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The Stock Market and Investing

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A straw man argument is a deflection of the subject at hand.

    The supreme court has upheld the legal opinion that a corporation has the rights of an individual, a view directly applicable to the GS case.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    edited April 2010
    Len and Tag,

    Since we are all in agreement about the stock market, does it mean it will collapse :D ?

    BTW, I was short corn futures last Monday due to great planting weather and huge supplies. I took a loss (not a big loss) because I could not understand why the damn thing kept rallying last week. Why didn't we get the GS news about last Monday or Tuesday? I would have made a great profit. The corm and beans sold off late in the session on Friday and they are both or their rear end this morning. The corn, for example, is 14 cents lower as I write this message. That is worth $700 per contract. The fantastic spring weather in the Midwest is obviously also contributing to the big sell-off this morning. They don't say "timing is everything" for no reason. :mad:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    Maybe that volcano is Iceland getting revenge. It's funny to see how, in typical British fashion, the limeys won't take responsibility for their own part in that mess.

    GS deserves to have the book thrown at them...but it's not right if they are the only ones targeted, there should be an especially rotten prison built for the cowards of the financial world.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    GS deserves to have the book thrown at them...but it's not right if they are the only ones targeted, there should be an especially rotten prison built for the cowards of the financial world.

    You are spot on!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If the Supreme Court rulings are applied, GS may get fined but the individuals are going to skate free I fear. This would be IMO a grave injustice and further undermine investor confidence.

    I mean, wouldn't you take risks if you knew only your company but not you personally, would be punished?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The supreme court has upheld the legal opinion that a corporation has the rights of an individual, a view directly applicable to the GS case.

    I am not sure how you have arrived at that conclusion. I will have to think on it for a while. I think the bottom line is GS executives have many friends in Congress that will look out for their best interest. If none of them are brought up on criminal charges by the DOJ how will the Supreme Court get involved.

    My point being that charging a corporation vs the individuals within the corporation is a miscarriage of justice.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Point well taken. I guess what I'm driving at is that the legal defense for GS will be that the individuals are not culpable---the "Nuremberg Defense" basically--LOL!

    (i.e. "I was merely following orders").

    One would have to prove, it seems, evil intent rather than mere stupidity, such as "I guessed wrong".

    I've recently heard this argued both ways; on the one hand, the defense is that, "yes, it was slimy, but legal" and the other "you hedge your bets both ways, --that's fraud".

    So not only might the individuals involved get off the hood, they may come away rich from it. THAT really rankles. :mad:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    THAT really rankles.

    We are in full agreement. Nail the individuals not the corporation. I feel the same way about the criminal behavior of some Toyota executives involved in deception dealing with safety.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    This would be IMO a grave injustice and further undermine investor confidence.

    I totally agree. They have to prosecute and place all those individuals that cheated behind bars for years. Anything less would be a great injustice.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I have no problem whatsoever with a hired attorney presenting a spirited defense (it's the American way) but if some politicians step in from either Party to condone this behavior on the grounds that to prosecute it would "stifle" enterprise, I think they'll be stepping on a third rail.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    Maybe we should then hold them to the Nuremberg prosecution ideal - ex post facto justice. We can make some new laws and then hold the suits accountable after the fact. At the very least there are a lot of people in this sector - especially the hedge funders and derivatives speculators - who should be stripped of every penny and asset they have ever acquired. In too many cases it is almost like some kind of economic terrorism.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    When one thinks of the human cost, when in such cases as the funds ripped off were related to lifelong pensions----this is really E-V-I-L incarnate.

    It's gonna take a LOT of redemptive work to get rid of this karma.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's gonna take a LOT of redemptive work to get rid of this karma.

    We should start with George Soros that made over $2 billion on the oil run-up in 2008. He is the largest hedge fund operator in the US, if I am not mistaken.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's a mouthful, or keyboardfull in this case.

    Cut and paste. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    edited April 2010
    I need some more capital to get my guillotine blade/noose factory up and running...wanna cash in some of those gold coins and join me? :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was thinking of building a castle like my neighbors with a moat and gun emplacements. To keep out all the riff raff. I went on a tour at Christmas time. Cool place. I would hate to heat it in the winter. About 10k sq ft. The owner has the local Neptune Society franchise. He bought it from the builder. The builder spent 16 years building his dream home and then went bankrupt.

    The secret is keeping your dreams within your means.

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    edited April 2010
    Oh, that's pretty gaudy. I'd spend my fortune in a much different manner. Not to mention, a few IED or RPGs etc thrown by the riff raff would probably leave a mark.

    Along the lines of what you say, I think one of the keys to happiness is living below your means.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    When one thinks of the human cost....

    The financial crisis effected me and my family personally in a very big way. I have literally rebuilt my life and my business. I sold the Porsche, the big mansion, personal property, and revised my business model. Fortunately, I have the know-how, and I am now doing very well again, but I will never forget it... never. And, I have no further desire for the mansion and expensive cars any more, and I think that is awesome. My priorities have been re-focused in a good way, IMO.

    Unfortunately, so many victims of the financial crisis have not been so fortunate, and those victims include many good American families and innocent children... and that really pisses me off!

    TM
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    If someone builds their business from scratch, rather than having it handed to them, they have a great advantage when things go wrong. They know how to fix things whereas someone who had a business just handed to them do not have a clue.

    Because you moved quickly,decisively, and successfully, I am guessing that you started and ran your business yourself so that you knew all the ins and outs and what had to be done. So you did it. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Hardly the same thing. Soros made VIDEOS for cripes sake, telling people HOW he mad money from the oil crisis. And from currency speculation before that.

    Like him or not, he's a game-player, not a game rigger. Why is he any different than Warren Buffett?

    Selling flashlights in a black out for a profit may not be noble, but it's not illegal. Causing a blackout by sabotage and then selling flashlights IS.

    Big diff my good man! :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited April 2010
    So as long as it is legal, to hell with morals and ethics? I think if you scrutinize what Soros has done in Europe, even you would question his ethics. My guess, most of the GS execs are no worse than Soros. immoral but legal.

    What you are saying, it was OK for Starbucks to sell water to fire fighters right after 911 for $5 per bottle because they did not fly the planes into the buildings. To me that is unethical, yet legal. I do think some gouging laws have gone into affect because of unscrupulous people.

    It claimed that Soros makes huge financial gains by speculating against western central banks, in order to use his profits to help the emerging post-communist economies of eastern Europe and former Soviet Union, to assist them to create what he calls an "Open Society." The Time statement is entirely accurate in the first part, and entirely inaccurate in the second. He robs from rich western countries, and uses his profits to rob even more savagely from the East, under the cloak of "philanthropy." His goal is to loot wherever and however he can. Soros has been called the master manipulator of "hit-and-run capitalism."

    http://www.questionsquestions.net/docs04/engdahl-soros.html

    I cannot say about Warren Buffett. My guess is he is a lucky investor.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Like the entire "too big to fail" financial community as well as the "Tainted Two" U.S. auto mfg., I predict some big fish at GS will fry as well as ML and the rest but nothing more. Sure these guys will be injured but will heal in the long run

    These are the engines of the economy globally. I predict in 6 months, this will be a non-event which results in tighter regs.

    That's All, Folks. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Your flexibility protects you from any real harm and I'm glad you are prospering. I took a 50% cut in income as a result after a 19 month stint on my butt!! :sick:

    But I'm back contributing as well. I have faith that all the families who fall on hard times will find a way to bounce back. :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I hope you read that investigation of one of the most corrupt people on earth. Makes guys like Cheney seem like Mother Teresa.

    The most important of such "Jews who are not Jews," are the Rothschilds, who launched Soros's career. They are members of the Club of the Isles and retainers of the British royal family. This has been true since Amschel Rothschild sold the British Hessian troops to fight against George Washington during the American Revolution.

    Soros is American only in his passport. He is a global financial operator, who happens to be in New York, simply because "that's where the money is," as the bank robber Willy Sutton once quipped, when asked why he always robbed banks. Soros speculates in world financial markets through his offshore company, Quantum Fund NV, a private investment fund, or "hedge fund." His hedge fund reportedly manages some $11-14 billion of funds on behalf of its clients, or investors---one of the most prominent of whom is, according to Soros, Britain's Queen Elizabeth, the wealthiest person in Europe.

    The Quantum Fund is registered in the tax haven of the Netherlands Antilles, in the Caribbean. This is to avoid paying taxes, as well as to hide the true nature of his investors and what he does with their money.


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18534
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Ah....so Buffett is an "investor" but Soros "robs even more savagely".

    I love it. I wonder when the Vatican will canonize Sam Walton? :P

    Hey, no dissing the Queen! :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Ah....so Buffett is an "investor" but Soros "robs even more savagely"

    I think buying stock or a company and sitting on it for future profits is more in line with what Buffett does. However his recent ties with GS have tainted a relatively clean slate. There are no questions about the unscrupulous dealings of George Soros. He drives up monetary and commodity prices and then makes money when they tank. He may be at the top of the Globalist food chain. He is a Rothschild protege'. Not an ounce of morality in his body. He has given capitalism a bad name.

    As much as I would like to see the crooks at GS do prison time, it would only scratch the surface of corruption. My thinking is at least half the members of Congress should do hard time.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not likely. They are elected officials. We should maybe jail the people that vote for them. :P

    Soros just works the system. Capitalism has no "loyalties". That's why it's such a good economic system and such a bad political one.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited April 2010
    Because you moved quickly,decisively, and successfully, I am guessing that you started and ran your business yourself so that you knew all the ins and outs and what had to be done. So you did it.

    Hmmm... damn good guess. Actually, sounds more like good insight, and I certainly can't disagree with it, cause it's true. I did indeed start it all from scratch... very little scratch. I got total zip from family, or anyone else for that mattter.

    Makes me wonder what I should give to, or do for, my own kids one day. Would I do them any favors to give them a head start?

    Frankly, if you ask me, although almost anyone can have kids, being a good parent is quite another matter, and possibly the toughest job of all.

    Good to be posting with you again... look forward to more. :)

    TM
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    You have done a splendid job of survival, and I congratulate you....Further you have invested and re invested in a marketplace that is so full of crosscurrents and non enforced rules, that it boggles the mind.....I-- like you- - think, and feel let down by our different agencies that for whatever the reason did not do their jobs, and the people who ultimately suffered is a real shame...I won`t forget either...Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Tony,

    Over the years it has become quite evident to me that you are one of the kindest people I've run across, even if only on the internet.

    You certainly care so much about others, and it shows. IMO, the world could sure use more people like you... we'd all be a whole lot better off.

    TM
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    edited April 2010
    Tag,

    Same here. I made everything I own myself and went thru college on student loans. I've paid my son's first year of college and am wondering if doing that is making life's challenges too easy.

    BTW - I have to always laugh at how Wall Street has become the power broker of valuations yet these guys couldn't even begin to accomplish what you did with your business and life during the downturn. These guys couldn't run a corner candy store IMO. That's why the only way they know how to make money is to fix things. Can you imagine a hedge fund guy like Paulson stacking the deck with the worst mortgages out there, getting a fool to sell them to someone else and then betting against them. That's a smart businessman? That's the equivalent of a drug kingpin IMO. If I did something like Paulson did and had the media report it like that I'd never want to be seen in public again I'd be so ashamed.

    You're an entrepenneur and should be proud of the turnaround in your business. Only a skilled, decisive operator and leader can do that.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You're an entrepenneur and should be proud of the turnaround in your business. Only a skilled, decisive operator and leader can do that.

    Takes one to know one. ;)

    You've got quite a resume yourself, my friend... a whole lot to be proud of, and certainly thankful for.

    TM
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    You certainly care so much about others, and it shows. IMO, the world could sure use more people like you... we'd all be a whole lot better off.

    I told Tony the exact same thing several months ago, but it is worth repeating. He truly cares about others and he seeks justice for all.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Tag and Len,

    You two guys are true visionaries who know how to adapt to drastic changes in the economic environment. I very much doubt that I could have done the same thing (change direction) if I were in your situation. I have been fortunate that my business did not suffer anywhere as much as a lot of others over the past couple years. I basically "stayed the course" and hoped for the best. Of course living in the Midwest has helped a lot in this regard.

    BTW, did you guys see the recent (last week) Forbes article dealing with the best cities in the nation for business and careers? And, guess which city was named number 1. Yes, none other than Des Moines, IA. People (especially on either coast, including some of my friends from the Boston area) are under the wrong impression that a place like Des Moines is nothing but a farm town in the middle of nowhere. They think it is "Hicksville, USA". Man, that impression could not be much further from the truth. Here is the link. I think you will find the article quite interesting. Please pay close attention to what is says about Des Moines.

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/13/best-places-for-business-beltway-business-place- s-10_lander.html?boxes=Homepagelighttop
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    "Everyone is a genius in a boom, but it takes real talent to be successful when most others aren't".

    Anyone ever read "The Drunkard's Walk"? This is about random theory. There's a part of the book that tracks "successful" fund managers over time---it's quite an illuminating look at our misperceptions of "success".

    Drunkard's Walk
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    edited April 2010
    Tag and Charlie and everyone else,

    How'd you guys like those Apple earnings? I think $300 comes sooner than I thought for that company. At least with Apple you know the earnings are real and they bring real product to consumers. With GS you have to wonder how they stacked the deck in their favor simply to steal. That company brings nothing to the public. Reminds me of the aliens in Independence Day who destroy and move on. They have nothing but an agenda to take from the consumer and destroy the middleclasss in the process. I had to laugh at the cut back in comp to 43% from the usual 50%. There's a last minute decision that was made over the weekend.

    Tag - If I were ready for a car today the lead might be the S-class hybrid. Still loving the GL as much as ever. The only thing I dislike about it is the Nav and that's because I've been badly spoiled by Lexus. Leaning a lot toward an S-class in December at the moment. Thing that scares me is that nav. Do you know where we are in the cycle for the next S?

    Chalie -- nature exploded here. My forrest trees leafed out about 3 eeks early. My crabapple has already lost a lot of flowers. Usually it doesn't even bloom until around May 5th. This year it bloomed in the first week of April. Everything is 2-4 weeks ahead of time. My theory is that the snow covered the ground so much and so long this winter that it never got deeply frozen. Then we got a very warm March and a blazing April that's already had us in central NJ in the 90's several days and 80's a lot more than that.

    Guys - I did create a Gmail address and made my e-mail public and will keep it so for a week or so.

    Finally - I also agree about Tony. Wonderful person. Someday we should try and all meet.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    I'll butt in - a new S-class is several years off, probably 2014. The 2010 model is facelifted, most easily spotted by the LED running lights. The hybrid is an interesting car, in that the new tech is actually in the base model.

    I like that comparison between GS and the aliens in Independence Day too :shades:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I see that "Lords of Finance" just won the Pulitizer for history---this book claims that the Great Depression of '29 was caused by a small group of central bankers and their highly fallible decisions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    I haven't seen the book, but it sounds right. Those bankers also ended up creating endless civil unrest and threw a lot of fuel on a fire that eventually became WW2...the consequences of which will never escape us.

    It's not a large group who has masterminded the current mess either.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't know about "mastermind"--that implies that they anticipated all the consequences, which I don't think is true.Prosperity abhors civil unrest.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,044
    I used "mastermind" somewhat sarcastically...as the inability of most of these guys to see past the next quarter doesn't make them look too competent.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    On occasion I give an observation of what I see on a road trip...This time from S Carolina to N Carolina....Roads were fairly busy and really alot of truck traffic, which would be be indicative of economic activity.....This time the cabin came back to life fairly easily except the tv and computer.....Speaking with the service people, instead of how hard things have been, they are all rather up beat, and one person had to go to his loan closing,,,Funds to be used to build a fairly large garage..Encouraging...There is no comparison to last year when almost everyone was down and worried....I would guess this is a good recovery underway.....

    On another subject, I was helping my daughter out with the farm, which had, and still has a number of problems..First the septic tank, and then the roads, and water etc....All infrastructure stuff, and probably a little like our whole country....Instead of any new car at this time I need something to get around on, and think I will get a John Deere Gator, to go along with the other John Deere equipment :) I haven`t gotten anything like that in years--something for me :) The only problem is now I would need something to get the dirt into the small bed, other than a shovel...One thing leads to another, so apparently I will be doing more for the recovery than paying taxes...Thing really cost alot more than they use to just ten years ago....and thanks for the kind words...Keeps a person humble and appreciative...Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    edited April 2010
    This is a difficult post. I don't want to do it. I would rather continue to believe that the market is going to keep going higher and higher and higher, and post my optimism to that effect.

    But... I am reconsidering. Why? Because I think it is possible that this latest rally, which has been incredible to say the least, might be coming to a... pause. Not an end, but a genuine pause. I think there's been a drunken nature to the market lately, and it needs time to catch its breath.

    I am not suggesting that I am going to sell off, but I am going to consider carefully which stocks may be at their top for a considerable time... sell some of them, and instead purchase stocks that appear to have better growth potential.

    I honestly do not know the specifics of which stocks I am going to sell or buy, but I do know that I am going to take a hard look at all of them, and I am going to get out the scalpel as might be needed, and cut away the fat, if I find any.

    I suggest all those here that have large positions in numerous stocks take a close look.

    I will try to keep you all posted on what decisions I make and why I make them.

    Do any of you share my concerns/perspective?

    TM
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,564
    >Do any of you share my concerns/perspective?

    I also see uncertainty for the next several months. We have had a nice ride back up for those who didn't divest on the way down.

    But whenever things start making me think that we're doing well, I think about taking part off the table. We're back to 11,000 and the top was 14,000.

    The other side of the picture is that the markets climb a wall of worry.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did not go to cash on the last crash, and now I am just ahead of where I was the at the peak in 2007, in my Fidelity 401K. The $million dollar question is which day do I sell a big percentage of my account. I would probably be happy with where it is now. Too many decisions. I am currently at 52% above where we hit bottom in the market. A big part is the 693% gain on Ford Stock.

    How much higher can "F" go?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    How much higher can "F" go?

    Quite a bit higher... IMO. But more slowly, and should continue to rise over the next few years, with some bumps along the way. I view the company as a great long-term hold.

    (That is, unless the economy melts down again, in which case the auto industry would go back into the dumps.)

    TM
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Even if the economy dumps, that would certainly kill Chrysler and perhaps GM, leaving Ford as the only player---so maybe it's still a good bet. They'd just be the 600 lb gorilla trimmed down to 400 lbs, in a smaller cage :P
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I'd buy Hyundai stock instead of Ford at the moment.

    Regards,
    OW
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited April 2010
    Hmmm....that's interesting...I've never even looked at that stock before. The new Sonata sure seems like a winner. Very nice styling (finally!)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    I have a South Korean ETF and Hyundai makes up about 3.5% of their holdings. It's the fund's 5th biggest position - Samsung is the biggest with about 18%.

    The fund is up about 10% since inception and about 75% this year (the prior 3 years barely show on the radar). It trails the MSCI Korea Index index by ~.5%.
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