Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

bess

In many regions that get snow, enough ground clearance (to avoid pushing the snow), decent tires, front wheel drive and reasonable driving habits is a safe and effective option. Why deal with the extra cost, maintenance, increased weight, reduced mpgs, for an option that I don't need?

Our Escape (as with 98% of everyone elses) will never see any true off-roading. (I don't count the dirt road I live on as 'off-road').

So it is a valid question of why did I want or need a mini-SUV in the first place.. The short answer is because we liked the performance, seat height, exterior look, brand and price of the Escape over the other alternative vehicle types (larger suvs, station wagons, sedans, mini-vans etc).

A natural counter to the statement:
"why would someone buy an SUV with only 2wd?" is

"why buy a 4wd when you don't need it?"

odie6l

But what about when that 'Dirt' road becomes a 'Muddy' road.

I've already taken my escape as far as I want to venture off road... but they were trails made and tested with many different vehicles in mind. and I've seen some strenge vehicles out there, AMC eagle's, Bronco 2's, jeeps (all types), Hummer's, all the Ford E's (Explorer's, Escape's, Excursion's, etc. etc), F-100's, F-150'2, F-250's, F-350's, Subaru Brat's, Forester's, Outback's, etc etc etc.
Next time I go up..I'll snap some pictures to post.

Odie

scape2

I have had my Escape 4WD in the snow, on logging access roads in the rain/mud whatever and its done just fine. I needed 4WD because I skii, I also needed towing ability because of my 2 jet skiis. The Escape fit my needs to a "T". Acceleration/power, towing, handling worked goof for me..
This offroad ability stuff is getting way out of hand. Over 95 percent of people in 4x4's, AWD whatever you wish to call them will never see much less a dirt road... One word.. Image....

diploid

I wonder if automakers didn't make an "AWD" badge for its AWD models, would people still buy them?

My Rav4 has AWD - I don't plan on taking it off-road (although it does come with skidplates). I bought it for security in inclement weather.

luca1

My Liberty is a 4x2. I live in south Orange county CA and felt I had no need for 4x4. However, I am thinking of getting a Wrangler just for the fun of being able to do some off roading. My Liberty would be for everyday and the Wrangler, strictly for fun on the weekends.

wendy

paisan

Are they metal or plastic?

-mike

mtngal

Get the Wrangler and enjoy the desert around you (didn't realize you were from SoCal). Even head for the snow - that's the white stuff on the tops of the mountains around you. Sorry for joshing you about that - as a former resident of LA County, and current resident of the Kern County mountains, I understand. And there is certainly a bunch of snow right now!

Out of curiosity, why did you decide on the Liberty, since you don't have need for the 4WD? I really am interested in what attracted you to the Liberty over the other vehicles in this group. I know why I'm still thinking about it, along with the Subies, but then I have a real need for AWD.

anonymous02

"...Whatever little snow we got was easily handled by RWD with decent snow tires."

For sure!

"When I moved to Phila I had a RWD with studded snow tires that were great. The state thought they tore up the roads so they outlawed them for all but emergency vehicles."

Check out http://www.high-tec-retreading.com/diamond.html

"...a world of difference between RWD and FWD. Enough to affect the purchase of a car to account for winter driving."

I thought so for a while, but based on my experiences, and tire stores' advice, nothing beats good snow tires.

diploid

paisan - They're metal; steel to be more precise.

jimbob17

anony2- Thanks for the link.
I still remember when the law was passed that studs tore up the road and didn't really provide any more grip than regular tires BUT only emergency vehicles were allowed to use them???
I took the two tires up to the apartment and during one of the football games I used a tile cutter to pull the studs out of my snow tires.
I think a year later they made them legal again from (I believe) November thru April.

luca1

I tested and researched almost all of the vehicles in this category. The Forester just didn't do it for me. Hard to explain, but I didn't like the way it drove. I saw the Santa Fe at an auto show, and I didn't like the styling or the interior. I drove the Tribute and came close to buying one. My Dad always liked the Grand Cherokee and so did I, but it was a bit bigger than I had a need for. I liked the Xterra, but wasn't real fond of the handling. The Liberty just sort of had everything I wanted. I have friends in Central CA and sometimes the roads can get a bit hairy and I wanted to have enough ground clearance over some off the rough spots. The need for a 4x4 didn't seem necessary since my 4x2 Liberty handles the roads I need to travel on. I guess I have go on a bit, but I have been very happy with my choice. Now I have a couple of friends with Wranglers and I find I enjoy off roading. I don't think I'd want to do that sort of driving with a Liberty even though I know those who do.

wendy

mtngal

Thanks for your opinion. I was curious why someone would choose the Liberty with only 2WD. I want to replace the 2WD Taco with another 4x4/AWD - I got the Wrangler only to off-road with before we moved to the mountains. Now that we've been up here a couple of years we find it pretty limiting, and the Wrangler spends more time on the freeway than it does in the dirt. An example is tomorrow - we are going to spend Christmas with relatives in Vegas. The Taco gets much better mileage, so we would normally drive it tomorrow. However, it is still covered with snow, the driveway is now somewhat icy and I have serious doubts that the Taco would get out.

I keep debating the advantages and disadvantages of the Subies (probably the Outback or a WRX rather than a Forester) vs. the Liberty. They are really apples and oranges, but that's what it looks like it is coming down to. So I'm interested in why others made their decisions the way they did.

luca1

A friend of mine just bought a WRX. I'll have to ask him how it's been for him. He lives in the Austin area of Texas. He's only had it a short while, so I'm not sure how much he drives. Do the Subies have ground clearance to take care of any snow in your driveway?

wendy

anonymous02

#3626 awd, fwd, and rwd yet again by jimbob17
"anony2- Thanks for the link.
I still remember when the law was passed that studs tore up the road and didn't really provide any more grip than regular tires BUT only emergency vehicles were allowed to use them???"


Why would they (emergency vehicles) want to use them then, if they didn't provide more grip? Hmmm, sounds fishy to me. (SOME pigs are more equal!)

anonymous02

You neglected to mention that the Wrangler also rides better than your Toyota.

;-)

Merry Christmas everyone!!!

paisan

Glad to see it has metal skid plates std. Not even the liberty IIRC comes with them std. (only in package)

-mike

mtngal

LOL! Yes, for the most part the Wrangler rides better than the Taco (though it is noisier).

While the WRX doesn't have the ground clearance of the others, it shouldn't have that much problem. And if it looks too much for the WRX I could always drive the Wrangler. If the Wrangler can't make it out, then I get an unexpected day off from work!

diploid

I think it's a little silly to even have them, though. I would've preferred std A/C.

paisan

Std AC over skid plates is a good idea. Skid plates are helpful though especially on a FWD based vehicle to protect that tranny pan.

-mike

steve281

Hi guys, Hi Juice,

Opinions about the Sorrento? I really like the Forester, but despite its wonderful handling and crash tests within its weight category came to the conclusion- confirmed by a safety study
done by engineers that I'll be safer in a larger vehicle. I live in Colorado and probably won't go offroad, but do some crosscountry skiing and hiking in the mountains and mostly drive around town. The Highlander was appealing, but on one of these boards its AWD was criticized, so I'm concerned about it. What are your opinions of the Sorrento for handling, safety, overall and in particular how good is its 4WD, with Torque on demand, which apparently can be left on dry pavement- how well would that fare in this envoirnment compared to Subies, Highlanders, etc.

Thanks
Steve

paisan

Test Drove one. They totally Rock, for the money. The TOD is great (I have it on my Trooper) and I really like the value that the Sorrento w/Luxury Package gives you. The 3.5L engine has been good for 2 years in the Sedona and so far over on the Edmunds 'Sorento Problems' board on here the biggest problem is the antennas on the remote keyless entry.

If you want to know more about the TOD just ask and I'll tell you all about it.

-mike

anonymous02

If you want handling, and don't go offroad much, you MIGHT be better off looking elsewhere. That said, the Sorento seems nice, but it is more truck than car from what I've read, and that probably means handling is more truck than car also. This is a plus off road, but on road "handling" might not be what you're looking for. Gas mileage is not too great either. Also, I sat in one, and my head brushed the ceiling while on the lot. I can only imagine hitting my head on road bumps and smashing my head off road. This was with a sunroof. Not sure what it is like without sunroof. I'm 6' .75" tall.

Have you looked at Vue? Axiom? Sounds like from your description the Escape or others in THIS group might do you better.

paisan

FYI the Axiom is a full-truck frame just like the Sorento.

-mike

anonymous02

But I figured if he (she?) is overlooking that on the Sorento, the Axiom might be a contender also.

mtngal

Has anyone tested the Outlander? I saw one on the road yesterday for the first time (it zoomed past me on the I15 near Barstow while I was driving the Wrangler) and rather liked the looks as it flew past. I read the early car reviews which said it was underpowered, so hadn't considered it before. Since I don't have the same requirements or viewpoints of most car reviewers, I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experience with it. Maybe I should take the time to check it out.

ken_from_nj

i know edmunds is doing a long term road test on this vehicle, see

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/longterm/articles/81544/article.html

mtngal

I hadn't noticed that they had added it to their fleet (I haven't been keeping as close an eye recently). It'll be fun to see what everyone says about it. Though the fact that it is a 4 cylinder with only an auto tranny may makes it less interesting for me, with the huge altitude changes in my commute.

steve281

Thankyou for your feedback gentlemen,

Working in an er and dealing with car accident victims I care less about other factors such as handling, even mileage compared with safety- none of those three vehicles offered side curtain airbags, and 2 of them weighed a good 800 lbs less than Sorrento. My primary question is regarding 4WD safety- Even though I won't go offroad, in Colorado I will drive in mountains and encounter surprise on-road ice, and sudden
weather changes- will the TOD be as effective to prevent skids as the fulltime 4WD in the Nissan Pathfinder, or the Ford Explorer- two rivals of that size- or for that matter the AWD in the Subaru Outback and Hyandai Sante FE? I assume the Highlander AWD is subpar and also assume
I'd be better off buying the Sorrento with the TOD rather than the other models and putting the 4WD on 6 months of the year on paved roads so that I'm not suddenly surprised with skids. Correct?
Is there a gap during which I can skid before the
power is sent to the front wheels with the TOD?
Would I be safer with a vehicle that is fulltime
AWD or FWD which then sends power to the remaining wheels as opposed to a RWD like Sorrento?
Thanks so much
Steve

paisan

Anytime you are going >5mph there is 15% power directed to the front wheels. On my Trooper I have a little guage that tells me what % power is going to which axle. In the winter I generally keep it in TOD all the time to prevent skids in the event of sudden ice or snow patches. It only takes a 1mpg hit in milage for this. Since there is that 15% min. power going to the front there is never slippage of the rears before the power is moved forward.

The Subaru AWD on the AT cars is very similar in reaction to the TOD units, except they are 80%/20% split rather than 15/85 as an initial starting point. Both use weight sensors to detect shifts in weight (to transfer power to the axle with more traction).

Most of the Subarus have a rear LSD to move power left<->right on the rear axle. The TOD equipped vehicles also have a rear LSD.

The ford Explorer no longer has an AWD option IIRC. They have Auto-4wd, which does not come into play until there is wheel slippage detected, so you have to skid in order to get power to switch axles. Not sure about the pathfinder system I think that one is 50/50 split initially, similar to the Jeep full-time systems.

-mike

steve281

Dear Paisan,

Thanks so much- it sounds like the Sorrento may be up with the wonderful Subarus traction safety,
and the Explorer is not? Any confirmation of the
shortcomings on the Highlander? For my purposes will I need to get the model with the TOD- and
use that all the time in winter on paved roads, or will sometimes a 4wd high or low setting be better in snow/ice? Final question- any clue on the traction quality of the Volvo S60 or V70 in comparison

Thanks so much again, sounds like Sorrento is the ticket
Steve

paisan

I believe the highlander uses a Viscous Center Differential which is much like the 5MT on the Subarus. It is a 50/50 split and will vary from there as needed. No weight or ECU sensors to pre-emtively re-distribute power (since it's 100% mechanical).

For your purposes the TOD is a much better choice than the Part-time 4wd since most of your driving is done on-road rather than off-road/snow covered roads. I'm imagining that you drive on well cleaned and salted/treated roads but there are occassions where there is an untreated section of a turn onto a side-road that has been uncleared. This is where a full-time/dry-time All-wheel drive system comes into perfect play. With a Part-time system you'd need to anticipate each time there will be a loss of traction, and engage the 4wd at the very moment you hit the area of reduced traction.

S60/V70 not sure what kind of system they use, my guess is that it's electronically controlled, but not sure if it's 100/0 like the CRV/Escape systems or if there is some power to the rear at all times like the Highlander/TOD/Subaru systems.

-mike

steve281

Thanks Paisan,

Can anyone give me confirmation about shortcomings in the Highlander/Lexus AWD- I remember some criticism of it in an earlier forum where someone made a comment that it "would not be adequate to find a parking space in a ski-resort." I like the Highlander other than that,
but could not afford to chance that type of poor performance in Colorado- how would it stack up against Sorrento/others?

thanks
Steve

rob1956

I have read quite a few posts on full vs part-time AWD systems and understand the difference. As a 1998 Forester owner I have been quite impressed with the AWD capabilities. However, without traction control or a limited-slip rear diff. you can get in trouble if your vehicle is on side hill as powere will go to the wheels with the least traction left to right. I am considering a new vehicle either the Forester with the rear LSD or the Santa Fe with traction control. Several questions: 1) Does the Santa Fe's traction control work on both front and rear? 2) In general, how does traction control compare to LSD in effectiveness?

anonymous02

I think of LSD as an additive thing (adds traction) while the "traction control" is a subtractive thing (removes power).

Of course, this is a generalization and there are exceptions.

homer61388

Out of all these mini-suv's I would look at either the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute or the Hyundai Santa Fe. The Ford or Mazda offers superior power (V6) and handling when compared to the rest of the group. The liberty (V6)also offers a punchy engine and good handling but after all that talk about how it is really prone to roll-overs much more so that other suv's that kinda scared me away from the liberty. I read reports about how even during simple slalom tests the Liberty would tip. I also feared for the tranny, because chrysler has had a history for building lousy trannys, but the new 7-year powertrain warranty calmed my nerves. The gas mileage isn't great either but it's rather crappy with the V6 in the Mazda/ford too.

I'm not wild about the subaru, the engine is a carry-over and prices can soar depending on how much you load onto it. I personally like the hyundai. You have got to give credit to the Korean car companies for finally getting on their feet reliability wise. The reliability should match the American cars or beat them and with the incredible warranty, hyundai excels even more, pretty much cancelling out any headaches that might occur during ownership. The V6 engine falls about average in the group, it excels past all the 4-cylinders and falls just short of the V6's in the ford and the jeep. It's a smoothie too. Cargo Capacity is better than all of them, there is plenty of room in this mini-ute. The suspension easily absorbs bumps but there is a trade off in handling where the hyundai's suspension is too soft to be anything more than a mini-ute. But most of all you can't beat the price. Heated seats and leather for under 25 grand! Ok, the quality might not be up to the toyotas or the hondas but this car is hard to fault. Most people criticize its styling but I like it.

The Saturn View...I checked out and I didn't like its styling, the gray moldings and bumpers looked somewhat cheap. I may be a little against Saturn to begin with because I owned a Saturn s-series and it was the biggest pain the butt. Everything went wrong on that car. The tranny, tires, brakes, struts, and the engine all made me turn the car into the shop. The 3.0 V6 engine is a plus though. I wasn't wild about the quality on the interior either.

Sorry for writing you a full-page report but I just recently test drove all these cars because my wife is looking for a new suv. This was what I thought of all of them.

xccoachlou

Homer,

The Hyundai weighs in at 3752 lbs and generates 173 HP @ 6000 RPM. (21.68 lbs/HP or 0.046 HP/lb)

The Subaru Forester weighs in at 3175 lbs and the engine generates 165 HP @ 5600 RPM. (19.24 lbs/HP or 0.052 HP/lb).

Advantage to the Subaru. Also the boxer engine is an extremely tough, durable, engine. Also the Subaru did very well in crash tests.

Edmunds TMV on the leather Forester XS with sunroof is $24,298. The TMV on the Santa Fe, with sun roof is $24,122.

To each his own, but my choice would be the Forester.

paisan

Not sure if you are buying for the long term, but I'd shy away from the Mazda/Ford if you are in it for the long haul. FWD Fords don't have the best reliability records. If it's a lease, have a ball since it will be someone else's problem once you turn it in.

The Forester is quite dependable and tough, I've actually off-roaded with several Forester Owners and can attest to their off-road-worthyness. Never saw an Escape/Tribute on the trail.

-mike

mtngal

I liked the Santa Fe but didn't like the auto tranny in the V6 for my purposes. If I were a flatlander, I might get one, but I'm not, so I won't.

I wasn't crazy about the Escape's interior, and I wonder about the tranny Ford uses. I have nothing solid to base that on except for a couple of mountain people I know with Explorer tranny problems, so I could be unfair to the Escape.

I know a number of mountain people with various Subarus and they don't seem to have problems. I know someone (a flatlander) who just bought an Outlander and loves it.

One of my mountain friends has a Vue and still loves it (she doesn't commute any place, so she doesn't worry about getting snowed in). This is her second Saturn and she is delighted with the Vue's extra space and capability.

scape2

the Escapes interior is supposed to be much improved. I agree this is a weak point for the Escape. The Escape/Tribute with the V6 just cannot be beat for power/handling.
Jeep may offer more towing ability and better offroad ability.. but for handling/street driving I'll bet my pink slip on the Escape/Trib.
I have had my Escape deep in snow, to logging/access roads and it does just fine. The Extra power/Torque of the V6 give you the confidence and ability to pull the vehicle around and get out of tough spots. Granted, its no Jeep or Xterra, but for the everyday snow trip to accesss/logging road any of the Escapes, Tribs, CRV's, RAV4's whatever will get you there just fine.
As far as reliablity, I guess it all depends on what you want to believe. My 01 has 19,000 trouble free miles. The Escape/Trib had a rough start and is going to pay the price for years to come. This vehicle is fighing an uphill battle. I feel this vehicle gets a bad rap. I have approached at least 20 or more owners of Escapes/Tribs of all types of years/models and have yet to run into an owner that has had any "reliability" issues.

nmcelvan

i just bought an '03 escape (oct 02) and have driven it 5200 miles. looked at a couple of 02's and thought the interior of the 03's much improved. got the premium cloth seats, not leather. so i think the 'cheap interior' complaint has been pretty well addressed.

so far, no problems and i really like 'the rig.' i live in and drive in vermont mountains with many unpaved roads and have found handling on winter terrain to be great - snow, ice, unmaintained secondary roads, mountain passes, etc. this is usually in the automatic awd setting. switching to 4wd makes it even better.
thought i'd add my two cents worth to the discussion.

scape2

for your input on the Escape/Trib 03 interior. I would be the first to admit my 01 interior could be a tad bit better quality. When I was in the market I thought at the time the Liberty had the nicest interior in this class. I had a hard time in trying to make a decision between the Liberty and the Escape. What won me over was I just couldn't get past the round headlights and secondly I felt the V6 in the Escape was much more responsive. But its all in what you like...
Congrats on your 03 Escape..

mtngal

I'd be interested in hearing how you do with your Escape throughout the winter and also the summer. If they have improved the interior it might be worth a second look for me (I can't buy until April at the earliest, and it will probably be summer or fall before I can really swing it a new car). Can yours maintain 70 mph going up steep grades? Does it hunt between gears trying to do that? I managed to burn out a Nissan pickup tranny because of all the hunting and shifting it did on my daily commute (I don't count the first one that went, just the one that died a year and 40,000 miles after it was put in).

scape2 - how many miles do you have on yours now? I know yours has been trouble-free, and was wondering how many miles it has now.

Went car looking today, since all the dealerships were closed. I liked the looks of the Sorento, the Outlander is even more station wagonish than the Forester but still nice, I really don't like the styling of the Matrix, and the Honda dealer had no Pilots on their lot - only one Passport and lots of CRVs.

p0926

Homer61388- Some of your points about the Liberty are valid but I think you're blowing the rollover thing totally out of pro-portion. Only in one test did a Liberty tip up. No one else was able to replicate that result and since then, Jeep has slightly widened the track. Bottom line is that any tall SUV type vehicle is going to be more prone to roll-overs than virtually any car. Of course in this group, the Forester with it's lower CG boxer engine is the least prone :-)

-Frank P.

paisan

They actually lowered it by 1.5"

Like Frank said it was one test. I bet that DC didn't make the required greasing of the CR tester's palm for the Liberty to fail. If you drive an SUV like a sports car (even the Forester) you will roll it.

-mike

tincup47

Actually it was Autoweek that rolled the Liberty, not CR.

rsholland

about a year or so ago.

Bob

paisan

Autoweek didn't get their payoff, maybe DC didn't do enough advertising? hee hee

-mike

rsholland

<< Autoweek didn't get their payoff, maybe DC didn't do enough advertising? >>

can always count on Mike to invoke the "conspiracy theory clause"...

Bob

paisan

"they" are out to get the little guys!!

-mike

suvshopper4

Some guys over on "IDLS,WDY?" thread are saying you are from Brooklyn!
Talk about a conspiracy.