Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

clever1

jaserb: Thank you for breathing some fresh air back into this forum! I agree with everything you said (although my experience with a new 3.7 Liberty 4x4 has been yielding an average above 20mpg in mixed suburban traffic -- apparently not so unusual and not nearly as bad as many expected).

steve: Interesting to note that Foresters are now coming out of Vancouver, Washington, although much of what I'm reading still refers to the model as coming out of Japan. Funny, Subaru isn't making any big announcements about that. Regardless, it's a very nice machine.

stever

I think Vancouver is just the sole point of entry for them? (i.e., they are still made solely in Japan).

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

carseeker4

juice.... you mentioned that Subaru is American-owned (I'm curious because I live not too far from SOA HQ). As far as the design/engineering and manufacturing decisions...are they made here or in Japan?

dindak....your testimony runs pretty much contrary to every consumer rating I ever read or 95% of the word-of-mouth recommendations I ever heard! I was talking to my brother's mechanic two weeks ago and we were discussing what his new car should be. He recommended Nissan, Toyota and Honda, said Hyundai had made "great improvements and has no problems to speak of since 2000" and put the American cars at the bottom of the list, especially Ford. That's just the latest of consistent car recommendations I've heard over the past 5 years.

scape....you can tout whatever view (not necessarily VUE!) you like, but please don't put words in my mouth! I have no regrets about the Santa Fe....none... yeah, I mentioned a couple of negatives like leg room, but its still tolerable. I'm just being objective about the vehicle. I complained about leg room in a Lumina I owned for six years, so I guess I'll always complain about leg room. My only "regret" about the Santa Fe was that I could not get the Merlot color! (I got stuck with feminine Pine Green instead...just couldn't find enough of these cars, so I opted for features ahead of color).

scape2

But, anyone whom has had economics 101 knows, you send your wealth overseas, you don't see it come back.. Beat the drum of globalization.. until of course you lose your job or your friend loses their job to "downsizing". We are so short sighted here in America sometimes, all out just for ourselves, until you lose your job of course.
Carseeker, you sent your hard earned money overseas and put a foreign worker to work. You put an Amercan, actually many North Americans out of work. How are you going to make that payment when you lose your job to Yong Lu? I live in a part of the country where unemployment is over 8 percent. 800 jobs lost at Epson to Indonesia,
1200 at HP to Malyasia.. 30,000 over the years at Boeing to China, Japan, Mexico... 500 at my employer to Indonesia..

scape2

Buy North American, buy built here in the U.S., Canada or Mexico. Honda builds here, Toyota builds here and thier quality is just fine with American workers.

scape2

You are constantly justifying your purchase of a Hyundia product, why? The looks of the Santa Fe are its down fall with the majority of buyers. Granted, you like the looks, but when you go to resell it.. good luck..

maynardf1

Nothing like a little jingoism to get the U.S. economy back on track, huh Scape?
I'm wondering if you really live your philosophy though. Do you hunt through clothing tags to make sure your closet only has U.S.-made clothes? Are you willing to pay more to ensure that?
Do you limit your diet to produce that is grown in the u.s. (picked, btw, mostly by non-Americans, so maybe you should boycott that too.)
Do any of your favorite sports teams have foreign players? How can you continue supporting them? Do you know how much money Ichiro must be just siphoning out of the U.S., directly to Japan! Scandalous!
How about that computer you're sitting in front of? Lots of foreign-made parts in there. Maybe you should stick with a thoroughly American-made typewriter.

paisan

I'm not against american built, but for some reason US run plants (like the big 3) can't reliably put out the same product w/o having flaws such as handles that fall off, paint that rubs off knobs, etc. etc.

Maybe it's the management style in big 3 plants? The UAW? Who knows, but the execution of the big 3 is horrid IMHO.

SOA is owned 20% by GM so it is American Owned.

SIA (Subaru Isuzu America) puts out fine vehicles from their Indiana plant as does Honda, and other Japanese manfucaturers with NA plants.

-mike

carseeker4

paisan..you bring up good points. I am wondering if the Honda and Toyota plants are unionized, or how heavily they are unionized. The parts and build quality of the big 3 are definitely lower. Unions? Management? Probably some of both, but what proportion? I lean more toward blaming the unions - I see them where I work...not good. I started my Grand Am this morning (yeah, my wife is driving the SF this week, we switch off every so often!) and I heard lifter noise when it first started (for about 3 seconds). Only 34000 miles, temp was 61 degrees. I'm wondering what this car will sound like in the winter.

scape... My company isn't doing well either. I work in computers, so I know the pain the IT industry is suffering. That has nothing to do with "buying American"! I will function on the principle of buying quality at the best price. Nationalism/jingoism is a short term fix, long term detriment (ask the Germans and Japanese)! You sound like Pat Buchanan! I said it before, I care about America, but there are flaws in this nation that can't be fixed with short term "nationalistic enthusiasm". I believe America is in a slow moral decline, which I hoped might have been stopped. The jury is still out on that. My ancestors came here in the great immigrations at the turn of the 20th century. We built great products thru the '60's and were the envy of the world. The Japanese (and now the Koreans) imitated and improved on us and we failed to learn the lesson. What happened?

dindak

Check out JD Power web site. Most GM brands consistently score higher customer satisfaction ratings than Honda/Toyota and GM is now third after H/T in terms of initial quality. Consumer Reports like all magazines has flaws so don't believe everything you read. It's best to read a solid cross section of reports from several magazines/publications. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but my "domestic brand" experiences have been fantastic.

As for unions, Honda and Toyota have kept them out so far. I am not really anti-union, but I know for a fact that the big three have less flexibility than the foreign plants in terms of production.

p0926

Clarification on Subaru- GM owns a 20% interest in FHI (Fuji Heavy Industries), Subaru's parent company. Some Subaru models are built at the SIA (Subaru Isuzu America) plant in Indiana but the Forester is produced in Japan and shipped to Washington State.

Regarding unions and the UAW- Foreign auto manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes et al.) go to extreme measures to insure that the UAW doesn't get a foothold in their US plants and to my knowledge, they have thus far been successful in preventing unionization.

-Frank P.

mmspeal

What you have to keep in mind, is that unions are a business in themselves. If companies spend the money to take care of their people in the first place, their isn't a need for a union.
Once a union gets in, it costs big bucks to deal with the union and then they (the company) end up spending the money on their people too.
I think it is great that Honda and Toyota have managed to keep them out - my hat goes off to them for obviously being fair employers and keeping their people happy without the need to spend unneccessary money on a middle-man.

ateixeira

I think GM's ownership has crept up to 22%, something like that. And SIA is actually Subaru-Isuzu Automotive. GM owns a much bigger share of Isuzu, so that plant is very much under GM's control.

The Forester is made in Gunma, Japan, though, along with Imprezas and Outback Sports. The only plant in america is the one in Lafayette, Indiana, where Legacys, Outbacks, and now Bajas are made.

We own vehicle from each plant, and both are high quality, reliable cars.

Where are they designed? Both places. For the new Outback, for instance, the wagon was designed in the US, but the sedan was styled in Japan. They combined the two. I have an article with sketches from a publication by FHI.

SoA has a lot of input because the US is the biggest market. I wish they had more input, so we'd get more of the special models that are still Japan-only, like the Blitzen, STi, and Forester turbo.

Here's another point - Ford is a publicly held company. So if I own Ford stock, that makes it partially Brazilian owned. So ownership depends on the nationality of the stock holders, not Henry's Ford birth place. Jeep was founded here, but I don't consider them american any more, because DCX owns the majority of their stock.

Ford is globalized whether you like it or not.

FWIW, that JD Powers study covers a whopping 90 days, when repairs are under warranty anyway. Whoop-de-doo. Show me a vehicle that won't break after the B2B warranty. JD Power's durability study is far, far more significant.

-juice

carseeker4

thanks for the comments very enlightening. I've been struggling to find out where the issue is with the "big 3" and quality. What does scare me though, as I read juice's comment GM's increasing share of Subaru (just as with Chrysler getting its toes into Hyundai and Ford into Mazda) is that, will overall quality suffer if the US-based automakers bring in their flawed philosophies with them? In my Santa Fe I see elements of Chrysler design.. such as the right-and-leftmost air vents being in the DOOR instead of in the dash (I've seen this in other Chryslers). I'm neutral on that one, but it shows some influence. Santa Fes were designed in California. Now we have GM and Toyota with the Vibe/Matrix. I'm curious to see where they are assembled and which one will prove more reliable. Is it possible that the US automakers are "bailing out of their own companies" and increasing stakes in the foreign automakers in order to lower labor expenses and rethink their manufacturing processes? (Oooh... that's would be interesting!)
As far as the JD Powers survey goes, I side with juice....those initial quality studies might not be worth the paper (uh, or screen) they're printed (or displayed) on..... Durability is the question. My Lumina seemed fine for 5 years, then hit me for $800 bucks on two incidents the last year I owned it (sold it at 70K miles). And this was one of the "better" US cars I bought. It also seemed to be suffering body integrity problems (the gap between the front and rear doors on the drivers' side seemed to be widening over the years!).

paisan

Even though GM Owns a significant stake in FHI and Isuzu, GM doesn't have a hand in the operations of SIA.

-mike

np1908

Agree Duarbility is one of the important things. But, do not dismiss Initial Quality. Remember -- A Race well begun, is half won.
I feel, Initial Quality is an Integral function of Durability. You cannot get durable vehicles if the Initial Quality is flawed.

paisan

Remember a lot of those quality surveys don't show true results. For instance, lets say your family is a big GM family owned em since the 70s. From your POV the current fleet is VERY VERY good initial quality compared to some of your previously owned vehicles. This would have you put down "excellent" initial quality when compared to a late 70s or 80s vehicle! Be very wary of surveys and how they are conducted. Also lower expectations can lead to higher ratings than should be noted.

-mike

dindak

GM now owns 100% of Saab and it's quality is higher than it's ever been. In fact I believe either the 9-3 or 9-5 has the best initial quality in it's class. Subaru will not likely meld with GM anyway as GM mainly bought that stake to get some technology. Suzuki has had GM as a large shareholder for years but still runs independently.

As for unions, my brother drives transport for Honda in Alliston and he said Honda is fighting the union tooth and nail according to the people he talks to. It would be nice if auto makers played on an even footing but I guess that won't be the case for some time.

I think people should just buy what they want. I generally look for the best value in a vehicle factoring in price, financing offer/ rebates, features, safety, style and quality. Last three cars, GM has won out (even before I added in my GM Visa rebates).

ateixeira

Sure you can, and I'll give you an example. Early 2001 Outbacks had squeeky brakes. SoA came out with a shim kit and provided it to dealers, and they made a running change to cars on the production line. Problem solved. We used to see complaints, now they've all but vanished.

Yeah, HCD studios are in Cali. Remember all the cool HCD concepts, including that 2 seat roadster that was supposed to come with 150hp for under $15 grand? Too bad it never happened - we only got the Tiburon hard top.

I don't think an american influence has to be bad. Subaru is using their parts purchasing network, i.e. buy in volume and get better prices. The parts aren't necessarily any different than before, they just pay less for them.

Subaru has remained fiercely independent, areas where Isuzu (Ascendor) and Suzuki (Hombre, Tracker) failed. You may recall a Legacy ad that showed the poor results of the Grand Am, a GM product, and compared it to the great results of the Legacy (IIHS offset).

Vibe and Matrix are built in Cali also, I think, at the NUMMI plant. Both should be reliable, since they're using existing Celica engines. Toyota even sells a version of the Pontiac Vibe in Japan, rebadged of course.

-juice

carseeker4

np1908.... Its good to start well, better to finish well. In sports, the one who finishes well, wins the game (provided they don't start to slowly, of course!).
dindak... regarding your "it would be nice if automakers played on an even footing..." are suggesting Honda give into the Unions? Or are you suggesting the big 3 do more to resist their influence? For my input.... GO HONDA!!! Like I said, I've seen Union influence all too much where I live and work...and the outcome is generally NOT good for quality, timeliness and competitiveness. I agree there's plenty of management abuses, they need to be addressed at the legal/governmental level, as do workers complaints. I understand there needs to be work rules for saftey, but I can't carry my own box to a new desk without getting a union grievance that I am putting someone out of a job? Gimme a break!

dindak

I'm not suggesting anything. All I'm saying is that it would be a more level playing field if they were all unionized or none were. I have no solution as I wouldn't want to see them all unionized and I don't think the unions will ever go away either. I suspect some of the foreign owned plants will eventually have unions and I suspect that the unions will be forced to be more flexible in the future, those are my predictions.

Lets get back to SUVs, this discussion is WAY off topic.

scape2

I am part of this topic getting way off base..
back to SUV's..
The "mini" SUV segment is the fastest growing segment now. I would be curious to see how many people have traded in their larger SUV's for more practical/economical ones..

mtngal

not many people are giving up large SUVs for smaller ones. I see about the same number of large SUVs, more mini SUVs and maybe fewer cars. I say that because it seems to me that each year there are more and more vehicles in general on my commute - one area I have to go through is being built up incredibly fast.

paisan

Also wanted to add that the Troopers and Rodeos use Delphi electronics which is GM's subsidiary electronics company and to no ill effects. Also my '97 Rodeo had a Harrison/GM radiator w/o issue. And the 4l30 transmissions in BMWs, and Isuzus is built by GM as well.

-mike

dindak

I don't think there is a lot of down sizing. People who want and can afford the gas in large SUVs tend to keep them. My old boss went from a Explorer to a Durango to an Envoy now. He just gets what ever is new and hot for his 2 year leases. I wish more people (including my old boss) would down size as many use these vehicles to commute 30 miles to work and don't really need the space which is a real waste in my opinion.

carseeker4

...exactly. I drove a Trailblazer and a Durango. Way too big for what we needed. Didn't like the gas mileage either. Now, if you're old boss uses that as his family car, then I can see. But, if he has an Envoy and a minivan, that's too much. We generally get one "mid-sized" car and one smaller one. One for road trips and capacity (preferably a V6, which is why I preferred the Santa Fe, Trib, Escape or VUE to the Forester or CRV) and another smaller 4-cylinder model for commuting. People have become wasteful in their use of these monster vehicles that they don't really need. When I was a kid (one of 4 in my family), we'd go to the shore for a week in a regular mid-size car (I know, I walked back and forth to school in the snow.... uphill.... both ways...). How did we ever manage?! It could be an image (look at those Chevy truck commercials with the "super-sized" men and trucks!) thing for men - then of course, I've seen 4'9" women driving Trailblazers too!

baggs32

A good friend of mine liked our Escape so much that he was going to trade his Explorer in for one. With the 0.0% financing right now, he ended up buying a new Explorer XLT instead. The kicker is, his monthly payments are less than ours.

mtngal

I looked at them when they first came out and thought they were wonderful - it would do everything my pickup truck could do and had all kinds of gadgets to keep me occupied for a long time. My 5' frame loved the adjustable passenger seat. I thought it would be a very practical vehicle for us until I looked at the price tag and the gas mileage...

p0926

I was listening to Car Talk a while back and they were trying to convince a mother of one, who was in the market for a new car, that a mini-SUV was the best choice. Unfortunately, she currently had an Explorer and didn't think that a mini-SUV would be larger enough to hold all her kid's "stuff" on out-of-town trips. Are we spoiled as a society or what? I agree with Carseeker4, we somehow managed okay before the invention of minivans and SUVs. Just because we can now buy vehicles capable of carrying everything (including the kitchen sink), doesn't mean we have to!

-Frank P.

dindak

My former boss actually has 2 SUVs. His wife drives an Expedition. At least she only drives 4 miles to work. They probably burn twice the gas our family does. Unreal.

baggs32 : Friends of our priced out a fully loaded Escape and the lease payments were the same as an Explorer. They ended up with a Windstar (as they could not justify the insurance and gas), but I thought it was interesting.

ateixeira

It's true, lots of luxury brands use GM trannies. Think about it - they have a lot more experience with automatics, since most imports had manual trannies for a long time.

Honda has had significant troubles with the tranny in the Odyssey, maybe they should let GM supply it.

The Luxury SUV class is growing even faster, I think. People are buying Navigators, Escalades, and X5s at a rapid pace. The X5's 14 recalls haven't hurt sales one bit!

Home Depot rents out those pickups if you really need the space.

-juice

carseeker4

Some astounding facts there! This is a recession and the luxury SUV class is growing faster! 5' women buying SUVs I'd feel small in at 6'! (I understand it might be a safety consideration, mtngal!). Someone having smaller payments on an Explorer than an Escape. Its a mad mad mad mad world. With all the turmoil in the Middle East its a wonder mobs aren't rushing for the Echo/Prius/Insight! Or are we going to depend on the Russians for all that gas?! So what is the SUV phenomenon going on here? Considering recessions, turmoil in oil-producing regions.... it seems unusual. It seems that we (not us, I mean people in general) might want to buy cheaper, more fuel-efficient cars? I know why I bought my mini-SUV.... what about everyone else?
.. mtngal... why the Trailblazer and not the Tracker? Uh.. never mind.. why the Trailblazer and not the Liberty/VUE/Escape/Santa Fe/Tribute?

ateixeira

I've always had a rather idealistic rule: 20 mpg EPA city minimum for me and my family. I have kept it so far, too.

I spend about half as much time as the gas station.

-juice

mtngal

I'm not going to buy a Trailblazer - but I was impressed with it. I will probably buy one of these (or one of the other Subarus) if we stay with 2 vehicles. We go back and forth - I'm interested in looking at the Escape hybrid when it comes out. If we decide on an auto it would be the Liberty, if not, probably one of the Subarus. That's why I keep reading this board.

On the other hand, if it looks like we have to go to one car then we will get a Wrangler. I'm not willing to trade the Wrangler for a Liberty and I'm not ready to give up off-roading.

clever1

Two of the factors that influenced me toward an SUV are driving visibility and small car vulnerability. During my daily commute through the worst of San Francisco traffic in my former Civic, all of the aggressive or unalert drivers in larger vehicles made me feel like it was a matter of when, not if, I'd be squished on the roadway. Driving a bigger car for the sheer layer of armor among "might is right" vans, trucks and SUVS is not a bad idea, even when it doesn't qualify as the most practical.

scape2

As I have stated, I live in a state where unemployment is over 8 percent! We are supposed to be in this huge "recession". Could have fooled me! Stores are packed, resturants packed, movie theaters packed... Someone please tell these people we are in a recession....

tidester

Just for you: We are in a recession!

Seriously, movie theaters tend to fare reasonably well in "hard times" and low end consumer mercantiles (K-Mart, etc.) do okay compared with the high end department stores.

Also, 8% unemployment is pretty serious and I wouldn't be too hasty in dismissing the misery index for those folks and the impact on your local economy.

Do you have any idea what impact it is having on the sale of big ticket item particularly SUVs?

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

carseeker4

Ultimately, my two friends Floyd and Allison talked me into it! (They were two tropical storms that dropped 10" of rain on us and caused widespread flooding and a number of deaths in our area). And, we have enough snow here that I wanted to be able to get to work in pretty much any weather. I'm in my 40's (y'all heard of "age discrimination, right?) and I want to be able to be at work when all them thar' younger people (who only live 5 minutes away from work!) are there. Gotta be dependable when you get my age or they'll put you out to pasture! I figure the Santa Fe will give me a better chance of getting through the snow and occasional high water we have around here. I will probably continue the practice of buying the SUV type vehicles until I'm close to 60... so I figure, maybe one more of the Santa Fe type vehicle, then I can settle back into a CRV or Forester (they'll all still be around when I am 60, right?). Maybe I should write the SF off as a business expense - you didn't hear that, IRS! (all in fun, of course)

mmspeal

clever1 - I hear ya on the highway thing in a small car. I am on the QEW in and around Toronto on a daily basis and between semi's and aggressive drivers, being in my little convertible was scaring me. I could just picture one of those big wheels I had to stare at when stopped in traffic, running right over the hood of my car. That was a big part of why I went to an SUV.

carseeker4 - there is no age barrier on SUV's. My grandmother is 82 years old and just bought her 2nd Blazer. She lives in the Detroit area and drives to Toronto, Texas and Florida quite often - says she'd never be in a car on those highways again. Yes, at 82 she is quite the lady - I only pray I have her spunk at 62.

ateixeira

There's a lot you can do to compensate if you drive a little roadster. I have upgraded the horn and my lights, plus my Miata is white (for high visibility). Drive defensively and with good situational awareness and you can avoid that.

There is passive safety (if you think you're a sitting duck), and active safety, i.e. accident avoidance. Having both are ideal, but I tend to focus on the latter.

-juice

dindak

One of the big advantages of even small SUV's is the "VUE".

;-)

scape2

The new 2003 Escapes/Tribs have all new interior. They have higher quality materials/cloths, silver accents around knobs, radio, ect.. Glad to see this. I own a 2001 Escape, the interior was "ok" for a mini-ute, and in my opinion on par with the CRV and RAV4. When test driving, I had to admit the Liberty had the most tasteful, best quality interior in this segment in my opinion of course. But, now the Escape/Trib have a much, much nicer interior..

p0926

Scape2- FYI the 2003 Forester has also received kudos for its interior.

-Frank P.

dindak

That is good news. My wife didn't like the interior of either the Tribute or the Escape. We will definitely take another look at the Escape when we shop.

p0926

Clever1- The problem with that logic is that it leads to a veritable "arms race" with consumers buying bigger and bigger vehicles in order to feel safe. For example; you buy and Escape, your neighbor buys an Explorer, the guy down the street buys an Expedition, next thing you know you're wanting to trade your Escape in on an Excursion! And guess what, you're still going to lose out in a confrontation with a 50,000 lb semi. My guess is that a 80s era Volvo is statistically as safe or safer than most of the SUVs sold today.

-Frank P.

baggs32

"There is passive safety (if you think you're a sitting duck), and active safety, i.e. accident avoidance. Having both are ideal, but I tend to focus on the latter."

I'm with you there juice. I'd also like to add that crash tests should not be completely ignored, but they are really only testing a few of many different crash scenarios. If all crashes were alike, those tests would be perfect.

Extra braking, better handling, ABS, electronic stability control, etc. are all things that are worth every penny.

diploid

It's funny that after reading this, I come here to read about buying SUVs to feel safe.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5228

"The study, released this week, finds that SUVs are among the most dangerous vehicles on the road for all drivers when injuries and fatalities of other vehicles are included in crash statistics. The study also suggests what many infer from friends and neighbors: that most drivers consider large SUVs to be safer than smaller cars."

stever

Ah, the QEW gets mentioned again. What is that up to now - 12 lanes? If I had to drive that daily, I'd get my own semi....

You have my sympathies, Mmspeal :-)

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

ateixeira

I don't like this trend towards fake silver/aluminum. It's all just painted plastic.

I think Jeep is the only one here to go a good job - theirs is textured and truly looks like the real stuff. Of course it's only on the pricey Limiteds.

I wonder if the paint on the others will scratch off, even. I'd prefer plain old black trim.

Forester did get nice materials, including a padded, dimpled black trim that looks like the stuff Land Rover or Acura would use. But it still didn't escape the painted silver trend.

-juice

carseeker4

... fake aluminum/silver trim better than that plastic wood grain stuff. My wife likes the wood grain, but I could never see the point! I'm glad the SF doesn't have the wood grain stuff but rather contrasting colors and no metallics on the dash. It looks sharp without being glitzy or hokey. Our old Lumina had a fake wood grain strip right above the glove box. Oddest looking thing you ever saw!