Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

baggs32

mtngal,
One thing that I think can refute it is the fact that they replaced the tires with another brand and they aren't failing with the same pressure recommendation. Whether or not the new tires are better suited for the vehicle I do not know.

Car and Driver conducted a really neat test (I can't remember the issue) last year when all this Firestone stuff was going on. They rigged the rear driver's side tire to blow with some kind of remote operated compressor/decompressor. They then continued to drive the Explorer at different speeds, I think 40/50/60/70 were the intervals, and blew the tire out when they reached the desired mark to see if the vehicle would roll over and/or go out of control (safety roll wheels/bars were attached to the truck just in case). Interestingly enough, as long as they kept the vehicle straight and did not slam the brakes on, it just drifted to a controlled stop. Whomever was doing the driving even took both hands off the wheel at one point to prove that he wasn't fighting to keep the vehicle on line.

This test should have been broadcast on all the national networks to show how to control a tire blow out at high speeds. It might have saved some lives then, now, and in the future. I gained a whole new outlook on how much driver error can play a role in a roll over from that article.

On the other hand, the tires should not have failed as frequently in the first place given that the owners checked and maintained the proper pressure on a regular basis. An SUV shouldn't be driven 75-90 mph down the highway either.

p0926

Baggs32- The recommended tire pressure depends on the make and model of tire used. For instance, an identical size tire from two different manufacturers could have recommended tire pressure settings that are 10 PSI apart. Therefore, you've not really refuted anything.

From what I've read, in both Firestone's and Ford's defense, contributing factors in most (all?) of the rollovers were a combination of some or all of the following:

a. Driver error
b. Excessive speeding in hot weather
c. Exceeding the vehicles max load capacity
d. Significantly under inflated tires

-Frank P.

paisan

I agree with you. I place the blame on Ford for the excessively low tire pressures recommended on the explorers, not to mention with a blowout a vehicle should not roll.

As for 75-90mph driving an SUV, why not? I have driven all my SUVs for the past 10 years @ 77-87mph on the highway and never lost control. But I pay attention and leave plenty of space for controlled stops in the event of an emergency.

As for manufacturer's responsibility. All vehicles sold in the US come with a speed limiter, that limits the speed to less than the max speed rating on the tires. For instance if your car comes with 115mph speed rated tires, you'll have a limiter @ 112 usually.

-mike

ateixeira

paisan: I suppose if you get all the rebates and have the Ford credit card, you could get a disposable beater pickup for next to nothing.

But people are into creature comforts nowadays. I wonder how many stripped models they even make.

C&D didn't rig the tires to blow up, they rigged them to deflate only. That's not the same - a blown tire, or one that loses its tread, can have the tire/tread tangle up in the axle and make it stop turning suddenly. That is like night and day different.

But yes, for the driver not to overreact is important if you just have a flat.

-juice

paisan

a creature comfort vehicle would not last long doing yard work. If you use it that infrequently you can afford to rent a truck from home depot or rental company for your "gardening" duties. Basically if you don't use it often, it's a waste, and if you use it often, it won't last. That's just my take.

-mike

scape2

Other SUV's did have tire problems, the 4-runner, trailblazer, passport, ect... It just seems the mass media decided to pick on Ford the most because the sold the most SUV's and had the best seller...
In the Oregonian paper about 6 months ago in a small section Toyota decided to settle out of court with a 4-runner owner because of a tire blow-out/rollover... I wish now I would have kept the article..

paisan

Ford had far more problems than the others. Even proportionally to their higher sales it was higher.

-mike

ateixeira

I think you're talking about medium to even heavy duty use. The light duty I'm talking about is maybe hauling some mulch home, or top soil, but in bags.

Stuff that I do with my Forester already, but would be a little easier if I could hose it out.

-juice

baggs32

"But I pay attention and leave plenty of space for controlled stops in the event of an emergency."

We all like to think that we are perfect drivers don't we? Around here the highways are far from being straight and level. Let's face it, these aren't sports cars. Do yourself, and the other people on the road, a favor and take it easy.

"The recommended tire pressure depends on the make and model of tire used."

It does if you bother to look it up. How many times have you bought four new tires and not used the same manufacturer recommended tire pressure? Nothing in the manual tells you to use a different pressure for different brands. People are taught to follow what the manual or little sticker says when/if they check the pressure. Then there are those like my mother-in-law who goes by the numbers on the tire. I think I've finally fixed her though.

ateixeira

I think the numbers on the sidewall are the max inflation pressure for a certain load, aren't they?

Look in the door jamb or owner's manual instead.

-juice

suvshopper4

"It just seems the mass media decided to pick on Ford the most because the sold the most SUV's and had the best seller..."

Wake up, America!

p0926

Juice- The numbers listed on the door jamb and owner's manual assume that you have OE tires. You're on your own if you replace them with another make or model. As an example, I replaced the tire on the wife's Accord with a different brand of the same size. The OE tire had a max PSI of 40. The replacement tires have a max PSI of 34. Honda recommends 32 PSI which makes sense for the OE tires but that's almost the max pressure of the replacement tires.

-Frank P.

paisan

I travel at a rate I feel comfortable with. I'm not talking about blasting and weaving through traffic like some jackass, but there is no reason why on the interstate I or anyone else who is competant can't cruise at the speedlimit +/- 10mph. I've seen some dangerous drivers driving well below the limit in geo metros.

-mike

paisan

Always error on the side of more pressure. I run mine at 5psi above stock.

-mike

capriracer

What is happening here is a confusion about the recommended inflation pressure and the maximum inflation pressure.

There is a standardizing organization in the US called the Tire and Rim Association (TRA). In Europe it is ETRTO (European Tire and Rim Technical Organization). These standardizing bodies set the load / inflation tables as well as sizing standards. A tire manufacturer does not have to adhere to this, but I do not know of anyone who doesn't, including the federal government. (There is safety in numbers!!) These load tables are published in a yearbook that is an inch thick, which is why you do not see these tables published on the web.

For a given size, there is only one relationship between inflation pressure and load carrying capacity. And there is a maximum inflation pressure.

HOWEVER --- There have been some recent exceptions granted for the maximum inflation pressure for P metric tires. The increase is from 35 to 44, but no increase in load.

So the load table is still applicable, but what is printed on the sidewall of the tire may vary depending on when the tire was manufactured and when the molds were restamped (and some haven't been restamped yet!!)

Bottom line - It makes no difference who manufactures the tire, whether it is an OE tire or not - the inflation pressure on the vehicle placard is applicable.

I like to use 3 to 5 psi above the placard. I get better fuel economy, better tire wear, better wet traction, better snow traction, better steering response, better tire durability, and only give up a bit of ride harshness.

"They" say you should check your tire pressures once a month. Don't trust the guys at the shop to do it. These guys are paid by the hour and this is one of the easiest things to shortcut. Besides, there are a lot of mechanics you don't know where to look for the proper inflation. No, it is not on the sidewall.

Hope this helps.

scape2

to a guy in a Santa Fe today. It was that choclate,rusty brown color. He had it all decked out with tires/wheels, running boards, tint, you name it. He tried like a mad man to beat me off the line in my Escape 3x! I know these aren't race cars.. but admit if folks.. this happens..

carseeker4

Hey scape...we'll see if he pulls over and helps you out when you stall the next time you try that! Or, just avoid drag racing downhill!

baggs32

I seem to recall a recall for the Santa Fe stalling problem a little while back too. Hyundai is no model of excellence either. Didn't we go over this before carseeker?

At least the Escape could tow your Santa Fe to the nearest service station if you needed help. Doesn't work the other way.

Couldn't have said it better myself capriracer. That was very informative. I usually go 2-3 psi above the manufacturer recommended pressure myself. As you drive the tire heats up and the pressure inside increases to 5+ psi above. To each his own I guess.

mad0865

Why drag race in an SUV? I don't think they were designed for that. My .02 cents.

paisan

Not to mention seeing an SUV dragging is kinda funny. Quite Entertaining!

-mike

mtngal

I was beside/behind an Explorer a couple of years ago when its right rear tire came apart. He didn't roll it, but it was a close thing.

I definitely try to drive whatever vehicle I'm in to it's safe characteristics, and I err on the side of caution. I drive my SUV slower than many other vehicles, because it doesn't handle that well, and I know it (also, sudden unexpected lane changes in high winds are not fun at all). Speed doesn't attract me much any more (been there, done that) - I'd rather be safe...

jaserb

Let us all know the next time a Neon or a Camry "lays waste" to your Escape! LOL! Or if you really want to see something "lay waste" to an Escape, go check out its offset crash test!

-Jason

jaserb

Saw a Jeep hauling tail last night. I was doing ~75 when I heard him coming and he passed me like like I was standing still. From the whining of the gears I'm sure he was darn near maxed out on speed, I'd guess he was doing near triple digits. This was a lifted CJ set up for Moab with at least 35" tires. Lord help him if he has to swerve to miss anything.

-Jason

carseeker4

... my bet is that that Santa Fe was a AWD model, unlike the "switch in" "AWD" you get in the Escape. Anyway, who cares, anyone who reads the stats KNOWS that the Escape has a higher HP rating than the SF. So, what? That's not what you buy it for!
baggs.... you're sounding more like scape all the time! The FACT is that the problem RATES on the Tribscape are higher than the Santa Fe. That's why CR gave the Escape/Trib the dreaded full black circle, while the SF had "just below average". I'd bet with the few problems with the 2001 SFs in the past and having been fixed, it might get an average reliability rating from CR next year. Even if it doesn't, it certainly can't get any worse than the FULL BLACK CIRCLE.

baggs32

carseeker,
CR's rating was based on the 2001 model and included it's recalls. From what I've heard, the 2002 is in their new issue and it has improved in almost category according to them. I have not seen the new data myself though. I'm guessing that while the Escape's circles are moving to red, the Santa Fe's will be going to black. Just give it some time.

tincup47

I saw the black circle rating, but the funny thing was that in all the detail ratings by components the Escape was all Red circle or half circle. It was only in the overall it gave a black. It didn't make sense to me how it was arrived at, if none of the detail listings supported it. But I've owned several vehicles that CR panned, and have had few problems and very enjoyable ownership experiences with all of them.

jaserb

Okay, listing a few of the MAJOR lemons from the last few years:

Dodge Neon head gasket (95-97 especially)
Ford 3.8 V6 head gasket (Windstar, Taurus)
Mid-90s Ford Taurus trannies
Chrysler 4-spd auto tranny (just about all of them, but especially minivans)
Toyota engine sludge debate (if you're a sludge believer)
Early 80's GM TH200 trannies

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just about all of these problems tended to manifest themselves at 50k miles +. IIRC, the Ford head gaskets would blow at about 60k like clockwork, and the Neons were similar. The problem trannys often lasted until 75k+ (on Caravans, which I'm familiar with) before disintegrating. So until large numbers of these vehicles start putting up 6 figure mileage readings, nobody will really know how reliable they are. Oh, and CR's ratings are a bunch of crap. Take a look at some past issues and marvel at some of their "recommended" picks!

It sure is nice to have a 100k mile warranty just in case ;-)

-Jason (2001 SF LX, 24k problem free miles)

mtngal

That Wrangler is an accident waiting to happen at that speed. I don't think a stock Wrangler is particularly safe over 70, and wouldn't drive one over around 60 if it were windy. Besides, I couldn't afford the gas - that 4.0L gets very thirsty over 65-70, like it will go from 20 mpg to about 12 mpg very quickly. But no one said that all drivers were either good or smart...

baggs32

"Oh, and CR's ratings are a bunch of crap. Take a look at some past issues and marvel at some of their "recommended" picks!"

I couldn't agree with you more.

They also base their ratings on consumer responses to a survey that they send out to owners. Each vehicle needs 100 responses in order to wear a reliability rating. If one only gets 100 responses and another gets 10,000, the two should not be compared. If they showed some kind of error margin or how many responses each vehicle actually received then maybe we could make better decisions based on that.

The last thing I want is some dork in a white lab coat spewing numbers at me and telling me which one he/she likes best. I'll go take a few test drives thank you.

jaserb

I need to have a bumper sticker with that sentence printed up! LOL!

-Jason

carseeker4

....they actually recommend a couple of Fords, so you're right.. you can't totally depend on them! So, try looking at the Consumer Complaints on the NHTSA site! 165 for the 2002 Escape (not counting the Tribute) and 3 (whoah THREE) for the Santa Fe. Lets account for the fact that some of these are overlaps (in fact on the SF, the first 2 are the same complaint listed under different components). So that makes 2 for the SF and maybe 110 for the Escape. Ford doesn't sell 55 times the amount of Escapes that Hyundai sells Santa Fes (in fact, I think the last couple of months, the SF has nearly equaled Escape sales). Bottom line, Ford hasn't fixed the stalling problem, nor does it seem they want to. The initial quality on the SF appears to be a lot better. I agree, you *may* be coming back and laughing in my face in 2 years when (and IF) Hyundai proves to have long term quality problems, but right now, Ford - once a great car company - is in steep decline and is producing junk. Hey... just study the "News and Views" board and the "Bill Ford....its over" topic. I don't rejoice in the decline of the American Auto manufacturers (they are losing market share, remember?), but I won't let them get away with it, and not all of scape's (and any other Ford-philes) will stop me from pointing out the truth to all those "carseekers" who visit this board. That is why I will balance his blind views with the truth!

bess

I've seen fanatics on both sides with blinders on both sides, often spreading mis information..

btw: July 2002 sales:

Escape (not including tribute): 12620

Sante Fe: 7537

(Thats almost equal sales according to you??)

Tribute (not including escape): 4881

The Tribute alone is closer in sales to the Sante Fe, than the Sante fe is to the Escape..

source: http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

Also, you've seen for yourself that the NHTSA site often had duplicate complaints listed. You saw that 1/3 of the Sante Fe's complaints were over counted.. Did you look to really see how many of the Escape complaints were double counted? Or did you do use a similar process (including blinders) to count complaints as you did to determine that the Sante Fe sales were equal to the Escapes..

I just see your balancing one persons extreme views with your own exaggerations and not necessarily the truths..

tidester

... we really need to characterize people and their views or motives with words such as "blind", "crap", "extreme" and so on.

There are better ways of challenging and refuting points. Namely, point out the errors, ask for clarification and present the "real" facts.

tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories

carseeker4

Looking back into my numbers I see that site I was viewing had the Elantra listed right above the SF, so I was in error there. Sorry for those offended by it. Bess' sales figures are correct.
As far as the NHTSA consumer complaints, no I didn't do a direct statistcal analysis.... just a projection. So, even given a higher ratio of duplications in the Escape complaints, I didn't figure in the Tribute which has 74 complaints of its own (so, lets say 50.. whatever! If you want to count...count), the fact is that the ratio of quality problems to units sold is higher in the Tribscape as opposed to the SF, possibly much higher. Second, there is a recall investigation on the stalling by NHTSA (there are no recall investigations on the Santa Fe). For your reference, it is number PE01043. Opened on 12/7/01. The Trib has a similar entry, though I did not bother to get the number. Obviously NHTSA figures there were enough complaints to open an investigation. And from Ford... we have.... silence as far as I know. So while my vision might not be the best (e.g. my mistaking the sales figures of the Elantra for the SF - the Elantra had about 13000 units sold in July), I don't think I have put on the blinders. I'm well aware Hyundai may still have long term quality issues. Who knows? If they do NOT have long term quality issues, word of mouth alone will get them a much larger market share than they have now.... and the American Automakers will be sweating bullets! Am I rooting for Hyundai? I don't know, maybe in the sense that I'd root for the underdog. I'm an American... I don't root for our car companies to fail, but our auto industry and unions, need a wake-up call and fast. I guess that's my agenda!

carseeker4

For those who read about my interior ding on the Santa Fe, I was able to work on that today, since the wife was out shopping with her friend and I couldn't go gofing without risking lightning encounters! Sorry, juice, no pix. Its a dim sort of day and they would not have come out anyway, not to mention the camera is empty right now. Bottom line is that juice is right, the color matching was the worst of it. It took me TWO HOURS to get a close match (its still a "tad" yellow), and its not perfect, but it looks better than the ding. I got the vinyl repair kit made by Permatex which sold at Pep Boys for $6.99. I did have some trouble with the heating part since I had to use a solder gun as the heating device. I'd opt to spend the $9.99 for their kit that has a UL approved heating device. The mixing is lengthly, but the color material stays pliable for quite a while, so you can take your time mixing and matching. Anyway, it looks better and hopefully I'll be smart enough to tie down that propane can next time!

baggs32

carseeker,
I know all about those complaints on the NHTSA web site. I even typed one of them up myself because it was the highly recommended thing to do here in the Town Hall and in other forums.

There are no recall investigations on the Santa Fe because they already issued the recall. There may have been one at one time.

Go read the Tribute/Escape Problems forum. A few people are still experiencing the stall, but they aren't coming back to report repeats any more, myself included. A TSB (one of a few for the problem in recent months)was issued by Ford in June that not only fixed the rpm dip/stall, but it also improved the performance and gas mileage. Everyone who bothered to come back after getting their vehicle fixed has reported the same thing.

This forum can sometimes make it sound like every Escape/Tribute will stall because it is discussed so much. It really isn't like that.

Your just jealous because your City's team isn't the best in Pennsylvania! (You are the one from Philly right?)

orangelebaron

Is it true that you cannot get the 4 cyl Tribute here anymore? That's what the salesman said. What gas mileage are people getting with the 4 cyl? The 6 I hear isn't that great.

Aside from the stalling, the crash test on the Tribute/Escape was lousy too. The CRV holds up better in a crash (IIHS...look at the pictures) but the Tribute has better bumpers as opposed to CRV's plastic decorations. And the Tribute's spare is inside, which I like.
I really like the Tribute for many reasons. It doesn't sound like Ford is moving so fast on this stalling issue though.
Is the hybrid Escape coming out soon? Will there be a Tribute hybrid?

scape2

stalling issue is way over blown..
There is an internet group that is for Ford Escape/Tribute folks. It has over 4,300 visitors/members. LESS than 1 percent of these people had stalling OR any other major problem that would cause them to either trade in their Escape/Trib or use the lemon laws.. I wish I could link you to this poll but I will get a nasty note from either Steve or Tidester.. Edmunds doesn't like it...
carseeker, bess called you on it and you once again misinformed people.. Get out on the net and visit other chat rooms.. Your Santa Fe isn't as trouble free as you think. And yes, I laid waste to a Santa Fe with a driver who was way over confident. the Escape will just plain outrun, out pull, out haul, out drive! your Santa Fe..
Crash tests.. granted, the Santa Fe has a better crash rating.. but.. the Escape is still rated 5 stars except for offset by the NHSTA.. and read the difference between a 4 star and 5 star rating..

carseeker4

baggs... I knew the SF had a 2001 recall. I don't remember the issue. I DO know they had 290 engines fail on their first lot off the assembly line due to bad cylinder liners. They have fixed that issue and I know of no future incidents on that front. I'm sorry if I was too hard on you comparing you with scape....I know you have been very helpful on the Mazda Tribute/Ford Escape problems board..and thank you. As far as sports teams go, it would be nice to have an all PA Super Bowl wouldn't it? one battle you are winning out there.. you are leading us.. 2 stadiums to none!

scape... I misquoted a stat on the sales figures. If I misled anyone there, I am sorry. As far as the reliability, I stand on that and invite anyone to check out the figures. I "owned" a Trib for 48 hours and had 6 posts to the Escape/Tribute problems board in that 48 hours from everything from stalling to poor build quality. I backed out of the deal. As far as our little "battle" goes, I just need to be a voice of opposition to this "pro-American" car stance. Sometimes, just to annoy you, other times because I feel that those who are searching the board may run into your posts and buy an Escape without being fully informed. Yes, the Santa Fe isn't problem free, but the RATIO of problems to units produced is HIGHER in the Tribscape than in the Santa Fe. If you want to keep carrying the torch for Ford, I'll be right behind you trying to blow it out! Of course, the way Ford is going, it may go out on its own!

scape2

Anyone who has had any sort of economics course knows when you buy any foreign product you are shipping this countries wealth overseas, never to be seen again. You are putting an American worker out of work. Yes, I am pro-American. Buy North American is my feeling. You obviously have no clue about South Korean Unions or South Korean tarriffs against anything American, European or Japanese. If even half of American consumers would educate themselves about South Korea and its economic ways.. Hyundia sales would fall ten fold down to nothing. Sorry you feel guilty about your purchase.. maybe next time you will educate yourself first.
Nice move on trying to make bess your allie. Bess in no-way has aligned themselves with my views, in fact Bess has slammed me! in other chat rooms for some of my responses.. Carseeker, your trying to us the old term.. your my enemies enemy is my ally?
Fact is a person in a Hyundia Santa Fe attemped to "race" me light to light.. and I laid waste to the Santa Fe by more than a car length!!

bess

My opinion:
I often think that Scape over exagerates when stating that Ford products are 'far superior' to the other vehicle brands out there..

There are also folks on the other extreme that believe their vehicle is the 'best' and anyone who chooses something different is making a mistake..

Overall, all of the vehicles today are built well and will last well over 100k miles if you change the oil at recommended intervals..

My preference is currently Ford vehicles mostly because of my past history with Ford vehicles has been extremely positive (with 1 exception).. No problems, great reliability and durability,with 5 or so holding up to 150k+ miles, and 2 still going great with over 200k miles.. (I start counting from when I had my first 83 Ford Escort).

My belief is if a brand of product does very well for you, and that company offers products that fit your requirements (utility, features, price), then stick with them.. I do comparision shop, but if everything else comes out even, then I lean towards Ford.. If I start having problems with Ford vehicles or if they don't offer what I want/need, then of course I'll look elsewhere..

To show my open minded-ness, I'll show you examples where I wouldn't recommend a Ford products. If I were looking for a mini-van, I'm not sure I'd buy another Windstar.. I've had 2, a 95 and a 99 (wanted the extra door).. The 99' did disappoint me to the extent that I'd probably look elsewhere (other minivans seem to handle better).
Next, I was a fan of the Ford Escort. However Ford chose to replace this with the Focus which IMHO is just plain ugly.. If I wanted a compact car I'd probably look toward the civic..

Basically, my views don't tend to line up with many others here.

stever

What is an American car?

The Globalization of the Car Industry

Can Americans Build Decent Cars?

After you digest all that, talk about it in the Increasing Globalization....does 'country of origin' matter topic ;-)



Steve

Host

SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

p0926

Steve- Thanks for the timely post with the links to applicable articles. There was a time when I use to worry about being un-American if I didn't buy from the big three. Now I just concentrate on buying the vehicle that best suits my needs.

-Frank P.

dindak

Japanese and US based brands and I have not experienced much difference in terms of reliability or quality so I tend to try and buy American based cars now as they generally offer better value while keeping my friends (who work for Goodyear, GM and Chrysler) happy also. While every car company is foreign in Canada, the big three employ far more people and do much more research than any of the Japanese plants here.

That all said, if the big three were shipping out bad products, I would buy Japanese again.

carseeker4

STEVE....its hard to find the money trail as juice has mentioned to us. Ford owns 30% of Mazda. Now I notice CR giving Volvos the dreaded full black circle (Ford's influence?). Honda is still relatively independent. So is Hyundai, though I fear that Chrysler is trying to weave its way into Hyundai. They know a good thing when they see it.
BESS... Ford has been horrible to our family, the few times we have ventured into Fords. If it takes one US carmaker to go under to wake us up, I would hope its Ford...sorry. If Ford has been good to you, then yes, I'd say keep going. GM had been good to us for years, but we saw quality declines there too, in addition to poor selection.
We have a Pontiac Grand Am in addition to our Santa Fe, and so far, the Santa Fe has been better quality wise. The Pontiac is off warranty now (after about 6 warranty repairs, brakes, fuel leaks, even the seat, for cryin' out loud!), and I'm concerned how much it will milk us for in the next 3 years until the SF is paid off.
SCAPE - we are doing America a disservice by settling for the expensive junk we are producing. Do you remember Jefferson's Embargo Act of 1807? It bankrupted most of New England. Even if the other side doesn't play fair, FREE TRADE will eventually win the day. But if Americans can't produce quality cars, they won't get my support. My support would only continue the decline in quality being tolerated by American automakers. I'm an American, but I believe America, like any nation, has flaws that need to be fixed and our Automaking is one of them.

mmspeal

I'm glad I've already made my decision and purchase - you guys would have certainly confused me with all this back and forth bickering! Haven't seen any recalls yet but even if I do, I have confidence in Saturn to fix any issues with my VUE.

Growing up in a family that is completely employed in the auto industry, I too believe in only buying North American. I tried the Honda CRV as it is built in Aliston Ontario but still wound up with the VUE as I just thought it was better value for the money. (getting a GM employee discount helps)

I didn't even look at the Santa Fe as I didn't like the styling (personal preference) and I just can't get past the fact that every time I hear the name, Hyundai, all I can think of is all those Pony's you used to see off to the side of the road. I am sure they have gotten better but it's hard for a company to get past a bad reputation like they used to have.

jaserb

Scape2, while thumping chest and grunting:
"the Escape will just plain outrun, out pull, out haul, out drive! your Santa Fe..."

Since 95% of mini-utes I see don't even have a trailer hitch (or the factory one is in "never used" condition), the "out pull, out haul" argument seems kind of silly. I wouldn't tow any more with a mini-ute than I would with a decent sized car. Yes, I have towed with my Santa Fe, but nothing more than 1500 lbs or so. If you're looking for a serious tow vehicle you shouldn't be looking at anything in this topic. Get a truck, mid-sized ute, etc.

As for the "outrun, out-drive!" part of your thesis, I'll gladly trade a couple seconds 0-60 for a nice smooth ride and quiet interior to soothe my 8 month old to sleep on this type of car. Just about any mid sized sedan with a V6 and automatic is faster than anything in this comparo.

-Jason

jaserb

Forester: everything you expect from Subaru. Nice ride, great AWD system standard, great crash test scores. 2003 model looks much better. I'd go for the Impreza TS wagon for a few grand less or the WRX wagon (woo-hoo!) for not much more, but if you need the SUV look it's hard to fault the Forester.

Santa Fe: The cushy cruiser of the group. Smooth, quiet, roomy, great warranty. If you like the looks it's hard to beat for the price. After 18 mos. and 24k miles ours is trouble free and as tight as the day we bought it. Best rear hatch design in the business.

Liberty: As you might expect, the mountain goat of the group. My neighbor bought one and uses it to go rock hunting out in the desert - takes it places that would leave any other ute here quaking in its all-season radials. If you're not a rock hopper, be prepared to deal with tippy handling and lousy gas mileage.

Triscape twins: The athletes of the bunch. Plenty of power, decent handling. If you want the sportiest mini-ute, it's a shoot-out between these guys and the Rav4. 2002+ models seem to have fixed most of the initial quality problems.

Vue: Haven't looked at or driven one. Plastic body panels, neato-jet CVT tranny doesn't seem quite ready for prime time. Great Saturn "no-stress" dealership experience.

There's something for everyone here. No need for slams on other people's rides, you get what works for you. Since this forum seems to be cycling back into name-calling and posturing I'll be looking for somewhere else to hang out. If you have any questions about the Santa Fe I'll check in that forum from time to time.

Later, all
-Jason

dindak

CVT / VTi is ready for prime time now at your local Saturn dealer. It's been out for a few months. At least they fixed it before it was released rather than the other way around.

K

ateixeira

You folks will excuse me if I found that debate about which SUV was "less bad" in reliability amusing. Just look at the top of the chart on their Car Issue and what will you find?

The Subaru (american owned!) Forester.

-juice