Bottgers, how do you know for sure? If you have a bottle of 303 or stoner's, can you please tell us what chemicals they use, if they're even labeled on the bottles?I'd appreciate it very much. I've heard some good things about the 303, but still need to know what do they use before i purchase one of these. Someone from my other message board stated that 303 don't put what chemicals they use on their bottles.
I need my chemist professor for this one.... 303 contains organomodified polymeric emulsion (proprietary). Have really no clue if this is safe/reliable to be used on rubber, but will check into it. Apparently this stuff is advertised as the "one". Alot of info. have been provided by the person i talked to about its superb 100!% resistance to UV and its ability/quality to hold on for 4-8 weeks.
Yeah actually I just replaced a set of 10 year old tires. (Michelin LTX's if anyone cares or is curious)
The tires treated regularly (with Meguiars #40) had no weathering issues at all. The one that was NOT treated (spare) had numerous issues such as air loss, "rot" in some areas and cracking in some others.
That's kind of scary since the rule of thumb is to replace tires a few years before that, regardless of how they look on the surface. Ford suggests six years for example. (Detroit News)
I'm in the same boat with my low mileage Outback with the mounted snows; all 8 tires are 8 years old now.
I go back and forth between 303 and Vinylx, but at a buck an ounce, I don't bother spritzing my tires.
On the one hand yes, but on the other hand, it really goes to show the variance. They had plenty of tread left, measured 6-32in at 59,000 miles(comes stock with 13/32) for a projected mileage of 33,714 more or 92,714 miles total. This converts to app 31% of tread left.
The only reason why I changed it was as I recall it was getting close to the min required for "snow" tires over Highways 50 and 80 (to Reno, Tahoe areas in winter) I must be getting soft in my old age, for over the years it has been a no brainer for me to drive without even snow tires or even chains.
I have a 1999 Chevy Suburban. It's a 1500 two wheel drive. I bought it in California new. Here's the problem. After 10k miles or so, the front tires (both sides) show an uneven tread wear with the outside 2 inches wearing appreciably more than the rest of the inside of the tire. I've increased my tire rotation to try and get some more time out of them, but I am on my second set of tires and only have 54k miles on the truck. I have varied tire pressure, had alignment work done, and switched tires, but the result is the same. I'd like to remedy this if anyone has a solution.
Water based dressings will not harm tire sidewalls but oil based dressings might. If you're concerned about tire damage from dressings, stick with the water based products and your tires will be fine.
It's easy to tell the diff between water based and oil based - - water based dressings are milky and watery in appearance. Oil based dressings are thicker and heavier feeling (almost like baby oil) and most are clear or some funky color.
303 is an excellent product because it is water based, has a UV sunscreen and has a high % of polymer protectant in it. Vinylex is a very good product too. Even Armor All Original Shine (must be the Original Shine product) is fine to use.
The tire mfr's are going to play CYA with the issue and recommend owners use nothing on the sidewalls. I know Michelin and Dunlop do not recommend the use of tire dressings. It's funny though; Michelin will tell you to not use a tire dressing on their tires, but then they introduce a line of tire and wheel care products......including a tire dressing! :confuse:
Once a tire develops a wear pattern, you can't reverse it without over-compensating. Put another way, once tread is worn off, it doesn't come back and the tread will always have uneven wear even if you fix the cause. The only way to tell if you've fixed the problem is either a new set of tires or measure the tread wear across the face of the tread at intervals to verify the tread is now wearing evenly.
Most vehicle alignment tolerances are way too wide. So you could have a problem but the "book" says it's "in spec".
There are some situations where tire wear is pretty uneven and there is very little you can do about it. For example, parking garages have pretty abrasive surfaces and sharp and frequent turns. This could result in the outside shoulders wearing more rapidly. However, usually folks are turning predominantly the same direction, so that might not be the case here. But looking at what turns are made in the normal route might give you a clue.
Is it normal to have 2 front tires to have more wear than the rear on a new set of wheels? AND, if you have more weight balances on pair of tires compared to the fewer weight balances on the other pair of tires, is it possible that the more weight balances used on the pair of tires can cause uneven wear?
"Is it normal to have 2 front tires to have more wear than the rear on a new set of wheels?"
On a FWD, yes. Which is why regular rotation should be part of your maintenance of the vehicle.
"AND, if you have more weight balances on pair of tires compared to the fewer weight balances on the other pair of tires, is it possible that the more weight balances used on the pair of tires can cause uneven wear?"
Only if the weights don't balance out the assembly, but otherwise, no.
Our local newspaper had a weekly automotive section called the car doctor (or something like that) that covered various automotive subjects. One of the featured topics was about tire dressings and they had a list of products that were safe to use without causing tire degradation. I specifically remember seeing 303 and Stoner's on that list as I had been using them at that time. These two products were the best I'd ever used as they were the longest lasting, and of these two, I like the Stoner's the best. It was the easiest to use and it lasted longer than the 303.
..."Once a tire develops a wear pattern, you can't reverse it without over-compensating. Put another way, once tread is worn off, it doesn't come back and the tread will always have uneven wear even if you fix the cause. The only way to tell if you've fixed the problem is either a new set of tires or measure the tread wear across the face of the tread at intervals to verify the tread is now wearing evenly.
Most vehicle alignment tolerances are way too wide. So you could have a problem but the "book" says it's "in spec". "...
Actually your first paragraph quoted here is one reason why you can rotate too much. If you rotate at a faster interval say 3k vs a recommended of 10k, there is a tendency to overlook or gloss over the root cause/s until it is too late. The thinking would be if one notices it: the rotation will take care of this.
So for example there are options to guard against it:
1.the most accurate is to get the alignment checked. (biggie here is with a knowledgeable alignment person.)
2. measure across the tread in three places; inner, middle, outer
3. use chalk to imprint a white bar across the tread and see where the white disappears first.
On the subject of "in spec" alignment, I would agree the specs can be VERY wide. Sometimes one has to seek out folks who really understand what you are trying to accomplish, i.e ., longer wear, more even wear, better contact patch during cornering etc.
On the Corvette Z06 the factory specifications as delivered will wear out the inner part of the tread on the front tires WAY before the other parts of the tread. From the factory this alignment is lazer checked for "perfection. The factory specification is close to 1g slalom handling, and as much as possible greater/larger tire contact patch during cornering. So if one is willing to have a bit less than 1 g cornering capability in return for more even tread life, one needs a alignment person who can
1 understand that
2 make the technical translation, so indeed it can happen.
Either condition is "within specifications" . Front tire wear can be from 5k miles to 56,000 miles, again all "within specifications."
Thanks for the info. bottgers. I'm beginning to be somewhat convinced of the 303 . I'll also see into the stoner's too. Can stoner's be found in stores?
>3. use chalk to imprint a white bar across the tread and see where the white disappears first.
Do you mean just rub a line across the tire and then watch as you start driving? Might do that in 3 places around the wheel.
I really agree with having an alignment with someone who understands the geometry and understands the particular car model you have. They're worth their weight in gold.
....the Kumho Touring A/S 795. On the Tire Rack's web site, It ranked 4th out of 30 tires overall in it's catagory and it has THE HIGHEST snow and ice traction rating. The reviews for this tire are good and the vast majority of reviews I've read for Kumho tires in general have been good. The one thing that shocked me was the price. It's almost the lowest priced tire in its catagory at $33. However, it was a different story when it came time for me to shop for this tire in the local community.
Most of the stores I contacted that sell Kumho tires didn't stock this particular tire. They could order it, but even then their price wasn't anywhere close to that of the Tire Rack's. Most had this tire priced at $47-$53, and even when I asked if they would price match the Tire Rack's price and they said they would, they must have some pretty heafty mounting/balancing/disposal fees. The lowest price I could find was $234 mounted, and most places wanted $250-$300. This means they're charging anywhere from $15-$25 a tire for mounting/balancing/disposal. Maybe it's just me, but this fee seems awfully high if I'm buying the tires from them. I could see them charging this much if I bought the tires somewhere else and was taking them there to have them mounted.
Since I am an Air Force retiree I am entitled to use the facilities at any military installation. I live near an Air Force base so decided to call their auto hobby shop (this is where people can take their vehicles to work on them themselves) and find out how much they charge to mount and balance tires. Their fee is $6.75 per tire with no tire disposal fee. I decided to order the tires from the Tire Rack. My total was $162 including shipping. That makes my total $189, including mounting and balancing.
I guess I'm only saving $45, but hey, when you're on a budget every penny counts, right? I will post a review later after I've had the tires for a while. It shouldn't be too long as I put about 3K a month on my car. I do a lot of driving!
I’m new to this thread and would imagine the following has been discussed before so pardon me if it is redundant.
My understanding is that excessive wear on the lateral extremities of a tire is cause by toe angle. Wear on the outer part of tires is caused by toe in. Conversely, toe out will cause the inner part of the tire to wear more. However, toe in on the front aids stability and tracking while toe out yields more responsive, razor-like handling although the car is more subject to wallowing.
I believe race cars are setup with toe out and I would imagine this is the case with the Vette although I am not sure. I’d like to know where you can easily find the manufacturer’s specs for all cars and wish they would publish them in their catalogs.
BMWs are notorious for quick wear on the extremities and their wheel angles are setup for their unique handling characteristics.
By the way, my Outback now has 79K on the original Bridgestone Potenzas. Although I have rotated them about 6 times front-to-back and haven’t kept track of the rotation mileage intervals, I have noticed that there is more wear on 1) the outer part of the left tires and 2) the inner part of the right tires. I was perplexed by this because the car tracks neutral, no pulling to either side. I finally figured that it is because of my daily work route which has many more right hand curves that are quite severe.
Well, the Potenzas need replacing although I am determined to get 80K for my personal record book, shattering my previous best for tires which was previously about 40K. The Potenzas were extremely loyal and were decent in rain. Bite in snow ran out after about 40K, although they were never particularly masterful in snow. They were quiet but always squealed on turns which didn’t bother me. To this day there was never a sign of any distortion, never a shimmy with true direction in spite of withstanding more than enough potholes—this alone has amazed me. Any recommendations for their replacement?
One thing frustrating about tires, they are not easy to become familiar with, and once you buy them you are stuck unless you like squandering money. Would be nice to take one car, your car, and test 10 different tire types in snow, rain and summer sun—back to back on one weekend. Wouldn’t that be nice? Right.
This post is pretty lengthy, so I'll only respond to part of it.
Irregular / uneven tire wear can be caused by a number of things, but you've written the equations backwards. This is the way it should be expressed: Excessive toe in = outside shoulder wear.
Outside shoulder wear is not always caused by excessive toe in - sometimes too much positive camber can do the same thing. There are a variety of suspension items that can cause tires to wear in unusual ways.
For example, if a car experiences many right hand turns (like on and off ramps of freeways) then the outside shoulders of the left side and the inside shoulders of the right side MIGHT see more wear.
I'll be back when I have a bit of time to think about how to best answer the rest of your post.
Irregular / uneven tire wear can be caused by a number of things, but you've written the equations backwards. This is the way it should be expressed: Excessive toe in = outside shoulder wear.
Capri or others may be able to help me. A national store's tire center broke off a stud removing wheels to put on new struts a couple of years ago. They said someone had crossthreaded it.
Last Friday they partly removed a nut and said it was going to break off the stud if they continued but for on ly $40 they would take off the caliper and replace the stud. They said it was not their fault. However they have had the wheels on and off regularly since they inherited the National Tire Battery lifetime wheel balance and rotation guarantee.
I occasionally have rotated wheels myself. I notice that some nuts don't tighten as easily as others--is this due to damage from their fast air wrenches they use?
Should the lugs be oiled lightly to reduce friction heating during their speed gun removal?
Should I go back to the store for payment for the damaged stud and nut that I replaced myself at home?
They said it was fine to drive with only 4 nuts tightened.
You can demount the tire, flip inside to outside, trade L to R if rotation direction is an issue ( having started by marking arrows indicating rotation direction) and even out the wear. At least it did in the 70s on passenger cars and LTs. I am not sure this is economical today.
My old Accord V6 with ABS has two rear Kelly tires which are 6 years old, yet in very good shape. But they are very noisy (especially one of them) which makes driving the car unpleasant. The size of my tires is P205-60-15.
I really don't feel like spending some $150 for 2 new tires, when I have two tires kept in my garage for the past 4 years, which are very slightly used and their size is P195-60-15.
My mechanic wouldn't recommend it (but then he'd rather sell me 2 new tires...). I think that for a Front Wheel Drive, a slightly different size tires on the rear axle shouldn't create any problem for my car.
The current thinking is that tires that are more than 6 years old should be replaced. This seems to mean both the tires on the vehicle now, and the tires in your garage need to be replaced.
I realize this means spending some money, but your safety is at risk - how much is that worth?
Besides, your car will handle a little funny with smaller tires on the rear - might even be dangerous!
"....is this due to damage from their fast air wrenches they use?...."
Maybe, but the threads on nuts and bolts will wear, so it just might be one of those normal maintenance things.
"Should the lugs be oiled lightly to reduce friction heating during their speed gun removal?"
NO!!! The best answer I've heard is to clean the threads (both the nut and the stud) with brake cleaner. Oil (and antiseize) attracts dust and other abrasive stuff making wear more likely. If there is a enough heat being generated by the impact gun to cause a problem, then the problem is the nut/stud combination, not friction.
"Should I go back to the store for payment for the damaged stud and nut that I replaced myself at home?"
This tactic probably will not succeed. If you were the shop, would you consider this reimbursement? - Probably not!.
"They said it was fine to drive with only 4 nuts tightened."
The rear tires that are mounted on my car are 6 years old, but the 2 in my garage -- which I consider using now -- are 4 years old, and were hardly driven.
I'd like to know more TECHNICAL reasoning, and beyond "your car will handle a little funny"... After all the difference in size is very small, and visually unnoticable, probably.
I can't speak for capriracer, but I did have different tires on rear of a car back when radials were "new" to most people in US. I had bias ply snow tires with Michelin front tires. I only did that for about 3 months in middle of winter snow season. I had to slam on the brakes a few times, and invariably the rear end of the car wanted to come around. I did not have that trouble other times. This is probably an extreme: snow treads on dry pavement, bias ply, light rear end of car.
How much do two tires cost? I'd sell the old ones to a used tire place for people who buy them for their car cheaper or as spares, and buy matching tires. It could be your family when you find out the traction balance doesn't work with the two different tire sizes and types.
"Inter mixing performance tires can cause handling problems and cause vibrations due to mismatched tread compounds, tread designs and internal construction'
Note that Connor was referring to performance tires, but I bet he'd recommend a matched set in most circumstances. Feel free to ask him for another opinion.
Spring for the same size tires. Why look for trouble. You've been told here 2 or 3 times already. Spend the $ and get some piece of mind. Remember, only 4 little wheels hold and steer your 1 1/2 to 2 ton car. Jeeesh, I'll never understand people's logic about tires!
Hi I have an Acura TSX 2004. I just bought brand new 19 inch rims and I have 225/35 19inch tires on those rims. My back tires looks like it is negative cambering. Do i need a camber kit? I need help . Thnx
".... I think that for a Front Wheel Drive, a slightly different size tires on the rear axle shouldn't create any problem for my car."
The operative words here are "any problem".
It's hard to be precise because there are so many variavbles, but as a general rule, a more heavily loaded tire will reach traction saturation sooner. This means the traction will be more or less maxed out. If the rear tires max out first, then the vehicle will go into oversteer, which is a very difficult thing to control.
However (and here's why it's hard to be precise), it is possible to compensate by changing springs and/or sway bars. This is comon practice in racecars derived from street cars.
Using two different size tires on your car would not be a good idea. Your vehicle should have four wheel ABS on it. The ABS system works by measuring the speed of each tire at the hub and then comparing them. If it detect one or two wheels spinning at different speeds than the others then the system will turn on the ABS control which will engage the brakes. This being said I would not recommend using two different sizes on your car.
Thanks, everyone.
NOW I KNOW WHY I DON'T WANT TO USE MY 195 TIRES, AND SHOULD BY NEW 205 ONES.
Doesn't the antilock brake work by sensing a changing in wheel rotation relative to what it had been and relative to others in the group--not necessarily that they all have to rotate at the same speed. Front and back could be different.
Wasn't that problem with some early antilock brakes--if you locked up all 4 wheels at speed the car sensed you were stopped and quit cycling the antilock brakes? Wasn't there a problem with some Impalas-the previous RWD that police used and the antilocks didn't work?
I don't think ABS can "sense" impending lockup... I think it is as imidazol97 suggests... It compares the rate of rotation to the other wheels...
And, when ABS kicks in, it is releasing the brake, not applying it... So, going around a sharp corner wouldn't affect it, unless you were applying the brakes... and then, it would only release the brake on the one wheel....
Maybe "pending lockup" isn't the right phrase. I was thinking along the lines of "rate of deceleration".
I can understand why ABS might look at the other wheel speeds, but Conner said the brakes would be applied. I'm with you, I think they would be released (which is why I mentioned the sharp corner).
So in a FWD, smaller tires on the rear might caused the rear brakes to be released, which is not that big of a deal, since in a panic stop, practically all of the braking action occurs on the front.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for not having different sized tires on a vehicle.
I'm also all for any arguement that persuades someone to do the right thing, even if the arguement is wrong. (although the engineer in me cringed when I typed that last sentence.)
I still think the overriding issue was the age of the tires.
I agree with you completely.... I'd be worried about the tire itself, more than anything else...
But, anything that causes the ABS system to screw up is bad.... Granted, it won't cause your brakes to suddenly come on... But, anything that negatively affects your braking performance is not worth it to save $150 on a couple of tires...
And...riding around on mismatched sizes... That can't help any aspect of the vehicle's stability, handling, or braking...
If I can give a more TECHNICAL description of what else can be a factor with smaller tires on the rear I found that the weaker tire patch made the car really difficult when applying the brakes on a curve. The drift on the rear wheels was much greater than on the fronts so the rear would quietly slip outward requiring correction and requiring letting up on the brakes. In a real emergency, I would have been turned around quickly.
Also the fact the tires are older means the tread rubber is harder. So it would be less sticky than when new. See above problem description. This info came from someone in the tire business when I asked him to look at my X-Ones that are cracking and aging. He said the rubber hardens with age.
I am glad to hear the person will keep all four tires the same size for their safety.
Comments
Regards,
Highroller
The tires treated regularly (with Meguiars #40) had no weathering issues at all. The one that was NOT treated (spare) had numerous issues such as air loss, "rot" in some areas and cracking in some others.
I'm in the same boat with my low mileage Outback with the mounted snows; all 8 tires are 8 years old now.
I go back and forth between 303 and Vinylx, but at a buck an ounce, I don't bother spritzing my tires.
Steve, Host
The only reason why I changed it was as I recall it was getting close to the min required for "snow" tires over Highways 50 and 80 (to Reno, Tahoe areas in winter) I must be getting soft in my old age, for over the years it has been a no brainer for me to drive without even snow tires or even chains.
They were replace with Bridgestone AT Revo's.
It's easy to tell the diff between water based and oil based - - water based dressings are milky and watery in appearance. Oil based dressings are thicker and heavier feeling (almost like baby oil) and most are clear or some funky color.
303 is an excellent product because it is water based, has a UV sunscreen and has a high % of polymer protectant in it. Vinylex is a very good product too. Even Armor All Original Shine (must be the Original Shine product) is fine to use.
The tire mfr's are going to play CYA with the issue and recommend owners use nothing on the sidewalls. I know Michelin and Dunlop do not recommend the use of tire dressings. It's funny though; Michelin will tell you to not use a tire dressing on their tires, but then they introduce a line of tire and wheel care products......including a tire dressing! :confuse:
Once a tire develops a wear pattern, you can't reverse it without over-compensating. Put another way, once tread is worn off, it doesn't come back and the tread will always have uneven wear even if you fix the cause. The only way to tell if you've fixed the problem is either a new set of tires or measure the tread wear across the face of the tread at intervals to verify the tread is now wearing evenly.
Most vehicle alignment tolerances are way too wide. So you could have a problem but the "book" says it's "in spec".
There are some situations where tire wear is pretty uneven and there is very little you can do about it. For example, parking garages have pretty abrasive surfaces and sharp and frequent turns. This could result in the outside shoulders wearing more rapidly. However, usually folks are turning predominantly the same direction, so that might not be the case here. But looking at what turns are made in the normal route might give you a clue.
Hope this helps.
On a FWD, yes. Which is why regular rotation should be part of your maintenance of the vehicle.
"AND, if you have more weight balances on pair of tires compared to the fewer weight balances on the other pair of tires, is it possible that the more weight balances used on the pair of tires can cause uneven wear?"
Only if the weights don't balance out the assembly, but otherwise, no.
Most vehicle alignment tolerances are way too wide. So you could have a problem but the "book" says it's "in spec". "...
Actually your first paragraph quoted here is one reason why you can rotate too much. If you rotate at a faster interval say 3k vs a recommended of 10k, there is a tendency to overlook or gloss over the root cause/s until it is too late. The thinking would be if one notices it: the rotation will take care of this.
So for example there are options to guard against it:
1.the most accurate is to get the alignment checked. (biggie here is with a knowledgeable alignment person.)
2. measure across the tread in three places; inner, middle, outer
3. use chalk to imprint a white bar across the tread and see where the white disappears first.
On the subject of "in spec" alignment, I would agree the specs can be VERY wide. Sometimes one has to seek out folks who really understand what you are trying to accomplish, i.e ., longer wear, more even wear, better contact patch during cornering etc.
On the Corvette Z06 the factory specifications as delivered will wear out the inner part of the tread on the front tires WAY before the other parts of the tread. From the factory this alignment is lazer checked for "perfection. The factory specification is close to 1g slalom handling, and as much as possible greater/larger tire contact patch during cornering. So if one is willing to have a bit less than 1 g cornering capability in return for more even tread life, one needs a alignment person who can
1 understand that
2 make the technical translation, so indeed it can happen.
Either condition is "within specifications" . Front tire wear can be from 5k miles to 56,000 miles, again all "within specifications."
Do you mean just rub a line across the tire and then watch as you start driving? Might do that in 3 places around the wheel.
I really agree with having an alignment with someone who understands the geometry and understands the particular car model you have. They're worth their weight in gold.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Most of the stores I contacted that sell Kumho tires didn't stock this particular tire. They could order it, but even then their price wasn't anywhere close to that of the Tire Rack's. Most had this tire priced at $47-$53, and even when I asked if they would price match the Tire Rack's price and they said they would, they must have some pretty heafty mounting/balancing/disposal fees. The lowest price I could find was $234 mounted, and most places wanted $250-$300. This means they're charging anywhere from $15-$25 a tire for mounting/balancing/disposal. Maybe it's just me, but this fee seems awfully high if I'm buying the tires from them. I could see them charging this much if I bought the tires somewhere else and was taking them there to have them mounted.
Since I am an Air Force retiree I am entitled to use the facilities at any military installation. I live near an Air Force base so decided to call their auto hobby shop (this is where people can take their vehicles to work on them themselves) and find out how much they charge to mount and balance tires. Their fee is $6.75 per tire with no tire disposal fee. I decided to order the tires from the Tire Rack. My total was $162 including shipping. That makes my total $189, including mounting and balancing.
I guess I'm only saving $45, but hey, when you're on a budget every penny counts, right? I will post a review later after I've had the tires for a while. It shouldn't be too long as I put about 3K a month on my car. I do a lot of driving!
My understanding is that excessive wear on the lateral extremities of a tire is cause by toe angle. Wear on the outer part of tires is caused by toe in. Conversely, toe out will cause the inner part of the tire to wear more. However, toe in on the front aids stability and tracking while toe out yields more responsive, razor-like handling although the car is more subject to wallowing.
I believe race cars are setup with toe out and I would imagine this is the case with the Vette although I am not sure. I’d like to know where you can easily find the manufacturer’s specs for all cars and wish they would publish them in their catalogs.
BMWs are notorious for quick wear on the extremities and their wheel angles are setup for their unique handling characteristics.
By the way, my Outback now has 79K on the original Bridgestone Potenzas. Although I have rotated them about 6 times front-to-back and haven’t kept track of the rotation mileage intervals, I have noticed that there is more wear on 1) the outer part of the left tires and 2) the inner part of the right tires. I was perplexed by this because the car tracks neutral, no pulling to either side. I finally figured that it is because of my daily work route which has many more right hand curves that are quite severe.
Well, the Potenzas need replacing although I am determined to get 80K for my personal record book, shattering my previous best for tires which was previously about 40K. The Potenzas were extremely loyal and were decent in rain. Bite in snow ran out after about 40K, although they were never particularly masterful in snow. They were quiet but always squealed on turns which didn’t bother me. To this day there was never a sign of any distortion, never a shimmy with true direction in spite of withstanding more than enough potholes—this alone has amazed me. Any recommendations for their replacement?
One thing frustrating about tires, they are not easy to become familiar with, and once you buy them you are stuck unless you like squandering money. Would be nice to take one car, your car, and test 10 different tire types in snow, rain and summer sun—back to back on one weekend. Wouldn’t that be nice? Right.
;-)
Irregular / uneven tire wear can be caused by a number of things, but you've written the equations backwards. This is the way it should be expressed: Excessive toe in = outside shoulder wear.
Outside shoulder wear is not always caused by excessive toe in - sometimes too much positive camber can do the same thing. There are a variety of suspension items that can cause tires to wear in unusual ways.
For example, if a car experiences many right hand turns (like on and off ramps of freeways) then the outside shoulders of the left side and the inside shoulders of the right side MIGHT see more wear.
I'll be back when I have a bit of time to think about how to best answer the rest of your post.
Hope this helps.
Hmm, I think that's pretty much what I said.
Opps! I made a typing error. I meant to say "Excessive toe in => outside shoulder wear."
But even that doesn't convey what I wanted to really say.
Toe in CAN cause outside shoulder wear, but not always. Plus outside shoulder wear CAN be caused by other things.
Last Friday they partly removed a nut and said it was going to break off the stud if they continued but for on ly $40 they would take off the caliper and replace the stud. They said it was not their fault. However they have had the wheels on and off regularly since they inherited the National Tire Battery lifetime wheel balance and rotation guarantee.
I occasionally have rotated wheels myself. I notice that some nuts don't tighten as easily as others--is this due to damage from their fast air wrenches they use?
Should the lugs be oiled lightly to reduce friction heating during their speed gun removal?
Should I go back to the store for payment for the damaged stud and nut that I replaced myself at home?
They said it was fine to drive with only 4 nuts tightened.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Steve, Host
I really don't feel like spending some $150 for 2 new tires, when I have two tires kept in my garage for the past 4 years, which are very slightly used and their size is P195-60-15.
My mechanic wouldn't recommend it (but then he'd rather sell me 2 new tires...). I think that for a Front Wheel Drive, a slightly different size tires on the rear axle shouldn't create any problem for my car.
What do you think?
I realize this means spending some money, but your safety is at risk - how much is that worth?
Besides, your car will handle a little funny with smaller tires on the rear - might even be dangerous!
Maybe, but the threads on nuts and bolts will wear, so it just might be one of those normal maintenance things.
"Should the lugs be oiled lightly to reduce friction heating during their speed gun removal?"
NO!!! The best answer I've heard is to clean the threads (both the nut and the stud) with brake cleaner. Oil (and antiseize) attracts dust and other abrasive stuff making wear more likely. If there is a enough heat being generated by the impact gun to cause a problem, then the problem is the nut/stud combination, not friction.
"Should I go back to the store for payment for the damaged stud and nut that I replaced myself at home?"
This tactic probably will not succeed. If you were the shop, would you consider this reimbursement? - Probably not!.
"They said it was fine to drive with only 4 nuts tightened."
Limp home mode - OK, but get it fixedASAP!
I'd like to know more TECHNICAL reasoning, and beyond "your car will handle a little funny"... After all the difference in size is very small, and visually unnoticable, probably.
How much do two tires cost? I'd sell the old ones to a used tire place for people who buy them for their car cheaper or as spares, and buy matching tires. It could be your family when you find out the traction balance doesn't work with the two different tire sizes and types.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am here to ask a TECHNICAL question. Of course spending some $130 on new tires is an option, and I may do just that.
But I want to know whether there is a TECHNICAL issue here, that's all.
I need a PROFESSIONAL advice, please.
Different size tires are not to be mixed on a car unless that's how it was designed. Check your owner's manual.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
connortirerack, "Ask Connor at The Tire Rack" #733, 4 Mar 2005 1:06 pm
Note that Connor was referring to performance tires, but I bet he'd recommend a matched set in most circumstances. Feel free to ask him for another opinion.
Steve, Host
Jeeesh, I'll never understand people's logic about tires!
The Sandman :confuse:
The operative words here are "any problem".
It's hard to be precise because there are so many variavbles, but as a general rule, a more heavily loaded tire will reach traction saturation sooner. This means the traction will be more or less maxed out. If the rear tires max out first, then the vehicle will go into oversteer, which is a very difficult thing to control.
However (and here's why it's hard to be precise), it is possible to compensate by changing springs and/or sway bars. This is comon practice in racecars derived from street cars.
Hope this helps.
Maybe! What is the camber? What's it supposed to be?
However, a relatively new car shouldn't a camber kit unless it was lowered.
BTW, since the fenders kinda 'tuck in" at the bottom, it may appear that there is a camber problem when there isn't.
Hope this helps.
Using two different size tires on your car would not be a good idea. Your vehicle should have four wheel ABS on it. The ABS system works by measuring the speed of each tire at the hub and then comparing them. If it detect one or two wheels spinning at different speeds than the others then the system will turn on the ABS control which will engage the brakes. This being said I would not recommend using two different sizes on your car.
Thanks, everyone.
NOW I KNOW WHY I DON'T WANT TO USE MY 195 TIRES, AND SHOULD BY NEW 205 ONES.
Steve, Host
But what bothers me is that ABS works by sensing impending lockup. What difference does it make if the tire diameters are different?
Also, does this mean the ABS would kick in when you go around a sharp corner?
Wasn't that problem with some early antilock brakes--if you locked up all 4 wheels at speed the car sensed you were stopped and quit cycling the antilock brakes? Wasn't there a problem with some Impalas-the previous RWD that police used and the antilocks didn't work?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And, when ABS kicks in, it is releasing the brake, not applying it... So, going around a sharp corner wouldn't affect it, unless you were applying the brakes... and then, it would only release the brake on the one wheel....
regards,
kyfdx
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I can understand why ABS might look at the other wheel speeds, but Conner said the brakes would be applied. I'm with you, I think they would be released (which is why I mentioned the sharp corner).
So in a FWD, smaller tires on the rear might caused the rear brakes to be released, which is not that big of a deal, since in a panic stop, practically all of the braking action occurs on the front.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for not having different sized tires on a vehicle.
I'm also all for any arguement that persuades someone to do the right thing, even if the arguement is wrong. (although the engineer in me cringed when I typed that last sentence.)
I still think the overriding issue was the age of the tires.
But, anything that causes the ABS system to screw up is bad.... Granted, it won't cause your brakes to suddenly come on... But, anything that negatively affects your braking performance is not worth it to save $150 on a couple of tires...
And...riding around on mismatched sizes... That can't help any aspect of the vehicle's stability, handling, or braking...
regards,
kyfdx
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Also the fact the tires are older means the tread rubber is harder. So it would be less sticky than when new. See above problem description. This info came from someone in the tire business when I asked him to look at my X-Ones that are cracking and aging. He said the rubber hardens with age.
I am glad to hear the person will keep all four tires the same size for their safety.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Good, now I am fully convinced to just DUMP those 2 hardly-used old tires, and get my good old '95 a couple new ones...
Thanks, everybody. I think we ALL learned something here.
Or at least TRYING....
What makes a tire noisier or quieter... Is it just a matter of QUALITY AND PRICE, or is it the DESIGN?