matter) is to BE PREPARED. Know the invoice price of the Jeep and all of the options you want. Negotiate based on this amount and not the MSRP or some arbitrary dealer markup. Also, patience is key. Many sales people try to catch you off guard, so don't agree to a payment scheme that you don't understand. Make them explain everything. Eat something before you go in case you're there for a while. Finally, don't be afraid to walk if you don't get the deal you want - even after significant amounts of negotiation. There are plenty of dealerships out there and the sales person knows that if you don't buy from him/her, then you'll buy from someone else.
This must come up all the time but, by gosh, there are about 3600 post here and who has the time to search so many messages? I figure if anyone hates or loves the Wrangler with a passion they will take a second to respond. For added info, my main purpose will be to pull 2 jetskis and also get to and from work (and around my hilly property) from an unincorporated area that gets little or no winter road service in the approximate St Louis metro area. Thanks in advance for any replies. The reputation and personnel experience with the Cherokee makes user recommendations very important for a Wrangler purchase.
My Wrangler is my primary winter vehicle (our other car is a 4x2 Tacoma). In the last 2 winters, we've only got it stuck once, the night we got 3 feet of snow. I actually got it out of the driveway but got high centered in the road, since the snow got packed under the frame. As soon as I dug out the snow under the frame, and the wheels could get a grip, we backed it up to wait for the snow plow. It has worked well for all other snowfalls we've had (up to 1 foot). Things don't get icy very often, so I haven't tried driving on it much. If you are going depend on chains, don't get the 30" wheel group (what I have) because they don't have the clearance for chains (think about snow tires...). We have a hard top, and its a good thing with that much snow and no garage in the winter.
I don't tow with my Wrangler - just take it out to find interesting hiking spots where most people don't go. Even as a stock vehicle, it goes pretty much where I've wanted. The I6 engine and a 5 speed will maintain 65-70 mph up the steep grade of the I5 Grapevine and only have to downshift to 4th gear when there is a head wind. I live at 6,000 feet and work at sea level, and have never had any problems getting home.
We no longer use it for our only vehicle because of the lousy gas mileage. It is not a luxury car, and so don't expect it to drive like one. Mine is noisier than most cars, even with the hard top, and it has a bouncy ride, due to the gas shocks and the short wheelbase (on one freeway the expansion joints get it acting sort of like a bucking bronco - the first time I went over that section I thought I had a flat or something!). On the other hand, the seats are much more comfortable than my Tacoma! We took it on a 3,000 mile trip because of that!
I love my '98 and it has had no maintenance problems (other than the dash gauges which has a TSB out on it) in 90,000 miles. I'm planning on keeping it for at least another 100,000 (I hope to keep it for 6 years - I'd like a year, maybe two without that car payment).
So if you don't have a 75 mile one way commute (or don't care about the lousy gas mileage), don't mind turning up your radio so that you can hear it over the road noise, have the patience to drive around 65 mph (the handling characteristics above that speed are hazardous), and aren't expecting a smooth, soft ride, then look at the Wrangler. It's a blast to drive and it is one tough vehicle. Just don't expect it to be something it wasn't designed to be.
I am considering getting a waterproof cab cover so I can just throw on the cover at night instead of dealing with putting on the soft top (I don't have a garage). Does anyone have any suggestions on whether or not it is practical to buy a Tonneau cover/California top/wind breaker combo instead of a cover. do they make a product that is similar to a wind breaker but protects the cab from rain, etc? Is one cover better then another? Thanks
They make a thing called the trail cover that goes over the passenger and cargo areas when you are not driving the Jeep. There is also a full cover for the whole Jeep from the bumpers up.
I have the full cover, and it works well.
Go to www.quadratec.com and check out all the things they have. That's where I got my full cover. They are a good company, and they deliver promptly.
They carry every kind of Jeep accessory you can imagine.
Although there are, as you said, almost 3600 posts, you would do well to read as many as you can to get a real good feel for what it is like to own a Wrangler.
For the purposes you mentioned, I know of no reason that you shouldn't get a Wrangler, as long as you understand going in that your gas mileage will be much lower that for almost any other vehicle you might buy. Your cargo room is going to be very little also.
But, if you want to talk "FUN," that's what Jeeps are all about! Be sure and get either the dual tops or the soft top only, cause topdown or top off is the way to get the most enjoyment out of that Jeep.
I bought my first ever Wrangler on December 8, 2000, and I have NO REGRETS! (Well, I do regret getting the hard top only.)
See my Thelma Jane and read about my buying experience at....
The 2001's didn't sell well, and DC gave some incentives, like free auto tranny and $500 cash rebate or low financing. I think they will wait and see how the 2002's are going to sell before offering any incentives on them.
You can still find some 2001's out there and take advantage of the incentives on them. They were commonly going for invoice to $200 over invoice, and you could still get the rebate on top of that, so that you could effectively buy for $300 to $500 under invoice.
Figured it was about time I poked my head in and said "hello":)
Been reading the posts here for several months now, and would like to thank all of you for the great info I've found in that time. I'd been wanting a Wrangler since I can remember, and finally decided that the time was right to stop wishing and finally do something about it! After months of researching, and several weeks of shopping around, I finally broke down about a week ago and drove home in a tan 2000 sport.
So far, I think the biggest problem I've had is trying not to look like an idiot with the big goofy grin I've been driving around with. Needless to say I'm very happy with my new baby. Part of that is the fact that Wranglers just scream "FUN", and part of that is this is the first time I've actually made a car purchase without a little financial assistance from my parents (hey, what can I say? I'm 26 and until recently I had college and other things I had to pay for).
So, hello everybody! And if you happen to be in the San Jose area, and see me on the road, I'd just like to let you know that I'm not high, I'm not an escapee from a nearby mental institution, I'm just really diggin my Wrangler!
In case you were curious, here's my automotive past:
Chevy Sprint Dodge Colt Ford Ranger
As you can see, the first two are only technically classified as "cars" (anything powered by a 3-cylinder can't be taken seriously), and the third is a perfect example of why pick-ups should not be sold with 4-cylinders (just try driving through the mountains to get to Santa Cruz!).
And to anybody currently considering a Wrangler, all I can say is research it well, and if you get a little voice in the back of your head trying to talk you out of it, it's probably part of some government research project into mind control, and you should probably ignore it:)
Congrats on the Wrangler! That tan is a great color, and I'll never understand why they discontinued it.
I know what you are feeling now. The good news is that while some of the initial excitement may fade, you will never get tired of driving that Jeep! Believe me, I know what it is like to get all fired up over a new vehicle, and then, before you know it, being bored with it and wanting something else. Not so with my Thelma Jane!
How about a little intro post in Meet the Members?
Get some pics posted somewhere too! Would love to see your baby!!!
Hello all! I am officially an owner of a 2001 Wrangler. Picked it up on Friday evening here in Montgomery, drove top up from the dealer, then later that night, top down. Unfortunately, had a little rain and got a little wet, but all is fine today.
A reminder on the specs: 2001 Steel Blue Wrangler Sport Black Soft Top, Tinted Windows Fog Lights, Tow Hooks, Full doors A/C, 5 spd, ABS, Side Steps Standard Wheels & Tires
My plans....first step is a CD player. I ordered the factory sub, but not the CD, since I planned to upgrade anyway. The local shop is offering 2 free speakers (Sony 5 1/4 or Kenwood 6 1/2, or some brand of 4x6) with the purchase of any CD receiver. Since they are free, I'll take them. My question is which speakers should I replace first: soundbar or dash?
I have many other plans already formulating (Just Empty Every Pocket), but most of them will wait until after I get to Colorado. But I need the CD for the long drive. I will also keep the wheels and tires until after the long drive. But those will be upgraded as well. GPS, CB, and a few others things will be coming down the road as well.
It feels good to finally have a vehicle, but it feels even better to have a JEEP!
Comments
What I'd rather see is them improve the manufacturing so it has less defects, and is more reliable right from the factory. Take a hint from the Liberty people. Keep the design the same, that is what makes it a Jeep!!
"...That way, you can have fun and yet at least be safe at the same time."
There are a lot of things which are fun, but unsafe, in fact, the "danger" is often what makes it fun. Again, realize it is what you make it out to be...
"...I'm not sure that I personally would like to be constantly worried about the threat of the rear tank leaking fuel in a rear end collision."
Funny, I don't worry about that. Nor do I worry about radon, too much coffee, etc. .... Maybe it's "a Jeep thing"...
"I do admit that sometimes I've got to wonder how you guys enjoy yourself so much that you're willing to take the doors off completely! ;-)"
I thought we enjoy ourselves BECAUSE WE CAN take the doors off!
"Then again, I don't even open my moonroof very much and my cabin air is electrostatically filter ;-) Good thing too or my pollen allergies would be worse than what they are."
You sound like you need to get out of your plastic bubble and experience the world a little...
;-)
That is what the argument has been against gun control for years.
This whole discussion brings up all kinds of philosophical questions. I have definite views on the question of responsibility - both personal and societal, but can't think of how to put it all into words. I tried to phrase things as I worked out at the gym this morning before work, but couldn't come up with anything very coherent.
The bottom line is that I want to be able to take my own risks without anyone's interference.
These topics come up on the board frequently, so why be surprised when a reviewer is honest for once and goes into them in detail? I actually sent Mr. Bowden an email last week about this latest review and told him that while I disagreed with some of his points, I am glad he brings them all up so that would-be Wrangler owners consider them. I've said it before, owning a Jeep for the long term is a love-hate relationship. I love my '98 Sport and it is almost paid off, but there are times I wish for a quieter, more fuel efficient vehicle.
BTW, Mr. Bowden emailed me back almost immediately. I don't want to post the whole email up here, but I will post this quote from it because I think it really brings home the point:
"What angers me most is inaction on the part of an automaker to improve or upgrade a "cult" favorite, like the Jeep. Yes, Chrysler has made it better, but failed it in many ways."
Bob, you have the government's lack of funding to thank for the lack of side impact crash test results for all vehicles. The NHTSA is only allocated x dollars for crash testing by Congress, and they cannot spend a cent more. As such, they are forced to pick and choose which vehicles they can purchase to crash test. Over in Europe or Australia, all vehicles are required to go through the stringent new car assessment programme, which covers side impact crash testing, offset front crash testing, and full width frontal crash testing, before they are approved for sale.
You don't really have to be a safety expert to predict how a vehicle will do in side impact crash tests. If you compare other side impact crash test results from other vehicles with/without side impact airbags and the injury measurements, it's quite obvious.
The automakers were the ones who rejected the proposed fuel tank placement locations, citing that it would be too difficult of cost too much. However, most vehicles have their fuel tanks ahead of the rear axle now. It will take some shifting of components around to accomodate the tank in front of the rear axle, in a vehicle as short as the Wrangler.
Light trucks do not have to meet the same kind of side impact or rollover standards that cars and minivans do, BTW.
mtngal, yes that was my point I think. Even though the review brought up safety, it's ultimate up to the customer to decide. I'd rather have Bob Bowden mention it than not :-)
SUVs, pickup trucks, and minivans typically do better in side impact collisions with cars because of the higher up position that the driver/passengers sit. This allows the dangerous impact forces to be directed down and away from the occupants. Note that the NHTSA uses a 3500 lbs car height ram, not one which is SUV or minivan height. What you do have to be concerned with in a side impact with all SUVs, especially short wheelbase ones, is the threat of a rollover. It doesn't take much of a hit (even at low speeds) to cause it to roll.
sasquatch, my plastic bubble is quite nice, thank you :-)
I've sat in a couple of Jeep Wranglers, but I guess I don't get it either, heh heh. I can most definitely appreciate its abilities off-road though. How's the towing going, BTW?
Talk to you all later! :-)
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
Actually, today I was calling around for tow hitches. It is actually cheaper to order and pay shipping to Quadratec for a hitch than to get locally ($129.90 for hitch and ship, 145.30 to drive to a place for one I am not even sure if I'll like!). The other option is to get a bumper with built-in receiver hitch such as Tomken (rated for 3500#) and that is 199.95 + 18.95 ship= 218.90. Then I can add a tire carrier and rack in the future if I want to.
I think the NHTSA should be disbanded completely.
I'll admit that I too, didn't "get it" until I drove one at the beginning of the year. Even after owning some "neat/cool/phat/dope/etc." cars in the past 15 years, the Wrangler is one that I'll be keeping in some form or fashion for a long time. Last weekend, our Jeep provided top down fun on the way to/from the lake, hauled 2 kayaks around to some coves (slow speed; straped to the sport bar), provided tunes down close to the dock (nothing else was narrow enough to get between the trees), and took us deep in the woods to our campsite.
This fall, hop a flight to ATL. I'll pick you up at the airport, feed you a couple of Claritin, hand you the keys, and we'll take off for the mountains or the lake with the top down. If you still don't "get it" after that, we can't help you.
Until then, keep up the great moderating and commentary.
-twylie
I hope you get hooked up at home soon.
Liking So. Cal., huh? Glad things are going well. Just don't forget your buddies here and at Gill's, OK?
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
The two kayaks weigh in at about 60# each, so I don't think weight is a concern. But what are the pros/cons of the Con-Ferr loader kit? Would the rack be much more stable with this addition?
All thoughts and suggestions are welcome... Thanks.
Another option is to put on a trailer hitch, and get a utility trailer.
Also, why not just strap the 60lb kayaks onto your roof and tie down to front and rear bumpers?
Does anybody know what tools (torx bit sizes?) I need to do this job?
Anyone else out there have one of these?
I had it narrowed down to Old Man Emu 2" http://www.ok4wd.com/catalog/oldmanemu/main.htm $549 and Explorer Pro Comp 2" lifts for $529.
Now, I might also consider Skyjacker 2.5" lift at $579.
Anybody here know of better prices on these?
Does anyone make a better 2" lift for the same price, or the same quality for less?
I'm guessing by the weight you listed for the 'yaks, they are either rec/touring or sit on tops. We transported 2 sit on tops (Necky Cruisers) about 5 miles this past weekend on nothing but the sport bars. I used a piece of pipe insulation to go over the windshield header. While we never got over 45 mph, everything worked pretty well. While this worked for short trips, most of what I will need a rack for is transporting kayaks 1-2 hours. Good luck with the shopping and let us know what you decide to do.
-twylie
ya, ya, imports, blah blah. but they have a 20% discount or a $30 off a $100 purchase at www.carparts.com. Not bad if you need something that they carry. *shrug*
As for the racks...i'm curious as to how the top five rack doesn't have to be tilted or anything like the garvin to put the soft top down. It just doesn't seem that high, and i know when i put my top down the front sticks up pretty high. Anyone have one that can explain it to me? Personally i think the garvin is a much better deal (comes with a basket as opposed to top five) but unloading and tilting to put up or down the top kinda sucks. Plus from the sounds of it the top five doesn't require the adapters for thule and yakima accessories like the garvin. I looked at both the top five and garvin as well. Now i just need money. Anyone have any extra laying around?
Bob
-twylie
I just wanted to try it out (scratched paint on the nut). Now I can wash and wax my car INSIDE my house.
I did not want to take the other off, because I am going to the Cape next week, and want the doors (might take off while there!).
Some good Cape Cod links:
http://www.capelinks.com/beaches.htm
http://www.cctrails.org/sandneck.htm
http://www.hyannis.com/beaches.asp
http://www.capecodonline.com/oncape/sanbeach.htm
http://www.capeguide.com/beaches.htm
http://www.capecodlife.com/CCL/recreation/rec_beach.html
http://www.barnstable-patriot.com/04-08-99-news/neck.html
I still haven't gotten around to taking Thelma's top and doors off- it has rained so much around here that I haven't missed anyting yet. I think I will be doing that this weekend.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Whee!!!!
(this one was a b@ll buster, though, and I hope they go in easier than they came out!)
Now I guess I need to check the laws on mirrors or order mirror brackets or something... :-)
of course it is with the top off!
I think I want all cloth doors!
I am really looking forward to driving in the North Carolina mountains when the leaves turn to orange, yellow and red. Maybe I will find Eric Rudolph!
For those of you who are looking at racks: we just installed the Wilderness Rack by Garvin. We did have to drill 6 holes on the rear of the Jeep, but is wasn't any big deal. The rack and basket are just as wide as the vehicle and we considered this a plus when shopping for a rack.
We have not yet tried "raising" the rack to let the top down. It appears we must keep a wrench on us at all times, as this will require unloading any gear on the rack and loosening a few bolts in order to lift the rack. This is not as convenient as I had hoped, but certainly not the end of the world.
Would love to post a picture of my yet to be named Jeep and its Wilderness Rack, but can't figure out how. Any help would be appreciated!
I have hugged my Jeep today!
Mary Ann
Question about the door bolts. What size is the nut? Sounds stupid (well..is), but i've tried both metric and standard sockets and none fit. What have others done to get the doors off for the first time? Pound the socket on, use a crescent? Anyone have the Tuffy door locks? If so do they make taking the door off easier? I'd like to leave the nut off so taking the door off is as simple as taking off the upper skins - but with my luck someone would take my half doors.
But that's about it from me.
Laters,
Bob
KarenS "Jeep Wrangler Owners: Photo Gallery" Feb 7, 2001 11:00am
I hope this helps!
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
You have the half doors, so I'm sure they are not nearly as heavy as my full doors, but it is still important that you come STRAIGHT up with the doors as you lift them off. Those exposed threads at the end of the hinge bolts will make some very bad scratches on your paint!
Also, don't forget to pull the fuse for your overhead light. It's number 4 in your fuse panel, and if I remember correctly, it is the bottom fuse in the right hand column of fuses. I guess you know that your fuses are behind the glove box. Just take the strap loose that keeps the glove box attached, and remove the whole thing. This will expose your fuse panel.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
*shrug* i like the garvin better anyways. Your tidbit of info just solidifies it.
Thanks. Now i just need the money.
Bob
PS - tsjay - thanks for the info on the door nut size.
I HAD the darn metric on there, but said NO WAY could Jeep use a metric!! I guess the goofy torx should have given me a hint of other oddities.
(I put on black front tow hooks 2 nights ago. $12.99 at Consumer Auto Parts. The front most bolt does not let you put the washer and nut on the bottom, however, the bumper torx bolts did not have nuts either. I put on the one which fits, but is it OK to not put the other since it is already threaded through the frame?)
The Jeep handled the load (probably around 2300 lbs, more than you should haul I know) very well. No problems going over the Siskyous or San Gabriels, which were the two real mountain passes I had to drive over. I was actually able to maintain 55mph the whole time, and averaged about 11 or 12 mpg for the trip, which really surprised me. That 4.0L engine is a wonder and the torque is plentiful.
Hope you will join the chat tonight. I guess you are on CDST, so the chat will be at 8:00 PM your time (my time too- I'm in western Ky).
Glad to have you with us, Pokey. Be a prolific poster!
Been hot up there too, huh? We are having our typical, miserable summer heat and humidity here in western Ky. Heat indices running 105 to 110.
Take a look at my Thelma Jane, if you haven't already, and also post some pics of your Jeep.
http://www.members.aol.com/tjoh298765/thelma.html
Be seeing ya around.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
When it is real hot and humid you can still run without the top. You just need a bikini top to keep the sun off you.
I don't ever bother putting on the nuts to the doors.
I've been reading the old posts and came across one where you listed your past vehicles and thought you would be interested in seeing my list:
1979 Firebird Formula (first car) traded for-
1989 Firebird Formula (my favorite till my Jeep, I hope
1995 Pontiac GrandPrix GTP (first new car & first accident) traded for-
1991 Pontiac Trans Am GTA traded for-
1996 Pontiac Trans Am (unfortunately my second accident) totaled.
1991 Ford Festiva (commuter car)
1997 Chevy Blazer 2dr (stay away from these see my post #231 on Chevy Blazer/Jimmy problems board)
and now finally my Jeep.
Like you said I'm not rich just have really good credit I guess. Hopefully I will stick with my Jeep for a long time. Too early to tell but so far I love it. Spent (wasted) way too much money over the past 10+ years on cars.
Now I just wish it would cool off and stop raining up here so I can take the top off....
"talk" to ya later
Pokey
In other news i finally went back to my "dealership" to duke it out with the factory service manual they promised me when i bought the jeep in Oct. I last went there in Feb or so, and forgot about it till now. This time the manager is ordering it directly himself and is supposedly calling me in a few days when it gets there. Needless to say i'm calling Monday to get the status.
Bob
I will to become one soon enough. I owned an '83 cj7 for a couple
of years. actually, it was the first vehicle I ever paid for with my own
$$$. I've had a couple of ponys since then, but the old yearning for another
jeep has never quite gone away.
I had the same initial reaction to Mr. Bowden's article. but rather than flame
people like him, I'm just sorry I wasted more than 30 seconds reading the
review. writers get paid to pull stuff outta their [non-permissible content removed], anyway.
well, if anybody has any advice on the buying process, lay it on me.
I'm not very good at haggling b/c I can't stand talking to salesmen for
2 minutes, much less 2 hours. I heard that August is a good time to
buy a new car (?)
oh, and what is the deal on the gas mileage ? I'm reading anywhere
between 13 and 18 mpg on the six .. ? whats the deal ?
...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/towchat/jeepchat.html
Been busy around the house..
trying to get my backyard finished...
i've been ignoring it for the past 2 years..
so i;ve got a jungle out there...
Wow you guys have been posting like crazy...
its time to start a debate again..
hmmm hard top vs soft top?
full doors vs half doors...
my fav
Maunual Vs Automatic..
good to see all of you still here
Got Jeep?
BT
http://www.geocities.com/bamatazz2001/index.html
So far all i've done is put on a new rear tube bumper w/ tow hitch (went cheap cause didn't have the cash and needed a receiver). Put on a new front rock crawler warn bumper after my little run in with a caddy in MI. Want to put on rocker panels, and some more under armor but need a job first.
Want to go wheelin but since it's a brand spankin new jeep (and i don't know jack about off roadin)wanna at least get some basic protection for when (not if) i do something stupid.
Bob
I don't tow with my Wrangler - just take it out to find interesting hiking spots where most people don't go. Even as a stock vehicle, it goes pretty much where I've wanted. The I6 engine and a 5 speed will maintain 65-70 mph up the steep grade of the I5 Grapevine and only have to downshift to 4th gear when there is a head wind. I live at 6,000 feet and work at sea level, and have never had any problems getting home.
We no longer use it for our only vehicle because of the lousy gas mileage. It is not a luxury car, and so don't expect it to drive like one. Mine is noisier than most cars, even with the hard top, and it has a bouncy ride, due to the gas shocks and the short wheelbase (on one freeway the expansion joints get it acting sort of like a bucking bronco - the first time I went over that section I thought I had a flat or something!). On the other hand, the seats are much more comfortable than my Tacoma! We took it on a 3,000 mile trip because of that!
I love my '98 and it has had no maintenance problems (other than the dash gauges which has a TSB out on it) in 90,000 miles. I'm planning on keeping it for at least another 100,000 (I hope to keep it for 6 years - I'd like a year, maybe two without that car payment).
So if you don't have a 75 mile one way commute (or don't care about the lousy gas mileage), don't mind turning up your radio so that you can hear it over the road noise, have the patience to drive around 65 mph (the handling characteristics above that speed are hazardous), and aren't expecting a smooth, soft ride, then look at the Wrangler. It's a blast to drive and it is one tough vehicle. Just don't expect it to be something it wasn't designed to be.
I have the full cover, and it works well.
Go to www.quadratec.com and check out all the things they have. That's where I got my full cover. They are a good company, and they deliver promptly.
They carry every kind of Jeep accessory you can imagine.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
For the purposes you mentioned, I know of no reason that you shouldn't get a Wrangler, as long as you understand going in that your gas mileage will be much lower that for almost any other vehicle you might buy. Your cargo room is going to be very little also.
But, if you want to talk "FUN," that's what Jeeps are all about! Be sure and get either the dual tops or the soft top only, cause topdown or top off is the way to get the most enjoyment out of that Jeep.
I bought my first ever Wrangler on December 8, 2000, and I have NO REGRETS! (Well, I do regret getting the hard top only.)
See my Thelma Jane and read about my buying experience at....
http://www.members.aol.com/tjoh298765/thelma.html
The 2001's didn't sell well, and DC gave some incentives, like free auto tranny and $500 cash rebate or low financing. I think they will wait and see how the 2002's are going to sell before offering any incentives on them.
You can still find some 2001's out there and take advantage of the incentives on them. They were commonly going for invoice to $200 over invoice, and you could still get the rebate on top of that, so that you could effectively buy for $300 to $500 under invoice.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Been reading the posts here for several months now, and would like to thank all of you for the great info I've found in that time. I'd been wanting a Wrangler since I can remember, and finally decided that the time was right to stop wishing and finally do something about it! After months of researching, and several weeks of shopping around, I finally broke down about a week ago and drove home in a tan 2000 sport.
So far, I think the biggest problem I've had is trying not to look like an idiot with the big goofy grin I've been driving around with. Needless to say I'm very happy with my new baby. Part of that is the fact that Wranglers just scream "FUN", and part of that is this is the first time I've actually made a car purchase without a little financial assistance from my parents (hey, what can I say? I'm 26 and until recently I had college and other things I had to pay for).
So, hello everybody! And if you happen to be in the San Jose area, and see me on the road, I'd just like to let you know that I'm not high, I'm not an escapee from a nearby mental institution, I'm just really diggin my Wrangler!
In case you were curious, here's my automotive past:
Chevy Sprint
Dodge Colt
Ford Ranger
As you can see, the first two are only technically classified as "cars" (anything powered by a 3-cylinder can't be taken seriously), and the third is a perfect example of why pick-ups should not be sold with 4-cylinders (just try driving through the mountains to get to Santa Cruz!).
And to anybody currently considering a Wrangler, all I can say is research it well, and if you get a little voice in the back of your head trying to talk you out of it, it's probably part of some government research project into mind control, and you should probably ignore it:)
I know what you are feeling now. The good news is that while some of the initial excitement may fade, you will never get tired of driving that Jeep! Believe me, I know what it is like to get all fired up over a new vehicle, and then, before you know it, being bored with it and wanting something else. Not so with my Thelma Jane!
How about a little intro post in Meet the Members?
Get some pics posted somewhere too! Would love to see your baby!!!
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
A reminder on the specs:
2001 Steel Blue Wrangler Sport
Black Soft Top, Tinted Windows
Fog Lights, Tow Hooks, Full doors
A/C, 5 spd, ABS, Side Steps
Standard Wheels & Tires
My plans....first step is a CD player. I ordered the factory sub, but not the CD, since I planned to upgrade anyway. The local shop is offering 2 free speakers (Sony 5 1/4 or Kenwood 6 1/2, or some brand of 4x6) with the purchase of any CD receiver. Since they are free, I'll take them. My question is which speakers should I replace first: soundbar or dash?
I have many other plans already formulating (Just Empty Every Pocket), but most of them will wait until after I get to Colorado. But I need the CD for the long drive. I will also keep the wheels and tires until after the long drive. But those will be upgraded as well. GPS, CB, and a few others things will be coming down the road as well.
It feels good to finally have a vehicle, but it feels even better to have a JEEP!
Madman
And once again, welcome home to the good old USA!
I'm really happy for you, Madman. I guess you will have to change your username to Gladman, huh?
POST SOME PIX! Let us see that Jeep!
Keep posting. Nice to have you home.
tsjay
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Laura