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Comments
Mtngal... I've taken my '01 escape Back and forth from Harrisburg,PA to Louden,TN (just past Knoxville,TN) and have done alot of driving all through the Smokey Mountains around Pigeon Forge.
As for driving on the highway I just set the cruise at 75 and let her run. I was avg. about 25mpg on the highway trip before I got my Tornado put in...I can't wait to see what I'll get on the trip this time.
I also can now say for the back seat there is plenty of room for a rear facing Child Seat, I got to test the new seat out to make sure I could hook it in with no problems.. it fit like it was made for it. I will be probably going in the next 2 wks to pick up alot of Baby Furniture (crib, dresser's, gliders, etc, etc) So I will have my neighbors flatbed trailer to carry what won't fit in the rear. I will see if I can snap a pic (without wife seeing me) and post it.
Hope you all have a Happy New Year
Odie
1. Autoweek repeatedly stated something to the effect of "We did not deliberately try to roll this vehicle." (why?)
2. Autoweek stated early on in their description of the rollover, (not an exact quote, close as I can recall) "This is the first SUV out of many we've ever tested that rolled."
Much, much, much further down in the article, readers are told that this was the first vehicle they had ever tested at their new location. The location was not a qualified test track, but an old parking lot or something similar, but they left this fact out of the headlines. Further examination by a safety expert found that the track had a rough stretch, followed by a slick area near to where they had rolled on a cone test. A videotape review found that Autoweek basically floored the vehicle, then in order to make the turn around the cone, jammed the brakes so hard that they lifted a rear wheel while sharply turning left.
iirc, the story stated the Liberty rolled over completely several times . After reading the unusual account of how they tested, I felt much better, especially after seeing that the roof did not collapse and the tester walked away with not much more damage than sore ribs.
With subsequent testing at a qualified DC test track, Autoweek drivers could not get a wheel to lift, (much less roll over), until they eliminated all personnel but the test driver. Again, this is from memory, but it shows how the details speak louder than the headlines. I also read a followup from Autoweek, where they tested the lowered Jeep Liberty and were pleased to report that they didn't roll it. I don't recall if they explicity said if the original driver was the follow up tester.
All in all, I wondered if this test doesn't point out the need for standarized test track criteria, and testing procedures -speeds and distances between cones etc. Otherwise, what does the result mean?
Actually, I'd be interested in the same thing for the Santa Fe, though I still think it wouldn't be the best option for me. Don't think the Liberty has been around long enough for someone to put that kind of mileage on one, and I've already asked the question on the Forester board (lots of people with 100,000 miles plus vehicles).
jondavid - Thanks for the additional info on the Liberty. I had heard about the incident when it happened, but had never followed up on it. My opinion is that roll overs are something that can happen with any vehicle. Granted there is more chance of it with an SUV - just look at the old Explorer or Bronco. Each vehicle should be driven within its own characteristics. My husband actually likes it when I drive the Wrangler because he knows that I always drive it much slower than I do the Taco - it wasn't designed for high speeds and it doesn't handle them well at all.
I wondered if this test doesn't point out the need for standarized test track criteria, and testing procedures...
How about taking both the driver and the track out of the testing and using some kind of centrifuge instead?
tidester, host
I have driven in winter conditions for extended times in Austria, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the upper East Coast, Rocky Mountains, and the Sierra. With no exceptions, snow, ice, and various degrees of slush and frozen snow were much more of a concern than clearance. In fact, so far I have only twice encountered a situation that could not be mastered by 4"-5" true vehicle clearance - and both times the road was fine after a couple of hours of waiting. I just spent two weeks in New York, watching 2WD SUVs and minivans getting stuck, getting nowhere, and sliding all over the place where even regular FWD cars (like my rental) had few problems. In other words, given my experience (YMMV), AWD/4WD is much more important/useful than clearance or even snow tires. At least, get a LSD or traction control. I would estimate that 80% of the traction problems I see on the road stem from "one-wheel drive".
Steve:
Weight of the vehicle is highly overrated. I don't know where you get your statistics, but the scientific evaluations I have seen concur that heavier SUVs or pick-ups provide zero benefit to the occupants, while doubling or tripling the risk to the occupants of other vehicles.
- D
If that means they'll standardize all roads too, then I'm all for it! I know I could do without all the potholes and horse shoe curves on steep inclines/declines that we have around here.
Having some differences in test conditions is a good thing. I do agree that things like slalom cone distance and skidpad diameter should be standard though.
Baggs32- IMO standardization of testing would be a good thing. It would allow both the establishment of a baseline and enable apples to apples comparisons. Besides, there will always be the subjective reviews based upon real-world driving experiences.
-Frank P.
My only complaint is the poor gas mileage and my dealer, who was supposed to have the replacement headlight in stock 6 weeks ago (bickering with them gets you nowhere, time to go to BBB?). I've been averaging 20 mpg on the highway which I guess is no surprise given other's reports on here. Then again, it's hard to have a light foot on this truck.
I changed the Firestones (mine is MY2001) to Pirelli Scorpions which improved handling and snow traction by leaps and bounds! Gas mileage may have taken a hit as did road noise.
Unfortunately, the gas mileage is waivering on my intentions to keep the Tribute. I'm either looking to sell/trade the truck this fall or hand it over to my mom who'll sell her MPV. Hopefully I'll be in another Mazda as I've been very happy driving this beaut, my next car will most likely be a Mazda6s.
Apples to apples between publications that is. You can compare vehicles in within the same publication because they use the same test conditions for each one. This is one reason why test numbers differ for the same vehicle between, let's say, MT and C&D. If you wanted to compare the Forester to the Tribute using the same test conditions, all you have to do is flip to the publications test results to do that. If they have them.
There are some exceptions to that rule, like when they get to do some testing on a manufacturer's track or something like that. Sometimes the numbers come from there.
I see where you're coming from, but if they standardized every test you would never know how a specific vehicle performs in varying conditions. The conditions where I live are a far cry from the conditions that someone in Orlando would experience. Therefore I do want to know how the vehicle tested in the Detroit based mag as well as in the L.A. based mag.
You mention that that you see many more minivans and 4x2 SUV's being stuck than even you fwd car..
This actually supports my argument even more.
Mini-vans are much larger than most of the mini-suv's (topic of this discussion board). Thus the reason your fwd car performs better.
A majority of the SUV's out there are the mid-size or larger SUV's which are in 4x2 trim are rwd. So again, I agree you fwd passenger car has an advantage.
Most of the mini-suv's that have 4x2 are fwd, and they perform the same as most passenger cars..
When the bad weather hits, I also see like you a fairly large number of SUV's in trouble. (both 4x4 and 4x2 models). I think some of this stems from a 'sense of security' some folks feel because they own an SUV and in turn they overdrive the conditions.
Is AWD/4wd better in snow than just front wheel drive. Of course.. However as you've experienced, a front wheel drive vehicle can get you through very safely and effectively if you use common sense.
comment on LSD (limited slip diffs). My SuperDuty (4x2) has an LSD. As with any 4x2 pickup truck, snow is not its friend. A few hundred pounds of sand in the back helps but still not as good as most vehicles. The LSD also helps, but one has to be very sensitive to the increased tendency for the rear end to step out because both rear wheels breaking loose.. Still, I agree tis better to have LSD than not..
First, on the way home a minivan started to pass me on the level, then ran out of steam on the uphill part, so he ended up pulling in behind me. I was only doing between 65-70 (windy and driving the Wrangler). This isn't uncommon - so a good reason to get a 2WD SUV is the extra power (and pay the price for the lowered gas mileage).
Saw the Porche Cheyanne - classic good looks and styling, nothing startling, really out of my price range, but fun to look at.
Really liked the new Freelander with the removable top on the back. I wonder how heavy it is and how hard it is to remove (as bad as the Wrangler's hard top?). The seats seem to be better than what I remember when the Freelander first came out.
Escape's interior is much improved! However, I wasn't impressed with the very hard seats. The Mazda's seats were more comfortable.
The Santa Fe has much nicer interior than I remember. It is really quite impressive (though I was surprised that the seat wasn't a power seat - everything else in the model we looked at was power, including the heated seats).
The new VW SUV (starts with a T - I don't remember the name exactly) looked like most other SUVs on the market - there wasn't anything different about it. It will have a V8 option, which might be nice for some. The pricing wasn't listed yet. I suspect it will be more than the vehicle is really worth.
I sat in a Sorento and was very disappointed in the seats - not particularly comfortable at all.
Toyota had the Element there and my first reaction was yuck. Later I saw a concept vehicle that Nissan has called the Cube and thought it was really cute. They are both boxes on wheels so I think I might look at the Element again, when it really comes out.
The 2003 Tacoma seats ARE far more comfortable than the 2000. If my Taco was as comfortable as the new ones are I might not be so interested in dumping it!
I was very surprised by my husband's reaction to the Liberty Renegade. He really liked it! I still really like the interior of the Liberty.
They have changed the material in the Sahara Wrangler. It's much nicer looking now, so much so that I might look at one when it comes time to trade in my Sport.
The seats in the H2 are so different than the Hummer. They were comfortable while the Hummer seats sure reminded me of my Army days and the true Army jeeps (minimal padding). And this is a vehicle that goes for $115,000?
And finally, Chevy still makes a comfortable big truck. The replacement for the S-10 was not there, which disappointed me.
Did you see the other box/cube, the Scion?
Our coverage is here.
Steve, Host
I briefly looked at the Scions. They were in a separate spot with too many people for the space, and what I saw was that they were too extreme for my taste (and I was in a hurry to try out the Tacoma seats). My reaction was that they weren't SUV enough (or truck-like enough) to catch my interest (I know, and this from a person who has the Outback and the WRX wagon on their short list). I didn't think they would be AWD/4x4, but since I didn't really look at them, I don't know that for a fact.
I didn't even look at the Lancer Evolution, since it is a Sedan (though a guy I talked to at the WRX wagon said he was impressed with it).
I did check out the Dodge Magnum (at least it is a wagon). The thing I noticed first was how small the windows looked, and I wondered about visibility. Of course, if you have that much horsepower, who cares about what is around you!
I didn't spend much time looking at the Pilot. It is very nice looking, seemed to have comfortable seats, but it seemed pricey for what you get. My other half dislikes Hondas in general so we didn't really check it out - maybe the reason I didn't spend much time looking at the Element.
I would love to hear other people's thoughts, especially about how they think that new Freelander compares with the rest of this list.
Among the most memorable were, "it looks about as aerodynamic as a parachute" which may be insulting to parachutes, "Well, on the upside, they can probably drive two bodies to the funeral at once now.", "It's a box." and "I never thought they'd build anything that would make the Aztec look good."
Those are the comments from Toyota's target audience of under 25's. Then again, I always thought my runners were pretty smart kids.
I think I know why I thought the Nissan Cube was so cute. It reminded me of the R4 Renault this really nice guy was driving when I met him 22 years ago in Germany (I don't think the R4 ever made it to the US. It was a VERY basic metal box on wheels). At the time I thought he was the greatest - in fact, I still do, even after 21 years of marriage...
Same story here, except it was a girl and I won't disclose how long ago...
Do you remember the gear lever on that thing? Probably was designed by a French cook who previously built rotisseries.
Boxy can be good and practical, if done in moderation (CR-V, Forester).
- D
It's funny that I don't think of the Forester as being particularly boxy, but it is. In fact, most of the SUVs on this list are pretty boxy. But not quite in the same way. Come to think of it, the Scout was a complete box also (and I used to think they were really cool too).
One last thing about the Scion that my husband said when we were looking at them. He said that they looked like the next taxi cab.
Steve, Host
As it turns out, according to the service rep, you cannot just go out and start up a VUE for a few seconds and then shut it off. Somehow this floods the engine, and to fix it all you have to do is hold the gas pedal to the floor and re-start. According to my wife's co-worker, the engine made a terrible sound when he did this "fix".
Has anyone else ever heard of such a thing? I'd expect this to be a common thing in the days of carbeurators, but not in this day and age.
I guess we now know why GM is buying a bunch of Honda engines to throw into the VUE for next year!
I don't think the engine in the VUE is very old though. Shouldn't the computer be able to stop that from happening since it, and not your right foot, controls the fuel injectors?
So it pretty much comes down to: no matter how sophisticated pacemaker is if somebody pinches your nose and shouts your mouth:))
-mike
As promised I am issuing a 10,000 mile update (car is 10 months old).
Well at 10,300 miles on our Pine Green Santa Fe GLS 4WD V6, its time for my promised objective review. So here goes:
5000 mile summary (I posted on this a while back, so I won't go into detail): At 469 miles the throttle position sensor failed and was
fixed with a one day visit to the dealer. Slight rust on wheel hub was replaced (no cost) with a 1-hour visit to the dealer.
Summary of 5000 to 10000 miles:
Catastrophic (life threataning) problems: none. I'm still alive!
Major problems (engine/tranny internals): none.
Significant problems (parts peripheral to the drivetrain): none
Minor problems: Clicking noise in belt driven components when cold. Dealer replaced belt-tensioner during regular oil-change. No inconvenience there.
Annoying things (I'll repeat these in brief, no additional items since 5000 miles):
STILL not REALLY enough driver leg room (I complained about it on my Lumina too!).
The "brow" of the window sits low and I have to bend my head to look at red lights when I'm first in line at the light! (I guess I'd better run more yellow lights!). Otherwise, head
room is fine.
The 12V power adapters run ONLY when the ignition is ON. I'm sure this is a safety feature.
Slight dash creak in colder weather (below 50 F) and on bumpy roads (which in PA is most roads!).
Slight whistle at very high speeds ( &) to *) MPH....encrypted to avoid state police spies! ;-0 ).
City gas mileage between 17-18, and Hyundai seems to acknowledge that on their 2003 stickers! Highway mileage (23 w/4WD) is right on, and maybe a bit conservative.
Cool things (again, repeated with the exception of the final item on the GREAT handling in the snow):
Rear cargo area is great. We've hauled a
coffee table and a 6 ft dogwood tree.
V6 is relatively quiet at cruising speed, which is why I wanted it. Power output is acceptable for the 4WD.
LOVE the light thing...you can leave the lights on and when you turn the ignition off the headlights go off and when you open the door the dash light turns off. When you get back in, it all goes in reverse. Like having daytime running
lights. A cool, unadvertised feature.
Seats are comfortable and firm (needs more legroom, didn't I mention that?!).
Interior is the BEST-designed of all the mini-SUVS.
Exterior is a tad overdone but not ugly.
Since I have driven the Santa Fe in TWO significant snowfalls recently (Dec 5 and Christmas), the performance in those conditions with ABS/Traction Control and AWD is .....
MAGNIFICENT!
All in all, we really like this car. Reliability-wise it has been no worse (and, mostly BETTER) than American cars we have owned. I thought Hyundai was a gamble but each day driving this vehicle confirms the fact that Hyundai is a real player in the market! If you've been afraid of buying a Hyundai, don't be. I hope this helped anyone looking. I'll hold off posting another review until about 20,000 miles unless other significant issues come up.
Dependability.. I know this will someday become a topic of the past. The Escape/Trib started out on a rough note. This has caused a severe uphill battle to take place. Get out on the net, find other chat rooms. You will find there are plenty of satisfied Escape/Tribute owners out here to calm your fears about dependability. I even took it upon myself to approach Escape/Trib owners and converse with them briefly about there experience with there vehicles. Models ranged from 00 to 03 ES/EX ,XLT/XLS/premium you name it... So far I am up to 22 owners and none have had any problems so severe it would make them change their minds about thier purchase or buying another Ford/Mazda product.
All in all, test drive and search for your own information... Good luck...
So far I am up to 22 owners and none have had any problems so severe it would make them change their minds about thier purchase or buying another Ford/Mazda product.
Americans settle for mediocraty all the time. Notice they didn't say they had trouble free cars. Same goes for the GM Triplets most people over in that forum (Envoy/Trailblazer/Bravada) will go on and on for 3 paragraphs about how their truck was at the dealer for 2 weeks diagnosing a problem several times, etc. etc. Then their last paragraph is "But I'd buy another one in a heartbeat" That is music to the manufacturer's ears. They can produce an inferior product by cutting corners and people will still fork over $20K or $30K or $40K for the vehicle, so what is their incentive to improve them?
-mike
Our 96' Civic had it's fair share of problems too, and I'd buy another one in a heart beat. All cars have problems, and in the case of the Civic, it's quality has diminished with the introduction of the latest iteration. Four or five recalls versus the two or three that our 96' had.
Based on my own experience (which admittedly is not as much as many others around here) and that of my family/friends, non-American made autos are no better than American made autos when it comes to those "little" problems like carseeker mentioned he had with his Santa Fe. You will see more horror stories, like dead engines and/or trannies, with American made autos but there are also two to three times more of them on the road based on sales.
Measuring reliability is in no way an exact science.
I've heard from at least 5/7 honda lovers I know that they won't buy another one because their late 90s and early 00s did not fare as well as their late 80s and early 90s accords... That IMO is good to show manufacturers that people won't put up with poor reliability.
-mike
You may want to look into after-market leather for the Forester. That is what I will probably do. Or wait what options will be available for the Forester Turbo. Hopefully we will know in a few weeks.
- D
"Americans settle for mediocraty" ?? Ever thought there are Ford/GM/Dodge owners that have never had any problems with their vehicles? Let me guess, your in the status quo mind set of anything made by GM/Ford or Dodge will break or is inferior...
-mike
On the other hand, I really rather enjoy driving a stick...
I've had mostly good luck with American cars and trucks, and wouldn't hesitate to buy one (even a Ford, though that is the one I had bad luck with). I've had as good luck with foreign cars, though I will say I really dislike my current Toyota. I've had only one repair on the Wrangler that cost much, and it wasn't the type to strand me anywhere. The Toyota has had several more problems that have come much closer to stranding me (one of them included a miserable trip from Vegas that required the heat to be on in 90 plus weather). So I don't think it matters whether you buy one of the Big 3 or not.
Some compare it to smaller utes, but look at the width - it's really a mid-sizer. It's also heavy but you do get a torquey V6 and side curtain air bags, low range, full-time AWD, etc.
Like I said, I haven't driven one, but if I wanted a traditional SUV then sure, I'd try one.
I did try an Outlander, and boy, Mitsu has a patent on "slow". The engine is grossly underpowered and screams just to keep up. NVH control was very bad. Materials were very cheap, though at least they were assembled with care. They emphasize passenger space more than cargo space, sort of the opposite of the Forester.
But it's disappointing because it's new and does not offer anything unique. That it only comes with an automatic and it underpowered, yet doesn't really carry a price advantage, dooms it in my eyes. Thumbs down.
-juice
-mike
It's true that not everyone wants a race car like scape, but even far fewer want an SUV to go off-road with.
There is someone here at work who bought an Outlander and loves it. The reviews and comments here about how underpowered it is would knock it out for my uses. I'm not real crazy about going uphill in the Taco in 4th gear at 70 mph, so I know I would HATE driving something that kept hunting between gears and not being able to maintain speed on my way home...
Bagge32- Thanks for starting out my morning with a good laugh :(o)
-Frank P.
It's true that not everyone wants a race car like scape, but even far fewer want an SUV to go off-road with.
This is true, but if you read my comment it said "different strokes for different folks". Was just commenting that not everything for everyone is HP-to-weight ratios.
-mike
I agreed, and added that even fewer care about off-road ability which is often used in comparing vehicles around here.
Someone's got to help scape out every now and then.
I am getting ready to purchase the Saturn Vue with a sunroof as one of my accessories. They are trying to sell me the sunroof air deflector, does anyone have a Vue with a sunroof? If so, what do you think?..do I actually need one or what?
Thank you for your help.