Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

scape2

I would much rather be seen in a mini-ute than a mini-van! I bought a mini-ute just for that reason. The wife and I wanted nothing to do with a mini-van.
I use the 4x4 mode in my mini-ute often. I use it in winter to get to the mountains and on the logging roads/access roads to get to my favorite fishing spots. The "car based" mini-utes will do just fine for the average person on gravel roads/dirt roads/snow and so on...

paisan

Side note tell your dad that he should engage the 4wd 1x a month or else he'll kill the seal in the Transfercase and have a BIG bill when he does engage it.

-mike

michitake

I've read a few amusing, obviously slap-dash reviews from so-called auto-reviewers who give the Saturn bad marks for "typical GM yawning chasm" gaps in the body panels. Duh. Sounds like someone is lost in a time warp. The plastic body panels need more space to expand and contract in the heat. I thought everyone knew that...

kens

Also, don't forget that many mini-utes use part-time AWD systems that are purely FWD until slippage occurs.

In order for AWD to benefit handling on dry roads, it needs to have some amount of power already going to the rear wheels. For example, Audi/VW uses Quattro that starts at 50:50, BMW's system is 35/65 IIRC and Subaru has a 50:50 for MT and 45/55 for VTD AT.

Ken

tidester

The plastic body panels need more space to expand and contract in the heat. I thought everyone knew that...

That's an interesting point! The largest thermal coefficient for a plastic that I could dig up is about 8×10^-5in/in/°F; (for Polyvinylidene Fluoride a PVDF Homopolymer). This means that over, say, a 100°F temperature range, a 60" panel will expand nearly half an inch and is about 10 times as much as steel. (I got the numbers from here.

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

mmspeal

In a lot of chat rooms, you can key in another user's name and click ignore if they are bothering you. That way you can continue on in the conversation but not even waste the space by seeing the "ignoree's" comments on your screen. I've been on vacation for a week - just getting through all the posts now - ignoring just one person (because their comments are pointless) could have saved me a lot of time in catching up!

carseeker4

Being that I had a near miss when lightning struck a utility pole we were approaching....I wonder... what would happen to those plastic body panels (not to mention the passengers!) if the car were struck by lightning? We were driving in our Grand Am when the lightning missed us by about 20ft! I bought the Santa Fe for the tougher weather conditions but the storm was quite unexpected and here we were in about the worst storm I have ever driven in with our "less tough" vehicle. Anyway regarding GM body panels, our old Lumina was OK mechanically, but the body was awful. I swear the door actually shifted position over the years resulting in a slowly widening gap between the doors. So while the Saturn's gaps may be needed to allow for expansion, they are still GM and GM body work is really bad these days.... whatever happened to "Body by Fischer"?

ateixeira

jimbob17: you'll be fine. Even with tires meant for dry weather my Forester does well in the snow.

tidester: interesting bit of trivia, you'll have to share that at one of the chats.

-juice

dindak

Our office administrator has a 95 Saturn SL and the panels are snug as they can be. Our 84 Fiero polymer panels (by Fisher) held up fine, (unfortunately the 4-speed stick did not. The technology has only improved since then so I'm sure the VUE panels are just fine.

The benefits of those panels is great so it's worth having the slightly larger gaps.

tidester

In a lot of chat rooms, you can key in another user's name and click ignore if they are bothering you.

I've seen that too and it does come in handy. I don't know whether the software we use has that capability but will check into it. However, I'd place getting a better search capability higher on the priority list!

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

tidester

...you'll have to share that at one of the chats.

That invitation should go to michitake who raised the issue. I only confirmed it with some numbers. In any case, I should try harder to make it to the chats!

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

baggs32

"However, I'd place getting a better search capability higher on the priority list!"

I second that!

jimbob17

Thanks to those that answered. After I posed the question I thought some more and wondered what off road means to the readers. I considered that maybe the criteria for off road was how much risk you wanted to take with a 20-25K investment. While its new, I probably would limit its ventures into the variable topography. I might limit my enthusiasm for jarring my fillings loose until its book value was minuscule. Even when my 87 GL was 12+ years old I treated it like a baby because after I bounced across the countryside I still had to take it to work. 8-)

scape2

All this "offroad ability" is a marketing gimmick to 90 percent or more of us. I believe Ford/HOnda/Toyota/Saturn/Hyundia/Subaru went in the right direction when offering a small SUV. They went for the majority of the market. The people who wanted a nice ride, good handling, yet be able to traverse a logging road/access road and snow covered road when needed..
mich, I think the plastic panels are a great idea. I wish other manufacturers would take a look at this technology. With kids you get dents/dings from bikes, roller blades, balls ect..

dindak

Dings and scrapes are unavoidable when you have kids. Even if you don't, your neighbors kids will always help out. Since moving to a house in the burbs, I can really see the good in polymer panels.

paisan

September 21st we are having another Pine Barrens Trail Ride! All SUVs welcome (even the mini-utes)

http://isuzu-suvs.com/events for info.

-mike

dindak

Looks like another small SUV will be here in the next year or two.

http://www.auto.com/industry/gm14_20020814.htm

dindak

We love our polymer panels. Our Civic has 2 big dings on the passenger door and I have no idea where they came from. I think we will be happy with the durability of our Vue's doors.

ateixeira

The Forester's cladding serves a similar purpose, up to a certain height anyway.

I was rear ended by a Saturn, and while my damage wasn't that bad the Saturn crumpled badly. Crash test scores haven't been all that good, so I wonder if they could keep the wonderful ding-free panels but improve on crash protection.

-juice

dindak

Saturn VUE was rated "good" in the last round of crash tests along with the new CR-V. Saturn VUE is a very safe little SUV, the polymer panels cover a strong steel cage underneath.

p0926

I saw my first Vue the other day. From the back it looks remarkably like a minivan. From the side its got more of the tall wagon look. It certainly looks bigger than its actual dimensions.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

dindak: that's great. How about side impact crash tests? That's where the panels are.

Just curious.

BTW, heard a rumor that Honda may supply 50k engines and trannys for the Vue in the future, and it's supposedly the 3.5l V6 and 5 speed from the Odyseey. If so, that would be class-leading power, and maybe ratios for the auto tranny, too. Anyone confirm?

-juice

dindak

Not sure if they did side impacts, but I suspect it will do ok there if they have not.

The 3.5L will be an option for 2004 as far as I know. GM is trading diesel engines for the Honda V6 gas engines.

ateixeira

Yep, Isuzu diesels for Europe. GM owns Isuzu, and Honda knows a good thing when they see it.

-juice

jimbob17

scape2- I agree. The 87 GL I had could walk the walk so I bought the 2003 Forester because I felt it overcame the handicaps of the GL. I am confident the small SUV will meet my requirements and get 25-27 mpg as well.

p0926

Speaking of gas mileage... I've exceeded 30 mpg twice this summer in my Forester (400 miles per tank).

-Frank P.

ateixeira

You got me, I've only gone 396 miles.

My wife's Legacy, also with a 2.5l engine but with a 1 gallon bigger tank, goes 400 miles routinely.

-juice

carseeker4

I took our Santa Fe to refill our propane tank for our grill, and had to make a quick little manuever and the empty tank tipped and the top edge of the tank which shields the nozzle dinged the interior driver's side door panel. Not a big ding, but noticable. Any ideas on how this might be fixed. I know they had one of those "plastic and vinyl" repair kits advertised on TV...are they any good? Any input appreciated. Thanks.

ateixeira

I haven't tried any, but I've seen them at Trak Auto. The tough part may be color matching.

Do you have cargo tie-downs? I carry about 8 bungee cords all the time, to secure stuff like that. If you got in an accident, it becomes a projectile that can harm passengers.

Cargo covers at least keep them in the back, but you still get the damage.

Good luck with the fix, maybe share pics?

-juice

carseeker4

...I have a number of tie-downs which I could have used and I have the bungee cords. Just too lazy to use them! (I was out all that morning in the heat doing yardwork and my patience was running a bit thin!). I have looked on the Internet and seen some interesting products. I might swing by Pep Boys and see what they have. You're right. The color will be the toughest thing. Thanks for your input.

odie6l

known as the Escape M-ONE-11, this thing is pretty wicked loking and hopefully Ford brings it out over here instead of just Australia. I can tell you I would buy one as a step up from my regular Escape XLT 4wd

here's the link (click on the pics to enlarge){and remember these are Australian pictures which means Right hand drive);

http://www.autoweb.com.au/id_FOR/doc_for0110114/article.html

Odie

scape2

I don't know how well this would sell here in the U.S. its hard to say.. Kind of like a mini pickup/SUV.. Looks sharp though..

dindak

I think Ford should bring that one to North America. Very cool and could likely sell in limited numbers as a niche vehicle. Ford needs new products to generate excitement. People generally like the Escape so they should build on that vehicle name.

ateixeira

Interesting, but Ford already has the Sport Trac, which isn't much different in size.

Maybe as the next generation Sport Trac, to replace the old Explorer-based one?

-juice

rsholland

if I'm not mistaken, uses the same frame/wheelbase as the Ranger Extended Cab pickup. That being the case, my guess is that it won't be replaced until the Ranger is.

Bob

mmspeal

You know ... I love the look of the Sport Trac but the more I look at it, the more I think it would be kind of useless. The box really isn't big enough to put anything into and neither is the inside. Is it more just for looks than for uselfulness?

rsholland

The bed is not long, but it is quite deep. In fact, I think it's deeper than any other pickup bed on the market.

Bob

paisan

It's another "Image" vehicle.

Bed is too small to be worthwhile, the rear seat is a joke. I guess if you compare it to a sedan it's not so bad, it's got a bigger trunk, but rear seats are smaller than a sedan.

-mike

ateixeira

I think there is a market for light duty crew cab pickups. Heavy duty pickups exist in adundance, I'm talking about little ones for Harry Homeowner.

-juice

paisan

I see that too, but most harry homemakers will pickup a $10K Ranger 2wd extended bed w/o any options if they really need it that often.

-mike

rsholland

for small or family crew cabs. In my neck of the woods they're everywhere. Hence, the new Baja...

Bob

ateixeira

Long bed Rangers' invoice starts at $12,673, but maybe with rebates it could be cheaper. Though I doubt you'd be able to find one without lots of options.

But those are 2 seaters, so you're talking about a single-purpose truck. Most people want one vehicle to serve many purposes, and even extended cabs ($14.5k for starters) don't have usable back seats, not on compacts.

-juice

rsholland

where I live. I also see a lot of Ford F-150 Super Crews, as well as Avalanches and Chevy 1500HD crew cabs. The family crew cab is a huge market.

Bob

dindak

You are right. Avalanches and Sport Tracs are very popular. I think the Escape version would sell ok also for people who want something a little smaller than the Sport Trac.

I think you will see it come to NA.

lark6

I looked at the '00 Nissan Frontier Crew Cab for about 2 days, until I realized that the majority of the things I'd be hauling shouldn't be exposed to the elements. Then I looked at the Xterra for about 15 minutes, or until the salesman told me I was too old (36 at the time) to be considering the Xterra and tried to push me into the ridiculously overpriced Pathfinder.

I haven't looked back, though there are times when I wish I had an old pickup as my hobby car rather than the Lark.

Ed

paisan

a few years ago my buddy bought a stripped down ranger for about $9K. AT, bench seat, no AC, no radio, extended bed, 2wd, 4cyl, thing has 200K on it now and has hauled all kinds of stuff and been beaten to death without major problems. For $9k you can't beat it. If you want something that is a jack of all trades it will be a master of none.

-mike

odie6l

Man am I glad that I did not get the Continental Tires when I bought my 2001. I just saw on the news today that they are being recalled for the same reason that the Fireblowns were. Glad I got my Goodyears.

Odie

scape2

the tire recall is only for certian sizes and SUV's not the Escape/Tribute... I have continentals on my Escape but they are P235's not the 275's or 265's they speak of.... But... I can only hold my breath...

paisan

Its funny does Ford just buy all the rejects? Seems odd that 2 different tire manufacturers have had similar problems on one manufacturer's vehicles...

-mike

mtngal

I read an article about the Ford/Firestone thing when it first hit the news. The conclusion of that article was that Ford was putting on tires that had marginal characteristics for the vehicle they were putting them on (and in the case of the Explorer, recommending too low air pressure to compensate for vehicle handling problems). I haven't seen anything that substantially contradicts this theory yet (lots of people who disagree, but nothing to refute it).

There is another factor in all this, too. And that is speed. Are manufacturers required to provide equipment that will stand up to excessive (and illegal) speeds? Would this constitute abuse of the vehicle, and therefore not the manufacturers responsibility? For instance, I haven't bought dedicated snow tires for winter driving, because 80 percent of my commute is high speed highway, at warmer temperatures. So I'm concerned about heat, handling characteristics and excessive wear. Where does the manufacturer's responsibility end, and the owner/driver start?